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zebu
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« on: August 01, 2005, 03:00:59 PM »

Yesterday I went to my first Divine Liturgy ever(BTW, it was amazing and it made me want to just join the Orthodox Church right now!) and there were a few things I didn't quite understand.  Maybe someone here could clarify?  First, next to the blessed bread(I think it is called antidoron), they put out a tray with little plastic cups of wine.  What's the deal with that? I had read things mentioning blessed bread, but not wine in little plastic cups.  Was it extra Eucharistic wine? Was it blessed wine that anyone could take? Is putting out wine in little plastic cups a normal practice? Secondly, I thought women were not allowed to be Readers, but maybe I was wrong.  Both the readers were women.  Is it just in certain jurisdictions that women can't be readers?  Then, what do they mean when they use the word "dread" in things like "...vouchsafe unto us to partake of Thy heavenly and dread Mysteries..."? I just don't understand why the sacraments should be dreaded.  Then lastly, I had to leave the liturgy after exactly an hour and a half because my dad had to go to work.  The things I had read on the internet said the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom was about 1.5 hours, but they still had a lot of stuff left to do when we left! So then, my question is, how long does the Divine Liturgy really take?  I guess what I read on the internet was wrong.

Thank you for your answers.
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2005, 04:14:33 PM »

In some traditions a wine "chaser" is also given after communion with the antiduron. Not all traditions do this. It is altar wine.

The divine liturgy was translated into English, I believe, in the early 20th century. At the time the common English usage in a liturgical setting (i.e. Episcopalian) was King James English.  Others may correct me if I am wrong. Obviously  English usage has changed since King James' times.  In sum the liturgy has not been updated since that time.

Women readers are permitted in my church (Antiochian). I do not know about other jurisdictions.

Finally, the liturgy can vary in length, but 1.5 hours is about average. There are times of the year when additional prayers are offered.

Hope this helps
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2005, 04:50:02 PM »

The wine offered with the antidoron is blessed, but not consecrated, it is not sacramental Communion.
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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2005, 05:02:48 PM »

I've never heard of the zapivka being served in little individual cups before - sounds a little "germophobic" to me...  Huh
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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2005, 05:04:06 PM »

In some traditions a wine "chaser" is also given after communion with the antiduron. Not all traditions do this. It is altar wine.
I like that..a "chaser"... Grin  This is actually 50/50 wine and warm water, but yes, that's basically how it functions - something extra to "wash" the communion down.

(editing my post) Yeah, little plastic cups looks cheezy.  They are usually these measuring cup-shaped metal cups or glass cups. 

Women readers are permitted in my church (Antiochian). I do not know about other jurisdictions.
This is incorrect.  Any lay person, male or female, can read the Epistle, although it is usually preferable to have at least tonsured reader (sometimes even a sub-Deacon or Deacon) do this.  Tonsured readers wear black robes, but as they are actually a lower "clergy" order, they can only be male.  Even though the person "reading" the Epistle may be a lay person, they are not necessarily a "Reader".

Finally, the liturgy can vary in length, but 1.5 hours is about average. There are times of the year when additional prayers are offered.

Yup.  On the short/express service end, around 1.25 hrs and 2 hours or more on the long end.  Usually anything that would last >2 hrs would be a Hierarchical Divne Liturgy (Bishop(s) present - some things are added and others done slightly differently).
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« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2005, 05:09:44 PM »

I'm glad things went so well for you Smiley  As was said, the cups had blessed wine but not consecrated wine. It's blessed for Christian use and therefore not just like regular wine, but it's not a sacrament either. As to whether you can take it, that probably depends on your parish. Blessed things (e.g., antidoran--the bread they have on the table) used to be only for Orthodox Christians. Somewhere along the way, it started getting given to non-Orthodox. I'd say, just do what everyone else does. If you see people taking some that you know aren't Orthodox yet, or if people offer some bread to you, then go ahead and take some if you want.

Regarding women readers, from what I understand, traditionally men are preferred as readers to women, though not for any particularly profound reasons. As with the blessed bread/wine, it's not a huge deal. Just go with whatever they are doing in the parish. Regarding the word dread, they mean to use it in the old way that it was used, when it meant awe-filling or reverence-filling. So, we sometimes speak of the "dread judgment seat of Christ," meaning that we reverence and are in awe of God, not that we fear him per se. We Orthodox tend to throw in old words like that, your best bet is to check out a site like dictionary.com, which usually gives an older (ie. archaic) meaning if there is one. Another example would be the word "magnify," which we sometimes use regarding saints and the Virgin Mary (Theotokos). In our case, we mean "to glorify or praise," and not to make bigger or clearer or something like that.

Regarding the time of the Liturgy, it will vary from place to place. It depends on many factors... what parts are taken out or insterted, how fast the priest does his part, whether the choir responses overlap the petitions of the priest, etc. I've been in St. John Chrysostom liturgies that lasted an hour and ten minutes, and then I've been in some that lasted an hour and forty-five minutes. If it is a hierarchal liturgy or St. James, St. Basil etc. you also have to expect a longer time.

Justin

PS. Only trust half of what you read on the internet. And only half trust the other half. That advice is applicable to this post. The best person to ask questions is the priest of the parish you are attending, because then even if he gives (factually speaking) a "wrong" answer, it is still the answer that you see put into practice Smiley

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« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2005, 05:54:08 PM »

Thanks for your responses everyone. 

Quote
Tonsured readers wear black robes, but as they are actually a lower "clergy" order, they can only be male.  Even though the person "reading" the Epistle may be a lay person, they are not necessarily a "Reader".
Well, the women reading the epistle and prokeimenon were not in robes, so I guess they were not tonsured Readers then. 

Quote
Regarding the time of the Liturgy, it will vary from place to place. It depends on many factors... what parts are taken out or insterted, how fast the priest does his part, whether the choir responses overlap the petitions of the priest, etc. I've been in St. John Chrysostom liturgies that lasted an hour and ten minutes, and then I've been in some that lasted an hour and forty-five minutes. If it is a hierarchal liturgy or St. James, St. Basil etc. you also have to expect a longer time
I guess it could have been a hierarchal Divine Liturgy since it was a Cathedral, though the booklet I took from the liturgy(I am not really sure if I should have taken it but...) doesn't say anything about it being hierarchal, but you never know. Does anyone know where I could find the Hierarchal liturgy online to compare with the service booklet from the church? But then again, I only remember one instance of over-lapping and the choir seemed to be singing really slowly(though maybe that was the normal speed for Orthodox services, since I have nothing to compare it too...).


Oh, and I just remembered something else.  From what I have read, the Orthodox believe that the communion becomes the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ at the Epiclesis, not at "This is my body....this is by blood..." like Catholics and some Protestants.  So then what I was wondering, which part of the liturgy is the Epiclesis?

I just have to say again how much I loved the Divine Liturgy.  I don't know if what I am about to say makes much sense, but what I liked most about it was that it just WAS, it wasn't like at my church where I have to try really hard to get myself to a semi-forced spiritual state, it was just all right there.  Also I liked how non-judgemental it was, it wasn't like my church where people stare at new people and in their minds, judge them.  Seriously, sometime I should tell y'all about the first time a black person came to our church, but to get back on topic, I loved the Divine Liturgy because it just felt perfect.  After services at my church, I always feel like something is missing, but at the Orthodox Church it just felt complete and like everything was truly as God wanted it to be.  Unfortunately, I don't know when I'll get to go again as my dad REALLY didn't like Divine Liturgy and since I don't drive yet, I have no other way to get there.  And there is no chance in heck that my mom would ever take me to a non-Protestant church of any kind...
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« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2005, 06:00:34 PM »

Quote
This is actually 50/50 wine and warm water, but yes, that's basically how it functions - something extra to "wash" the communion down.

You guys get to "wash down" the Communion with wine? They only give us water at the Coptic Church, how cheap! I'm going to have to consult my priest about this...

Peace.
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« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2005, 06:17:49 PM »

You guys get to "wash down" the Communion with wine? They only give us water at the Coptic Church, how cheap! I'm going to have to consult my priest about this...

Peace.

Yeah!  You tell 'em!   Wink
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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2005, 06:24:45 PM »

Thanks for your responses everyone. 
... Unfortunately, I don't know when I'll get to go again as my dad REALLY didn't like Divine Liturgy and since I don't drive yet, I have no other way to get there.  And there is no chance in heck that my mom would ever take me to a non-Protestant church of any kind...


Zebu,
Was there a bishop present? A guy with candlesticks and a funny round hat? If not, it wasn't a hierarchal divine liturgy, and if you got to see Communion, then the end of the Liturgy was about 20 minutes away.
What was singing slowly was most likely the Cherubic Hymn. It it sung very slowly and is part of a dialogue between priest and people that is the eucharistic prayer called the Anaphora. The Epiclesis is this :

    "We offer to Thee this reasonable and unbloody sacrifice; and we beg Thee, we ask Thee, we pray Thee that Thou, sending down Thy Holy Spirit on us and on these present gifts"
    (the Deacon says: "Bless, Lord, the holy bread")
    "make this bread into the Precious Body of Thy Christ"
    (Deacon: "Amen. Bless, Lord, the holy chalice"):
    "and that which is in this chalice, the Precious Blood of Thy Christ"
    (Deacon: "Amen. Bless, Lord, both"),
    "changing them by Thy Holy Spirit"
    (Deacon: "Amen, Amen, Amen.")

Sometimes said aloud, with the people making the replies of the deacon, sometimes said silently, not audible outside the altar.

Hope thta helps...
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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2005, 06:57:40 PM »

You guys get to "wash down" the Communion with wine? They only give us water at the Coptic Church, how cheap! I'm going to have to consult my priest about this...

Peace.

As an alcoholic, I've been trying to get my OCA parish to start offering a seperate cup with water only!
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« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2005, 07:01:33 PM »

You don't, of course, have to drink it if you do not wish to. People who carry their babies up there rarely give them the wine, if anything...you don't NEED to "wash it down." The antidoron and blessed wine is more than just a chaser.
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« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2005, 09:58:01 PM »

I don't drink it, I just hold the cup up to my lips and pretend to, so as not to draw attention to myself.
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« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2005, 10:24:16 PM »

Amazing! In my 56 years as on Orthodox Christian I have never seen cups of wine/water for this purpose.
Live & learn...
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« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2005, 10:34:36 PM »

There are a number people at my church who do not partake of the zapivka, they just take some of the antidoran and some even skip the both of them. If you chose to just refrain from the zapivka, I doubt that it would matter to anyone and I'll bet the only person who would notice would be the altar server who has to keep refilling the cup.  Wink

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« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2005, 10:36:47 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=6795.msg89122#msg89122 date=1122949456]
Amazing! In my 56 years as on Orthodox Christian I have never seen cups of wine/water for this purpose.
Live & learn...
[/quote]

I believe that only churches of Slavic backgrounds have the tradition of partaking of the warmed wine after receiving Communion - just like kissing the chalice. I've never seen either in an Antiochian or Greek church.

In Christ,
Aaron
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« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2005, 10:51:54 PM »

I never seen it in Serbian Church either! (then again Serbs get blind on Sljivovica 20 minutes later).
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« Reply #17 on: August 01, 2005, 11:44:56 PM »

im not too keen on drinking from the cup. i mean theres a lot of germs on it.
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« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2005, 05:36:34 AM »

I believe that only churches of Slavic backgrounds have the tradition of partaking of the warmed wine after receiving Communion - just like kissing the chalice. I've never seen either in an Antiochian or Greek church.

In Christ,
Aaron

Thanks.
I see that the Serbs do not do this nor have I seen this in any Carpatho-Russian parish.
Wonder about the Romanians and Georgians?
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« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2005, 06:12:01 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=6795.msg89151#msg89151 date=1122975394]
Thanks.
I see that the Serbs do not do this nor have I seen this in any Carpatho-Russian parish.
Wonder about the Romanians and Georgians?
[/quote]

Well, I've never seen it in a Romanian church, but that doesn't necessarily mean that no Romanians do this. One thing I've learnt from my Transylvanian godmother is that local customs can vary an awful lot even within the Romanian church.

James
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« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2005, 07:15:29 AM »

Only trust half of what you read on the internet. And only half trust the other half. That advice is applicable to this post. The best person to ask questions is the priest of the parish you are attending, because then even if he gives (factually speaking) a "wrong" answer, it is still the answer that you see put into practice Smiley

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« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2005, 04:08:18 PM »

Quote
Was there a bishop present? A guy with candlesticks and a funny round hat? If not, it wasn't a hierarchal divine liturgy
I guess it wasn't a hierarchal Divine Liturgy then as there was no guy with candlesticks and a funny round hat...And thanks for the information about the Epiclesis.  At the parish I went to, they spoke that part very loudly and the people practically screamed the Deacon's responses.  They were quite enthusiastic about it, which was really nice.  Imagine! People not only paying attention to the liturgy but also shouting their response, they're so enthralled. Quite a change from my Episcopal church where a lot of people don't really care about the liturgy and  don't even say the responses at all, and if they do, just kind of mumble them.

Quote
then again Serbs get blind on Sljivovica 20 minutes later
I'm confused...What's slijivovica??

There has to be some reason for the antidoron and zapkiva other than just "washing down the communion". Anyone mind telling me what that reason/significance is? 


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« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2005, 04:26:18 PM »

Quote
There has to be some reason for the antidoron and zapkiva other than just "washing down the communion". Anyone mind telling me what that reason/significance is?

Hi zebu Smiley

From what I was taught about the antidoran and zapkiva after communion, its purpose is to make sure that all of the particles of the Eucharist are consumed and there are none lurking still in your mouth. So you chew the antidoran and take a sip of the zapkiva in order to swallow any particles of the Eucharist that were left behind in your mouth. I personally only take antidoran and chew it well, since I feel it achieves this goal just as fine alone as with the zapkiva.

In Christ,
Donna Mary
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« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2005, 04:36:36 PM »

I'm confused...What's slijivovica??

Sljivovica... Serbian thirst quencher (I've heard some Serbs drink quite a lot of it), although I'm not speaking from experience (said with fingers firmly crossed behind my back).
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« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2005, 04:42:42 PM »

Quote
I'm confused...What's slijivovica??

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« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2005, 07:49:37 PM »

The antidoron is blessed bread, and is both a remnant of the agape meal shared after worship in ancient times, and came to "substitute" for taking Eucharist home with you and partaking throughout the week. This was done in ancient times, but abuses of the Holy Eucharist began when people took it home with them, so the antidoron was distributed for consumption throughout the week instead.
there;s more detail here, but thats the shortnsweet.
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« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2005, 07:54:45 PM »

im not too keen on drinking from the cup. i mean theres a lot of germs on it.

And the chalice?
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« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2005, 10:16:15 PM »

I believe that only churches of Slavic backgrounds have the tradition of partaking of the warmed wine after receiving Communion - just like kissing the chalice. I've never seen either in an Antiochian or Greek church.

The practice still takes place in the Greek monastery Churches, and in some Parishes here in Australia.
In Greek Parish Churches on Saturday evening and the eve of Great Feasts, there is sometimes also plain kollyva, dried bread and a bowl of wine for dipping in the Narthex as a "singhoria"- partaking of which signifies forgiveness of the living and the dead- (a much later custom).
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« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2005, 11:22:37 PM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=6795.msg89122#msg89122 date=1122949456]
Live & learn...
[/quote]

indeed.  Smiley
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« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2005, 11:26:08 PM »

Quote
The practice still takes place in the Greek monastery Churches, and in some Parishes here in Australia.

That is quite interesting, thanks for the info!  Smiley

Quote
In Greek Parish Churches on Saturday evening and the eve of Great Feasts, there is sometimes also plain kollyva, dried bread and a bowl of wine for dipping in the Narthex as a "singhoria"- partaking of which signifies forgiveness of the living and the dead- (a much later custom).

Sounds like what happens at my church during the Litya service which is served on the Vespers of a feastday.

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« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2005, 02:09:52 AM »

Donna Rose & Choirfiend: Thanks for your responses.  It makes sense now!  Smiley

Quote
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Quote
Sounds like what happens at my church during the Litya service which is served on the Vespers of a feastday.
What's Litya??? It never gets old when it comes to Orthodoxy, does it...always something new...
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« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2005, 02:12:14 AM »

On great feasts after the Augmented and Supplicatory Litanies the Litia,
or Blessing of Bread and Wine, is celebrated.
  >
  > "Litia" is a Greek word meaning "common prayer." The Litia, a series of
verses chanted by the choir followed by an enumeration of many saints whose
prayers are besought, is celebrated in the western end of the church, near
the main entrance doors, or in the Narthex, if the church is so arranged.
This part of the service was intended for those who were standing in the
Narthex, the catechumens and penitents, so they might be able to take part
in the common service on the occasions of the major festivals.
  >
  > At the end of the Litia is the blessing and sanctification of five
loaves of bread, wheat, wine and oil to recall the ancient custom of
providing food for those assembled who had come some distance, in order to
give them strength during the long divine services. The five loaves are
blessed to recall the feeding of the five thousand with five loaves of
bread. Later, during the main part of Matins, the priest anoints the
faithful with the sanctified oil, after they have venerated the festal icon.
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« Reply #32 on: August 08, 2005, 02:03:54 PM »

the word "dread" would be like saying "fearful" or "awesome" mysteries today
the mysteries are fearful in that we don't fully comprehend them and we pray not to eat and drink judgment upon ourselves, but to partake for our healing and spiritual nourishment; they are awesome in that they inspire awe and worship in us.

That I think is what "dread" used to mean

My OCA parish has blessed wine and bread (not to be confused with the consecrated wine and bread that the priest distributes as the body and blood of the Lord) but the blessed wine is in a common cup.

We also have women readers

Our "school year " liturgy with sermon is about 1 hour and forty min. Our summer liturgy is about 65 min.
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« Reply #33 on: August 08, 2005, 02:45:39 PM »

We also have women readers

Our "school year " liturgy with sermon is about 1 hour and forty min. Our summer liturgy is about 65 min.
By women readers, I hope you just mean you have women who do some chanting, Epistle and OT readings, but not actually wearing a black robe or "tonsured" - that can only happen to men since it is a lower clergy order.

65 min is one of the fastest Liturgy's I've heard of.  I think the weekday Liturgys and my OCA parish are about 80 min.
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« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2005, 03:56:51 PM »

BrotherAidan:ÂÂ  Thanks for the explanation of the word "dread".ÂÂ  That had kind of confused me before.ÂÂ  Actually, there are a few other things that confused me, but I will save those to ask the priest next Sunday...

How does anyone do the liturgy in 65 minutes? I went to an Orthodox Church again this Sunday, and stayed for the whole liturgy this time, and it was EXACTLY 1 hour and 55 minutes.ÂÂ  And this time I went to a small mission closer to my house that has parts of the liturgy cut out because they don't have a deacon.ÂÂ  
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« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2005, 05:03:29 PM »

the women read the epistle reading in the aisle some weeks (as do men some sundays as well)

Well, there is no sermon in the summer and the prayers for catechumens are skipped. If you add announcements at the end and the kissing of the cross, then it's back up to an hour and twenty min.

However, sometimes I think my priest chants too fast.
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« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2005, 07:43:31 AM »

Quote
The wine offered with the antidoron is blessed, but not consecrated, it is not sacramental Communion.
So, antidoron is Body of Christ, the wine IS blood but it's not communion?
 Grin
« Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 07:44:21 AM by Armando » Logged

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« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2005, 07:53:04 AM »

So, antidoron is Body of Christ, the wine IS blood but it's not communion?
 Grin

No, it's not, as someone already mentioned.  Antidoron and zapkiva are bread and wine that have been blessed, but not consecrated for communion. 
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