Author Topic: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly  (Read 3019 times)

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Offline ephremgall

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Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« on: January 27, 2016, 08:10:34 PM »
So the status of the Orthodox Church of America (the jurisdiction) will not be resolved?

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2016, 11:21:39 PM »
So the status of the Orthodox Church of America (the jurisdiction) will not be resolved?

It can't be resolved without the OCA's involvement, acceptance, and agreement.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2016, 11:33:05 PM »
So the status of the Orthodox Church of America (the jurisdiction) will not be resolved?

It can't be resolved without the OCA's involvement, acceptance, and agreement.

The Idea of the OCA is a noble one and if I understand its existence it should be a symbol of a unified church in America.  If not then one of two things have to happen.  All American juridictions come under one Patriarch, most likely the Greek Church, or the OCA gets re-absorbed back into the Metropolia..... The whole idea I think was to form an American Orthodox Church OF America.... however, I've been wrong before. BUT, this multi jurisdictional existence that we have now is a sin in my book, and needs remedy at some point in  history.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2016, 11:35:41 PM by JoeS2 »

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2016, 11:39:05 PM »
So the status of the Orthodox Church of America (the jurisdiction) will not be resolved?

It can't be resolved without the OCA's involvement, acceptance, and agreement.

The Idea of the OCA is a noble one and if I understand its existence it should be a symbol of a unified church in America.  If not then one of two things have to happen.  All American juridictions come under one Patriarch, most likely the Greek Church, or the OCA gets re-absorbed back into the Metropolia..... The whole idea I think was to form an American Orthodox Church OF America.... however, I've been wrong before. BUT, this multi jurisdictional existence that we have now is a sin in my book, and needs remedy at some point in  history.

The OCA is willing to join a unified autocephalous church regardless of who the leader is. The OCA will not join an autonomous church and it will not relinquish its autocephaly.
Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.—Oscar Wilde

Offline JoeS2

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2016, 11:45:24 PM »
So the status of the Orthodox Church of America (the jurisdiction) will not be resolved?

It can't be resolved without the OCA's involvement, acceptance, and agreement.

The Idea of the OCA is a noble one and if I understand its existence it should be a symbol of a unified church in America.  If not then one of two things have to happen.  All American juridictions come under one Patriarch, most likely the Greek Church, or the OCA gets re-absorbed back into the Metropolia..... The whole idea I think was to form an American Orthodox Church OF America.... however, I've been wrong before. BUT, this multi jurisdictional existence that we have now is a sin in my book, and needs remedy at some point in  history.

The OCA is willing to join a unified autocephalous church regardless of who the leader is. The OCA will not join an autonomous church and it will not relinquish its autocephaly.

The MP bestowed the Tomas of Autochephaly and the MP can recind such.  I seriously doubt that this would ever happen but it is within the office of the MP to do so if circumstances  deemed it necessary...

Offline ialmisry

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2016, 01:55:47 AM »
So the status of the Orthodox Church of America (the jurisdiction) will not be resolved?

It can't be resolved without the OCA's involvement, acceptance, and agreement.

The Idea of the OCA is a noble one and if I understand its existence it should be a symbol of a unified church in America.  If not then one of two things have to happen.  All American juridictions come under one Patriarch, most likely the Greek Church, or the OCA gets re-absorbed back into the Metropolia..... The whole idea I think was to form an American Orthodox Church OF America.... however, I've been wrong before. BUT, this multi jurisdictional existence that we have now is a sin in my book, and needs remedy at some point in  history.

The OCA is willing to join a unified autocephalous church regardless of who the leader is. The OCA will not join an autonomous church and it will not relinquish its autocephaly.

The MP bestowed the Tomas of Autochephaly and the MP can recind such.

No, it can't. That's part of autocephaly.

Nor would it make a precedent that the Phanar would not doubt pick up on.

Btw, we have a thread on this issue somewhere here.
I seriously doubt that this would ever happen but it is within the office of the MP to do so if circumstances  deemed it necessary...
I can nearly guarantee it would never happen. Nor should it.
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Offline mike

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2016, 05:35:02 PM »
The OCA will not join an autonomous church and it will not relinquish its autocephaly.

IIRC Metr. Jonah said one something on the contrary, provided potential autonomous Church will be the only. Not sure how it's relevant now.

The MP bestowed the Tomas of Autochephaly and the MP can recind such.

No, it can't. That's part of autocephaly.

Nor would it make a precedent that the Phanar would not doubt pick up on.
[/quote]

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2016, 04:31:42 AM »
The OCA will not join an autonomous church and it will not relinquish its autocephaly.

IIRC Metr. Jonah said one something on the contrary, provided potential autonomous Church will be the only. Not sure how it's relevant now.


That's what I remember as well. As I understand it was his postion was that we should be willing to join an autonomous Church as long as there is an understanding that the Church is to work towards autocephaly. I for one think an autonomous Church under the EP is vastly preferable to what we have right now.

Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2016, 08:59:46 AM »
The OCA will not join an autonomous church and it will not relinquish its autocephaly.

IIRC Metr. Jonah said one something on the contrary, provided potential autonomous Church will be the only. Not sure how it's relevant now.


That's what I remember as well. As I understand it was his postion was that we should be willing to join an autonomous Church as long as there is an understanding that the Church is to work towards autocephaly. I for one think an autonomous Church under the EP is vastly preferable to what we have right now.

Yeah I believe that was just good ol' Metropolitan Jonah just speaking off of the cuff without consulting anyone and NOT expressing the position of the OCA's Holy Synod or it's people. IIRC the HS clarified afterwards what the OCA's position is and has been.

of course who knosws what will happen if push comes to shove. I for one would rather be  in an autocephalous OCA on our own than under the EP in any way.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 09:18:30 AM by ICXCNIKA »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2016, 10:39:32 AM »
The OCA will not join an autonomous church and it will not relinquish its autocephaly.

IIRC Metr. Jonah said one something on the contrary, provided potential autonomous Church will be the only. Not sure how it's relevant now.

Quote
The MP bestowed the Tomas of Autochephaly and the MP can recind such.

No, it can't. That's part of autocephaly.

Nor would it make a precedent that the Phanar would not doubt pick up on.
Unless Russia invades the US. Remember the Church of Georgia?
[/quote][/quote]discussing the one at fault at that might be seen as politics here.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 10:42:15 AM by ialmisry »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2016, 10:43:28 AM »
The OCA will not join an autonomous church and it will not relinquish its autocephaly.

IIRC Metr. Jonah said one something on the contrary, provided potential autonomous Church will be the only. Not sure how it's relevant now.


That's what I remember as well. As I understand it was his postion was that we should be willing to join an autonomous Church as long as there is an understanding that the Church is to work towards autocephaly. I for one think an autonomous Church under the EP is vastly preferable to what we have right now.
Ask us who were under him as such. Not a pic-nic.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2016, 10:46:09 AM »
The OCA will not join an autonomous church and it will not relinquish its autocephaly.

IIRC Metr. Jonah said one something on the contrary, provided potential autonomous Church will be the only. Not sure how it's relevant now.


That's what I remember as well. As I understand it was his postion was that we should be willing to join an autonomous Church as long as there is an understanding that the Church is to work towards autocephaly. I for one think an autonomous Church under the EP is vastly preferable to what we have right now.
Ask us who were under him as such. Not a pic-nic.
Honestly, how much effect does a patriarch have on a local parish? I can't think of anything that Patriarch John X has done that has affected our parish. Maybe bishops or even priests notice some differences, but I have a hard time believing the EP inconvenienced your life in any substantial way.
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Offline wobble

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2016, 10:57:22 AM »
"The items officially approved for referral to and adoption by the Holy and Great Council are: The Mission of the Orthodox Church in the Contemporary World, The Orthodox Diaspora, Autonomy and its Manner of Proclamation, The Sacrament of Marriage and its Impediments, The Significance of Fasting and its Application Today, and Relations of the Orthodox Church with the Rest of the Christian World. By decision of the Primates, all approved documents will be published."

https://www.patriarchate.org/-/anakoinothen-27-01-2016-?inheritRedirect=true&redirect=%2Flatest-news

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2016, 12:00:52 PM »
The OCA will not join an autonomous church and it will not relinquish its autocephaly.

IIRC Metr. Jonah said one something on the contrary, provided potential autonomous Church will be the only. Not sure how it's relevant now.


That's what I remember as well. As I understand it was his postion was that we should be willing to join an autonomous Church as long as there is an understanding that the Church is to work towards autocephaly. I for one think an autonomous Church under the EP is vastly preferable to what we have right now.

Yeah I believe that was just good ol' Metropolitan Jonah just speaking off of the cuff without consulting anyone and NOT expressing the position of the OCA's Holy Synod or it's people. IIRC the HS clarified afterwards what the OCA's position is and has been.

of course who knosws what will happen if push comes to shove. I for one would rather be  in an autocephalous OCA on our own than under the EP in any way.

I love the attitude.  IF, and that is a really big IF, this council agrees upon (and remember that the Church of Russia can block any agreement (as can any lack of unanimity) a path for resolving the diaspora issue and the granting of autonomy or autocephaly, the OCA would either be part of the solution of the Church or it would find itself outside, looking in. The Council is bringing up "The Orthodox Diaspora, Autonomy and its Manner of Proclamation."

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2016, 12:42:13 PM »
The OCA will not join an autonomous church and it will not relinquish its autocephaly.

IIRC Metr. Jonah said one something on the contrary, provided potential autonomous Church will be the only. Not sure how it's relevant now.


That's what I remember as well. As I understand it was his postion was that we should be willing to join an autonomous Church as long as there is an understanding that the Church is to work towards autocephaly. I for one think an autonomous Church under the EP is vastly preferable to what we have right now.

Yeah I believe that was just good ol' Metropolitan Jonah just speaking off of the cuff without consulting anyone and NOT expressing the position of the OCA's Holy Synod or it's people. IIRC the HS clarified afterwards what the OCA's position is and has been.

of course who knosws what will happen if push comes to shove. I for one would rather be  in an autocephalous OCA on our own than under the EP in any way.

I love the attitude.  IF, and that is a really big IF, this council agrees upon (and remember that the Church of Russia can block any agreement (as can any lack of unanimity) a path for resolving the diaspora issue and the granting of autonomy or autocephaly, the OCA would either be part of the solution of the Church or it would find itself outside, looking in. The Council is bringing up "The Orthodox Diaspora, Autonomy and its Manner of Proclamation."

As usual, you are right. However, the experience of the Bulgarian Church could be informative here. As the daughter church of Constantinople, the Bulgarian Church was granted autocephaly numerous times, the first being in the 10th Century and the last in the 20th. The only variable was the relative strength of Bulgaria and Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire--no canonical reasons whatsoever. So, we do have a precedent in a mother church changing her mind (not once but many times) but that example is not one that any Orthodox theologian or bishop would use publicly. Besides, Russian geopolitical strength is not high enough for the Russian Church to dictate anything to anybody in the United States. In the case of the OCA, she is autocephalous, regardless of whether another local church includes her in the diptychs. The fact is that the priests and bishops of the other 14 churches have co-
celebrated the Divine Liturgy and have partaken from the same Holy Chalice. OCA cannot be forced to give up her autocephaly and if she does, short of a true administrative union in the USA, it will be only because of Christian love and charity on the part of her Holy Synod, because of Her condescension.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2016, 12:43:21 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2016, 12:51:31 PM »
The OCA will not join an autonomous church and it will not relinquish its autocephaly.

IIRC Metr. Jonah said one something on the contrary, provided potential autonomous Church will be the only. Not sure how it's relevant now.


That's what I remember as well. As I understand it was his postion was that we should be willing to join an autonomous Church as long as there is an understanding that the Church is to work towards autocephaly. I for one think an autonomous Church under the EP is vastly preferable to what we have right now.

Yeah I believe that was just good ol' Metropolitan Jonah just speaking off of the cuff without consulting anyone and NOT expressing the position of the OCA's Holy Synod or it's people. IIRC the HS clarified afterwards what the OCA's position is and has been.

of course who knosws what will happen if push comes to shove. I for one would rather be  in an autocephalous OCA on our own than under the EP in any way.

I love the attitude.  IF, and that is a really big IF, this council agrees upon (and remember that the Church of Russia can block any agreement (as can any lack of unanimity) a path for resolving the diaspora issue and the granting of autonomy or autocephaly, the OCA would either be part of the solution of the Church or it would find itself outside, looking in. The Council is bringing up "The Orthodox Diaspora, Autonomy and its Manner of Proclamation."

As usual, you are right. However, the experience of the Bulgarian Church could be informative here. As the daughter church of Constantinople, the Bulgarian Church was granted autocephaly numerous times, the first being in the 10th Century and the last in the 20th. The only variable was the relative strength of Bulgaria and Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire--no canonical reasons whatsoever. So, we do have a precedent in a mother church changing her mind (not once but many times) but that example is not one that any Orthodox theologian or bishop would use publicly. Besides, Russian geopolitical strength is not high enough for the Russian Church to dictate anything to anybody in the United States. In the case of the OCA, she is autocephalous, regardless of whether another local church includes her in the diptychs. The fact is that the priests and bishops of the other 14 churches have co-
celebrated the Divine Liturgy and have partaken from the same Holy Chalice. OCA cannot be forced top give up her autocephaly and if she does short of a true administrative union in the USA, it will be only because of Christian love and charity on the part of her Holy Synod, because of Her condescension.

I agree and I think that we all need to reiterate the points you and I have made. I've noticed posts elsewhere and in Facebook groups where it seems clear to me that many in the OCA don't understand that the lack of universal recognition of its autocephaly is not equivalent to either a lack of canonicity in terms of communion or some other sort of distancing schism or break. Carl and I are of an age where we both remember when that was certainly NOT the case probably through the 1960's when you probably had to buy a scorecard at the annual Sunday of Orthodoxy to see who was talking to and communing with one another.  So...I hate to see people get 'hung up' over the OCA not having a formal seat at this council and I really think that if one has been following the tedious and obstacle strewn course the conciliar preplanning course has taken the past fifty years that nothing beyond a photo-op may result since it appears all documents to be approved will have been thoroughly vetted and agreed upon going in.

Constantinople and Moscow are well aware of the 'elephant in the room' that has the real potential to cause schism worldwide and that is the state of affairs in Ukraine. Neither Patriarchate, in spite of huffing and puffing, is likely willing to cross any Rubicon and be known as one who led the Church into lasting schism. Let us pray for the intercession of the Saints and the gift of the Holy Spirit to guide our hierarchs and OUR faith.

Offline DeniseDenise

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2016, 01:13:27 PM »
I don't disagree overall.....but...there is still an element of 'if you are not even invited to discuss....' that does render the OCA in a strange spot....canonical or not.
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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2016, 01:51:43 PM »
I don't disagree overall.....but...there is still an element of 'if you are not even invited to discuss....' that does render the OCA in a strange spot....canonical or not.

What would they have done if Metropolitan Tikhon and an OCA delegation just showed up? 
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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2016, 01:56:08 PM »
I don't disagree overall.....but...there is still an element of 'if you are not even invited to discuss....' that does render the OCA in a strange spot....canonical or not.

What would they have done if Metropolitan Tikhon and an OCA delegation just showed up?


No idea...just saying that whether they would commune with us or not......is a different matter than 'and you also have a say in your own future'

deciding the autocephaly issue and there being no input from OCA at all (even if it wouldnt change the OCA status) is still a bit like deciding that someone not present doesnt 'count' anyhow...
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Offline ICXCNIKA

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2016, 04:59:31 PM »
This all probably a moot point since I doubt any Patriarchate is itching to get rid of their American dioceses and everyone has a veto so it is not even like the EP or MP can force their positions down anyone's throat.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2016, 09:10:33 PM »
The OCA will not join an autonomous church and it will not relinquish its autocephaly.

IIRC Metr. Jonah said one something on the contrary, provided potential autonomous Church will be the only. Not sure how it's relevant now.


That's what I remember as well. As I understand it was his postion was that we should be willing to join an autonomous Church as long as there is an understanding that the Church is to work towards autocephaly. I for one think an autonomous Church under the EP is vastly preferable to what we have right now.
Ask us who were under him as such. Not a pic-nic.
Honestly, how much effect does a patriarch have on a local parish?
Look at Jerusalem and All Palestine.
I can't think of anything that Patriarch John X has done that has affected our parish.
His Beatitude isn't a Phanariot.
Maybe bishops or even priests notice some differences, but I have a hard time believing the EP inconvenienced your life in any substantial way.
Fortunately for the most part my bishops have not fallen for HAH's claims, and hence HAH's inconveniencing powers have been contained-outside of the problems grandiose claims make.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2016, 09:15:56 PM »
The OCA will not join an autonomous church and it will not relinquish its autocephaly.

IIRC Metr. Jonah said one something on the contrary, provided potential autonomous Church will be the only. Not sure how it's relevant now.


That's what I remember as well. As I understand it was his postion was that we should be willing to join an autonomous Church as long as there is an understanding that the Church is to work towards autocephaly. I for one think an autonomous Church under the EP is vastly preferable to what we have right now.

Yeah I believe that was just good ol' Metropolitan Jonah just speaking off of the cuff without consulting anyone and NOT expressing the position of the OCA's Holy Synod or it's people. IIRC the HS clarified afterwards what the OCA's position is and has been.

of course who knosws what will happen if push comes to shove. I for one would rather be  in an autocephalous OCA on our own than under the EP in any way.

I love the attitude.  IF, and that is a really big IF, this council agrees upon (and remember that the Church of Russia can block any agreement (as can any lack of unanimity) a path for resolving the diaspora issue and the granting of autonomy or autocephaly, the OCA would either be part of the solution of the Church or it would find itself outside, looking in. The Council is bringing up "The Orthodox Diaspora, Autonomy and its Manner of Proclamation."
The Greek Church was saying it is majority vote-although the CoG seems to have broke Omogeneia on that now. Bu we might still end up on opposite sides, the Estonian Episode of the 90's being a trial run.

Only Robber Councils pass judgement on the absent. That's how Pope Dioscoros got in trouble over a heretic like Ibas.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2016, 10:35:18 PM »
This is all much ado about nothing. It is going to last at best nine days and Moscow will simply veto what it will not abide prior to the darned thing even begins.

No side is going to risk schism given the geopolitical mess going on in the Mideast, Europe and Ukraine. The stakes are too high.

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2016, 03:01:04 AM »
As usual, you are right. However, the experience of the Bulgarian Church could be informative here. As the daughter church of Constantinople, the Bulgarian Church was granted autocephaly numerous times, the first being in the 10th Century and the last in the 20th. The only variable was the relative strength of Bulgaria and Eastern Roman/Byzantine Empire--no canonical reasons whatsoever. So, we do have a precedent in a mother church changing her mind (not once but many times) but that example is not one that any Orthodox theologian or bishop would use publicly. Besides, Russian geopolitical strength is not high enough for the Russian Church to dictate anything to anybody in the United States. In the case of the OCA, she is autocephalous, regardless of whether another local church includes her in the diptychs. The fact is that the priests and bishops of the other 14 churches have co-
celebrated the Divine Liturgy and have partaken from the same Holy Chalice. OCA cannot be forced top give up her autocephaly and if she does short of a true administrative union in the USA, it will be only because of Christian love and charity on the part of her Holy Synod, because of Her condescension.

I agree and I think that we all need to reiterate the points you and I have made. I've noticed posts elsewhere and in Facebook groups where it seems clear to me that many in the OCA don't understand that the lack of universal recognition of its autocephaly is not equivalent to either a lack of canonicity in terms of communion or some other sort of distancing schism or break. Carl and I are of an age where we both remember when that was certainly NOT the case probably through the 1960's when you probably had to buy a scorecard at the annual Sunday of Orthodoxy to see who was talking to and communing with one another.  So...I hate to see people get 'hung up' over the OCA not having a formal seat at this council and I really think that if one has been following the tedious and obstacle strewn course the conciliar preplanning course has taken the past fifty years that nothing beyond a photo-op may result since it appears all documents to be approved will have been thoroughly vetted and agreed upon going in.

Constantinople and Moscow are well aware of the 'elephant in the room' that has the real potential to cause schism worldwide and that is the state of affairs in Ukraine. Neither Patriarchate, in spite of huffing and puffing, is likely willing to cross any Rubicon and be known as one who led the Church into lasting schism. Let us pray for the intercession of the Saints and the gift of the Holy Spirit to guide our hierarchs and OUR faith.

+1 to both of your points.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #24 on: January 30, 2016, 01:30:04 PM »
I don't disagree overall.....but...there is still an element of 'if you are not even invited to discuss....' that does render the OCA in a strange spot....canonical or not.

What would they have done if Metropolitan Tikhon and an OCA delegation just showed up?
The Rules and Procedures governing the council have been published. http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/90149.htm
Quote
By the grace of the Holy Trinity, the Holy and Great Council is an authentic expression of the canonical tradition and perennial Church practice as to the functioning of the conciliar system in the One Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
I don't ever recall a Council where a Canonical Church was excluded from attending.
Quote
the Council’s signed decisions as well as the Message of the Holy and Great Council shall be sent out by Patriarchal letters of the Ecumenical Patriarch to the primates of the autocephalous Orthodox Churches who shall bring them to the notice of their Churches. These documents shall have a pan-Orthodox authority.
not with a missing Orthodox Church they won't.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2016, 01:32:14 PM by ialmisry »
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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2016, 02:01:33 PM »
If the OCA cared enough, they would do something about it. They don't seem to, so I'm not sure why forum grandstanding is necessary or profitable.

Tomorrow, an archdeacon of the Ecumenical Patriarchate will speak about the upcoming council in front of the primate of the OCA. They don't seem particularly worked up about it.
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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #26 on: January 30, 2016, 03:18:47 PM »
Only Robber Councils pass judgement on the absent. That's how Pope Dioscoros got in trouble over a heretic like Ibas.

I was not aware that Origen and Theodore of Mopsuestia were present at the council that condemned them....
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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #27 on: January 30, 2016, 05:25:02 PM »
I don't disagree overall.....but...there is still an element of 'if you are not even invited to discuss....' that does render the OCA in a strange spot....canonical or not.

What would they have done if Metropolitan Tikhon and an OCA delegation just showed up?
The Rules and Procedures governing the council have been published. http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/90149.htm

I got about this far:

Quote
This document is approved by the participants in the Synaxis of the Primates of Local Orthodox Churches on January 21 – 28, 2016, in Chambesy, excepting representatives of the Patriarchate of Antioch.

It is published by the decision of the Synaxis of the Primates.

and then laughed.  So much for unanimity.  :P 
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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #28 on: January 30, 2016, 10:57:55 PM »
If Antioch is absent, there is no council.
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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2016, 01:40:13 AM »
^Seriously.
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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2016, 11:51:07 AM »
If the OCA cared enough, they would do something about it. They don't seem to, so I'm not sure why forum grandstanding is necessary or profitable.

Tomorrow, an archdeacon of the Ecumenical Patriarchate will speak about the upcoming council in front of the primate of the OCA. They don't seem particularly worked up about it.
Something tells me, the OCA and either ROCOR or the ROC have worked something out.

If Antioch is absent, there is no council.
Antioch will be there. If you're a bettin man/woman, bet on it.

What are the actual dates for the council?

PP
« Last Edit: February 01, 2016, 11:54:22 AM by primuspilus »
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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #31 on: February 03, 2016, 04:41:43 AM »
.

What are the actual dates for the council?

June.
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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2016, 12:31:19 PM »
Personally, I think that Orthodoxy in America is simply not that important to the Council to make a final decision on. There is simply no reason to. All involved parties are receiving plenty of money, land, converts, etc. to keep things the way they are.

PP
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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2016, 01:27:09 PM »
Personally, I think that Orthodoxy in America is simply not that important to the Council to make a final decision on. There is simply no reason to. All involved parties are receiving plenty of money, land, converts, etc. to keep things the way they are.

PP

Single parish in Quatar is definitely more important.
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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2016, 02:38:40 PM »
I don't disagree overall.....but...there is still an element of 'if you are not even invited to discuss....' that does render the OCA in a strange spot....canonical or not.

What would they have done if Metropolitan Tikhon and an OCA delegation just showed up?
The Rules and Procedures governing the council have been published. http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/90149.htm

I got about this far:

Quote
This document is approved by the participants in the Synaxis of the Primates of Local Orthodox Churches on January 21 – 28, 2016, in Chambesy, excepting representatives of the Patriarchate of Antioch.

It is published by the decision of the Synaxis of the Primates.

and then laughed.  So much for unanimity.  :P

And Moscow's 'solidarity' with the Arab churches...

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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2016, 02:45:20 PM »
I don't disagree overall.....but...there is still an element of 'if you are not even invited to discuss....' that does render the OCA in a strange spot....canonical or not.

What would they have done if Metropolitan Tikhon and an OCA delegation just showed up?
The Rules and Procedures governing the council have been published. http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/90149.htm

I got about this far:

Quote
This document is approved by the participants in the Synaxis of the Primates of Local Orthodox Churches on January 21 – 28, 2016, in Chambesy, excepting representatives of the Patriarchate of Antioch.

It is published by the decision of the Synaxis of the Primates.

and then laughed.  So much for unanimity.  :P

And Moscow's 'solidarity' with the Arab churches...

I am pretty sure Antiochian delegation did not participate in DL because of ban of intercommunion that they issued to the Jerusalem Patriarchate. Was Moscow supposed to do to show solidarity? Do the same thing?
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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2016, 05:01:26 PM »
Personally, I think that Orthodoxy in America is simply not that important to the Council to make a final decision on. There is simply no reason to. All involved parties are receiving plenty of money, land, converts, etc. to keep things the way they are.

PP

Single parish in Quatar is definitely more important.
Of course it is. Its to set a standard for future encroachments by those backed by the EP....especially in places like Ukraine.

PP
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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2016, 12:26:26 AM »
I don't disagree overall.....but...there is still an element of 'if you are not even invited to discuss....' that does render the OCA in a strange spot....canonical or not.

What would they have done if Metropolitan Tikhon and an OCA delegation just showed up?
The Rules and Procedures governing the council have been published. http://www.pravoslavie.ru/english/90149.htm

I got about this far:

Quote
This document is approved by the participants in the Synaxis of the Primates of Local Orthodox Churches on January 21 – 28, 2016, in Chambesy, excepting representatives of the Patriarchate of Antioch.

It is published by the decision of the Synaxis of the Primates.

and then laughed.  So much for unanimity.  :P

And Moscow's 'solidarity' with the Arab churches...

I am pretty sure Antiochian delegation did not participate in DL because of ban of intercommunion that they issued to the Jerusalem Patriarchate. Was Moscow supposed to do to show solidarity? Do the same thing?
Not necessary. Antioch not going for its reasons serves Moscow's purpose as well for its own purposes (and Orthodoxy) to thwart the Phanar's plans.

Think back to when the Phanar tried to hide the Greek Church behind references to "the Ancient Patriarchates."
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2016, 09:53:55 AM »
Its to set a standard for future encroachments by those backed by the EP....especially in places like Ukraine.

PP

So who, accordingly to you is supported by the EP in Ukraine?
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Re: Upcoming Council & the OCA's Autocephaly
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2016, 04:08:21 PM »
Its to set a standard for future encroachments by those backed by the EP....especially in places like Ukraine.

PP

So who, accordingly to you is supported by the EP in Ukraine?
Im not saying anyone is. However, Im sure they'd love to lap up more churches in spite of Moscow.

PP
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