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Author Topic: Pre-Emptive War Officially Condemned By Antiochians  (Read 4897 times) Average Rating: 0
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Justin Kissel
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« on: August 01, 2005, 02:08:17 PM »

Posted by Fr. George Morelli at Monachos.net...

RESOLUTION IN VIGOROUS OPPOSITION TO POSITIONS TAKEN BY EXTREME CHRISTIAN GROUPS

WHEREAS, several extreme positions that are both divisive and dangerous have emerged from so-called “Left-wing” and “Right-wing” Christian groups;

AND WHEREAS, the tenets of these extreme positions include, but are not limited to, support for same-sex marriage, support for abortion, support for ordination of women to Holy Orders, support for the concept of war which is “pre-emptive” or “justifiable”, and the labeling of other faiths and their leaders with hateful terminology;

AND WHEREAS, The Holy Orthodox Church believes and teaches the faith which was taught by Our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, and upheld by His Apostles, and “which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude:3);

AND WHEREAS, The Self-Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America stands firm in her resolve to uphold this Holy Orthodox Faith in all of its purity;

THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that this General Assembly of the 47th Convention of the Self-Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America firmly rejects all extremist positions that are contrary to the teachings of the Holy Orthodox Faith;

AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that this Archdiocese will not be affiliated with those groups that support and promulgate these [‘and any’ (added by friendly amendment)] extreme positions, and that this Archdiocese will continue to witness to the Truth as received from our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, His Holy Apostles, the Holy Fathers and all of the saints and martyrs who have lived and died to uphold the Orthodox Faith

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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2005, 02:48:43 PM »

Quote
support for the concept of war which is “pre-emptive” or “justifiable”,

I really hope that someone can explain this statement or comment on it for those of us who are confused! Huh
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2005, 03:26:04 PM »

I suppose I should be thankful I'm not an Antiochian, because I have to disagree with them on this one.  In certain cases, yes, war is justifiable and in certain very limited cases, pre-emptive war is justifiable.  The most obvious example of a justifiable war is one of self-defense.  A pre-emptive war is one in which your adversary is poised to strike imminently and you strike before they can, thereby pre-empting their attack.  The best example I can think of is one of Israel's wars, in which Egypt (I think) was massing troops near the border and intelligence indicated they were about to attack.  Accordingly, Israel struck first.  Pre-emptive war essentially boils down to a proactive defense.

To nit-pick terminology (since international relations is one of my favored disciplines), I suspect what the Antiochians intended to condemn was preventive war (which is a technical term with a precise meaning, much like pre-emptive war).  That is going to war with an adversary because you think they might attack you.  To distinguish between the two somewhat more, if in the above example, Israel had struck at Egypt long before there were indications that Egypt planned to invade on the mere possibility that Egypt might invade, that would be a preventive war, rather than pre-emptive.

As one of my former priests pointed out once, the Church is peace-loving, not pacifistic.  There are occasions when going to war may well be the lesser of two evils, and in that circumstance, it is certainly justifiable (although perhaps "excusable" or "tolerable" might be better terms).  I suppose I agree with what I think the intent behind their resolution was, but disagree with the manner in which they stated it (hmm....remind anyone of our issues with the non-Chalcedonians, maybe?).
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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2005, 04:06:05 PM »

  I don't know why my jurisdiction came out with this.  What's its purpose?  I suported going to war, and still do.
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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2005, 04:06:52 PM »

hehe, I guess my Church isn't going to affiliate with me?   Shocked
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« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2005, 04:09:30 PM »

What ridiculous nonsense.  Were the Israelis wrong to take out Saddam's nuclear reactor in 1981 KNOWING FULL WELL THAT HE WOULD USE IT ON THEM?  I don't support Israel much but clearly that was an example of when a preemtive strike was justifiable.

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« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2005, 04:20:49 PM »

...rejects all extremist positions that are contrary to the teachings of the Holy Orthodox Faith;

They should have clarified this by adding "Unless another St. Constantine or another Holy Emperor comes along. Then we will paint a cross on our tanks and kick ass if he says so -- Because then it must would be under the direction of the Holy Spirit"
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« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2005, 04:35:44 PM »

Thanks be to God for the wisdom of the Antiochian church on this one.

Never, ever, ever in the history of the Christian church has there ever been a lawful, legitimate concept of "pre-emptive" war. Whether you are talking about the West, with its concept of "Just War," or the East, where war was considered unholy under all circumstances (but sometimes a "necessary evil), war was always considered as a matter of absolutely last resort.

If you look at the tradition of the earliest churches, most of the saints who were in the Roman Army were sainted for being martyrs for their faith - not for fighting others. And, if you look at the diplomacy of the Byzantine (East Roman) Empire, its emperors usually considered diplomacy, economic action or even espionage before going to war - which they only did as a last resort.
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« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2005, 05:22:13 PM »

While I don't know if the Iraq war ended up being in the best interests of America - the full story will never be known by the general public.  Modern warfare is not really comparable to warfare during Roman times, nucluar weapons really have changed that. 
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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2005, 06:44:33 PM »

Good for the Antiochian Archdiocese! I get sick of hearing evangelical Protestant leaders calling for an all out clash of civilizations and who have seemingly become the religious arm of the U.S. military. In the age of biological and nuclear weaponry in which the ravages of war are no longer confined to armies battling on distant fields, we must be careful in considering what wars are justified and which are not. I cannot conceive of a war in the twenty-first century which could be morally waged pre-emptively. I whole-heartedly support the Spirit-lead Synod of the Antiochian Archdiocese and praise the leadership of Metropolitan +Philip.
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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2005, 08:12:15 PM »

With the Iraq war I can honestly see both sides of the issue and admit both sides have valids arguments.  My personal view is that America should back out of her neo-imperialism because it has not gained much in terms of good for America and has been very costly.  But.... I am a little nervous of the synod decisions seeming a little two involved with worldly politics.  Sort of like Metr. Anthony of SF (GOA)'s paschal encyclical condemning the Iraq war.... I was struck by how lame it was to talk about politics instead of Pascha. 
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« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2005, 08:19:48 PM »

War is reality of what happens when good meets the evil and when evil being evil attacs good. (Rev. 12, 7-8.)
However not every war is war between good and evil.

I just do not think that anything US does (as the ruler of this world) is good or in nature selfless but very selfish.
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« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2005, 09:26:48 PM »

So amnesiac, when we found out that the USSR was putting missle silos in Cuba, it was wrong for us to mobilize against Cuba?  We should have allowed them to attack first and after millions were dead, then taken action?

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« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2005, 10:05:49 PM »

They should have clarified this by adding "Unless another St. Constantine or another Holy Emperor comes along. Then we will paint a cross on our tanks and kick ass if he says so -- Because then it must would be under the direction of the Holy Spirit"

AMEN!!!

But baring the Resurrection of the Roman Empire, I do tend to oppose offensive war. It's really not the best solution unless your goal is to expand your Empire (something I may support with the Roman Empire, but not with the United States). With that said, this decree will do absoutely no good, and may hurt some political connections, in short, whether it was right or not is irrelevant, it was stupid. This is evidence that americans should not rule themselves, Especially in Ecclesiastical matters; silence on the issue would have been the prudent course of actions, especially since this seemed to come out of the blue anyway.
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« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2005, 10:27:46 PM »

What ridiculous nonsense.ÂÂ  Were the Israelis wrong to take out Saddam's nuclear reactor in 1981 KNOWING FULL WELL THAT HE WOULD USE IT ON THEM?ÂÂ  I don't support Israel much but clearly that was an example of when a preemtive strike was justifiable.

Anastasios

I'm not sure that event qualifies as 'war', but between this and the NNC withdrawal, the Antiochians definitely have my attention.
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« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2005, 10:30:38 PM »

So amnesiac, when we found out that the USSR was putting missle silos in Cuba, it was wrong for us to mobilize against Cuba?ÂÂ  We should have allowed them to attack first and after millions were dead, then taken action?

That is simply absurd! I came nowhere near suggesting anything close to that, and neither is that scenario analogous to any pre-emptive scenario set forth by this administration. Given the context of the Cold War, for the USSR to move missiles into Cuba (or anywhere in the Western Hemisphere) was an act of provocation and should have been answered. What President Kennedy did not do, however, was launch an invasion of the Soviet Union. Congress declared no war (a Constitutional prerogative they seem to have forfeited to the increasingly powerful executive) and direct conflict was averted.

Iraq, on the other hand, was in no way a threat to us. According to the 9/11 Commission Report, there was no direct or even discernable link between the Hussein regime and those who attacked us on September 11th or on the U.S.S. Cole or at our African embassies. The fact of the matter is that this policy of pre-emptive war (which will not again, in my judgment, be supported by the American people) was an attempt to justify any attack on any regime whose elimination would help advance the geo-political agenda of the neoconservatives (read: American imperialists).

"The United States is not a paladin who goes forth in search of monsters to destroy. If she were, she would become dictatress of the world, but in the process lose her own soul. She is the well-wisher of freedom everywhere, but the guardians only of our own." -John Quincy Adams.
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« Reply #16 on: August 01, 2005, 10:44:01 PM »

Amnesiac,

Thank you for clearing that up.  It just seemed like when you said that "I cannot conceive of a war in the twenty-first century which could be morally waged pre-emptively" I wondered about the Cuba situation, the 1981 Israeli situation, when you said this, but your response to my question is something I can agree with. Thanks.

Anastasios
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« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2005, 08:15:10 AM »

First of all, we must agree on a definition of war. To quote the U.S. Constitution Section 8 Clause 11 : The Congress shall have Power To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Wate[/i]

So what this means is that in order for a War to occur, Congress must give a Declaration of War. Therefore, we have not been in a war since World War 2.

[begin rant]

Now to address the people who keep bringing up biological and neuclear weapons:

A Neuclear weapon has never been used by any country other than the United States in World War 2. Biological Weapons have never been used on a mass scale as a means of military attack. It has always been pointed at Civilians, not military targets. Neuclear Weapons are outdated, U.S. Technology has advanced far beyound Neuclear Capabilities.

The ideal situation to the Crisis in the Middle East which will make everyone happy is to supply the People with Weapons, go home and let the Middle East sort itself out. If the rebels had the kind of weaponry that Israel does (thanks to the US), we would never have gotten involved in this because the rebels wouldn't have to result to terror tactics, they could fight face to face on the battle field with Israel and that would settle that.

Now for all those people who say that the US should stop their role as "international police", you're absolutely right, we should. It very bad to come to the aide of your allies. Its also bad to give trillions of dollars to countries which you destroyed as part of a war plan. Who do you think pays for all the nations damages? The US. Who rebuilt Germany after WW2? The US. Who rebuilt every country we've fought in? The US. Now I wonder, should we continue to leave the world alone?

Consider this final statement. If the US Government goes bankrupt, what would happen to the world?  [end rant]

Nick
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« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2005, 08:20:42 AM »

If the rebels had the kind of weaponry that Israel does (thanks to the US), we would never have gotten involved in this because the rebels wouldn't have to result to terror tactics, they could fight face to face on the battle field with Israel and that would settle that.

They've tried that before.  Israel cleaned their clock every single time, even when vastly outnumbered.  It was only when they couldn't push Israel into the sea with tanks that they started trying to do it with suicide bombs.
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« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2005, 08:25:31 AM »

They've tried that before.  Israel cleaned their clock every single time, even when vastly outnumbered.  It was only when they couldn't push Israel into the sea with tanks that they started trying to do it with suicide bombs.


thats true, but it only illustrates my point of the dispairity of technology. Israel has tanks, and planes, and helicopters, and US equiptment, the rebels do not

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« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2005, 11:40:52 AM »

Now for all those people who say that the US should stop their role as "international police", you're absolutely right, we should. It very bad to come to the aide of your allies. Its also bad to give trillions of dollars to countries which you destroyed as part of a war plan. Who do you think pays for all the nations damages? The US. Who rebuilt Germany after WW2? The US. Who rebuilt every country we've fought in? The US. Now I wonder, should we continue to leave the world alone?

Regardless of your view on the United States as an international police (a role which I personally oppose), I fail to understand your criticism of the Marshall Plan, especially in hindsight. After WWI we tried the tactic of making the defeated country pay the costs of the war, it lead to WWII a mere 20 years later. The Marshall plan built up two former enemies and made them into valuable allies and powerful trading partners, returning the investment many times over. It is a post war doctrine that has proven itself in the past, and there is no reason to believe it will fail us in the future.
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« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2005, 08:05:22 AM »

Regardless of your view on the United States as an international police (a role which I personally oppose), I fail to understand your criticism of the Marshall Plan, especially in hindsight. After WWI we tried the tactic of making the defeated country pay the costs of the war, it lead to WWII a mere 20 years later. The Marshall plan built up two former enemies and made them into valuable allies and powerful trading partners, returning the investment many times over. It is a post war doctrine that has proven itself in the past, and there is no reason to believe it will fail us in the future.

Why should the US waste its hard earned money on other countries. We have a national debt, we have starvation, we have poverty. Lets clean up our own country before we rebuild war zones.
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« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2005, 03:58:48 PM »

Admiralnick, for the most part, while I agree with you, Iraq is a special case.

In its case, the K-Mart rule applies. To quote Colin Powell: "You broke it, now you have to purchase it."
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« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2005, 04:17:01 PM »

Why should the US waste its hard earned money on other countries. We have a national debt, we have starvation, we have poverty. Lets clean up our own country before we rebuild war zones.

Did we learn nothing from the Treaty of Versailles and events that transpired as a result? Rebuilding war-torn countries may be expensive, but as the aforementioned tragic mistake in history teaches us, the cost of not rebuilding them is far more expensive, both in terms of life and money.
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« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2005, 10:21:13 AM »

Posted by Fr. George Morelli at Monachos.net...

RESOLUTION IN VIGOROUS OPPOSITION TO POSITIONS TAKEN BY EXTREME CHRISTIAN GROUPS

WHEREAS, several extreme positions that are both divisive and dangerous have emerged from so-called “Left-wing” and “Right-wing” Christian groups;

AND WHEREAS, the tenets of these extreme positions include, but are not limited to, support for same-sex marriage, support for abortion, support for ordination of women to Holy Orders, support for the concept of war which is “pre-emptive” or “justifiable”, and the labeling of other faiths and their leaders with hateful terminology;

AND WHEREAS, The Holy Orthodox Church believes and teaches the faith which was taught by Our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, and upheld by His Apostles, and “which was once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude:3);

AND WHEREAS, The Self-Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America stands firm in her resolve to uphold this Holy Orthodox Faith in all of its purity;

THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that this General Assembly of the 47th Convention of the Self-Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America firmly rejects all extremist positions that are contrary to the teachings of the Holy Orthodox Faith;

AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that this Archdiocese will not be affiliated with those groups that support and promulgate these [‘and any’ (added by friendly amendment)] extreme positions, and that this Archdiocese will continue to witness to the Truth as received from our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, His Holy Apostles, the Holy Fathers and all of the saints and martyrs who have lived and died to uphold the Orthodox Faith

Sponsored by His Eminence Metropolitan PHILIP

Guess what? The Antiochian Church isnt embattled in goverment affairs and warfare. If there was a threat to its very naturewhen it was a city-state, there is not doubt that pre-emptive warfare would be an option.
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« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2005, 10:24:43 AM »


thats true, but it only illustrates my point of the dispairity of technology. Israel has tanks, and planes, and helicopters, and US equiptment, the rebels do not

Nick

You forget that Communist USSR had armed Egypt in a Cold War attempt to instigate a war in the Middle East vs the US.  The Arab armies outnumbed Israel's 10 to 1 and had equal technology.  Furthermore, Israel is the only nation in the middle east to help the orthodox arabs.
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« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2005, 01:35:20 PM »

PrinceMarko, you think that Israel "helps" the Christian Arabs? On what basis?

Fact 1: About three years ago, Israel gave the go-ahead for the Arabs to build a huge mosque in Manger Square in Nazareth, despite the fact that the Christians in Nazareth were opposed to this.

Fact 2: Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, thus bringing about the downfall of the Christian government there.

Fact 3: Before Israel was established, in the early 20th century, Christian Arabs were 50 percent of the Palestinian Arab population. Now, they are 2%. Coincidence? I think not.

The Christian Arabs are friendless. The Israelis despise them because they seem them as just other Arabs. The Muslim Arabs see them as sellouts to the west. And most Protestant Christians do not see them as Christians because they are not what they consider to be "Bible-believing" Christians.
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« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2005, 10:50:05 AM »

PrinceMarko, you think that Israel "helps" the Christian Arabs? On what basis?

Fact 1: About three years ago, Israel gave the go-ahead for the Arabs to build a huge mosque in Manger Square in Nazareth, despite the fact that the Christians in Nazareth were opposed to this.

Fact 2: Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, thus bringing about the downfall of the Christian government there.

Fact 3: Before Israel was established, in the early 20th century, Christian Arabs were 50 percent of the Palestinian Arab population. Now, they are 2%. Coincidence? I think not.

The Christian Arabs are friendless. The Israelis despise them because they seem them as just other Arabs. The Muslim Arabs see them as sellouts to the west. And most Protestant Christians do not see them as Christians because they are not what they consider to be "Bible-believing" Christians.

Christian Arabs can serve in the IDF. Muslims cannot(except druze). Israel funded the Lebanese Forces(christian militia) from Syrian oppression for YEARS. That is why Israel invaded Lebanon. Get your history straight.
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« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2005, 04:52:31 PM »

I have my history straight, PrinceMarko.

When Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, they made an unstable situation denigrate into utter chaos, thus bringing forth the downfall of the Christian Phalangist government.

How can you deny this?
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« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2005, 10:30:29 AM »

Lebanon was in CIVIL WAR at the time between Muslims and Christians and  you fail to take into consideration the PLO and Abu Nidal's organizations were based in Beirut with Syrian/Iranian support. The Christian goverment in lebanon was on the outs and had NO authority over south lebanon.  The Israel Defence Force invaded southern Lebanon in response to the Abu Nidal organization's assassination attempt against Israel's ambassador to the United Kingdom, Shlomo Argov, but mainly to halt Katyusha rocket attacks on Israeli population in the northern Galilee region launched from Southern Lebanon by islamic extremist groups.  Another reason given for the invasion was as an intervention in the ongoing Lebanese Civil War to counteract Syrian influences in Lebanon, and possibly enable the establishment of a stable Lebanese leadership from the Christian population, which would strengthen a central Lebanese Army, restore security and agree to diplomatic relations with Israel.  The Christian Government of Lebanon at the time was under heavy bombardment by islamic forces mainly supported by Syrian intelligence services.  It was civil war at the point Israel invaded.  The Lebanese Forces led by Samir Geagea and Kaytaeb led by Gamayel were fighting syrians muslims since the early 70's which PREDATED any IDF actions.  I dont know where you are getting your facts, but the ongoing civil war and syria's interaction inside of Lebanon was the reason for Israel going in there.


Christians Militia's funded by the US and Israel- South Lebanese Army, Guardians of the Cedar, Lebanese Forces and Katayeb.
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« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2005, 10:33:38 AM »

I have my history straight, PrinceMarko.

When Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, they made an unstable situation denigrate into utter chaos, thus bringing forth the downfall of the Christian Phalangist government.

How can you deny this?

You'll realize once you've been on this website for a little while longer that facts that your opponent disagrees with do about as much good as Bahama shorts do in Petersburg in January.

-Philip.
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« Reply #31 on: August 11, 2005, 11:12:31 AM »

Quote
The Christian Arabs are friendless. The Israelis despise them because they seem them as just other Arabs. The Muslim Arabs see them as sellouts to the west. And most Protestant Christians do not see them as Christians because they are not what they consider to be "Bible-believing" Christians.

This is true also of Serbs. The Muslims want to kill us and Protestant Christians (those who run the U.S.) don;t see us as "Bible Believing" Christians. Witness the destruction of Orthodox Holy Sites in Kosovo.
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« Reply #32 on: August 11, 2005, 02:47:03 PM »

Reply to aserb:

At least the Serbs have the Russians. The Russians did come to the aid of their Slavic bretheren in 1914, and paid dearly for it.

In 1999, they failed to support the Serbs for two reasons, IMHO: They were too indebted to the West, and Yeltsin was too inebriated to pay much notice to Kosovo. Perhaps if Putin had been in power at that time...who knows?

PrinceMarko:

I believe our gap in communication here results from the fact that you're looking at intent, while I'm looking at outcomes. I'll grant you that Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 with the stated intent of coming to the aid of the Christian government. But the result was chaos, and further depredations for the Christian population in Lebanon. Hence, I don't think intentions count as much as results.

This dichotomy between intentions and results seems to be a common malady amongst the neoconservative set. To use another example: The U.S. may have invaded Iraq with the stated intent of establishing a democracy there. But the outcome is that we're establishing a Shiite theocracy under the control of Iran.

Don't believe me? Then read this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4141616.stm
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« Reply #33 on: August 11, 2005, 04:20:22 PM »

PrinceMarko, you think that Israel "helps" the Christian Arabs? On what basis?
i think Israel tries to use the Arab Christians

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Fact 1: About three years ago, Israel gave the go-ahead for the Arabs to build a huge mosque in Manger Square in Nazareth, despite the fact that the Christians in Nazareth were opposed to this.
it's called politics

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Fact 2: Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982, thus bringing about the downfall of the Christian government there.
this is simply not true, the people in the government then were traitors anyway they sold out to Israel and when sh*t hit the fan they collapsed. Now they are made fun of and handicapped because they (only a few groups not all) have the traitor reputation.

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Fact 3: Before Israel was established, in the early 20th century, Christian Arabs were 50 percent of the Palestinian Arab population. Now, they are 2%. Coincidence? I think not.
it's called migration

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The Christian Arabs are friendless.
depends who you mean by christian arabs, maronites?Copts? arab greek orthodox?
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The Israelis despise them because they seem them as just other Arabs.
PLUS they're christian but they try to make it look like they can be friends accusing muslims to be the common enemy. Simply evil.
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The Muslim Arabs see them as sellouts to the west.
well... that's .... a long story
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And most Protestant Christians do not see them as Christians because they are not what they consider to be "Bible-believing" Christians.
that i agree with 100%
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« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2005, 08:23:54 AM »

DJRAK:

I am sick and tired of hearing that we are not seen by evangelical Protestants as Christians be we Orthodox, Copt, Melkite, Maronite, etc.  The sad part is that evangelicals now hold the reins of power in the U.S.  Don't get me ranting about the reins of power in the U.S.

God Bless. Lord Have Mercy on Lebanon
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« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2005, 09:06:00 AM »

I am sick and tired of hearing that we are not seen by evangelical Protestants as Christians be we Orthodox, Copt, Melkite, Maronite, etc.ÂÂ  The sad part is that evangelicals now hold the reins of power in the U.S.ÂÂ  Don't get me ranting about the reins of power in the U.S.
well they're a minority here but they sure know how to  Shocked people out of their orthodox churches especially pentecostals. Lord have mercy on them.
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God Bless. Lord Have Mercy on Lebanon
God bless you and your people. Lebanon is the living proof of God's unconditional love, people here don't know what they're doing, our Lord is so mercyful and graceful despite all the wickedness that goes on.
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« Reply #36 on: August 15, 2005, 04:57:46 PM »

Interview with a Lebanese Christian about Israel in the 70's-80's  http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=19016

"One day when I was 13 one of our soldiers warned us that we are no longer able to fight and we are going to be attacked viciously that night. He wished us a merciful death as he left. Knowing we were going to be slaughtered that night I put on my Easter dress because I wanted to look pretty when I was dead, knowing that there would be nobody to prepare me for burial. I stood in my dress in front of the mirror crying as my mother combed my long hair and tied a white ribbon in it.  I told her: “please I don't want to die I’m only 13.”

FP: Discuss your intellectual journey about your view of Jews and Israelis, from what you were told in your childhood to when you started questioning whether it was true, to what you think today.

Gabriel: My town was 2 and half miles from the Israeli boarder. We in our Christian town were faced with the combined Muslim and Palestinian forces waiting to slaughter us. We knew our fate, knowing what they have done to other Christian towns and cities in the rest of Lebanon. To our back was Israel. The enemy, Satan, the demon possessed Jews. We had no where to turn but one way, to the devil Israel. After all we knew the Jews wouldn’t slaughter us because we had more shared values with them than we had with the Moslems. Under the cover of darkness, few men from our town went to the border, flagged down an Israeli boarder patrol, explained the situation and begged for help.

 

Israel agreed to help the Christians. Israel became our lifeline. The Israeli military would come during the night and bring food and ammunition to the military and milk for the children. They would take the Christian men anyone from age 13 to 70 and train them to fight; most of them have never held a rifle before. Most of the Christian men had degrees that decorated their walls, but all the degrees in the world can not defend you when an enemy is facing you with a gun, wanting to kill you by what your enemy believes is an order from God.

 

The only reason we stayed alive is because Israel came into Lebanon and drove the Muslims away from the surrounding hills and set up positions in our town to protect us. Things got worse as Syrian, Libyans, Iranians Egyptians became enraged and flocked into Lebanon to fight the infidel Christians and Jews.

 

The Muslims had one vision, to take control of the only Christian country in the Middle East and than attack Israel. Syria, with its military already suffocating the Christians, Iran with its militia Hezbollah,  The PLO with the number one world terrorist Yasser Arafat, and all the other Muslim zealots on a holly mission, were using Lebanon as a terrorist breeding ground exporting terrorism into the rest of the world. Under the auspices of a peacekeeping force in Lebanon Syria shelled Israel along with Hezbollah the Iranian financed holly warriors.  The world press which was getting its information from the Muslim controlled areas in Beirut were saying that Israel is occupying Lebanon and the poor Lebanese were fighting back to kick the Israelis out.

By 1982 Israel was fed up with Syria’s repeated attacks on its northern boarder. They invaded Lebanon declaring war on the terrorist infrastructure, going all the way into Beirut. During the first two days of the invasion as the Muslims were retreating they shelled us frantically. In their last artillery barrage, they scored a direct hit on the front of our bomb shelter. My mother was seriously wounded and would die without immediate medical attention. My father was too old and weak to take her to the hospital, the responsibility fell on my shoulder. We had to take her to Israel for treatment. For her it was a life saving experience. For me it was a life changing experience. It was my first lesson in the difference between the Arabs and the western world particularly the Jews....."

 
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« Reply #37 on: August 15, 2005, 05:00:32 PM »

Reply to aserb:

At least the Serbs have the Russians. The Russians did come to the aid of their Slavic bretheren in 1914, and paid dearly for it.

In 1999, they failed to support the Serbs for two reasons, IMHO: They were too indebted to the West, and Yeltsin was too inebriated to pay much notice to Kosovo. Perhaps if Putin had been in power at that time...who knows?

PrinceMarko:

I believe our gap in communication here results from the fact that you're looking at intent, while I'm looking at outcomes. I'll grant you that Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 with the stated intent of coming to the aid of the Christian government. But the result was chaos, and further depredations for the Christian population in Lebanon. Hence, I don't think intentions count as much as results.

This dichotomy between intentions and results seems to be a common malady amongst the neoconservative set. To use another example: The U.S. may have invaded Iraq with the stated intent of establishing a democracy there. But the outcome is that we're establishing a Shiite theocracy under the control of Iran.

Don't believe me? Then read this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4141616.stm

Wow..the BBC.  Why dont you quote Jacque Chirac instead.  He's about as anti-american as the BBC is.   Do you believe everything the mainstream media feeds you?

The intent and outcome of the war in iraq are decided on for US interests.  And i fully support it. Saddam was a dispicable human being no matter how you want to paint him.  He aided hamas and IJ by giving them 25k for every suicide bomber. 93 wtc attackers held iraqi passports and fled to iraq.  Not to mention he was a menance to the entire region for 20 years. He had to go, there was no other option.
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« Reply #38 on: August 15, 2005, 05:20:02 PM »

during the civil war criminal acts were done by both sides, christian killed muslims and other christians and the same with muslims. It was slaughter. Why dont people tell stories of the "lebanese forces" militia group and the things they've done? Why only accuse muslims, i'm not protecting them but you should know the Jews also slaughtered palestinian refugees and muslims and christians killed each other. War is the most terrible thing there is may God keep it away from everyone and guard you in peace.
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« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2005, 12:31:17 PM »

"93 wtc attackers held iraqi passports and fled to iraq."

Bull. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

"Not to mention he was a menance to the entire region for 20 years."

Granted, Saddam was a menace to Iran and Kuwait - countries that, in my opinion, were not worth sacrificing a single American life to save.

"He had to go, there was no other option."

Certainly there were other options. The lack of WMDs in Iraq proves that the sanctions (though violated) prevented Saddam from obtaining WMDs.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 01:39:21 PM by Eugenio » Logged
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« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2005, 01:10:49 PM »

Looking back over the whole situation, what I find most ironic is that, when the Antiochian Council was first over, people on another list were saying how they were catering to conservative ex-Protestants (because of their withdrawal from the NCC). The document in this tread showed exactly the opposite. I have tried to not comment too much on the issue, but having let some time pass, I'm going to be blunt: as one of those conservative ex-Protestants, I consider the document a slap in the face, and essentially an indication that I'm not welcome at an Antiochian Church because of my views about Iraq. I simply refuse to accept that documents like this are double talk. Oh, Balamand didn't mean anything. Oh, the joint Orthodox-Catholic meetings don't mean anything. Poppycock. Why are we spending so much money and time holding them then? These meetings mean something. If they didn't want people following the documents they shouldn't publish them, they should just circulate them among bishops as indications of what was discussed. The present Antiochian document implies quite strongly that a certain view is not welcome in the Antiochian Church. Fine. I won't go to an Antiochian Church.  Cool
« Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 01:11:49 PM by Paradosis » Logged

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« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2005, 01:47:27 PM »

Paradosis, you wrote:

"As one of those conservative ex-Protestants, I consider the document a slap in the face, and essentially an indication that I'm not welcome at an Antiochian Church because of my views about Iraq."

I don't think it means you're not welcome in their church, Paradosis - it simply means you disagree with them on a given political issue. I have yet to find any church whose political viewpoint I accept unquestioningly - and to expect this, I think, is somewhat naive.

"The present Antiochian document implies quite strongly that a certain view is not welcome in the Antiochian Church. Fine. I won't go to an Antiochian Church."

Paradosis, maybe you should ask yourself a question first: Who founded the Antiochian Church? The answer: Arab Christians from Syria. So, we shouldn't be surprised if the political documents of the Antiochian church (self-ruling but not independent) reflects some biases and viewpoints similiar to those held by Arab Christians in Syria.

I'm not Arab. Nor am I Greek, but when I find that the Greek Orthodox Church, (of which I am a relatively new member), holds fervent opinions on Cyprus reunification of the name of the Macedonian Republic, I don't begrudge them for it, although these issues have little relevance for me.

I did not waltz into their church with the demand that its leadership change their geopolitical viewpoints to suit my pre-existing opinions. Nor am I demanding that they issue a document opining on the British occupation of Northern Ireland, though I have  75% Irish blood. Instead, as someone who has only been a member of the Greek Orthodox Church for 7 years, I'm still in listening mode, and I realize I have much still to learn about this new church culture which I signed up for 7 years ago.
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« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2005, 03:32:20 PM »

Eugenio

First, let me say that I'm not mad or bitter or anything. I just find it unfortunate. Two weeks ago I would have agreed with what you are saying. I was perfectly ready to attend the local Antiochian parish and talk with the priest and make sure that my political views were not going to be a problem. However, after having thought about it, I just don't know if I can do that in good conscience. The document (which the priest on another forum says was approved unanimously) said:

"AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that this Archdiocese will not be affiliated with those groups that support and promulgate these [‘and any’ (added by friendly amendment)] extreme positions, and that this Archdiocese will continue to witness to the Truth as received from our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, His Holy Apostles, the Holy Fathers and all of the saints and martyrs who have lived and died to uphold the Orthodox Faith"

So does this mean that the Antiochians are distancing themselves from entire groups, but not individuals? I mean, what do they say? They're position is supposedly "the witness to the Truth as received from our Lord Jesus Christ," over and against (by implication) those non-Truth following people who support pre-emptive war. Maybe I will go to an Antiochian parish, who knows. My last post, I think, was more about expressing a sentiment of frustration, that I am probably not alone in having. If it is a cultural/political thing, then that's perfectly fine. But if it is merely cultural/political, then they shouldn't label us "extreme," and put in a class with other people who support abortion and so forth, and speak as though their position is God-beloved and the opposite position is not. Perhaps I am just overreacting here though.
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« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2005, 09:39:34 AM »

"93 wtc attackers held iraqi passports and fled to iraq."

Bull. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11.

"Not to mention he was a menance to the entire region for 20 years."

Granted, Saddam was a menace to Iran and Kuwait - countries that, in my opinion, were not worth sacrificing a single American life to save.

"He had to go, there was no other option."

Certainly there were other options. The lack of WMDs in Iraq proves that the sanctions (though violated) prevented Saddam from obtaining WMDs.

who said saddam was involved with 9/11? i said 93 wtc attack. Ramzi Yousef had Iraqi passports and his cohorts FLED to iraq. Besides that.... If you were president of the US post 9/11, you'd make the SAME decision Bush did concerning Saddam. Remember that the Iraqi Liberation Act was LAW before bush was in office.

And, how do you want to explain this: http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/06/18/russia.warning/

MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russian intelligence services warned Washington several times that Saddam Hussein's regime planned terrorist attacks against the United States, President Vladimir Putin has said.

The warnings were provided after September 11, 2001 and before the start of the Iraqi war, Putin said Friday.

The planned attacks were targeted both inside and outside the United States, said Putin, who made the remarks during a visit to Kazakhstan.

However, Putin said there was no evidence that Saddam's regime was involved in any terrorist attacks.

"I can confirm that after the events of September 11, 2001, and up to the military operation in Iraq, Russian special services and Russian intelligence several times received ... information that official organs of Saddam's regime were preparing terrorist acts on the territory of the United States and beyond its borders, at U.S. military and civilian locations," Putin said.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2005, 09:46:39 AM by PrinceMarko » Logged
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