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Author Topic: Eastern Catholic vs. Western Orthodox?  (Read 41024 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #270 on: November 30, 2010, 05:10:23 PM »

^ oh, royalism.  Grin Well, I am with  ya there. I still pray for the King of Spain because I live in New Mexico.
Then why don't you pray for the Emperor of Mexico?
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« Reply #271 on: November 30, 2010, 05:46:32 PM »

If we are, we have quite a lot of company.

It's not a sin if everybody does it.

On a related note, it's nice how an authority is ordained by God if they kill the current king and take his throne, but if you kill the king and burn the throne then you are somehow Godless.

Actually, from what I have read, usurpers were not viewed kindly in Christian Roman history. Phocas, for example, did not appear to have public adulation as the God-crowned emperor after killing St. Maurice. And what did we get after/because of Phocas? Why, a disastrous war with Persia that created a power vacuum for Islam to emerge. Then there was Michael VII Paleologos who had the rightful emperor, the boy John IV Doukas Laskaris blinded and shipped to a monastery. He exiled Patriarch St. Arsenius who denounced him for this and for his disastrous Church policy following the misnamed "Council" of Lyons, and created a schism that was to last nearly 100 years together with many martyrs who gave their lives for the love of Jesus Christ at the hands of his troops. While these impious men and usurpers made images of themselves with halos (as was the custom) and were seen and prayed for at multiple church services, I doubt very much  if their pious contemporaries and subjects thought them to be the "elect" of God rather than the scourge of God. Same goes for all the heretical emperors.
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« Reply #272 on: November 30, 2010, 06:56:09 PM »

America *is* an English country, and yes - many in the UK do call it 'the Colonies'. Every time I go to the UK, I am guaranteed that at some point I'll hear America referred to as 'The Colonies', Americans and myself as 'Colonials' - which includes Canadians (I being UEL and a quarter Canadian ancestry).  And they have a point - we're the big one that got away - which explains some of the US/Canadian 'love-hate' thing. Not surprising for a colony that was primarily settled by non-inheriting second sons of English gentry, English debtors looking for opportunity to repay, 'excess population' of the British Isles, and those who were considered dangerous by the new regimes in England of Cromwell or the House of Hanover. But, regardless of anti-Americanism, or the more novel theories of American origins - we are still basically a 17th/18th c. product of English (and Scottish, Welsh, Cornish) society. All our early immigrants underwent the same process of Anglicization as their relatives who had migrated to Great Britain. The Huguenots, Palatine Germans - most of the non-English groups who migrated to America had also migrated to England during the same period. Some of them assimilated so well (such as the German Tolkien) that people think of them as English. This is nothing radical to admit (and, having been a radical once, it took me years to accept): we use the English tongue, though based upon older county dialects of England. We use English common law - everywhere but in Louisiana. The majority population is still English ancestry (even if they claim Irish or German primarily.)

Which is why a return to England feels so normal for Americans. It's 'Grandma's House'. We'd still be connected if it wasn't for the usurpation of a German king who didn't care, and an oligarchy who didn't care about their countrymen, not even in their own countryside or cities...let alone those who had ventured over the sea (or been shipped there.) For rural Southerners or rural New Englanders - it just isn't all that strange. Not like a visit to Mexico or Panama. For that matter: from a Southern perspective, Canada is stranger than England.

One can read American cultural historians such as David Hackett Fischer for more of the above: see "Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America." He could even explain why our elections have gone the way they have due to transplanted English cultures.
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« Reply #273 on: November 30, 2010, 07:13:31 PM »

Lol! You must spend a lot of time with Anglicans or ex-Anglicans as I don't know anyone else who would speak of the US as the colonies. And not many of them now either as the CofE becomes different to what it was.

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« Reply #274 on: November 30, 2010, 09:17:48 PM »

Lol! You must spend a lot of time with Anglicans or ex-Anglicans as I don't know anyone else who would speak of the US as the colonies. And not many of them now either as the CofE becomes different to what it was.

Father Peter

When I lived in Vienna virtually every Brit referred to me either as a Yank or a colonial, even though, technically, I'm neither.
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« Reply #275 on: December 01, 2010, 03:39:03 AM »

I have to say I find that very odd too because I have never referred to an American as a Yank and can't recall anyone else doing so either except perhaps an 80 year old talking of the war.
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« Reply #276 on: December 01, 2010, 05:01:22 AM »

My great-great-great-great-great-grandfather and namesake, a veteran of the Seven Years' War, fought on the Loyalist side in the Battle of Bennington in 1777. Alas the Patriot rebels won that battle, and after capture and a period of imprisonment, he fled to Canada, later returning to Vermont after the war. The family moved to northern New York State not long after, where I was born. My family originally came from Devon, southwest England.

So, yes, I consider myself a colonial  Wink
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« Reply #277 on: December 01, 2010, 08:39:24 AM »

I was affectionately called a Colonial in Devon just earlier this month by someone undeniably British.  I am also a United Empire Loyalist - and a descendant of Revolutionaries (many of whom were Jacobites.) I'm pretty average as far as the American population is concerned.
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« Reply #278 on: December 01, 2010, 09:07:05 AM »

I was affectionately called a Colonial in Devon just earlier this month by someone undeniably British.  I am also a United Empire Loyalist - and a descendant of Revolutionaries (many of whom were Jacobites.) I'm pretty average as far as the American population is concerned.

"Let's Give Ourselves Back to England"?  LOL
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« Reply #279 on: December 01, 2010, 09:11:01 AM »

Don't tempt us.  Wink I'd think England should find itself first.

"Haul away boys, let them go. Out in the wind and the rain and snow. We've lost more than we'll ever know 'Round the rocky shores of England" - Roots, Show of Hands
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« Reply #280 on: December 02, 2010, 03:31:02 AM »

I'll try to combine responses. First of all, the Liturgical Texts Project at Occidentalis has a lot of the items which were inquired into. It's here: http://tinyurl.com/rmp9q. Note especially the latest draft of the Ordinary and Canon of the Mass (awaiting publication as part of the full Missal) which is here: http://tinyurl.com/4acoa9.

Deacon Lance, I accept your apology. I don't have time to go into the extremely polemic site you quoted, but I would only point out that many of the statements which are lampooned or "shot down" in those polemical articles, are statements I never made, positions I've never held. I could go through the hatchet jobs sentence by sentence, but just no time.

There are .mp3 files of Sarum chants from my old parish's choir, here: http://tinyurl.com/2fbc5jj.

The reaction of St. Vladimir's emissaries to the liturgy at Constantinople, which impressed them so extremely favourably, is remarkably similar to the impression the Sarum Use made on people from other parts of the Christian West. If he had sent emissaries to Sarum, Russia might have wound up being Western rite. Actually, Western rite was used in early Rus', and the oldest Slavonic liturgical manuscript in existence, from Kiev, is a fragment of a WR Missal. Sts. Cyril and Methodius used Western rite as well as Eastern, in their work, and early Slavonic WR Missals which survive from the 12th century, are notably similar to the Sarum.

Pictures from a Sarum Mass of the form now approved for use in the Russian Church, may be viewed in Section 6 here: http://tinyurl.com/24knbov.

Because the few changes made between the earliest stage of the Sarum rite and its first appearance in books (early 13th c.) are so well-documented and clearly known, adjusting the Sarum use of the later books to reflect its original customs, is not much work and does not require any guesswork reconstruction. So although the books themselves are post-Schism, the rite as preserved and blessed in the Russian Church does in fact represent an intact Orthodox liturgy from the West, and one eminently suited, among other such intact Western liturgical forms, for Orthodox usage. "Eminently suited" because of its theological distinctives; practical for such usage due to its having full and clear rubrics, something distinctive of the Sarum.
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« Reply #281 on: December 02, 2010, 04:28:27 AM »

I forgot to mention that certain fonts need to be installed, for the Missal pages to view correctly. The fonts in question can be obtained here: http://tinyurl.com/gs5w6. There is a group for discussion of these liturgical matters and WR Orthodoxy in general, here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Occidentalis/. Someone asked how to keep up with developments, and one way is by following my blog: http://www.sarisburium.blogspot.com/.

Things are moving very quickly these days, regarding Western Rite in the Russian Church. A new monastery is indeed in formation in the U.S., and formation of a second new WR monastery, in the U.S., is under discussion. One thing it looks like I may be doing, is training some of the new WR clergy in how to serve. It remains to be seen what will result from it all. I'm watching history happen. I am grateful to God.

Perhaps one more point about Western rite: While at least one great Orthodox Saint of modern times has favoured it, no Saint has disapproved of it. "A Saint said so" is not exactly a watertight "proof" in Orthodoxy, but is does compel our prayerful consideration and/or re-consideration. Especially when that Saint (St. John Maximovitch) is an accomplished theologian.
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« Reply #282 on: December 02, 2010, 01:25:36 PM »

St. Tikhon the Enlightener of America, St. Raphael of Brooklyn and St. Nicholas of Japan have all favored the Western Rite as well.
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« Reply #283 on: December 02, 2010, 02:29:17 PM »

^ oh, royalism.  Grin Well, I am with  ya there. I still pray for the King of Spain because I live in New Mexico.
Then why don't you pray for the Emperor of Mexico?
Which one?
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« Reply #284 on: December 02, 2010, 02:49:53 PM »

St. Tikhon the Enlightener of America, St. Raphael of Brooklyn and St. Nicholas of Japan have all favored the Western Rite as well.

What is the connection with St. Nicholas of Japan?

In addition, St. Gorazd the New Martyr, was a bishop over Western and Eastern Rite churches. Before the Nazis, Western Rite was fairly widespread in Poland and Czechoslovakia.
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« Reply #285 on: December 02, 2010, 03:18:48 PM »

In addition, St. Gorazd the New Martyr, was a bishop over Western and Eastern Rite churches. Before the Nazis, Western Rite was fairly widespread in Poland and Czechoslovakia.

Did St. Gorazd himself celebrate a mass? Has there been any attempts or interest to revive Western rite in these local churches?
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« Reply #286 on: December 02, 2010, 03:31:17 PM »

Did St. Gorazd himself celebrate a mass?

Yes.

Has there been any attempts or interest to revive Western rite in these local churches?

No, not really.
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« Reply #287 on: December 02, 2010, 04:49:23 PM »

Fr. Aidan, is it true that the prayer book you all put out has sacred heart devotions in it?

By the way, the Sarum chant links were very nicely done. Care if I maybe use one to make a video for YouTube?
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« Reply #288 on: December 02, 2010, 04:55:11 PM »

Fr. Aidan, is it true that the prayer book you all put out has sacred heart devotions in it?

Quote from: Fr. Aidan
Many in America are converts to the Orthodox Faith and may keep Sacred Heart images in their homes, as literal baggage from their pre-Orthodox days. Also, well-meaning friends may give Sacred Heart prayers or images as gifts. The faithful should replace all such images with genuine Orthodox icons. They should not place Sacred Heart images, or any other non-Orthodox images, in their icon corners.
Source: http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/SacredHeart.html
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« Reply #289 on: December 02, 2010, 05:27:04 PM »

Fr. Aidan, is it true that the prayer book you all put out has sacred heart devotions in it?

By the way, the Sarum chant links were very nicely done. Care if I maybe use one to make a video for YouTube?

Orthodox Prayers from Old England which Fr. Aidan put out does not have any Sacred Heard devotions--such things were not done in pre-schism England.

There is a prayer book put out by Lancelot Andrewes Press, the St. Ambrose Prayerbook (not to be confused with the St. Ambrose Hymnal) which has a sort of "edited/corrected" devotion to the Sacred Heart, IIRC. I can't remember if this publication is intended for Orthodox use in its entirety since the press publishes things for a wide audience of traditional Western Christians--Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, etc. There has yet to me, to my knowledge, an available Western Rite Orthodox prayerbook comparable to an ER horologion or Jordanville prayerbook. The ones I have are from Roman Catholic or Anglican sources and need a bit of editing. Some LAP books need more editing than others.
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« Reply #290 on: December 02, 2010, 07:09:36 PM »

There is indeed a Western rite Orthodox prayer book comparable to, except far more complete than, the Jordanville Prayerbook. It contains no Sacred Heart devotions; that would be an Antiochian book. Here is the information on the Prayer Book, from a recent post to the Orthodox Indiana list:

"We're approaching pre-Christmas, so I'm offering a discount on "Orthodox Prayers of Old England"--a hardbound prayer book of Western rite prayers and services approved by Metr. Hilarion for use in the Russian Orthodox Church in 2008. Discount expires Jan. 7, 2011.

To acquire a copy please send a cheque/money order for $35 (postpaid), payable to St. John Cassian Press, to St. John Cassian Press, P.O. Box 10692, Austin, TX 78766 USA. Multiple copies are $35 apiece. Contact me privately if it's an international order; postage is higher.

Orthodox Prayers of Old England is an amazingly complete and traditional Western rite Orthodox prayer book with 440 6" x 9" pages Smythe-sewn and hardbound in imitation blue leather with gold stamping on the front and spine.

CONTENTS
- Basic Prayers, Morning Prayers, and Evening Prayers
- Table Blessings
- Reverences in Church
- Preparation for Holy Communion
- Vespers for Sat., Sun., Mon., Tues., Wed., Thur., Fri.
- Compline (for reg. days and feasts of the Mother of God)
- Sunday Matins
- Third, Sixth, Ninth Hours
- Sun. Water Blessing, Sprinkling, and Procession with Bidding Prayers
- Divine Liturgy (Sarum Liturgy, incl. Hierarchical items) + Bread
Blessing
- Thanksgiving after Holy Communion
- Notes About the Liturgy (patristic sources of the prayers, spiritual
interpretation)
- Presanctified (for Lenten weekdays)
- Missa Sicca (Western Rite Typika or Obednitsa)
- Litanies of the Virgin Mother of God and of the Saints
- Salutations Before the Holy Cross
- Prayers of Remembrance (memoriser or intercession)
- Seven Penitential Psalms and Fifteen Gradual Psalms

- Little Office of the Virgin
- Little Office of the Guardian Angel

- Blessing of New Mothers (churching)
- Order of the Catechumenate / Holy Baptism / Chrismation / Tonsure
- Repentance (explanations)
- Guide to Confession (extremely complete examination of conscience)
- Order of Confession
- Betrothals (wedding service)
- Service for Travellers
- Holy Unction (20 pages long)
- Prayers for the Dying
- Vigils of the Dead (Vespers & Matins)
- Commendation of Souls (sung before every Requiem)
- Requiem Liturgy
- Burial of the Dead

- Prayers for Various Occasions
1. Prayers for Those in the Church
Prayer of a Pastor and for a Pastor and Archpastor
Prayer for the Faithful (2)
Prayer for a Monastery
Prayer for Unity
Prayer for Catechumens

2. Prayers for Family & Friends, including:
For Those in Heresy / Schism; in Judaism; in Paganism
Prayer for a Living Friend
Prayer for God's Guidance
Prayer for One Sick or Afflicted
Prayers for the Sick and for Taking Medicine
Prayer for a Pregnant Woman

3. Prayer for Benefactors
4. Prayers for Prisoners
5. For All Living & Dead

Prayers in Time of Trouble
- Against Evil Thoughts and Against Temptations of the Flesh
- Against Thunderstorms, Tornadoes, Lightning, and Gossip
- Against Destroyers of the Church and for the Holy Land
- In Time of War and For Peace & Reconciliation

Prayers for Travel
Prayers for Good Death
Prayers for Fasting Days

Occasional Prayers
- For the Kingdom of Heaven (describes heaven - beautiful!)
- For True Love; for Faith, Hope, and Charity; for Chastity
- For Wisdom; for True Peace; for the Virtues; for Spiritual Life
- For Indwelling of the Holy Spirit; for Courage at Night
- For Rain; for the Crops; for Animals; for Sick Animals
- For God's Protection—the Breastplate Prayers

Missa Sicca of Thanksgiving
Prayers to the Holy Trinity

Prayers to the Mother of God (many); Holy Angels (many); Patriarchs & Prophets (many); Holy Apostles (many); Holy Martyrs (many); Holy Confessors (many); and Holy Women of the Lord

Prayer When One is Sick
Prayer for Protection from Enemies
Prayers of Repentance
Prayer of Exorcism of Pope St. Leo III

Order of Reading the Holy Scriptures (prayers before reading)
Abbreviations for Books of Scripture
Read the Whole Bible in a Year (schedule with deuterocanonicals)
Weekly Psalter Readings (150 psalms per week, includes the canticles)
- compares Massoretic and Vulgate/Septuagint numbering in a clear
way
How to Make Singing Breads (prosphora recipe, prayers)
Fasts and Feasts (explains the fullness of the old Western traditions)
Little Calendar (gives a Saint for each day of year, Western cycle)
Eight Tones (gives psalm tones and musical notation)
Very Complete Indices, etc., etc.

With two exceptions (Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and Jesus Prayer), everything is from the old tradition of the Western church.

In 2002, a copy of this beautiful volume sold for over $300 on eBay.

The publication is thanks to the generosity of an anonymous benefactor in the OCA. The project which resulted in this book was fostered, inspired, and guided by Bishop Jerome of Manhattan, Russian Church Outside Russia.

Fr. Hieromonk Aidan+  cell 512 696 6890
Holy Protection Church (ROCOR), Austin, Texas
http://www.orthodoxaustin.org "
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« Reply #291 on: December 02, 2010, 07:12:19 PM »

Oops, forgot to include the graphic of the book. One of these sold a few years ago on eBay for over $300. But they really are on sale for $35 postpaid.



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« Reply #292 on: December 02, 2010, 07:20:43 PM »

Alveus, thank you. You are welcome to use those music files for your Youtube. If you can work in an attribution, it would be good. I guess St. Xenia Choir, Fr. Aidan Keller directing, or... I don't know. Not picky. The parish doesn't exist anymore, its people having been absorbed into canonical Orthodoxy.

Oh, one more point. There actually is no connection between St. Nicholas of Japan and the Western rite, except for some vague statement the Saint once made, that the obstacle to the Anglicans being Orthodox is not so much their liturgy as their mindset, or some such. He never endorsed, approved, or favoured Western rite, as far as anyone can tell. It's a myth, like the concept that the Russian Orthodox Church approved the Book of Common Prayer rite for worship some time early in the 20th century. The first approval actually came in 1997.
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« Reply #293 on: December 02, 2010, 11:15:25 PM »


What is the connection with St. Nicholas of Japan?


St. Nicholas (Archbishop Nickolai) "Equal to the Apostles" of the Haristos Sei Kyo Kwai (The Orthodox Church in Japan) was Vice President of the "Anglican and Eastern-Orthodox Churches Union" in Japan and was very supportive of making adaptations of the Book of Common Prayer for Orthodox usage.

Contrary to what Fr. Aidan says Wink

Also, Fr. Aidan, to my knowledge the Antiochian church has issued no such prayer book containing the Sacred Heart devotions.  The only one that I know of is the St. Ambrose prayer book already mentioned, which is put out by Lancelot Andrewes Press.
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« Reply #294 on: December 03, 2010, 01:23:29 AM »

Sleeper (sorry, I don't know what your Christian name is), how do you come by this information? Since St. Nikolai lived so long ago, and you can't have known him personally, who or what informed you of his supportiveness? If it was an oral transmitter of history, what is the person's name who transmitted? If it was from some written documentation, what is that documentation and how could someone like myself obtain it and read it?

The distinction between an Antiochian prayer book, and a prayer book published by Antiochians, is duly noted, with my apologies.
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« Reply #295 on: December 03, 2010, 10:40:15 AM »

I gleaned this information from an article written in 1912 (the year of St. Nicholas' death) about the events of 1909 written by the Secretary of the "Anglican and Eastern Orthodox Churches Union," the Rev. Charles Filkins Sweet, which you can read online here: http://anglicanhistory.org/orthodoxy/sweet_attempt1912.html

It explains that St. Nicholas (Nicolai) was convinced that the Anglican-Episcopal Church was seeking "corporate submission" to the Orthodox Church and so he wrote up a response on what would need to be done to achieve this goal.  And to me, the most telling part, is that just as St. Tikhon, St. Nicholas did not outright object to some use of the Book of Common Prayer.  Sweet says, "I was aware that the objections he made towards Anglican teaching gathered around the sacramental system; and they were quite practical, relating not so much to to the language or meaning of the English Prayer Book as to the practical apprehension in daily life by Anglicans of the need of sacramental grace."  The issue, for St. Nicholas was not the Book of Common Prayer, but was the fact that Anglicans did not recognize the sacraments.  Sweet goes on to say, "It is astonishing to see that the sole reason advanced for not making this recognition is the fact that the English Church does not teach unqualifiedly that there are seven sacraments."

In fact, St. Nicholas goes on to directly approve of the Book of Common Prayer's rite for Ordination.  When asked if the Orthodox response to Ordination should be to reject it because of its different wording, St. Nicholas says, "No, I believe that such a conclusion would not be free from blame as a hasty judgment..." and went on to say, "We do not find that according to this discussion upon the general subject that there is any reason to disapprove the Holy Orders of the Sei Ko Kwai from the point of the external aspect of anshurei (ordination), or as regards the outward ceremony, which is the first part of the fundamental or necessary property of Ordination."

The trouble with it all was that, just as the Holy Russian Synod found, the Prayer Book's "39 Articles" were of no use whatsoever, and the Sei Ko Kwai could not let them go.

You might reject this as a "vague" attempt at saying St. Nicholas of Japan was supportive of some form of Orthodox use of the Book of Common Prayer (and the Western Rite in general), but I think it's quite telling that he did not demand these Western converts become Byzantine Orthodox and actually took the time to examine their book. People say the same thing about St. Tikhon as well, as if because of the fact that we don't have a written record of a deliberate statement of approval, we should just ignore his actions and the trouble he went through to have the Prayer Book analyzed and to even note the simple fact that he wasn't opposed to it at all.
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« Reply #296 on: December 03, 2010, 11:17:13 AM »

Oops, forgot to include the graphic of the book. One of these sold a few years ago on eBay for over $300. But they really are on sale for $35 postpaid.




It's amazing how often that happens on eBay. "Let the buyer beware!" I've seen the Old Orthodox Prayer book being offered at an $80 initial bid--more than double its new price; the same with the Antiochian Liturgikon; and a volume of the Holy Apostles Convent edition of the Great Synaxaristes was being sold for an opening bid of more than $100 (it costs $45-55 per volume from a number of sources), to name just a couple of recent examples. It always pays to check other sources before bidding. (On the other hand, there was a recent auction of the HTM Horologion for just $30.)

Sorry for the detour from the discussion.
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« Reply #297 on: December 05, 2010, 09:14:11 PM »

There is indeed a Western rite Orthodox prayer book comparable to, except far more complete than, the Jordanville Prayerbook. It contains no Sacred Heart devotions; that would be an Antiochian book. Here is the information on the Prayer Book, from a recent post to the Orthodox Indiana list:

"We're approaching pre-Christmas, so I'm offering a discount on "Orthodox Prayers of Old England"--a hardbound prayer book of Western rite prayers and services approved by Metr. Hilarion for use in the Russian Orthodox Church in 2008. Discount expires Jan. 7, 2011.

To acquire a copy please send a cheque/money order for $35 (postpaid), payable to St. John Cassian Press, to St. John Cassian Press, P.O. Box 10692, Austin, TX 78766 USA. Multiple copies are $35 apiece. Contact me privately if it's an international order; postage is higher.

Orthodox Prayers of Old England is an amazingly complete and traditional Western rite Orthodox prayer book with 440 6" x 9" pages Smythe-sewn and hardbound in imitation blue leather with gold stamping on the front and spine.

CONTENTS
- Basic Prayers, Morning Prayers, and Evening Prayers
- Table Blessings
- Reverences in Church
- Preparation for Holy Communion
- Vespers for Sat., Sun., Mon., Tues., Wed., Thur., Fri.
- Compline (for reg. days and feasts of the Mother of God)
- Sunday Matins
- Third, Sixth, Ninth Hours
- Sun. Water Blessing, Sprinkling, and Procession with Bidding Prayers
- Divine Liturgy (Sarum Liturgy, incl. Hierarchical items) + Bread
Blessing
- Thanksgiving after Holy Communion
- Notes About the Liturgy (patristic sources of the prayers, spiritual
interpretation)
- Presanctified (for Lenten weekdays)
- Missa Sicca (Western Rite Typika or Obednitsa)
- Litanies of the Virgin Mother of God and of the Saints
- Salutations Before the Holy Cross
- Prayers of Remembrance (memoriser or intercession)
- Seven Penitential Psalms and Fifteen Gradual Psalms

- Little Office of the Virgin
- Little Office of the Guardian Angel

- Blessing of New Mothers (churching)
- Order of the Catechumenate / Holy Baptism / Chrismation / Tonsure
- Repentance (explanations)
- Guide to Confession (extremely complete examination of conscience)
- Order of Confession
- Betrothals (wedding service)
- Service for Travellers
- Holy Unction (20 pages long)
- Prayers for the Dying
- Vigils of the Dead (Vespers & Matins)
- Commendation of Souls (sung before every Requiem)
- Requiem Liturgy
- Burial of the Dead

- Prayers for Various Occasions
1. Prayers for Those in the Church
Prayer of a Pastor and for a Pastor and Archpastor
Prayer for the Faithful (2)
Prayer for a Monastery
Prayer for Unity
Prayer for Catechumens

2. Prayers for Family & Friends, including:
For Those in Heresy / Schism; in Judaism; in Paganism
Prayer for a Living Friend
Prayer for God's Guidance
Prayer for One Sick or Afflicted
Prayers for the Sick and for Taking Medicine
Prayer for a Pregnant Woman

3. Prayer for Benefactors
4. Prayers for Prisoners
5. For All Living & Dead

Prayers in Time of Trouble
- Against Evil Thoughts and Against Temptations of the Flesh
- Against Thunderstorms, Tornadoes, Lightning, and Gossip
- Against Destroyers of the Church and for the Holy Land
- In Time of War and For Peace & Reconciliation

Prayers for Travel
Prayers for Good Death
Prayers for Fasting Days

Occasional Prayers
- For the Kingdom of Heaven (describes heaven - beautiful!)
- For True Love; for Faith, Hope, and Charity; for Chastity
- For Wisdom; for True Peace; for the Virtues; for Spiritual Life
- For Indwelling of the Holy Spirit; for Courage at Night
- For Rain; for the Crops; for Animals; for Sick Animals
- For God's Protection—the Breastplate Prayers

Missa Sicca of Thanksgiving
Prayers to the Holy Trinity

Prayers to the Mother of God (many); Holy Angels (many); Patriarchs & Prophets (many); Holy Apostles (many); Holy Martyrs (many); Holy Confessors (many); and Holy Women of the Lord

Prayer When One is Sick
Prayer for Protection from Enemies
Prayers of Repentance
Prayer of Exorcism of Pope St. Leo III

Order of Reading the Holy Scriptures (prayers before reading)
Abbreviations for Books of Scripture
Read the Whole Bible in a Year (schedule with deuterocanonicals)
Weekly Psalter Readings (150 psalms per week, includes the canticles)
- compares Massoretic and Vulgate/Septuagint numbering in a clear
way
How to Make Singing Breads (prosphora recipe, prayers)
Fasts and Feasts (explains the fullness of the old Western traditions)
Little Calendar (gives a Saint for each day of year, Western cycle)
Eight Tones (gives psalm tones and musical notation)
Very Complete Indices, etc., etc.

With two exceptions (Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and Jesus Prayer), everything is from the old tradition of the Western church.

In 2002, a copy of this beautiful volume sold for over $300 on eBay.

The publication is thanks to the generosity of an anonymous benefactor in the OCA. The project which resulted in this book was fostered, inspired, and guided by Bishop Jerome of Manhattan, Russian Church Outside Russia.

Fr. Hieromonk Aidan+  cell 512 696 6890
Holy Protection Church (ROCOR), Austin, Texas
http://www.orthodoxaustin.org "
Father bless,

I noticed on the All Merciful Savior website the book is listed as being available there, too. Is that still the case and can it be ordered for $35? I really would like to order a copy of it some time soon. Sorry to detract from the topic any further!

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #298 on: December 06, 2010, 02:04:19 AM »

Curious..... Huh
Why would anyone want to resurrect these dead Western rites,They didn't work then for the people ,why would they work now..I say they should be buried deeper and cemented over to never see the light of day ...These western Rite Orthodox Churches are schisms just waiting to happen.....Eastern Orthodoxy is the way to go, not these western rites......
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« Reply #299 on: December 06, 2010, 02:19:59 AM »

Eastern Orthodoxy is the way to go, not these western rites...

I also think the resurrection of dead liturgies concept seems a bit ridiculous; too constructed for comfort. However, I disagree about Western rites in general. The Western liturgical tradition is beautiful and should not be destroyed. If Holy Orthodoxy can utilize many pagan features in converting the Serbian people, such as house gods being replaced with slavas or house patron saints, then surely she can make a few modifications to Western liturgies which survive and welcome them into the Church.
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« Reply #300 on: December 06, 2010, 02:31:38 AM »

Eastern Orthodoxy is the way to go, not these western rites...

I also think the resurrection of dead liturgies concept seems a bit ridiculous; too constructed for comfort. However, I disagree about Western rites in general. The Western liturgical tradition is beautiful and should not be destroyed. If Holy Orthodoxy can utilize many pagan features in converting the Serbian people, such as house gods being replaced with slavas or house patron saints, then surely she can make a few modifications to Western liturgies which survive and welcome them into the Church.

Why did they die out, if they were that good ..... ???Why did the Catholic Church kept changing these rites to newer ones they must of known the older ones weren't working....As a eastern Orthodox i admit im biased, can't see anything beyond eastern orthodoxy...
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« Reply #301 on: December 06, 2010, 03:39:58 AM »

Why did they die out, if they were that good ..... ???Why did the Catholic Church kept changing these rites to newer ones they must of known the older ones weren't working....As a eastern Orthodox i admit im biased, can't see anything beyond eastern orthodoxy...

No, I'm talking about the Western rites that didn't die out and are still in use. Besides, they were not "changed" in the way you're thinking, but many were suppressed and done away with for the sake of uniformity. Holy Orthodoxy is equally guilty of suppression and alterations or "changes" to the liturgy over the centuries. Modifications are typical, but the fundamental form remains. The same is true in the West. I believe it was our beloved St. John of San Francisco who said that the beautiful and venerable liturgies of the West and of Rome were far older than Rome's heresies. It doesn't take much modification to make them fully Orthodox, but I digress...
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« Reply #302 on: December 06, 2010, 03:55:57 AM »

Why did they die out, if they were that good ..... ???Why did the Catholic Church kept changing these rites to newer ones they must of known the older ones weren't working....As a eastern Orthodox i admit im biased, can't see anything beyond eastern orthodoxy...

No, I'm talking about the Western rites that didn't die out and are still in use. Besides, they were not "changed" in the way you're thinking, but many were suppressed and done away with for the sake of uniformity. Holy Orthodoxy is equally guilty of suppression and alterations or "changes" to the liturgy over the centuries. Modifications are typical, but the fundamental form remains. The same is true in the West. I believe it was our beloved St. John of San Francisco who said that the beautiful and venerable liturgies of the West and of Rome were far older than Rome's heresies. It doesn't take much modification to make them fully Orthodox, but I digress...

These rites that are in use ,who's celebrating or serving them ,,is it just a  few in monastery's..And which of the Catholic Countries or country is it that are serving them 24/7 365.....Or is it only on rare ocassions there served....Sorry im asking stupid questions i don't know much about them....The real reason i don't like them is they look to latin romanish....
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« Reply #303 on: December 06, 2010, 04:20:48 AM »

America *is* an English country, and yes - many in the UK do call it 'the Colonies'. Every time I go to the UK, I am guaranteed that at some point I'll hear America referred to as 'The Colonies', Americans and myself as 'Colonials' - which includes Canadians (I being UEL and a quarter Canadian ancestry).  And they have a point - we're the big one that got away - which explains some of the US/Canadian 'love-hate' thing. Not surprising for a colony that was primarily settled by non-inheriting second sons of English gentry, English debtors looking for opportunity to repay, 'excess population' of the British Isles, and those who were considered dangerous by the new regimes in England of Cromwell or the House of Hanover. But, regardless of anti-Americanism, or the more novel theories of American origins - we are still basically a 17th/18th c. product of English (and Scottish, Welsh, Cornish) society. All our early immigrants underwent the same process of Anglicization as their relatives who had migrated to Great Britain. The Huguenots, Palatine Germans - most of the non-English groups who migrated to America had also migrated to England during the same period. Some of them assimilated so well (such as the German Tolkien) that people think of them as English. This is nothing radical to admit (and, having been a radical once, it took me years to accept): we use the English tongue, though based upon older county dialects of England. We use English common law - everywhere but in Louisiana. The majority population is still English ancestry (even if they claim Irish or German primarily.)

Which is why a return to England feels so normal for Americans. It's 'Grandma's House'. We'd still be connected if it wasn't for the usurpation of a German king who didn't care, and an oligarchy who didn't care about their countrymen, not even in their own countryside or cities...let alone those who had ventured over the sea (or been shipped there.) For rural Southerners or rural New Englanders - it just isn't all that strange. Not like a visit to Mexico or Panama. For that matter: from a Southern perspective, Canada is stranger than England.

One can read American cultural historians such as David Hackett Fischer for more of the above: see "Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America." He could even explain why our elections have gone the way they have due to transplanted English cultures.

 I don't know which segment of the Southron population you polled, but the hill folk of Scots-Irish/Ulster-Scot ancestry would disagree with you about England feeling like "Grandma's House".  You may find the book Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Shaped America by James Webb helpful.
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« Reply #304 on: December 06, 2010, 05:00:01 AM »

America *is* an English country, and yes - many in the UK do call it 'the Colonies'. Every time I go to the UK, I am guaranteed that at some point I'll hear America referred to as 'The Colonies', Americans and myself as 'Colonials' - which includes Canadians (I being UEL and a quarter Canadian ancestry).  And they have a point - we're the big one that got away - which explains some of the US/Canadian 'love-hate' thing. Not surprising for a colony that was primarily settled by non-inheriting second sons of English gentry, English debtors looking for opportunity to repay, 'excess population' of the British Isles, and those who were considered dangerous by the new regimes in England of Cromwell or the House of Hanover. But, regardless of anti-Americanism, or the more novel theories of American origins - we are still basically a 17th/18th c. product of English (and Scottish, Welsh, Cornish) society. All our early immigrants underwent the same process of Anglicization as their relatives who had migrated to Great Britain. The Huguenots, Palatine Germans - most of the non-English groups who migrated to America had also migrated to England during the same period. Some of them assimilated so well (such as the German Tolkien) that people think of them as English. This is nothing radical to admit (and, having been a radical once, it took me years to accept): we use the English tongue, though based upon older county dialects of England. We use English common law - everywhere but in Louisiana. The majority population is still English ancestry (even if they claim Irish or German primarily.)

Which is why a return to England feels so normal for Americans. It's 'Grandma's House'. We'd still be connected if it wasn't for the usurpation of a German king who didn't care, and an oligarchy who didn't care about their countrymen, not even in their own countryside or cities...let alone those who had ventured over the sea (or been shipped there.) For rural Southerners or rural New Englanders - it just isn't all that strange. Not like a visit to Mexico or Panama. For that matter: from a Southern perspective, Canada is stranger than England.

One can read American cultural historians such as David Hackett Fischer for more of the above: see "Albion's Seed: Four British Folkways in America." He could even explain why our elections have gone the way they have due to transplanted English cultures.

 I don't know which segment of the Southron population you polled, but the hill folk of Scots-Irish/Ulster-Scot ancestry would disagree with you about England feeling like "Grandma's House".  You may find the book Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Shaped America by James Webb helpful.

Any person of Irish stock wanting to get a feel of the way the Irish see those across the Irish Sea should read through Leon Uris' "Trinity."
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« Reply #305 on: December 06, 2010, 08:28:13 AM »

As a eastern Orthodox i admit im biased, can't see anything beyond eastern orthodoxy...

Do you reject the Latin Orthodox Church Fathers and other Western Orthodox saints? And what do you make out of the fact that at some points in history Rome was the only orthodox patriarchate in the world?

These rites that are in use. . . The real reason i don't like them is they look to latin romanish....

Well, that's what they are: Latin rites and, most of them, variations of the Roman one.
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« Reply #306 on: December 06, 2010, 09:21:13 PM »

Lol! You must spend a lot of time with Anglicans or ex-Anglicans as I don't know anyone else who would speak of the US as the colonies. And not many of them now either as the CofE becomes different to what it was.

Father Peter

Well, this American Anglican has never referred the the US as "the colonies" I assure you. 


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« Reply #307 on: December 07, 2010, 07:06:38 PM »

Sleeper, in what you provided, there is absolutely nothing which indicates St. Nicholas favored, approved of, or authorized the use, as an Orthodox liturgy, of the Protestant Book of Common Prayer eucharist. His having advanced only one objection to corporate merging or union/submission, that the Anglicans did not accept seven sacraments, need not imply that there were not other objections in his mind or which would have had to be discussed had negotiations actually progressed. He was simply being economical.

If one concludes, from St. Nikolai's concentration on the one topic of believing in seven sacraments, that he therefore approved of the Book of Common Prayer, then we must likewise conclude that St. Nikolai approved of married bishops, approved of making the sign of the cross left to right, approved venerating post-schism Western saints, approved the idea that the monarch is the head of the church... all of the above is quite a stretch!
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« Reply #308 on: December 07, 2010, 07:23:31 PM »

In fact, we should also have to conclude that St. Nikolai favored having parishes where icons are never venerated and where confession need never be made, of one's sins, to a priest (since believing in that sacrament's existence and availability is distinct from requiring confession be made).

But St. Nikolai seems never to have actually stated any of these things. St. John Maximovitch certainly loved and favored the establishment of Western rite, himself celebrated it, and, according to Archimandrite Alexey Young, wished to deepen the orthopraxis of the liturgical life of the Western rite churches as this became possible. One way in which this vision of Western rite can be actualised, is through the Sarum Use of the Roman rite.
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« Reply #309 on: December 07, 2010, 08:12:45 PM »

Interesting.  There actually seems to be quite a bit demonstrating his interest in, and support of, a rite based off the BCP.  And no mention of Sarum or other rites at all...
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« Reply #310 on: December 08, 2010, 02:41:20 AM »

Sleeper, if you have something which would show that St. Nikolai was interested in having a BCP rite in the Orthodox Church, by all means share it with us here. Certainly in what you posted previously, there is nothing of that sort.

I am puzzled at the statement that St. Nikolai made "no mention of Sarum or other rites." No one has implied he did. And why would he have? I don't understand the point being made.

Several websites have propounded a mythology or two, with the apparent aim of giving the Western rite a boost. One mythology relates to St. Nikolai (although, I admit, something may surface at some point which DOES reveal that he endorsed this very thing; I'm not denying the possibility, just pointing out the absence of any reason to believe it). Another mythology revolves around claims that in 1907 the Russian Orthodox Church approved the BCP rite for Orthodox usage. There is no more objective evidence for the second, than there is for the first. I suppose another mythology which could be named is the one which posits that St. Tikhon approved of using the BCP (adjusted) as an Orthodox rite. There's zero evidence for that one as well. And yet these things are believed in and repeated by a substantial number of unwitting people. I hope the creation of unneeded mythologies to help the Western rite along, will not in the end serve to hurt it.

I should expand on what I said about the Sarum Use of the Roman rite, which is blessed for celebration in the Russian Orthodox Church. It's Fr. Ambrose Young, who knew St. John Maximovitch, who states that St. John wished to deepen the orthopraxis of the Western rite communities over time, as circumstances would allow. Fr. Augustine, a monk of the Greek Archdiocese and spiritual son of Fr. Ambrose, has often spoken publicly about this. Fr. Augustine has said that Fr. Ambrose is appreciative of the Sarum fullness as representing one way in which St. John's vision for Western rite can be realised today. That does not, of course, mean it's the only way St. John's vision can be realised. I hope I've put this clearly.
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« Reply #311 on: December 08, 2010, 07:22:41 AM »

    Sleeper, if you have something which would show that St. Nikolai was interested in having a BCP rite in the Orthodox Church, by all means share it with us here. Certainly in what you posted previously, there is nothing of that sort.

    I am puzzled at the statement that St. Nikolai made "no mention of Sarum or other rites." No one has implied he did. And why would he have? I don't understand the point being made.

    Several websites have propounded a mythology or two, with the apparent aim of giving the Western rite a boost. One mythology relates to St. Nikolai (although, I admit, something may surface at some point which DOES reveal that he endorsed this very thing; I'm not denying the possibility, just pointing out the absence of any reason to believe it). Another mythology revolves around claims that in 1907 the Russian Orthodox Church approved the BCP rite for Orthodox usage. There is no more objective evidence for the second, than there is for the first. I suppose another mythology which could be named is the one which posits that St. Tikhon approved of using the BCP (adjusted) as an Orthodox rite. There's zero evidence for that one as well. And yet these things are believed in and repeated by a substantial number of unwitting people. I hope the creation of unneeded mythologies to help the Western rite along, will not in the end serve to hurt it.

    I should expand on what I said about the Sarum Use of the Roman rite, which is blessed for celebration in the Russian Orthodox Church. It's Fr. Ambrose Young, who knew St. John Maximovitch, who states that St. John wished to deepen the orthopraxis of the Western rite communities over time, as circumstances would allow. Fr. Augustine, a monk of the Greek Archdiocese and spiritual son of Fr. Ambrose, has often spoken publicly about this. Fr. Augustine has said that Fr. Ambrose is appreciative of the Sarum fullness as representing one way in which St. John's vision for Western rite can be realised today. That does not, of course, mean it's the only way St. John's vision can be realised. I hope I've put this clearly.

    Father bless.  I understand that there is a richness and diverseness of use in the Western-rite but for me I have some questions which I respectfully hope you can assist with.
    []
    [/list]With the Western rite being so small, isn't the multiplicity of rites - of liturgies or in western terminology masses used counter-productive to having some uniform standards?  
    • You have ROCOR WR clergy who quite disagree with you about St. Tikhon and the place of the Orthodox-ised BCP.  Can you assist the debate by pointing to the sources of why these are fiction rather than fact?
      How does the BCP 1549/1662 which to my ex-Church of England, Anglican eyes looks remarkably like the English and Sarum rites of the St. Colman Prayer Book/'Shorter' St. Colman Prayer Book in both the mass and matins and evensong be pre-schism?  I understand that one can add an Orthodox epiclesis etc but do you believe that the BCP mass in any version is very close to the pre-schism English/Sarum mass rite? Certainly the amalgamation of offices to form the English Matins and Evensong - combining Lauds and Prime and Vespers and Compline is clearly a Reformation innovation, again unless I am wrong?
      Some WR say that the WR persisted in Jerusalem, on Mt Athos and in Constantinople (maybe in the English guard of the Byzantine Emperor) until well after the Schism - maybe another 300 years plus.  Is this your understanding, and can you point to some sources?
      Do you believe the WR will be a homogeneous rite for those westerners of any land who want to be Orthodox but do not want to follow the majority rite, the Byzantine rite or do you believe that there will be National WR Churches - as in the French WR Orthodox Church, the English etc?.

    Sorry for so many questions, but as an ex-Anglican with a pretty clear understanding of the history of the English Church, and as a history major in medieval English history, the Sarum claims of the twenty-first century in some contemporary websites etc. seem more like the claims of 19th century romanticist  Anglo-Catholics.

    I think it perfectly OK to revive the western-rite for those who want that particular tradition, but it needs to be done acknowledging the reality of the Schism, the reality of post-Schism heterodoxy in England and should be grounded in historical evidence-based proofs. From the Sarum rite to the different Latin rites extant before the Schism is diversity, and much of it was - and remains to this day continental and not English.

      Is it not possible to simply pick up a pre 1054 Latin missal and breviary and translate into English - liturgical or modern rather than write new prayer-books, some of which are substantially based on English Reformation masses and offices written and re-formed hundreds of years after the Great Schism?
    « Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 07:24:45 AM by SubdeaconDavid » Logged

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    « Reply #312 on: December 08, 2010, 10:52:18 AM »

    Sleeper, if you have something which would show that St. Nikolai was interested in having a BCP rite in the Orthodox Church, by all means share it with us here. Certainly in what you posted previously, there is nothing of that sort.

    Agree to disagree I guess...

    Quote
    I am puzzled at the statement that St. Nikolai made "no mention of Sarum or other rites." No one has implied he did. And why would he have? I don't understand the point being made.

    The point is that the conversation and meetings took place.  I'm not so easily convinced, as you are, that this means absolutely nothing.  If you agree to meet with a group of people to discuss specific issues, it in the very least shows that you are willing to consider certain things.  The question is, why wouldn't St. Nicholas have just said, "Look, we'd love to discuss unity, but you have to understand that there's no way we can take your Prayer Book seriously.  If you desired to continue in some form of Western worship, it'd have to be pre-Schism, otherwise our Byzantine Rite is your only other option."

    I realize, Father, that there is nothing explicitly saying, "I approve."  But we just differ on the fact that I think St. Nicholas' words (few as they may be) and actions actually say a lot about the matter.

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    Another mythology revolves around claims that in 1907 the Russian Orthodox Church approved the BCP rite for Orthodox usage. There is no more objective evidence for the second, than there is for the first.

    I've not encountered this one before, that's interesting.  In any research or reading I've done I think it's safe to say that the BCP has never been, and never will be authorized for Orthodox usage.  The closest thing would be the Liturgy of St. Tikhon, which is sort of "inspired by" the BCP's eucharistic rite, but that's all that I'm aware of.  Are there parishes actually using the BCP?

    Quote
    I suppose another mythology which could be named is the one which posits that St. Tikhon approved of using the BCP (adjusted) as an Orthodox rite. There's zero evidence for that one as well.

    I have the same thing to say about this as I did with St. Nicholas.  I believe actions speak louder than words, and that what was not explicitly spoken can often be just as clear as what was.  And the approach you take, I'm sorry to say, really seems to me to be based on nothing but bias and prejudice.  The way that I would look at the facts (and what most have concluded) is that there is every reason in the world to believe St. Tikhon was supportive of this, and no reason to think otherwise.

    You might not be comfortable with asserting anything unless it has been spelled out for you, but that's not the way the world works.

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    I hope the creation of unneeded mythologies to help the Western rite along, will not in the end serve to hurt it.

    Here, we are in agreement.

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    I should expand on what I said about the Sarum Use of the Roman rite, which is blessed for celebration in the Russian Orthodox Church. It's Fr. Ambrose Young, who knew St. John Maximovitch, who states that St. John wished to deepen the orthopraxis of the Western rite communities over time, as circumstances would allow. Fr. Augustine, a monk of the Greek Archdiocese and spiritual son of Fr. Ambrose, has often spoken publicly about this. Fr. Augustine has said that Fr. Ambrose is appreciative of the Sarum fullness as representing one way in which St. John's vision for Western rite can be realised today. That does not, of course, mean it's the only way St. John's vision can be realised. I hope I've put this clearly.

    That's wonderful!  I'm grateful to God that you have a Western Rite that you love and find fulfilling. 
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    « Reply #313 on: December 08, 2010, 11:18:18 AM »

    With the Western rite being so small, isn't the multiplicity of rites - of liturgies or in western terminology masses used counter-productive to having some uniform standards?

    The early church enjoyed a great multiplicity of rites/liturgies and, I could be wrong, but was there really a concern over uniform standards?  What would really be accomplished by that anyway?

    Quote
    • You have ROCOR WR clergy who quite disagree with you about St. Tikhon and the place of the Orthodox-ised BCP.  Can you assist the debate by pointing to the sources of why these are fiction rather than fact?
    Oh, don't you know?  We don't have any statement from St. Tikhon that says, "I approve of an adjusted BCP for Orthodox usage."  We can't make informed, prayerful decisions based on anything less than explicit statements.
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    « Reply #314 on: December 08, 2010, 11:43:39 AM »

    With the Western rite being so small, isn't the multiplicity of rites - of liturgies or in western terminology masses used counter-productive to having some uniform standards?

    The early church enjoyed a great multiplicity of rites/liturgies and, I could be wrong, but was there really a concern over uniform standards?  What would really be accomplished by that anyway?

    There wasn't for the first few centuries, but the Church was under persecution and had bigger issues to deal with. But yes, after the Church was able to operate freely, the liturgy of St John Chrysostom became the universal standard, and the local rites (except for St James' in Jerusalem) were suppressed in favor of uniformity.

    I'm not personally against having a Western Rite, but I do think it needs to be uniform. For one thing, clergy can't easily concelebrate and the visitors can't easily participate if there is a multiplicity of Western Rites floating around out there. (Unfortunately, the modern ideal of "diversity" fragments society and caters to every little whim, when real strength comes through uniformity.)
    « Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 11:45:44 AM by bogdan » Logged
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