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Author Topic: Eastern Catholic vs. Western Orthodox?  (Read 38719 times) Average Rating: 0
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Fr.Aidan
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« Reply #225 on: November 29, 2010, 11:05:54 AM »

I'm afraid, Deacon Lance, that I must go back to your post of several days ago:

"Further, Fr. Aidan has been proved unreliable as to his scholarship concerning the Sarum Rite, as several Western Rite members of this forum can confirm."

First, why this overweening snideness and smugness? What impels you to write in a disrespectful, boorish, dismissive tone, about someone you've never even met?

Second, what specifically is "unreliable" about any aspect of my scholarship? This statement is not only snide, spiteful, and ill-mannered, it is also not backed up by any sort of factual content. If you feel there actually is something specific to sniff at, please tell what it is.

I have little experience on discussion fora where Eastern Catholic clergy take part. I'm hoping all Eastern Catholic clergy are not so rude.

I look forward to your reply.

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« Reply #226 on: November 29, 2010, 11:08:48 AM »

Dear Father Aidan, may I welcome you to this forum, and greet you as someone who was in contact with you many years ago.

Father Peter
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« Reply #227 on: November 29, 2010, 11:31:04 AM »

Thank you for your kind welcome, Fr. Peter. I do remember you from our previous discussions and I hope all is well with you and with your people.
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« Reply #228 on: November 29, 2010, 01:13:12 PM »

Michael Davies compared the 1549 BCP to the Novus Ordo Mass, with respect to the changes Cranmer and company made to the traditional English liturgy. Or put another way, the 1970 Novus Ordo mass was something of a Roman Catholic "Anglicanization" of the traditional Roman Missal

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/ordo.htm

I'm curious about how much pre-1549 is in the various Western Rite services. There's a Traditional Anglican Communion priest in France (former SSPX) who celebrates a variation of the Sarum Rite, but I don't know much about the version he uses.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 01:14:05 PM by John Larocque » Logged
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« Reply #229 on: November 29, 2010, 01:23:02 PM »

Father Aidan,

I would be very interested, if you have time, to read a description of the reasoning behind your commitment to a Western Rite, the reason you decided to work with the Sarum tradition, and the process you followed in producing the texts which you use.

I purchased your edition of the Western Rite some years ago and have benefited from it.

Father Peter
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« Reply #230 on: November 29, 2010, 02:33:53 PM »

Fr. Chadwick was the Anglo-Catholic/TAC priest I mentioned from an earlier post. There's a whole bunch of stuff at his site and TheAngloCatholic.com blog. Elements of TAC seem focused on reviving a pre-1549 Sarum liturgy.

http://www.theanglocatholic.com/2010/05/the-use-of-sarum-explained/

http://www.theanglocatholic.com/2010/05/sarum-answers-to-a-few-difficulties/

Quote
Everything, from the rood screen to the three-level sedelia and apparelled amices and albs, were restored at St Mary's Primrose Hill except the rite itself. It was never forgotten, but the Prayer Book was compulsory on pain of severe sanctions to the exclusion of any other rite. We should not forget that the English Missal was totally illegal in the Church of England and still is. It is not an Anglican rite, and is just as illegal as reviving Sarum. We in the TAC no longer suffer from those constraints, and there will be other constraints to "get round" or negotiate in the Ordinariates.

What about the translations? As I say, they exist. The Pearson version of 1868 is in print, but in a cheap paperback with the page edges glued to the spine. It cannot be used at the altar without breaking up after a short period of use. The Warren translation of 1911 is available here - Part 1 and Part 2. I found mine in a second-hand bookshop in England, but paid a steep price, more than L100. It can be OCR'ed and printed, and the readings can be copied in from the King James Bible. Everything is therefore as available as the English Missal (as a reprint). These translations are in Prayer Book language. Therefore, all the music com
posed for the Prayer Book Communion Service can be used with Sarum. There are no incompatibilities with traditional Anglican culture.

The greatest argument against the Use of Sarum is that of its having become obsolete, and therefore its revival would be an act of "archaeologism" and against the sound principles of liturgical tradition. I have already alluded to this above. It has not been in total disuse, since it has been celebrated occasionally in the nineteenth century. Why else would a book be published in 1868 that is not a purely academic critical edition like the Wickham Legg version of the early twentieth century? Within living memory, Fr. Sean Finnegan has done it in Oxford, Bishop Conti has done it in Glasgow. Some ACA parishes use it occasionally on a fairly regular basis (they use the English Missal the rest of the time), and I use it daily in my insignificant chapel...

Another serious misconception is the idea that the 1549 Prayer Book was simply a translation of the Sarum Use. It is not. The two rites simply need to be found here and compared: Sarum - 1549 Prayer Book. If you have any doubts, print them out and compare them side by side. A Prayer Book Eucharist is not Sarum because it is done "Dearmer style" or with "English" trappings.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2010, 02:37:36 PM by John Larocque » Logged
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« Reply #231 on: November 29, 2010, 02:52:03 PM »

Father Aidan,

I would be very interested, if you have time, to read a description of the reasoning behind your commitment to a Western Rite, the reason you decided to work with the Sarum tradition, and the process you followed in producing the texts which you use.

I purchased your edition of the Western Rite some years ago and have benefited from it.

Father Peter

One thing that seems confusing from all the discussions and comments on this thread is the degree to which Sarum Rite differs from other local variants, as well as how it differs. As I understand it--and this could be mistaken, which is why I'm asking--the main difference is in the rubrics. The basic text of the Mass was more or less the same, right? Maybe someone could give us a couple of examples of how the Catholic Mass would have differed if I'd attended St. Paul's in London in 1520 or Notre Dame in Paris or the Lateran in Rome in the same year?

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« Reply #232 on: November 29, 2010, 06:30:06 PM »

Hermogenes - I think you mean the 1662 - and it hasn't been the case that any editions have followed it: it is still the BCP in use by the CoE and approved by Parliament. An attempt was made by the Protestant faction to produce a prayer book in 1689 following the 'Comprehension' party - they wanted to make it safe for the Dissenters as well. The 'Toleration' party won out, and the BCP was not changed - the Dissenters were tolerated in their separate congregations. There was a second attempt in 1928 - which was led by the Anglo-Catholic wing - including the Little Hours, a 'retooled' liturgy (which the editors had tried to follow the Observations of the Russian Church for). This is the Book of Common Prayer of which is referred to in this passage by Fr. Michael Protopopov:
Quote
"During the 1920’s, the Anglicans were writing the New Book of Common Prayer; it was very Orthodox in its approach. Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky of blessed memory had even said that if the Anglicans were to accept the New Book of Common Prayer there would be very little separating the Orthodox and the Anglicans, and perhaps they could even be recognized as equal to ourselves. Unfortunately, they never did accept the New Book of Common Prayer, and therefore the unity between the two Churches never went ahead. However, the Anglicans still retained a great fondness for the Orthodox and supported us all the way through until Warrnambool 10 years ago."
The 1928 English BCP was accepted by the CoE (the last BCP in fact), but it was rejected by Parliament - an argument, I think, for getting government out of religion.
Since then, an 'Alternative Service Book', and 'Common Worship' have come out - but the 1662 remains the last one sanctioned by the CoE and Parliament both - in 1662. The 1928 is the last to be sanctioned by the CoE. I expect that will change.
There have been no attempts by the Orthodox to correct the 1662; only the 1928 American (which is from the Scottish tradition of BCPs) by the Antiochians, and the English liturgy largely of Sarum with portions borrowed from both the 1549 and 1718 Non-Jurors liturgy. The Russian version is primarily for congregations of converting Anglicans  - and leads to the Sarum and Mount Royal uses of the Roman rite (which we follow.)

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"We must begin at once to "build again the tabernacle which is fallen down, and to build again the ruins thereof, and to set it up;" for HE WHO GAVE THE THOUGHT IN OUR HEART HE LAID ALSO THE RESPONSIBILITY ON US THAT THIS THOUGHT SHOULD NOT REMAIN BARREN." - J.J. Overbeck, 1866
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« Reply #233 on: November 29, 2010, 06:39:55 PM »


One thing that seems confusing from all the discussions and comments on this thread is the degree to which Sarum Rite differs from other local variants, as well as how it differs. As I understand it--and this could be mistaken, which is why I'm asking--the main difference is in the rubrics. The basic text of the Mass was more or less the same, right? Maybe someone could give us a couple of examples of how the Catholic Mass would have differed if I'd attended St. Paul's in London in 1520 or Notre Dame in Paris or the Lateran in Rome in the same year?


That is because there is some confusion by academics regarding what is Sarum. The Sarum rite (ritum) refers to the books produced at Sarum and celebrated in that cathedral - and which was adopted wholesale in some places (such as Lichfield.) The Sarum use refers to books which follow the Sarum pattern, but which were adapted for local diocesan use: such as Aberdeen. It can also refer to how the Sarum liturgy was celebrated in attenuated form in English parish churches - which can differ to a great degree: from county to county, and from village to village. The term English use includes Sarum, and other English local uses which are markedly not Sarum: Durham or York, for instance - or Exeter. However, all of the English use rites and uses are simply part of a larger family in Northwest Europe: it is also how the liturgy was followed in France, the Low Countries, Germany and Scandinavia. This is due in no small part to the missionaries from Britain who evangelized the Continent, and continued contact after.

The whole of what makes a rite includes the ritual (the text), the ceremonial (how the rubrics are carried out), ornaments (vestments, fabric of the church), and music. As to details: the Sarum and other English and Northwest European rites were more conservative than their Southern European counterparts: older forms were retained. There was also a difference in life for the clergy: what eventually produced the Missal & Breviary in Rome. The busy life of Italian urban priests did not apply in Britain; which was primarily small village parish churches - more like our present missionary situation.
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« Reply #234 on: November 29, 2010, 07:31:18 PM »

Fr. Peter, I can easily do what you ask. I originally joined a monastic parish which used the Sarum for its regular worship. It wasn't so much that I decided to "go Sarum" (the farthest thing from my mind at the time!), but that I joined a parish, then the nearby monastery of several monastics, which happened to use the Sarum services. I found the worship to be uplifting, heavenly, and carried out by very sincere people, which appealed to me greatly. The parish and monastery were using the Sarum because they had been convinced this was a good thing, by Fr. John Shaw of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad. He provided initial impetus and occasional translations. Perhaps more importantly, it was he who convinced us not to do certain things which were of later Roman Catholic provenance--the use of the Eucharist in processions; the later-added elevations during the Canon; etc.

When at one point we had no one to read Latin or to be a "go-to" for historical liturgical process, I threw myself into the Latin language and began to acquaint myself with the original manuscripts. The more I learned, the more I realized what tremendous potential this Use of the Roman rite had, for missionary work. It must be borne in mind that the situation on the ground there, was never a "hothouse" in conception. I never had free rein in producing anything, many of my preferences were not blessed to be done, etc. Liturgical materials were evaluated in terms of historicity but with an eye to real and present pastoral concerns. At its height the parish there had over 50 attendees on a Sunday, and the whole congregation joined in on the main chants. The effect was quite powerful, the faith of the people quite sincere. Nothing was carried out for the sake of experiment. It was done soberly. As prior of the monastery, I introduced daily services, at first just Compline. Then we went to Vespers. Then Vespers and Compline. Then we added Matins. We sang Mass with full chant three to five times a week on average. We chanted the offices. The monastic life was carried out sincerely, if a bit in isolation from mainstream monastic centres of the Orthodox world. And the efforts to get canonical--which lasted years and years--form an entire story besides.

I saw that to do Sarum services every day was Orthodox, beautiful, practical, well-respected by those attending, ... it was everything that a Western rite in Orthodoxy should be. Of course, we had a "constituency" which was an even mix of converts from Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, other Protestant bodies, other religions, and little or no religion. There was no "base" to cater to, so we never had to tried to please anybody's BCP, or Tridentine, or other, predilections.

Almost all the objections well-meaning, pious Eastern Orthodox might have against the Western rite, were and are resolved by use of the Sarum services. Orthodox folk who could never have accepted a Protestant rite service or a Tridentine rite service as genuinely Orthodox, as natively Orthodox, found it easy to so accept the Sarum as it was preserved and celebrated in the old community. A GOA monk recently had a spirited discussion with another Greek monk who was dead-set against Western rite. When the first monk was able to show the second monk the treasures of the West's Orthodox period, from "Orthodox Prayers of Old England," the second monk checked it out and within about 15 minutes was persuaded that this Sarum rite Orthodoxy was a great and good thing. That's typical.

It should be pointed out that the Sarum Use had an Orthodox origin and ended up, historically, in the domain of heresy after the Schism of Rome. It is not a difficult task to correct for all the (very few) changes which occurred in the rite as a result of its contact with post-Schism currents in the Roman Catholic church. Once you do that, the result is something easily digestible to, acceptable by, venerable by, Orthodox folk as a whole. So I think the Sarum Use or something akin to it, is the future of WR in Orthodoxy. I am content to let it prevail by a process of natural selection (if you will) which may take centuries, rather than by wheedling anyone to use it or trying to get authorities to force anyone to use it.

About editorial process, I simply decided on the most rigorous historically-rooted editorial process that has ever been used for any Orthodox Western rite: only liturgical texts which were Sarum or from neighbouring dioceses, prior to the Reformation, could be considered for inclusion. Thus anything that came from continental uses was strictly excluded, as well as everything post-Reformation. In preparing new books for publication under the aegis of the ROCOR, my editorial methods have become even stricter and the documentation will be absolutely meticulous. Careful documentation of sources was impossible in some of the books I published as St. Hilarion Press, because of ecclesiastical obediences to the contrary. But now I can be as meticulous as I wish. This will be helpful, since some people, being ignorant of the liturgical manuscripts themselves, imagined all kinds of rite-mixing was going on. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Well, it may be that my toothache is preventing me from focusing and I'm rambling. I'll stop for now and resume the rambling later.
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« Reply #235 on: November 29, 2010, 07:37:37 PM »

Hermogenes - I think you mean the 1662 - and it hasn't been the case that any editions have followed it: it is still the BCP in use by the CoE and approved by Parliament. An attempt was made by the Protestant faction to produce a prayer book in 1689 following the 'Comprehension' party - they wanted to make it safe for the Dissenters as well. The 'Toleration' party won out, and the BCP was not changed - the Dissenters were tolerated in their separate congregations. There was a second attempt in 1928 - which was led by the Anglo-Catholic wing - including the Little Hours, a 'retooled' liturgy (which the editors had tried to follow the Observations of the Russian Church for). This is the Book of Common Prayer of which is referred to in this passage by Fr. Michael Protopopov:
Quote
"During the 1920’s, the Anglicans were writing the New Book of Common Prayer; it was very Orthodox in its approach. Metropolitan Anthony Khrapovitsky of blessed memory had even said that if the Anglicans were to accept the New Book of Common Prayer there would be very little separating the Orthodox and the Anglicans, and perhaps they could even be recognized as equal to ourselves. Unfortunately, they never did accept the New Book of Common Prayer, and therefore the unity between the two Churches never went ahead. However, the Anglicans still retained a great fondness for the Orthodox and supported us all the way through until Warrnambool 10 years ago."
The 1928 English BCP was accepted by the CoE (the last BCP in fact), but it was rejected by Parliament - an argument, I think, for getting government out of religion.
Since then, an 'Alternative Service Book', and 'Common Worship' have come out - but the 1662 remains the last one sanctioned by the CoE and Parliament both - in 1662. The 1928 is the last to be sanctioned by the CoE. I expect that will change.
There have been no attempts by the Orthodox to correct the 1662; only the 1928 American (which is from the Scottish tradition of BCPs) by the Antiochians, and the English liturgy largely of Sarum with portions borrowed from both the 1549 and 1718 Non-Jurors liturgy. The Russian version is primarily for congregations of converting Anglicans  - and leads to the Sarum and Mount Royal uses of the Roman rite (which we follow.)



I didn't think it could be exactly 1660, but I knew it was around then.

How do the 1662 and 1928 differ, besides in modernizing the language? Do they have different rites, or are the rites themselves much different?

There's also the Prayer Book of St. Augustine, which was approved by nobody I'm aware of (except the people who used it), and was basically a Catholic prayer book for Anglicans. Well, maybe more like the way an Eastern-Rite Catholic prayer book ressembles an Orthodox one. Very similar, but not identical. I had one as a kid.
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« Reply #236 on: November 29, 2010, 07:49:11 PM »

Fr. Peter, I can easily do what you ask. I originally joined a monastic parish which used the Sarum for its regular worship. It wasn't so much that I decided to "go Sarum" (the farthest thing from my mind at the time!), but that I joined a parish, then the nearby monastery of several monastics, which happened to use the Sarum services. I found the worship to be uplifting, heavenly, and carried out by very sincere people, which appealed to me greatly. The parish and monastery were using the Sarum because they had been convinced this was a good thing, by Fr. John Shaw of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad. He provided initial impetus and occasional translations. Perhaps more importantly, it was he who convinced us not to do certain things which were of later Roman Catholic provenance--the use of the Eucharist in processions; the later-added elevations during the Canon; etc.

When at one point we had no one to read Latin or to be a "go-to" for historical liturgical process, I threw myself into the Latin language and began to acquaint myself with the original manuscripts. The more I learned, the more I realized what tremendous potential this Use of the Roman rite had, for missionary work. It must be borne in mind that the situation on the ground there, was never a "hothouse" in conception. I never had free rein in producing anything, many of my preferences were not blessed to be done, etc. Liturgical materials were evaluated in terms of historicity but with an eye to real and present pastoral concerns. At its height the parish there had over 50 attendees on a Sunday, and the whole congregation joined in on the main chants. The effect was quite powerful, the faith of the people quite sincere. Nothing was carried out for the sake of experiment. It was done soberly. As prior of the monastery, I introduced daily services, at first just Compline. Then we went to Vespers. Then Vespers and Compline. Then we added Matins. We sang Mass with full chant three to five times a week on average. We chanted the offices. The monastic life was carried out sincerely, if a bit in isolation from mainstream monastic centres of the Orthodox world. And the efforts to get canonical--which lasted years and years--form an entire story besides.

I saw that to do Sarum services every day was Orthodox, beautiful, practical, well-respected by those attending, ... it was everything that a Western rite in Orthodoxy should be. Of course, we had a "constituency" which was an even mix of converts from Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism, other Protestant bodies, other religions, and little or no religion. There was no "base" to cater to, so we never had to tried to please anybody's BCP, or Tridentine, or other, predilections.

Almost all the objections well-meaning, pious Eastern Orthodox might have against the Western rite, were and are resolved by use of the Sarum services. Orthodox folk who could never have accepted a Protestant rite service or a Tridentine rite service as genuinely Orthodox, as natively Orthodox, found it easy to so accept the Sarum as it was preserved and celebrated in the old community. A GOA monk recently had a spirited discussion with another Greek monk who was dead-set against Western rite. When the first monk was able to show the second monk the treasures of the West's Orthodox period, from "Orthodox Prayers of Old England," the second monk checked it out and within about 15 minutes was persuaded that this Sarum rite Orthodoxy was a great and good thing. That's typical.

It should be pointed out that the Sarum Use had an Orthodox origin and ended up, historically, in the domain of heresy after the Schism of Rome. It is not a difficult task to correct for all the (very few) changes which occurred in the rite as a result of its contact with post-Schism currents in the Roman Catholic church. Once you do that, the result is something easily digestible to, acceptable by, venerable by, Orthodox folk as a whole. So I think the Sarum Use or something akin to it, is the future of WR in Orthodoxy. I am content to let it prevail by a process of natural selection (if you will) which may take centuries, rather than by wheedling anyone to use it or trying to get authorities to force anyone to use it.

About editorial process, I simply decided on the most rigorous historically-rooted editorial process that has ever been used for any Orthodox Western rite: only liturgical texts which were Sarum or from neighbouring dioceses, prior to the Reformation, could be considered for inclusion. Thus anything that came from continental uses was strictly excluded, as well as everything post-Reformation. In preparing new books for publication under the aegis of the ROCOR, my editorial methods have become even stricter and the documentation will be absolutely meticulous. Careful documentation of sources was impossible in some of the books I published as St. Hilarion Press, because of ecclesiastical obediences to the contrary. But now I can be as meticulous as I wish. This will be helpful, since some people, being ignorant of the liturgical manuscripts themselves, imagined all kinds of rite-mixing was going on. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Well, it may be that my toothache is preventing me from focusing and I'm rambling. I'll stop for now and resume the rambling later.

Fr. Aidan--where can I find a copy of the liturgy you do? Are they currently available? Is there a missal or breviary? Unfortunately, I have kind of a knee-jerk response when it comes to the Western Rite, but maybe I would have a similar experience to the GOA priest. Your post here is so reasonable and measured as to make me wish I knew more.

Sorry to hear about your tooth--I had a couple of hot teeth myself recently. May I presume to include you in my prayers?
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« Reply #237 on: November 29, 2010, 08:09:23 PM »

^ I am interested in something, Hermogenes.  In light of knowing a tree by the fruit it produces, what is it exactly about the Western Rite in practice that causes the knee-jerk reaction?  Have you seen its use produce bad fruit somewhere along the way?  Have the people you encountered who worship according to the Western Rite seemed less than Orthodox or spiritually malnourished?

I know its a generalization, but I've yet to have a conversation with someone who has said, "You know, I've spent the last 6 months attending a Western Rite parish and I've got to say, it's just missing the mark.  They're missing out on a lot and I'm concerned about their spiritual well-being.  I myself have noticed a marked shift in my spiritual welfare as a result of attending.  I can't wait to get back to the Byzantine Rite."

I know that's extreme, but so much energy is spent dealing with misinformation and misunderstandings and unfounded accusations (none of which I'm accusing you of!) and I just quite honestly don't think that's fair.

We can talk about the Western Rite in theory until our faces turn blue, but is that really going to accomplish anything?  In what other circumstances is it fair to pass judgment upon something, having never experienced it for oneself?

I don't mean to derail this thread.  Please carry on, but if anyone wants to add their thoughts to this, or their own personal experiences with the Western Rite (or even start a new thread if necessary) I'd be highly interested.
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« Reply #238 on: November 29, 2010, 08:20:19 PM »

I'm afraid, Deacon Lance, that I must go back to your post of several days ago:

"Further, Fr. Aidan has been proved unreliable as to his scholarship concerning the Sarum Rite, as several Western Rite members of this forum can confirm."

First, why this overweening snideness and smugness? What impels you to write in a disrespectful, boorish, dismissive tone, about someone you've never even met?

Second, what specifically is "unreliable" about any aspect of my scholarship? This statement is not only snide, spiteful, and ill-mannered, it is also not backed up by any sort of factual content. If you feel there actually is something specific to sniff at, please tell what it is.

I have little experience on discussion fora where Eastern Catholic clergy take part. I'm hoping all Eastern Catholic clergy are not so rude.

I look forward to your reply.

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Fr. Aidan,

Forgive me.  One can disagree with another’s scholarship without intending rudeness.  You were invoked as an authority which I do not believe you to be.  May I ask what University has granted you a degree in Liturgics?  As to what is unreliable, first would be the fact that your version is different from every other I have seen , second, I think Fr. Ben has already dealt with that here:

http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/04/unserious-criticisms-of-tridentine.html

http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/04/unserious-criticisms-of-tridentine_19.html

That is not to say your version is not beautiful or prayerful.

Fr. Deacon Lance  
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« Reply #239 on: November 29, 2010, 08:51:55 PM »


 As to what is unreliable, first would be the fact that your version is different from every other I have seen , second, I think Fr. Ben has already dealt with that here:

http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/04/unserious-criticisms-of-tridentine.html

http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/2006/04/unserious-criticisms-of-tridentine_19.html

That is not to say your version is not beautiful or prayerful.

Fr. Deacon Lance  



These articles are written by (the now Father) Benjamin Johnson.   Is he able to offer scholarly critiques of the Sarum Rite?  The Western Rite scholar Aristibule Drake Adams who writes on the forum questions whether Fr Ben Johnson is able to speak knowledgeably about the Sarum.

See his comments here:

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Sarum_Use/Archive_2

"The citations are provided. The English Liturgy is primarily based on the Sarum rite (including the Sarum canon) with some items from one BCP - the 1549 'Catholic' version, as well as the 1718 Non-Juror Usager liturgy (not a BCP liturgy), the York rite, the Gothic Missal - but not from any other BCP besides the original 1549. Those who do follow the BCP do not see it as a BCP or 'Anglican service'. The Roman rite was approved twice by the Russian Synod (and also by Constantinople) - no specific Use was required, and thus various local or monastic uses of the Roman rite have been used in the Russian Orthodox Church - all adapted according to the rules put forth by the Holy Synod (for that matter, not only is adaptation of the Roman rite and some BCP services - but also the Gallican/Celtic rite.) Any problem with it - take it up with Vladyka Hilarion whose project it was, and whose blessing it has. Or, with all sobriety: do contact Bishop Elect Fr. John R. Shaw and ask him the basis for the Western Rites in the Russian Orthodox Church (specifically the Sarum.) Fr. John R. Shaw is a valuable resource - and soon one of the Metropolitans vicar bishops. I do not think Fr. Benjamin Johnson and I agree often (nor have I heard from him in nearly a year), but I would not attack him as he is a member of the true Orthodox clergy. --Ari 11:35, August 26, 2008 (UTC) "

You will notice that Aristibule Adams mentions that Fr John Shaw, now Bishop Jerome of ROCA, is a valuable Sarum resource and of course it was Bishop Jerome who mentored and assisted Fr Aidan.
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« Reply #240 on: November 29, 2010, 09:03:23 PM »

Interesting history at that blog. I was scanning material hosted on Fr. Chadwick's site, which stated that it was Henry VIII and Edward who retired the York and Hereford in favour of Sarum. There was a Sarum-rite revival by Queen Mary. Most Anglo-Catholic historians will tell you that the 1549 BCP is not the Sarum rite, but Cranmer's revision of the rite in a Protestant direction.

Subsequent monarchs then obliterated all the older rites in favour of various flavours of the Book of Common Prayer. Anglo-Catholics had to make do with dressing up the existing BCP, because they were forbidden from celebrating from the actual pre-Cranmer text (Latin or translated  English).

Fr. Chadwick uses this reconstruction:
http://www.allmercifulsavior.com/Liturgy/Sarum.html

This web page of his links to a bunch of  resources including a Russian Orthodox version.
http://web.archive.org/web/20070208083242/http://www.orthodoxresurgence.co.uk/Petroc/sarum.htm

There's also a bunch of stuff on Wikipedia as well.
http://civitas.dei.pagesperso-orange.fr/sarum_index.htm


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« Reply #241 on: November 29, 2010, 09:08:34 PM »

^ I am interested in something, Hermogenes.  In light of knowing a tree by the fruit it produces, what is it exactly about the Western Rite in practice that causes the knee-jerk reaction?  Have you seen its use produce bad fruit somewhere along the way?  Have the people you encountered who worship according to the Western Rite seemed less than Orthodox or spiritually malnourished?

I know its a generalization, but I've yet to have a conversation with someone who has said, "You know, I've spent the last 6 months attending a Western Rite parish and I've got to say, it's just missing the mark.  They're missing out on a lot and I'm concerned about their spiritual well-being.  I myself have noticed a marked shift in my spiritual welfare as a result of attending.  I can't wait to get back to the Byzantine Rite."

I know that's extreme, but so much energy is spent dealing with misinformation and misunderstandings and unfounded accusations (none of which I'm accusing you of!) and I just quite honestly don't think that's fair.

We can talk about the Western Rite in theory until our faces turn blue, but is that really going to accomplish anything?  In what other circumstances is it fair to pass judgment upon something, having never experienced it for oneself?

I don't mean to derail this thread.  Please carry on, but if anyone wants to add their thoughts to this, or their own personal experiences with the Western Rite (or even start a new thread if necessary) I'd be highly interested.

When I ask why Western Rite, the most common answer I get, even from quite sophisticated people, is some variation of "I just like it better." It's a preference. I'm not saying we don't have a right to preferences, but it seems to me they are not the best determinants when we're dealing with spiritual truths. Even comments like, "It's so beautiful" seem irrelevant. In some cases, the people I've talked with had only ever attended the Western Rite.

I should say, I've been a member of a 12-step program for many years, and I remember in the beginning being told quite clearly that no one cared what I preferred or what I liked. They pointed out that I didn't have a very good record of preferring or liking things that were good for me. The same is true of all areas of my spiritual life. I need a guide, a director (or sponsor) who can help me see the good things I would do better to like and prefer.
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« Reply #242 on: November 29, 2010, 09:43:14 PM »

^ I am interested in something, Hermogenes.  In light of knowing a tree by the fruit it produces, what is it exactly about the Western Rite in practice that causes the knee-jerk reaction?  Have you seen its use produce bad fruit somewhere along the way?  Have the people you encountered who worship according to the Western Rite seemed less than Orthodox or spiritually malnourished?

I know its a generalization, but I've yet to have a conversation with someone who has said, "You know, I've spent the last 6 months attending a Western Rite parish and I've got to say, it's just missing the mark.  They're missing out on a lot and I'm concerned about their spiritual well-being.  I myself have noticed a marked shift in my spiritual welfare as a result of attending.  I can't wait to get back to the Byzantine Rite."

I know that's extreme, but so much energy is spent dealing with misinformation and misunderstandings and unfounded accusations (none of which I'm accusing you of!) and I just quite honestly don't think that's fair.

We can talk about the Western Rite in theory until our faces turn blue, but is that really going to accomplish anything?  In what other circumstances is it fair to pass judgment upon something, having never experienced it for oneself?

I don't mean to derail this thread.  Please carry on, but if anyone wants to add their thoughts to this, or their own personal experiences with the Western Rite (or even start a new thread if necessary) I'd be highly interested.

When I ask why Western Rite, the most common answer I get, even from quite sophisticated people, is some variation of "I just like it better." It's a preference. I'm not saying we don't have a right to preferences, but it seems to me they are not the best determinants when we're dealing with spiritual truths. Even comments like, "It's so beautiful" seem irrelevant. In some cases, the people I've talked with had only ever attended the Western Rite.

I should say, I've been a member of a 12-step program for many years, and I remember in the beginning being told quite clearly that no one cared what I preferred or what I liked. They pointed out that I didn't have a very good record of preferring or liking things that were good for me. The same is true of all areas of my spiritual life. I need a guide, a director (or sponsor) who can help me see the good things I would do better to like and prefer.

I see.  Thanks for responding.
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« Reply #243 on: November 29, 2010, 10:19:51 PM »

When I ask why Western Rite, the most common answer I get, even from quite sophisticated people, is some variation of "I just like it better." It's a preference. I'm not saying we don't have a right to preferences, but it seems to me they are not the best determinants when we're dealing with spiritual truths. Even comments like, "It's so beautiful" seem irrelevant.

And yet that is why St. Vladimir chose Byzantine Christianity.

"Then we went on to Greece, and the Greeks led us to the edifices where they worship their God, and we knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth. For on earth there is no such splendour or such beauty, and we are at a loss how to describe it. We know only that God dwells there among men, and their service is fairer than the ceremonies of other nations. For we cannot forget that beauty." Slav envoys to St. Vladimir

"Beauty will save the world." from The Idiot by Dostoyevsky
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« Reply #244 on: November 30, 2010, 12:34:45 AM »

When I ask why Western Rite, the most common answer I get, even from quite sophisticated people, is some variation of "I just like it better." It's a preference. I'm not saying we don't have a right to preferences, but it seems to me they are not the best determinants when we're dealing with spiritual truths. Even comments like, "It's so beautiful" seem irrelevant.

And yet that is why St. Vladimir chose Byzantine Christianity.

"Then we went on to Greece, and the Greeks led us to the edifices where they worship their God, and we knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth. For on earth there is no such splendour or such beauty, and we are at a loss how to describe it. We know only that God dwells there among men, and their service is fairer than the ceremonies of other nations. For we cannot forget that beauty." Slav envoys to St. Vladimir

"Beauty will save the world." from The Idiot by Dostoyevsky

Ah!  The Red Sun-Prince!   I believe he rejected Islam and Judaism and also the Western Rite, for various reasons.  The Western Rite was rejected for the reason you give from Dostoyevsky,  IIRC.
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« Reply #245 on: November 30, 2010, 01:07:36 AM »

Ah!  The Red Sun-Prince!   I believe he rejected Islam and Judaism and also the Western Rite, for various reasons.  The Western Rite was rejected for the reason you give from Dostoyevsky,  IIRC.

The envoys reported: "When we journeyed among the Bulgars, we beheld how they worship in their temple, called a mosque, while they stand ungirt. The Bulgarian bows, sits down, looks hither and thither like one possessed, and there is no happiness among them, but instead only sorrow and a dreadful stench. Their religion is not good. Then we went among the Germans, and saw them performing many ceremonies in their temples; but we beheld no glory there.
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« Reply #246 on: November 30, 2010, 08:28:46 AM »

Ah!  The Red Sun-Prince!   I believe he rejected Islam and Judaism and also the Western Rite, for various reasons.  The Western Rite was rejected for the reason you give from Dostoyevsky,  IIRC.

The envoys reported: "When we journeyed among the Bulgars, we beheld how they worship in their temple, called a mosque, while they stand ungirt. The Bulgarian bows, sits down, looks hither and thither like one possessed, and there is no happiness among them, but instead only sorrow and a dreadful stench. Their religion is not good. Then we went among the Germans, and saw them performing many ceremonies in their temples; but we beheld no glory there.

Don't forget alcohol, "the joy of the Rus."
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« Reply #247 on: November 30, 2010, 08:34:47 AM »

When I ask why Western Rite, the most common answer I get, even from quite sophisticated people, is some variation of "I just like it better." It's a preference. I'm not saying we don't have a right to preferences, but it seems to me they are not the best determinants when we're dealing with spiritual truths. Even comments like, "It's so beautiful" seem irrelevant.

And yet that is why St. Vladimir chose Byzantine Christianity.

"Then we went on to Greece, and the Greeks led us to the edifices where they worship their God, and we knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth. For on earth there is no such splendour or such beauty, and we are at a loss how to describe it. We know only that God dwells there among men, and their service is fairer than the ceremonies of other nations. For we cannot forget that beauty." Slav envoys to St. Vladimir

"Beauty will save the world." from The Idiot by Dostoyevsky

There's quite a bit in the statement you quote besides "I like it" and "It's beautiful."
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« Reply #248 on: November 30, 2010, 09:07:27 AM »

How do the 1662 and 1928 differ, besides in modernizing the language? Do they have different rites, or are the rites themselves much different?

You can check it out here: http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/CofE1928/CofE1928.htm, as the menu at the bottom shows what was the same from 1662, what was entirely new and what was edited: you can see the changes were substantial. Of course, that matters only in the context of the former comments of our Metropolitan of blessed memory. No one is using the 1928 Proposed English BCP amongst the Western Orthodox. The liturgies we do have are all substantially *more*, and far less ambiguous.

There's quite a bit in the statement you quote besides "I like it" and "It's beautiful."

We have our own story encouraging the use of the Orthodox Roman rite (in the English use) which pertains to the local councils of Cloveshoe, specifically Cloveshoe II, which directed that amongst those who spoke the English tongue, the Roman rite was to be followed in all things. (It also directed that those who did not know Latin were to be taught prayers in the English tongue, and to join in by 'intention' with the Latin prayers.) This council was presided over by St. Cuthbert of Canterbury, and at it letters were read from the Patriarch of the West, Pope St. Zachary (the last of the Byzantine Papacy.)

So, there is a very solid, Orthodox, canonical reason to use the Western rite - *especially* the Roman rite in an English use (of which Sarum is the most preeminent) within the Anglosphere.

Other things which the Council of Cloveshoe II encouraged were frequent communion for the laity, that the clergy keep themselves in a state of readiness to partake of the Holy Body & Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ, and that clergy and monks should not wear the dress of the laity.

And, of course - a late quote from the mid-13th c.: "Among the churches of the whole world, the Church of Salisbury shines like the sun in full orb in respect of its divine service and ministries, so far that she spreads her beams on every side, and so corrects the shortcomings of other churches." - Giles de Bridport, Bishop of Salisbury (Sarum)
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« Reply #249 on: November 30, 2010, 09:30:58 AM »


We have our own story encouraging the use of the Orthodox Roman rite (in the English use) which pertains to the local councils of Cloveshoe, specifically Cloveshoe II, which directed that amongst those who spoke the English tongue, the Roman rite was to be followed in all things. (It also directed that those who did not know Latin were to be taught prayers in the English tongue, and to join in by 'intention' with the Latin prayers.) This council was presided over by St. Cuthbert of Canterbury, and at it letters were read from the Patriarch of the West, Pope St. Zachary (the last of the Byzantine Papacy.)

So, there is a very solid, Orthodox, canonical reason to use the Western rite - *especially* the Roman rite in an English use (of which Sarum is the most preeminent) within the Anglosphere.



Clovesho (I cannot recall which one of them, was it II?) also formulated a canon that the Romen Rite in use at the time was never to be superceded in Britain.  This canon is ignored by the English Orthodox.

Dr Winch Winch emphasizes:  "The canons of Clovesho II have never been rescinded, either by proper authority of the English Church or by any higher magisterium. We English Orthodox are bound to them exactly as churches of the East are bound by their canonically established traditions."

Here is "The Canonical Mass of the English Orthodox"

http://civitas.dei.pagesperso-orange.fr/winch.pdf
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« Reply #250 on: November 30, 2010, 09:41:25 AM »

The canon is: "That all the most sacred Festivals of Our Lord made Man, in all things pertaining to the same, viz.: in the Office of Baptism, the celebration of Masses, in the method of chanting, shall be celebrated in one and the same way, namely, according to the sample which we have received in writing from the Roman Church. And also, throughout the course of the whole year, the festivals of the Saints are to be kept on one and the same day, with their proper psalmody and chant, according to the Martyrology of the same Roman Church."

The Canon that the received did remain the same, and was that found in the later books of the English uses - it is simply the Roman canon.

So - the Roman Canon, and other matters, required by the Council of Cloveshoe II are indeed followed by the English Orthodox. We also follow the further directives of the Russian Synod in the 1860s which were carried out with England specifically in mind.

Dr. Raymond Winch's work has some things that fall short. There is some worth in the book, some that is questionable. It reminds me much of the Non-Jurors approach. We have a pdf that was made of the original work without the TAC foreward that was done by Eadmund Dunstall.
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« Reply #251 on: November 30, 2010, 10:02:52 AM »

/\  Clovesho II formulated 30 canons (or more?).  I especially remember the one about the demand to maintain the liturgy in Britain forever and a day as it was then because Dr Winch made quite a point of it in his correspondence over several years with Fr Jack Witbrock.

Do you know where to find the Canons, on the Net on in a written work?  I suppose that they do not apply to you in the States but they would to people engaged in WR worship in the UK.
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« Reply #252 on: November 30, 2010, 10:15:56 AM »

They would apply to the States, as we are a colony of England, and specifically speak the English tongue - most of us know no other. (We are the fruit of St. Olaf's mission.)  And - I am engaged in worship in the UK as well.

The acts of Cloveshoe II were recorded in a Cottonian manuscript that is now lost, though Spelman had recorded them from that manuscript. Haddan & Stubbs have it in their Councils & Ecclesiastical Documents, though they edited with a bias.
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« Reply #253 on: November 30, 2010, 10:38:49 AM »

When I ask why Western Rite, the most common answer I get, even from quite sophisticated people, is some variation of "I just like it better." It's a preference. I'm not saying we don't have a right to preferences, but it seems to me they are not the best determinants when we're dealing with spiritual truths. Even comments like, "It's so beautiful" seem irrelevant.

And yet that is why St. Vladimir chose Byzantine Christianity.

"Then we went on to Greece, and the Greeks led us to the edifices where they worship their God, and we knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth. For on earth there is no such splendour or such beauty, and we are at a loss how to describe it. We know only that God dwells there among men, and their service is fairer than the ceremonies of other nations. For we cannot forget that beauty." Slav envoys to St. Vladimir

"Beauty will save the world." from The Idiot by Dostoyevsky

There's quite a bit in the statement you quote besides "I like it" and "It's beautiful."

And there is quite a bit more to what myself and others have shared besides "I like it" and "It's beautiful."
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« Reply #254 on: November 30, 2010, 10:57:28 AM »

Father Aidan,

Thank you very much for such an engaging and interesting account of your own WR activity. Have you written any of this in more detail anywhere?

I used to have an audio tape of some of your material, but unfortunately it is lost, and I still have the beautiful and comprehensive blue book of prayers.

Do you have any current mp3s of your worship? Or even video? What is the best way to keep up to date with you WR activities?

In Christ

Father Peter
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« Reply #255 on: November 30, 2010, 11:50:20 AM »

They would apply to the States, as we are a colony of England, and specifically speak the English tongue - most of us know no other. (We are the fruit of St. Olaf's mission.)  And - I am engaged in worship in the UK as well.

The acts of Cloveshoe II were recorded in a Cottonian manuscript that is now lost, though Spelman had recorded them from that manuscript. Haddan & Stubbs have it in their Councils & Ecclesiastical Documents, though they edited with a bias.

The state where I was born and raised was never a colony of England. It was a colony of Spain, and then of Mexico. It was independent for a very brief period in 1848. But gold had been discovered the same year, so ... Now, it is a colony of the United States.

Has anyone else noticed this, the way Brits have a habit of referring to Americans as colonials (sometimes even as "stroppy colonials")? I mean, a small part of the current territory of the US was a British colony until it won its independence 234 years ago, but they refer to the entire country as a colony, like Hong Kong. Because they must know how much people love being talked down to and patronized by the inhabitants of a drizzly little island where they drink warm beer and weak tea and eat food that is classified according to color ("It is my favorite, sir; it is brown").
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« Reply #256 on: November 30, 2010, 11:59:32 AM »

Who refers to the Americans as colonials? Ari is an American not English.

I don't know anyone who calls Americans colonials.
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« Reply #257 on: November 30, 2010, 12:01:22 PM »

Who refers to the Americans as colonials? Ari is an American not English.

I don't know anyone who calls Americans colonials.

Sorry, it was a non-specific rant. I'll try to get a hold of myself.
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« Reply #258 on: November 30, 2010, 12:05:38 PM »

Apology accepted. Now Americans are criminals and rebels against God ordained authorities. I'll allow that.
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« Reply #259 on: November 30, 2010, 01:39:36 PM »

Apology accepted. Now Americans are criminals and rebels against God ordained authorities. I'll allow that.

Well, not ALL of us, Father! However, there are too many rivals for the Imperial Throne. I prefer the Lascarids myself. Less disappointing than the Paleologoi.  Grin
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« Reply #260 on: November 30, 2010, 02:57:38 PM »

Apology accepted. Now Americans are criminals and rebels against God ordained authorities. I'll allow that.

If we are, we have quite a lot of company.
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« Reply #261 on: November 30, 2010, 03:37:32 PM »

If we are, we have quite a lot of company.

It's not a sin if everybody does it.

On a related note, it's nice how an authority is ordained by God if they kill the current king and take his throne, but if you kill the king and burn the throne then you are somehow Godless.
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« Reply #262 on: November 30, 2010, 03:50:34 PM »

They would apply to the States, as we are a colony of England, and specifically speak the English tongue - most of us know no other. (We are the fruit of St. Olaf's mission.)  And - I am engaged in worship in the UK as well.

The acts of Cloveshoe II were recorded in a Cottonian manuscript that is now lost, though Spelman had recorded them from that manuscript. Haddan & Stubbs have it in their Councils & Ecclesiastical Documents, though they edited with a bias.

The state where I was born and raised was never a colony of England. It was a colony of Spain, and then of Mexico. It was independent for a very brief period in 1848. But gold had been discovered the same year, so ... Now, it is a colony of the United States.

Has anyone else noticed this, the way Brits have a habit of referring to Americans as colonials (sometimes even as "stroppy colonials")? I mean, a small part of the current territory of the US was a British colony until it won its independence 234 years ago, but they refer to the entire country as a colony, like Hong Kong. Because they must know how much people love being talked down to and patronized by the inhabitants of a drizzly little island where they drink warm beer and weak tea and eat food that is classified according to color ("It is my favorite, sir; it is brown").

Depending on where you are from, it was part of the Russian Empire.

Doesn't matter. Calfornia, for instance, has adopted the English Common Law, and doesn't go by either the Spanish or Mexican codes, except in case law.
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« Reply #263 on: November 30, 2010, 04:01:33 PM »

Those who killed King Harold were not doing God's will. Those who killed King Charles were not doing God's will. I don't think it matters if Presidents are removed. But Kings are icons in some sense, and certainly the incarnation of the national family. To kill the King is patricide.

Father Peter
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« Reply #264 on: November 30, 2010, 04:03:59 PM »

^ oh, royalism.  Grin Well, I am with  ya there. I still pray for the King of Spain because I live in New Mexico.
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« Reply #265 on: November 30, 2010, 04:36:36 PM »

They would apply to the States, as we are a colony of England, and specifically speak the English tongue - most of us know no other. (We are the fruit of St. Olaf's mission.)  And - I am engaged in worship in the UK as well.

The acts of Cloveshoe II were recorded in a Cottonian manuscript that is now lost, though Spelman had recorded them from that manuscript. Haddan & Stubbs have it in their Councils & Ecclesiastical Documents, though they edited with a bias.

The state where I was born and raised was never a colony of England. It was a colony of Spain, and then of Mexico. It was independent for a very brief period in 1848. But gold had been discovered the same year, so ... Now, it is a colony of the United States.

Has anyone else noticed this, the way Brits have a habit of referring to Americans as colonials (sometimes even as "stroppy colonials")? I mean, a small part of the current territory of the US was a British colony until it won its independence 234 years ago, but they refer to the entire country as a colony, like Hong Kong. Because they must know how much people love being talked down to and patronized by the inhabitants of a drizzly little island where they drink warm beer and weak tea and eat food that is classified according to color ("It is my favorite, sir; it is brown").

Them's fightin' words!

British beer happens to be some of the best in the world, and they have tea brewing down to an art form. As for their food, it can be very good if freshly prepared. "Good plain food," as Tolkien liked to say.

I just had a steak and ale pie with a pint of Fullers today for lunch Smiley

-

As a native of New York and a resident of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, I do pray for Her Magisty the Queen.
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« Reply #266 on: November 30, 2010, 04:40:29 PM »

Ahhhh. Steak and Ale pie and a pint of Fullers.

Yes, you are right. There is nothing better than English beer. And there are more and more micro-breweries opening all the time. In my own area we have the oldest brewer in the country - Shepherd Neame. And there are so many other great brewers and great beers.
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« Reply #267 on: November 30, 2010, 04:41:38 PM »

From my Roman Missal:

    (P) O Lord, save Elizabeth our Queen.

     (R) And hear us in the day when we call upon Thee.

    (P) Let us pray.— Almighty God, we pray for thy servant Elizabeth our Queen, now by thy mercy reigning over us. Adorn her yet more with every virtue, remove all evil from her path, that with her consort, and all the royal family, she may come at last in grace to thee, who are the way, the truth, and the life. Through Christ our Lord.

    (R) Amen
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« Reply #268 on: November 30, 2010, 04:45:09 PM »

Ahhhh. Steak and Ale pie and a pint of Fullers.

Yes, you are right. There is nothing better than English beer. And there are more and more micro-breweries opening all the time. In my own area we have the oldest brewer in the country - Shepherd Neame. And there are so many other great brewers and great beers.

I absolutely love Shepherd Neame, so much so that my old band was named after one of their ales.  Sadly, it's now near impossible to find their beers now in my area.


BUT we are getting off topic here.  Let's try to focus on the OP. 
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« Reply #269 on: November 30, 2010, 05:02:29 PM »

Sorry, but it was Hermogenes fault for starting to diss the British!  Wink

May I re-iterate that I would like to hear or read much more from Father Aidan about his sources and methodology.

Father Peter
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