Author Topic: How are we any different?  (Read 2812 times)

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Raylight

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How are we any different?
« on: January 25, 2016, 03:24:28 PM »
In countries where Islam is the dominant religion, many people believe in Islam's teachings heart and soul and long for the day when Islam rules the world. They believe that Islam has the solution for all the world's problems. They want religion to dominate the state, society, education, media, and everything you can think of.

There are Christians who are the same, but change the term "Islam" to "Christianity". There are few members here who long for the day when society adheres to Christian authority. We have Christians elsewhere who continue to attack today's society, secularism, morals, and if they can, they would likely want the world to go back to the day when things were different. Who believe that Christianity is the solution for the world's problems.

How are those any different? Both groups want their religion to control people's lives, both of them want society to adhere to their religion. How are they any different when they want Christianity to be the source of authority in the country? How are they any different when they want anything that goes against Christian teachings to diminish? 
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 03:25:49 PM by Raylight »

Offline wgw

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2016, 03:26:11 PM »
Well, for starters, there is a relative lack of Christians crashing airplanes into buildings, blowing themselves up, and opening machine guns on public places.
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Raylight

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2016, 03:29:07 PM »
Well, for starters, there is a relative lack of Christians crashing airplanes into buildings, blowing themselves up, and opening machine guns on public places.

Two wrongs don't make something right. 

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2016, 03:30:17 PM »
Well, for starters, there is a relative lack of Christians crashing airplanes into buildings, blowing themselves up, and opening machine guns on public places.

Two wrongs don't make something right.
Huh???
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Offline CarolS

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2016, 03:31:52 PM »
Where are we instructed by our Christian Scriptures to kill or enslave people who don't adhere to our belief? You really think Islam and Christianity are equivalent?
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Raylight

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2016, 03:33:03 PM »
Well, for starters, there is a relative lack of Christians crashing airplanes into buildings, blowing themselves up, and opening machine guns on public places.

Two wrongs don't make something right.
Huh???

Sorry, thing got messed up. It is not the fallacy of two wrongs make something right.

Raylight

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2016, 03:38:19 PM »
Where are we instructed by our Christian Scriptures to kill or enslave people who don't adhere to our belief? You really think Islam and Christianity are equivalent?

They are differently not equivalent. But some interpretations of Scripture are almost exactly the way Islam is.

Another thing I want to add. Many of the terrorists who killed innocents probably fell to that evil by making them feel they are the victims. By making them believe that they are at war with the world,  that the world is against them. This same notion is becoming popular among some Christians today. We see it everywhere where some Christians in America, and elsewhere claim that the State is turning against them, that they are going to be persecuted, and whenever a decision is made that they are not happy about, they run to the media claiming that it is a matter of time until they lose their civil right. Such notion does produce terrorism.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2016, 03:42:41 PM »
Just about everyone want everyone else to adhere to their standards and beliefs. Secularists want a secular government, Islamists want an Islamic government, Hindus want a Hindu government and Christians want a Christian government. In that respect we are no different than any of the other groups. How we are (or should be) different is that we choose not to impose those beliefs by force on others, but rather by changing ourselves. If you had Christians beheading or persecuting non-Christians, they would be no better than Islamist governments. Western secularism is really an offshoot of principles that began in a Christian Europe and are actually rather similar to the Christian philosophy of governance. This can be contrasted with the type of secularism that is in North Korea, was in the USSR or China which were not advocates of pluralism, but rather actively sought to repress religious identities as being contrary to the state which was then view as some sort of deified entity and its leaders as demigods.
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Offline William T

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2016, 03:48:55 PM »
Classic Christianity does not have any hardline teachings on the state and it's practice. 

1) Were I to get a little scholastic, you might say that law and politics is more "natural" than "sacred", though it is irrevocable and part of this world and law and civil order is part of God's will.  Clearly some Christians have formed political doctrines, and there was Christendom.in much of the world at one point, but overall these concepts and doctrines are not necessary or essentials to Faith or practice.  While no doubt some totalizing political philosophies (be they progressive or reactionary) have been formulated (and practiced) within Christianity, they not the norm and most forms of them have been.condemned outright.  This is usually a gross misplaced and distorted evangelism. Christianity is a Kingdom "not of this world", no Christian doctrine of politics can contradict that, and very few have tried to do so directly.

2) at this point though it's a good  to see how you're formulating your picture by getting a bit Socratic.  How is secularism or rather, any belief in secularism different from Islam or Christianity.  There are many answers you can give that aren't incorrect.  This helps to see where you are coming from.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 03:53:00 PM by William T »

Offline christiane777

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2016, 03:57:42 PM »
Just about everyone want everyone else to adhere to their standards and beliefs. Secularists want a secular government, Islamists want an Islamic government, Hindus want a Hindu government and Christians want a Christian government. In that respect we are no different than any of the other groups. How we are (or should be) different is that we choose not to impose those beliefs by force on others, but rather by changing ourselves. If you had Christians beheading or persecuting non-Christians, they would be no better than Islamist governments. Western secularism is really an offshoot of principles that began in a Christian Europe and are actually rather similar to the Christian philosophy of governance. This can be contrasted with the type of secularism that is in North Korea, was in the USSR or China which were not advocates of pluralism, but rather actively sought to repress religious identities as being contrary to the state which was then view as some sort of deified entity and its leaders as demigods.

Well said - the only problem being that Western secularism is increasingly adrift from its 'common good' Judeo-Christian roots.  Individualism has replaced common humanity and its welfare as the main goal, the highest good; this is not the same as responsible democratic freedom in an ordered, balanced society, which adheres to a set of common values.  Christianity, which protects the social good and order, has become more or less an 'oppressive' enemy.  The more you widen this divide, the more you invite destabilization, fascism, totalitarianism.  History taught us this time and again in the 20th century; it was the atheist and socialist regimes that killed people in the millions and millions.....the world has never seen anything like it. 
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Raylight

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2016, 04:03:18 PM »
The purpose of my thread is to really know what is the difference. I don't have certain belief that I'm trying to prove here. I may argue or ask more in case some responses weren't clear enough, but my aim is to get answers to the question.

I have to mention that I don't believe that secularism somehow saved us from the evil of Christianity. I'm not that person that used to believe that the old days were very dark and Christianity ruined the lives of the people. When I used to believe that The Catholic Church was the enemy of science and art. That Christianity did nothing except producing the so called "dark ages". I'm weel aware that what we are enjoying today in the West was built of Christian idea, especially the Roman Catholic. That our system from head to toe is the product of Christianity.

My question in the OP however, is about the Christians who are militant in their thinking.

Offline wgw

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2016, 04:04:43 PM »
Where are we instructed by our Christian Scriptures to kill or enslave people who don't adhere to our belief? You really think Islam and Christianity are equivalent?

They are differently not equivalent. But some interpretations of Scripture are almost exactly the way Islam is.

Another thing I want to add. Many of the terrorists who killed innocents probably fell to that evil by making them feel they are the victims. By making them believe that they are at war with the world,  that the world is against them. This same notion is becoming popular among some Christians today. We see it everywhere where some Christians in America, and elsewhere claim that the State is turning against them, that they are going to be persecuted, and whenever a decision is made that they are not happy about, they run to the media claiming that it is a matter of time until they lose their civil right. Such notion does produce terrorism.

The difference is that Orthodox Christianity expressly precludes acts of terrorism whereas Islam glorifies it.
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Offline William T

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2016, 04:14:47 PM »
The purpose of my thread is to really know what is the difference. I don't have certain belief that I'm trying to prove here. I may argue or ask more in case some responses weren't clear enough, but my aim is to get answers to the question.

I have to mention that I don't believe that secularism somehow saved us from the evil of Christianity. I'm not that person that used to believe that the old days were very dark and Christianity ruined the lives of the people. When I used to believe that The Catholic Church was the enemy of science and art. That Christianity did nothing except producing the so called "dark ages". I'm weel aware that what we are enjoying today in the West was built of Christian idea, especially the Roman Catholic. That our system from head to toe is the product of Christianity.

My question in the OP however, is about the Christians who are militant in their thinking.

What I was saying in my first post was trying to address that.  I don't think you have an angle, and I didn't want to spell anything out for you, because I wanted to see what you were thinking, and I wanted you to spell your ideas out a bit more.

What if we said this: in.the modern West there is a mindset called "fundamentalism".  It's not peculiar to religion (it.could be ideological or cultural), but that tends to be the.militant drive in many Christians as well as many other forces.  It's overall a very bad thing if the word has boundaries and actual content (and I think the word does, though it can be abused and misused).

And as I said before, there is no "sacred" (this is probably an inappropriate word for an orthodox, but let's just try to use it) state theology in classic Christendom...It's not built to engage in politics in.that manner.  When Christianity started splintering AND competing with growingg humanism, you start to see more totalizing ideologies popping up within Christendom and humanism...overall though the theories are not any part of classic Christianity or general human jurisprudence...Even if these ideas can gain some currency in the modern world.

I can't do direct comparisons to Islam, and I'm.not fully capable of speaking for Islam... but I'd say Islam has more of a tendency and a doctrine to promote a "sacred political order" than Christendom can. 
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 04:21:54 PM by William T »

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2016, 04:15:04 PM »
The purpose of my thread is to really know what is the difference. I don't have certain belief that I'm trying to prove here. I may argue or ask more in case some responses weren't clear enough, but my aim is to get answers to the question.

I have to mention that I don't believe that secularism somehow saved us from the evil of Christianity. I'm not that person that used to believe that the old days were very dark and Christianity ruined the lives of the people. When I used to believe that The Catholic Church was the enemy of science and art. That Christianity did nothing except producing the so called "dark ages". I'm weel aware that what we are enjoying today in the West was built of Christian idea, especially the Roman Catholic. That our system from head to toe is the product of Christianity.

My question in the OP however, is about the Christians who are militant in their thinking.
Without getting into politics, I do believe that there are not insignificant portions of the US population who ARE militant about how they believe the Church and State should correlate to each other, and I find them almost as terrifying as I do Islamists. I have no desire to live in a Christian oppressive government any more than in any other kind of oppressive government. The Puritans tried that and it did not work out well.
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Offline christiane777

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2016, 04:25:08 PM »
The purpose of my thread is to really know what is the difference. I don't have certain belief that I'm trying to prove here. I may argue or ask more in case some responses weren't clear enough, but my aim is to get answers to the question.

I have to mention that I don't believe that secularism somehow saved us from the evil of Christianity. I'm not that person that used to believe that the old days were very dark and Christianity ruined the lives of the people. When I used to believe that The Catholic Church was the enemy of science and art. That Christianity did nothing except producing the so called "dark ages". I'm weel aware that what we are enjoying today in the West was built of Christian idea, especially the Roman Catholic. That our system from head to toe is the product of Christianity.

My question in the OP however, is about the Christians who are militant in their thinking.

What I was saying in my first post was trying to address that.  I don't think you have an angle, and I didn't want to spell anything out for you, because I wanted to see what you were thinking, and I wanted you to spell your ideas out a bit more.

What if we said this: in.the modern West there is a mindset called "fundamentalism".  It's not peculiar to religion (it.could be ideological or cultural), but that tends to be the.militant drive in many Christians as well as many other forces.  It's overall a very bad thing if the word has boundaries and actual content (and I think the word does, though it can be abused and misused).

And as I said before, there is no "sacred" (this is probably an inappropriate word for an orthodox, but let's just try to use it) state theology in classic Christendom...It's not built to engage in politics in.that manner.

I can't do direct comparisons to Islam, and I'm.not fully capable of speaking for Islam... but I'd say Islam has more of a tendency and a doctrine to promote a "sacred political order" than Christendom can.

Agreed.  Fundamentalists have terrified me all of my life.  I personally see them becoming weaker, not stronger.  The whole evangelical movement seems to be - from my distant uninformed view - breaking into more and more nondenominational churches.  But I agree there are crazies out there, indeed - and yes I am sidestepping politics here, more like an elephant - or really big building  - in the room   ;).  To compare US Christian fundamentalism or extremism to ISIS and the threat of Islam radical terrorism though is quite a stretch. 

Are we talking cultural, social issues?  My guess is yes.  I don't see Christian fundamentalism as a major threat to political stability or democracy.
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Offline William T

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2016, 04:33:34 PM »
The purpose of my thread is to really know what is the difference. I don't have certain belief that I'm trying to prove here. I may argue or ask more in case some responses weren't clear enough, but my aim is to get answers to the question.

I have to mention that I don't believe that secularism somehow saved us from the evil of Christianity. I'm not that person that used to believe that the old days were very dark and Christianity ruined the lives of the people. When I used to believe that The Catholic Church was the enemy of science and art. That Christianity did nothing except producing the so called "dark ages". I'm weel aware that what we are enjoying today in the West was built of Christian idea, especially the Roman Catholic. That our system from head to toe is the product of Christianity.

My question in the OP however, is about the Christians who are militant in their thinking.

What I was saying in my first post was trying to address that.  I don't think you have an angle, and I didn't want to spell anything out for you, because I wanted to see what you were thinking, and I wanted you to spell your ideas out a bit more.

What if we said this: in.the modern West there is a mindset called "fundamentalism".  It's not peculiar to religion (it.could be ideological or cultural), but that tends to be the.militant drive in many Christians as well as many other forces.  It's overall a very bad thing if the word has boundaries and actual content (and I think the word does, though it can be abused and misused).

And as I said before, there is no "sacred" (this is probably an inappropriate word for an orthodox, but let's just try to use it) state theology in classic Christendom...It's not built to engage in politics in.that manner.

I can't do direct comparisons to Islam, and I'm.not fully capable of speaking for Islam... but I'd say Islam has more of a tendency and a doctrine to promote a "sacred political order" than Christendom can.

Agreed.  Fundamentalists have terrified me all of my life.  I personally see them becoming weaker, not stronger.  The whole evangelical movement seems to be - from my distant uninformed view - breaking into more and more nondenominational churches.  But I agree there are crazies out there, indeed - and yes I am sidestepping politics here, more like an elephant - or really big building  - in the room   ;).  To compare US Christian fundamentalism or extremism to ISIS and the threat of Islam radical terrorism though is quite a stretch. 

Are we talking cultural, social issues?  My guess is yes.  I don't see Christian fundamentalism as a major threat to political stability or democracy.

Overall, the OP asked a political question the way I read it.  "What is x's relationship to the state?" Seems to be his topic.

I don't.think there is anything wrong with getting a little "meta"'or descriptive on the question.  Particulars of politics and polemics can , and should be avoided if we just look at the formal content of his question.  I think this is what the OP wants anyway.  In my opinion it keeps this away from.being outright political and can help keep the topic more focused and productive for the OPs question.

And here it's probably best to talk about the limits of what Classic Christian dogma can say about such a thing rather than what Islam can say, as few here can probably talk about Islam "as such".  If Islam is used it should only be used in an abstract and conditional sense
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 04:41:36 PM by William T »

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2016, 06:19:36 PM »
Well, for starters, there is a relative lack of Christians crashing airplanes into buildings, blowing themselves up, and opening machine guns on public places.









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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2016, 06:27:10 PM »
Well, for starters, there is a relative lack of Christians crashing airplanes into buildings, blowing themselves up, and opening machine guns on public places.

Two wrongs don't make something right.
Huh???
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2016, 06:30:34 PM »
Quote
My question in the OP however, is about the Christians who are militant in their thinking.
I think you should get down on your knees and thank God there is.

Unless you don't mind living under dhimmitude or a communist tyranny.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2016, 06:47:41 PM »
Where are we instructed by our Christian Scriptures to kill or enslave people who don't adhere to our belief? You really think Islam and Christianity are equivalent?

I have heard some self-professed Christians (not Orthodox ones, though), who argue that enslavement of Africans and extermination of Native Americans was justified because they weren't Christians (at the time). Mostly Rushdoonyites and ultra-traditionalist Catholics.

In the former case, this is the result of a Pharisaical/Judaizing adherence to the Mosaic law, and in the latter case, this is because they think that what people like Torquemada and the conquistadors did couldn't possibly have been wrong since they were in good standing with Rome.

Both of these groups, however, are vanishingly small compared to their counterparts within Islam. Rushdoonyites believe "theonomy" will only happen once a vast majority of people have already come around to their way of thinking, and don't believe in enforcing that order prematurely via violence. The reason you don't see rad-trad Catholics launching "one-man crusades" against those they consider heretics or heathens is because they believe only a Pope can authorize a crusade. Thankfully, while there are several fringe people who claim to be pope, none of them have come anywhere close to advocating terrorism.

(Anders Breivik, for his part, was a European nationalist who used Christianity as a rallying point, but was himself an agnostic, so I don't categorize him with either of the above groups).

There are various aberrant offshoots of Christianity that are arguably as violent as radical Islam is; Eastern Lightning and the Lord's Resistance Army are arguably the most notable examples. But the "Lightning" is almost as far removed from mainstream Christianity as Islam itself is. Islam, after all, also originated as a Christian heresy.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 06:58:07 PM by Minnesotan »
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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2016, 06:57:18 PM »
Quote
(Anders Breivik, for his part, was a European nationalist who used Christianity as a rallying point, but was himself an agnostic,
Also an avowed Odinist and pro-Israel.

There was nothing 'christian" about him.

« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 06:57:41 PM by Charles Martel »
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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2016, 06:57:50 PM »
The purpose of my thread is to really know what is the difference. I don't have certain belief that I'm trying to prove here. I may argue or ask more in case some responses weren't clear enough, but my aim is to get answers to the question.

I have to mention that I don't believe that secularism somehow saved us from the evil of Christianity. I'm not that person that used to believe that the old days were very dark and Christianity ruined the lives of the people. When I used to believe that The Catholic Church was the enemy of science and art. That Christianity did nothing except producing the so called "dark ages". I'm weel aware that what we are enjoying today in the West was built of Christian idea, especially the Roman Catholic. That our system from head to toe is the product of Christianity.

My question in the OP however, is about the Christians who are militant in their thinking.
Without getting into politics, I do believe that there are not insignificant portions of the US population who ARE militant about how they believe the Church and State should correlate to each other, and I find them almost as terrifying as I do Islamists. I have no desire to live in a Christian oppressive government any more than in any other kind of oppressive government. The Puritans tried that and it did not work out well.

And even then, there is no such thing as "Christianity". There's 33,000 denominations of Protestantism, plus Catholicism, Holy Orthodoxy and if you count the non-Trinitarian offshoots, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness sects, etc. What you're talking about is scary because no one knows who's right. Do the Baptists get a theocracy? Do the Reformed Baptists? Do the Episcopalians?

Offline Charles Martel

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2016, 07:00:55 PM »
Quote
How are those any different? Both groups want their religion to control people's lives, both of them want society to adhere to their religion
Newsflash Raylight: neither Islam or Christianity has any control over this society or anyone's lives within it.

Quite the contrary actually.
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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2016, 07:01:33 PM »
The purpose of my thread is to really know what is the difference. I don't have certain belief that I'm trying to prove here. I may argue or ask more in case some responses weren't clear enough, but my aim is to get answers to the question.

I have to mention that I don't believe that secularism somehow saved us from the evil of Christianity. I'm not that person that used to believe that the old days were very dark and Christianity ruined the lives of the people. When I used to believe that The Catholic Church was the enemy of science and art. That Christianity did nothing except producing the so called "dark ages". I'm weel aware that what we are enjoying today in the West was built of Christian idea, especially the Roman Catholic. That our system from head to toe is the product of Christianity.

My question in the OP however, is about the Christians who are militant in their thinking.
Without getting into politics, I do believe that there are not insignificant portions of the US population who ARE militant about how they believe the Church and State should correlate to each other, and I find them almost as terrifying as I do Islamists. I have no desire to live in a Christian oppressive government any more than in any other kind of oppressive government. The Puritans tried that and it did not work out well.

And even then, there is no such thing as "Christianity". There's 33,000 denominations of Protestantism, plus Catholicism, Holy Orthodoxy and if you count the non-Trinitarian offshoots, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness sects, etc. What you're talking about is scary because no one knows who's right. Do the Baptists get a theocracy? Do the Reformed Baptists? Do the Episcopalians?

The Baptists originally were distinguished by their strong opposition to theocracy of any sort; they, like many of the Anabaptists, believed in absolute church/state separation and secular government. But many of them have since forgotten their roots in that regard, which is quite ironic, whether we're talking about Southern Baptists becoming increasingly politicized over the years or the Tripura Baptists in India who want to establish a theocratic state and are supplying arms to militants who share that goal.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2016, 10:46:36 AM »
The purpose of my thread is to really know what is the difference. I don't have certain belief that I'm trying to prove here. I may argue or ask more in case some responses weren't clear enough, but my aim is to get answers to the question.

I have to mention that I don't believe that secularism somehow saved us from the evil of Christianity. I'm not that person that used to believe that the old days were very dark and Christianity ruined the lives of the people. When I used to believe that The Catholic Church was the enemy of science and art. That Christianity did nothing except producing the so called "dark ages". I'm weel aware that what we are enjoying today in the West was built of Christian idea, especially the Roman Catholic. That our system from head to toe is the product of Christianity.

My question in the OP however, is about the Christians who are militant in their thinking.
Without getting into politics, I do believe that there are not insignificant portions of the US population who ARE militant about how they believe the Church and State should correlate to each other, and I find them almost as terrifying as I do Islamists. I have no desire to live in a Christian oppressive government any more than in any other kind of oppressive government. The Puritans tried that and it did not work out well.

And even then, there is no such thing as "Christianity". There's 33,000 denominations of Protestantism, plus Catholicism, Holy Orthodoxy and if you count the non-Trinitarian offshoots, Mormonism, Jehovah's Witnesses, Oneness sects, etc. What you're talking about is scary because no one knows who's right. Do the Baptists get a theocracy? Do the Reformed Baptists? Do the Episcopalians?
I think that is an overemphasis on our differences. Despite our differences the vast majority of Christianity would hold to the basic tenants of Christ's teaching. Of course in this age where everyone has a voice, you can find people who use Christianity as an excuse for racism, hatred and misogyny, but that can be said of any philosophical construct. Christendom as a whole would hold to the teachings of "Love your neighbor as yourself" the importance of repentance of sins and the seeking the Kingdom of God. Whether or not those various groups are good at implementing those teachings are a different story, but the basic teachings are the same.
God bless!

Offline wgw

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2016, 11:14:30 AM »
Well, for starters, there is a relative lack of Christians crashing airplanes into buildings, blowing themselves up, and opening machine guns on public places.











Keyword: relative.
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2016, 11:29:08 AM »
Well, for starters, there is a relative lack of Christians crashing airplanes into buildings, blowing themselves up, and opening machine guns on public places.











What a comparison. The contribution of similar-minded Christians from other ethnicies to those groups is non-existant to minimal. Besides some careerist fighters in Donbass and the esoteric milenarism of the LRA, those are completely ethnic issues, religion playing a cultural side on them.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 11:54:48 AM by RaphaCam »
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Offline Svartzorn

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2016, 11:40:22 AM »
There's simply no relation.
Islam is a project of society that tries to adequate it to their ideal. Islam reshapes society completely.
Christianity is simply not like that. It has coexisted with modern civil law societies in relative peace, even when people try to distort state institutions to get rid of it. Islamists would never accept that.
For what? Arresting me for what? I'm not allowed to stand up for myself? I thought this was America! Huh? Isn't this America? I'm sorry, I thought this was America.

Offline Volnutt

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2016, 03:25:15 PM »
There's simply no relation.
Islam is a project of society that tries to adequate it to their ideal. Islam reshapes society completely.
Christianity is simply not like that. It has coexisted with modern civil law societies in relative peace, even when people try to distort state institutions to get rid of it. Islamists would never accept that.

Cough. Cough.

Some little jokes are ok. You chuckle and move forward.
Now there's some stuff that's no "little joke". People should be incarcerated for determinate "jokes".

And who gets to determine what is considered a mere joke and what is blasphemy punishable by civil authorities?  No speech should be punishable by jail unless used to knowingly incite violence or cause definitive psychological harm.  Punishing people for having different religious views (which is really what we are talking about) is tantamount to using the law to force people to agree with you.  And that has NEVER worked well.

The political class influenced by a decent ideology, the latter inspired by true christianity preferably.
Which is... what always happens, except for the christian part. You just change ideology.
There will always be people incarcerated by their opinions, stop living in this fairy tale. Doesn't matter the governing class, doesn't matter the ideology, that will always happen because that's how politics work. The dominant ideology will generates changes in the sphere of values that will crystalize sooner or latter within the legal system. Then the witch hunt begins.
I'm just telling you it's MY way of thinking that should be enforced, NOT YOURS. You can mess around all you want, politics just revolves about that. If they think differently in their private lives, that's none of the State's bussiness.
It worked just fine and still does. People are still being silenced... actually way better than they were before. And people still believe this "freedom of speech" nonsense.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline truthseeker32

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2016, 04:19:47 PM »
These are difficult questions, Raylight. They stem from political and moral philosophy. What is the good? How ought we to pursue it? What form of religion is best for obtaining the good? What form of government best aids its citizens in obtaining the good?

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2016, 05:26:40 PM »
There are several great replies here. Some of them are of a great help, some of them are very interesting and enlightening, and some are total nonsense.

As I said earlier. My purpose is to get answers and/or explanations that may help me, and I did indeed. :)

Offline Cognomen

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2016, 05:39:33 PM »
We live to serve you.
If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2016, 05:54:20 PM »
We live to serve you.

I get what you are trying to say.  I'm not going to argue with the members who replied unless there is a need to. I asked a question, many members here replied and some of them replied with questions--which also helped me to see the flaw in my own idea-- and now I'm satisfied to say that I know better than I did before.

I used to like arguing just for the sake of it, but I'm trying as best as I can to eliminate that and just focus on one point.

Sorry if my thread didn't meet your expectations. But if you want a thread where members argue for the sake of arguing, you may need to check another thread. :)

Offline christiane777

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2016, 06:27:28 PM »
We live to serve you.

I get what you are trying to say.  I'm not going to argue with the members who replied unless there is a need to. I asked a question, many members here replied and some of them replied with questions--which also helped me to see the flaw in my own idea-- and now I'm satisfied to say that I know better than I did before.

I used to like arguing just for the sake of it, but I'm trying as best as I can to eliminate that and just focus on one point.

Sorry if my thread didn't meet your expectations. But if you want a thread where members argue for the sake of arguing, you may need to check another thread. :)

I'll say this for you - you start threads with interesting questions/topics - in my view.  I don't always agree with you, but your threads 'have conversation potential.'
I was in the spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Offline homedad76

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2016, 06:46:40 PM »
It is true that Christianity does have those who support using the state to enforce Christian beliefs.  They are called Dominionists and Ted Cruz is one of them.  But in general most Christians do not support the idea of using the force of the state to ensure compliance with specific religious standards.  Of course there are gray areas like gay marriage, religious expression in the public square and access to contraception where there are some differences in how much people believe the state should be involved but in general I believe most Christians believe the "conversion of the world" must happen one person at a time by choice and not by force.   I also believe most Muslims believe this in practice but the fact is their religious texts actually contain specific legal structures to be used while ours do not.
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Offline Svartzorn

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2016, 07:09:02 PM »
@Vollnutt: don't adress me. Ever.
I'd put you on ignore if I could. Just assume you are on ignore since I'm not answering any of your stuff.
For what? Arresting me for what? I'm not allowed to stand up for myself? I thought this was America! Huh? Isn't this America? I'm sorry, I thought this was America.

Offline Arachne

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2016, 07:16:30 PM »
@Vollnutt: don't adress me. Ever.
I'd put you on ignore if I could. Just assume you are on ignore since I'm not answering any of your stuff.

You can put others on ignore. (Profile - Modify - Buddy/Ignore List) Whether they continue to address your posts is beyond your control.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2016, 07:17:39 PM »
@Vollnutt: don't adress me. Ever.
I'd put you on ignore if I could. Just assume you are on ignore since I'm not answering any of your stuff.

I'll address you all I like to call out your creepo hypocrisy. Go cry about it.
Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

Offline Svartzorn

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2016, 07:58:49 PM »
@Vollnutt: don't adress me. Ever.
I'd put you on ignore if I could. Just assume you are on ignore since I'm not answering any of your stuff.

You can put others on ignore. (Profile - Modify - Buddy/Ignore List) Whether they continue to address your posts is beyond your control.

Thank God for that.
I didn't come here to join squabbles with politically disaligned people.
In fact, I didn't come here to join any political discussions at all, hence the reason I didn't and won't ask to join the political forum.
I'd like to distance myself as far as I can from such things. They gave me a bad temper and, frankly, I don't think I should get into politics at all. It kindda stirs up what's worst in me.
For what? Arresting me for what? I'm not allowed to stand up for myself? I thought this was America! Huh? Isn't this America? I'm sorry, I thought this was America.

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Re: How are we any different?
« Reply #39 on: February 03, 2016, 04:26:02 AM »
@Vollnutt: don't adress me. Ever.
I'd put you on ignore if I could. Just assume you are on ignore since I'm not answering any of your stuff.

You can put others on ignore. (Profile - Modify - Buddy/Ignore List) Whether they continue to address your posts is beyond your control.

Thank God for that.
I didn't come here to join squabbles with politically disaligned people.
In fact, I didn't come here to join any political discussions at all, hence the reason I didn't and won't ask to join the political forum.
I'd like to distance myself as far as I can from such things. They gave me a bad temper and, frankly, I don't think I should get into politics at all. It kindda stirs up what's worst in me.

Instead about you talking about how you do not talk about pokitics you could just stop talking about politics (what you haven't done). That would have more sense.
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