Author Topic: Homosexuality among monastics  (Read 5981 times)

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Offline wgw

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Homosexuality among monastics
« on: January 20, 2016, 02:38:44 PM »
I thought about posing this as a question in response to the thread Mor posted in Chritian News, but was concerned of the possibility for debate/polemics in response.

How common is it for monastics to struggle with homoerotic passions or inclinations?  I recall reading in the Pedalion a canon that precluded those who "despised womankind" or somesuch from becoming monks, but is anything like this enforced? 

Fr. Seraphim Rose is a successful example of someone who converted from a homosexual lifestyle to celibate monasticism.  Based on that at least, would I be correct in assuming that hegumens would not invariably turn away a potential novice owing to a history of homosexual inclination?

Also, what is the history of homosexual violation of monastic vows in Orthodoxy?  I myself am acquainted mainly with recent events like the unpleasant situation with HOCNA and their monastery.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2016, 02:43:00 PM »
I recall when reading Sayings of the Desert Fathers, there was a lament that the monks were chasing after boys and young men too much, so I imagine it goes back to the beginning.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2016, 02:44:26 PM »
Also, what is the history of homosexual violation of monastic vows in Orthodoxy? 

Judging from what the Desert Fathers and other monastic saints say about it, pederasty seems to have been an epidemic in ancient monasticism.

E.g.,

He who gorges himself and talks with a boy has already in his thought committed fornication with him. - Abba John the Dwarf

Do not bring boys here. Boys were the reason why four monasteries in Scetis were deserted. - Isaac of Thebaid
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 02:54:29 PM by Iconodule »
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2016, 03:09:30 PM »
it ain't all  that bad. A few years  ago a Ronanian abbess made headlines for having had twins ,  unbethrodeted and knowing no man as it were.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2016, 03:12:36 PM »
I thought about posing this as a question in response to the thread Mor posted in Chritian News, but was concerned of the possibility for debate/polemics in response.

How common is it for monastics to struggle with homoerotic passions or inclinations?  I recall reading in the Pedalion a canon that precluded those who "despised womankind" or somesuch from becoming monks, but is anything like this enforced?
How does a man despise women by loving another man? ???
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Offline wgw

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2016, 03:13:58 PM »
Also, what is the history of homosexual violation of monastic vows in Orthodoxy? 

Judging from what the Desert Fathers and other monastic saints say about it, pederasty seems to have been an epidemic in ancient monasticism.

E.g.,

He who gorges himself and talks with a boy has already in his thought committed fornication with him. - Abba John the Dwarf

Do not bring boys here. Boys were the reason why four monasteries in Scetis were deserted. - Isaac of Thebaid

Now many modern monasteries like St. Anthony's in Florence AZ have many children who visit them, and no incidence of pederasty.  What has changed?

What has come up of late seems to be with homosexuality between adult men.   Some of whom, granted, are young adults, but older than the boys involved in, for example, classical Athenian pederasty.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline wgw

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2016, 03:14:56 PM »
I thought about posing this as a question in response to the thread Mor posted in Chritian News, but was concerned of the possibility for debate/polemics in response.

How common is it for monastics to struggle with homoerotic passions or inclinations?  I recall reading in the Pedalion a canon that precluded those who "despised womankind" or somesuch from becoming monks, but is anything like this enforced?
How does a man despise women by loving another man? ???

Some homosexuals dislike women and/or the idea of sex with a woman; in Britain fifty years ago it would not have been uncommon for a homosexual to be referred to as a "misogynist."
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2016, 03:21:35 PM »
Also, what is the history of homosexual violation of monastic vows in Orthodoxy? 

Judging from what the Desert Fathers and other monastic saints say about it, pederasty seems to have been an epidemic in ancient monasticism.

E.g.,

He who gorges himself and talks with a boy has already in his thought committed fornication with him. - Abba John the Dwarf

Do not bring boys here. Boys were the reason why four monasteries in Scetis were deserted. - Isaac of Thebaid

Now many modern monasteries like St. Anthony's in Florence AZ have many children who visit them, and no incidence of pederasty.  What has changed?

My guess is that pederasty is reviled in our society, whereas it was still quite commonly accepted in late antiquity. This in turn affects the mentality of men entering the monasteries.
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2016, 03:22:49 PM »
Also, what is the history of homosexual violation of monastic vows in Orthodoxy? 

Judging from what the Desert Fathers and other monastic saints say about it, pederasty seems to have been an epidemic in ancient monasticism.

E.g.,

He who gorges himself and talks with a boy has already in his thought committed fornication with him. - Abba John the Dwarf

Do not bring boys here. Boys were the reason why four monasteries in Scetis were deserted. - Isaac of Thebaid

Now many modern monasteries like St. Anthony's in Florence AZ have many children who visit them, and no incidence of pederasty.  What has changed?

What has come up of late seems to be with homosexuality between adult men.   Some of whom, granted, are young adults, but older than the boys involved in, for example, classical Athenian pederasty.
A whole lot more accountability and oversight. Back then, many children were just street urchins that could easily have been plied with food or shelter. Children that go to a modern monastery are likely there with their parents. Monasteries now are much more thorough and do background checks as opposed to back in the good ol' days where a murderer could show up and they would tonsure him.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2016, 03:23:37 PM »
I thought about posing this as a question in response to the thread Mor posted in Chritian News, but was concerned of the possibility for debate/polemics in response.

How common is it for monastics to struggle with homoerotic passions or inclinations?  I recall reading in the Pedalion a canon that precluded those who "despised womankind" or somesuch from becoming monks, but is anything like this enforced?
How does a man despise women by loving another man? ???

Some homosexuals dislike women and/or the idea of sex with a woman; in Britain fifty years ago it would not have been uncommon for a homosexual to be referred to as a "misogynist."

Yes, it was not uncommon for some second wave feminists to accuse gay men of misogyny. However, I believe the canon you are referring to has more to do with despising marriage.
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2016, 03:26:58 PM »
Also, what is the history of homosexual violation of monastic vows in Orthodoxy? 

Judging from what the Desert Fathers and other monastic saints say about it, pederasty seems to have been an epidemic in ancient monasticism.

E.g.,

He who gorges himself and talks with a boy has already in his thought committed fornication with him. - Abba John the Dwarf

Do not bring boys here. Boys were the reason why four monasteries in Scetis were deserted. - Isaac of Thebaid

Now many modern monasteries like St. Anthony's in Florence AZ have many children who visit them, and no incidence of pederasty.  What has changed?

What has come up of late seems to be with homosexuality between adult men.   Some of whom, granted, are young adults, but older than the boys involved in, for example, classical Athenian pederasty.
A whole lot more accountability and oversight. Back then, many children were just street urchins that could easily have been plied with food or shelter. Children that go to a modern monastery are likely there with their parents. Monasteries now are much more thorough and do background checks as opposed to back in the good ol' days where a murderer could show up and they would tonsure him.

Yeah, that's true. But let's be clear, "no incidence of pederasty" is a bit of a stretch too. There are a recent few well-publicized incidents which I need not name.
“Steel isn't strong, boy, flesh is stronger! That is strength, boy! That is power! What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  Contemplate this on the tree of woe.” - Elder Thulsa Doom of the Mountain of Power

Mencius said, “Instruction makes use of many techniques. When I do not deign to instruct someone, that too is a form of instruction.”

Come look at my lame blog

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2016, 03:36:32 PM »
I thought about posing this as a question in response to the thread Mor posted in Chritian News, but was concerned of the possibility for debate/polemics in response.

How common is it for monastics to struggle with homoerotic passions or inclinations?  I recall reading in the Pedalion a canon that precluded those who "despised womankind" or somesuch from becoming monks, but is anything like this enforced?
How does a man despise women by loving another man? ???

Some homosexuals dislike women and/or the idea of sex with a woman; in Britain fifty years ago it would not have been uncommon for a homosexual to be referred to as a "misogynist."
But saying that "Some homosexuals dislike women and/or the idea of sex with a woman" is logically not the same as your initial insinuation that homosexual inclination is essentially equivalent to despising women.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 03:37:21 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2016, 03:44:01 PM »
I thought about posing this as a question in response to the thread Mor posted in Chritian News, but was concerned of the possibility for debate/polemics in response.

How common is it for monastics to struggle with homoerotic passions or inclinations?  I recall reading in the Pedalion a canon that precluded those who "despised womankind" or somesuch from becoming monks, but is anything like this enforced?
How does a man despise women by loving another man? ???

Some homosexuals dislike women and/or the idea of sex with a woman; in Britain fifty years ago it would not have been uncommon for a homosexual to be referred to as a "misogynist."
But saying that "Some homosexuals dislike women and/or the idea of sex with a woman" is logically not the same as your initial insinuation that homosexual inclination is essentially equivalent to despising women.
Those are the canon's words. I don't think anyone expects a canon to parse words when condemning a sin.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2016, 03:53:09 PM »
I thought about posing this as a question in response to the thread Mor posted in Chritian News, but was concerned of the possibility for debate/polemics in response.

How common is it for monastics to struggle with homoerotic passions or inclinations?  I recall reading in the Pedalion a canon that precluded those who "despised womankind" or somesuch from becoming monks, but is anything like this enforced?
How does a man despise women by loving another man? ???

Some homosexuals dislike women and/or the idea of sex with a woman; in Britain fifty years ago it would not have been uncommon for a homosexual to be referred to as a "misogynist."
But saying that "Some homosexuals dislike women and/or the idea of sex with a woman" is logically not the same as your initial insinuation that homosexual inclination is essentially equivalent to despising women.
Those are the canon's words. I don't think anyone expects a canon to parse words when condemning a sin.
But wgw makes faulty logical equivalences out of the canon's words. The canon, as wgw quoted it, does not equate homosexual inclination with the despising of womankind as wgw does. It's possible for a homosexual to not despise women just as it's possible for a heterosexual to despise women.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2016, 03:54:03 PM »
Some of the replies here imply that monastics were/are almost exclusively homosexual.  I've met several monks who were battling their passions because of their past excesses with women.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 03:54:23 PM by scamandrius »
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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2016, 04:13:30 PM »
Some of the replies here imply that monastics were/are almost exclusively homosexual.  I've met several monks who were battling their passions because of their past excesses with women.

If anyone thought to smear monasticism as being some sort of retreat for closet gays, I would sharply criticize them as an enemy of the church and as a slanderer.  I just feel I should put that on record; the experience with Orthodoxy suggests our monastics are overwhelmingly not gay, and we might have less of a problem with pederasty than certain other, shall we say, denominations.

This thread is an inquiry into a very limited, rare and unusual abuse of the monastic system; it is not my intent to besmirch the holy monastic vocation.
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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2016, 04:19:53 PM »

Why should we be overly concerned about which passions the monks are fighting against?

How does wondering whether they are gay or not help lead us to our own salvation?

Just leave them alone.  They battle demons every day.  Things we cannot even imagine.


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Offline wgw

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2016, 04:25:11 PM »

Why should we be overly concerned about which passions the monks are fighting against?

How does wondering whether they are gay or not help lead us to our own salvation?

Just leave them alone.  They battle demons every day.  Things we cannot even imagine.

This was not the point of the thread.  The point is rather to understand the historical and practical context of this very isolated problem.
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Offline Bob2

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2016, 04:25:26 PM »

But wgw makes faulty logical equivalences out of the canon's words. The canon, as wgw quoted it, does not equate homosexual inclination with the despising of womankind as wgw does. It's possible for a homosexual to not despise women just as it's possible for a heterosexual to despise women.

Quote
eu·phe·mism
ˈyo͞ofəˌmizəm
noun
a mild or indirect word or expression substituted for one considered to be too harsh or blunt when referring to something unpleasant or embarrassing.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 04:27:32 PM by Bob2 »

Offline wgw

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2016, 04:25:48 PM »

Why should we be overly concerned about which passions the monks are fighting against?

How does wondering whether they are gay or not help lead us to our own salvation?

Just leave them alone.  They battle demons every day.  Things we cannot even imagine.

That said, I do salute you for the deep seated piety this reply evinces.
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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2016, 04:35:04 PM »
Some of the replies here imply that monastics were/are almost exclusively homosexual.  I've met several monks who were battling their passions because of their past excesses with women.

Every religious male celibate I've known, save one, was homosexual and "struggling" to one degree or another with it. Meaning from having a de facto same sex marriage or clearly gay and trying not to act on it.

This was mostly old world guys, so maybe the more rampant homophobia drive more gays into the habit than here in the states. But based on the number of lisping monks I've met here, I dunno.

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2016, 04:41:59 PM »
Some of the replies here imply that monastics were/are almost exclusively homosexual.  I've met several monks who were battling their passions because of their past excesses with women.

Every religious male celibate I've known, save one, was homosexual and "struggling" to one degree or another with it. Meaning from having a de facto same sex marriage or clearly gay and trying not to act on it.

This was mostly old world guys, so maybe the more rampant homophobia drive more gays into the habit than here in the states. But based on the number of lisping monks I've met here, I dunno.

I have encountered no monk, and I've met around 50, who had a gay lisp.   Indeed, none of them struck me as being gay.
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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2016, 04:43:04 PM »
Nor can you hear anyone here speak....
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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2016, 04:44:19 PM »
Some of the replies here imply that monastics were/are almost exclusively homosexual.  I've met several monks who were battling their passions because of their past excesses with women.

Every religious male celibate I've known, save one, was homosexual and "struggling" to one degree or another with it. Meaning from having a de facto same sex marriage or clearly gay and trying not to act on it.

This was mostly old world guys, so maybe the more rampant homophobia drive more gays into the habit than here in the states. But based on the number of lisping monks I've met here, I dunno.

I have encountered no monk, and I've met around 50, who had a gay lisp.   Indeed, none of them struck me as being gay.
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Offline RobS

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #24 on: January 20, 2016, 04:45:30 PM »
Dis gon git gud.
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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #25 on: January 20, 2016, 04:48:36 PM »
Nor can you hear anyone here speak....

I believe by "here" orthonorm was referring to the US and perhaps Canada
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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #26 on: January 20, 2016, 04:49:36 PM »
Nor can you hear anyone here speak....

I believe by "here" orthonorm was referring to the US and perhaps Canada



Don't be so charitable.
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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2016, 04:52:27 PM »
By the way, I very much hope we can have an interesting discussion on this point without descending into any sprt of smears against holy Monasticism or our celibate episcopate, who are beyond reproach on an institutional level.

The goal here, by the way, was not to engage in unpleasant speculation about monasticism, or to besmirch it in any respect; if in fact we can't discuss it without going down that road, I would hope the mods lock it, as I did not want that.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2016, 04:54:39 PM »
Some of the replies here imply that monastics were/are almost exclusively homosexual.  I've met several monks who were battling their passions because of their past excesses with women.

Every religious male celibate I've known, save one, was homosexual and "struggling" to one degree or another with it. Meaning from having a de facto same sex marriage or clearly gay and trying not to act on it.

This was mostly old world guys, so maybe the more rampant homophobia drive more gays into the habit than here in the states. But based on the number of lisping monks I've met here, I dunno.

I have encountered no monk, and I've met around 50, who had a gay lisp.   Indeed, none of them struck me as being gay.
Oh dear, I don't want to have to be the one to tell you that gay =/= lisp, but I suppose the lot has fallen to me.
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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2016, 05:01:02 PM »
I have encountered no monk, and I've met around 50, who had a gay lisp.   Indeed, none of them struck me as being gay.

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2016, 05:13:23 PM »
Some of the replies here imply that monastics were/are almost exclusively homosexual.  I've met several monks who were battling their passions because of their past excesses with women.

Every religious male celibate I've known, save one, was homosexual and "struggling" to one degree or another with it. Meaning from having a de facto same sex marriage or clearly gay and trying not to act on it.

This was mostly old world guys, so maybe the more rampant homophobia drive more gays into the habit than here in the states. But based on the number of lisping monks I've met here, I dunno.

I have encountered no monk, and I've met around 50, who had a gay lisp.   Indeed, none of them struck me as being gay.
Oh dear, I don't want to have to be the one to tell you that gay =/= lisp, but I suppose the lot has fallen to me.

Most gays I've met do not lisp.

So as to clarify; I never got the sense that any monk was gay based on other factors.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 05:13:55 PM by wgw »
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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2016, 05:20:02 PM »
So as to clarify; I never got the sense that any monk was gay based on other factors.

Don't dig yourself in any farther than you already have. Some of us gays fly right under the radar. So unless you jump into bed with these monastics you're unlikely to know for sure.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2016, 05:21:34 PM »
Some of the replies here imply that monastics were/are almost exclusively homosexual.  I've met several monks who were battling their passions because of their past excesses with women.

Every religious male celibate I've known, save one, was homosexual and "struggling" to one degree or another with it. Meaning from having a de facto same sex marriage or clearly gay and trying not to act on it.

This was mostly old world guys, so maybe the more rampant homophobia drive more gays into the habit than here in the states. But based on the number of lisping monks I've met here, I dunno.

I have encountered no monk, and I've met around 50, who had a gay lisp.   Indeed, none of them struck me as being gay.
Oh dear, I don't want to have to be the one to tell you that gay =/= lisp, but I suppose the lot has fallen to me.

Most gays I've met do not lisp.

So as to clarify; I never got the sense that any monk was gay based on other factors.
Are you under the impression that gay people wear shirts saying I am Gay or are incapable of resisting the urge to hit on you? What sort of gaydar do you have?

I've had friends for years that suddenly came out and told me they were gay. I had no idea. If those were friends that I didn't know about, how are you going to sense it after meeting with a monk for a few minutes or even an hour.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2016, 05:29:57 PM »
I wish he told us more about that handsome Armenian archbishop of archimandrite whose masses he attended and at whose looks  he used to marvel though
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 05:30:21 PM by augustin717 »
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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2016, 06:34:13 PM »
OK, first of all, its been shown that cross culturally, people's gaydar is rather accurate.

Secondly, I didn't have to rely on a lisp as other sounds were emitted.

My friend who was attempting to discern becoming a RC monastic suggested I visit when I was abroad. I asked if I could bring my GF, she could of course stay in another to accommodate their piety.

He embarrassingly said no as it was against the rules.

Why embarrassingly? Cause when I did stay, he was clearly the only straight guy there, so not sure who she would've tempted.

Since this was in Central Europe, most of the monastics, would be, or otherwise, were from Eastern Europe. My friend had decided opinions after living with these men for over a year. That they clearly were entering a place where they could be left alone to be gay to whatever degree that meant. He was scandalized and put off by it all.

Should get I more specific? The Orthodox are not immune, not even Mt. Athos. I have a great story about an acquaintance of mine, an famously openly gay man. He loved spirituality. He took a gay cruise, on of the stops suggested? Mt. Athos. He didn't know I was Orthodox per se, so didn't see any need to spare my worldview his experience. Which on his part was rather pious, other folks there, not to much.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 07:06:43 PM by orthonorm »

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2016, 06:35:28 PM »
Nor can you hear anyone here speak....

I believe by "here" orthonorm was referring to the US and perhaps Canada



Don't be so charitable.

Again why all the whitespace?

And wgw was correct. Charity is virtue, why suggest anyone not practice it? You implication borders on the insulting. Please cease to insult me in the future. Thank you.

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2016, 07:02:47 PM »
Lulz to wgw for having started the thread. Most ridiulous in a month or something.
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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2016, 07:05:22 PM »
Lulz to wgw for having started the thread. Most ridiulous in a month or something.

Frankly I wish I hadn't, at this point.
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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2016, 07:16:46 PM »
Lulz to wgw for having started the thread. Most ridiulous in a month or something.

Frankly I wish I hadn't, at this point.

It's quite obvious to anyone with eyes that your posts get exceptionally wacky when "homosexuality" comes up, even if it only comes up in your own mind and then you introduce it into a thread or start one about it.  You're better off not talking about it at all. 
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Offline wgw

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2016, 07:54:04 PM »
Lulz to wgw for having started the thread. Most ridiulous in a month or something.

Frankly I wish I hadn't, at this point.

It's quite obvious to anyone with eyes that your posts get exceptionally wacky when "homosexuality" comes up, even if it only comes up in your own mind and then you introduce it into a thread or start one about it.  You're better off not talking about it at all.

As far as this thread is concerned, I agree.  That said, I am particularly sickened by what goes on in, for example, the ECUSA, but fortunately the Orthodox Church is far from that.

My point, in starting this thread, was to seek to explore the historical context of homosexuality in Orthodox monasticism; my agenda was a certain hope to refute what I regard as the pernicious lie that Orthodox monastics are more likely than most to engage in this activity.
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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2016, 07:55:21 PM »
OK, first of all, its been shown that cross culturally, people's gaydar is rather accurate.

Secondly, I didn't have to rely on a lisp as other sounds were emitted.

My friend who was attempting to discern becoming a RC monastic suggested I visit when I was abroad. I asked if I could bring my GF, she could of course stay in another to accommodate their piety.

He embarrassingly said no as it was against the rules.

Why embarrassingly? Cause when I did stay, he was clearly the only straight guy there, so not sure who she would've tempted.

Since this was in Central Europe, most of the monastics, would be, or otherwise, were from Eastern Europe. My friend had decided opinions after living with these men for over a year. That they clearly were entering a place where they could be left alone to be gay to whatever degree that meant. He was scandalized and put off by it all.

Should get I more specific? The Orthodox are not immune, not even Mt. Athos. I have a great story about an acquaintance of mine, an famously openly gay man. He loved spirituality. He took a gay cruise, on of the stops suggested? Mt. Athos. He didn't know I was Orthodox per se, so didn't see any need to spare my worldview his experience. Which on his part was rather pious, other folks there, not to much.

What you are discussing here seems to be rather RC specific.  I assume/hope you do not hold a similiar view of EO/OO monasticism.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2016, 08:08:56 PM »
There is a monastery close to home.  A few years ago a video surfaced on YouTube where the abbot was being spanked by a male visitor;  he's still the abbot  but I think they dished out some punishment to him despite the fact that he seems to enjoy being punished.
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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2016, 08:27:39 PM »
OK, first of all, its been shown that cross culturally, people's gaydar is rather accurate.

Secondly, I didn't have to rely on a lisp as other sounds were emitted.

My friend who was attempting to discern becoming a RC monastic suggested I visit when I was abroad. I asked if I could bring my GF, she could of course stay in another to accommodate their piety.

He embarrassingly said no as it was against the rules.

Why embarrassingly? Cause when I did stay, he was clearly the only straight guy there, so not sure who she would've tempted.

Since this was in Central Europe, most of the monastics, would be, or otherwise, were from Eastern Europe. My friend had decided opinions after living with these men for over a year. That they clearly were entering a place where they could be left alone to be gay to whatever degree that meant. He was scandalized and put off by it all.

Should get I more specific? The Orthodox are not immune, not even Mt. Athos. I have a great story about an acquaintance of mine, an famously openly gay man. He loved spirituality. He took a gay cruise, on of the stops suggested? Mt. Athos. He didn't know I was Orthodox per se, so didn't see any need to spare my worldview his experience. Which on his part was rather pious, other folks there, not to much.

What you are discussing here seems to be rather RC specific.  I assume/hope you do not hold a similiar view of EO/OO monasticism.

How specific should I get?

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2016, 11:39:26 PM »
Lulz to wgw for having started the thread. Most ridiulous in a month or something.

Frankly I wish I hadn't, at this point.

It's quite obvious to anyone with eyes that your posts get exceptionally wacky when "homosexuality" comes up, even if it only comes up in your own mind and then you introduce it into a thread or start one about it.  You're better off not talking about it at all.

As far as this thread is concerned, I agree.  That said, I am particularly sickened by what goes on in, for example, the ECUSA, but fortunately the Orthodox Church is far from that.

My point, in starting this thread, was to seek to explore the historical context of homosexuality in Orthodox monasticism; my agenda was a certain hope to refute what I regard as the pernicious lie that Orthodox monastics are more likely than most to engage in this activity.

Don't be so sure. 

From the Monastic Rule of St Joseph Volotsky, Discourse IX, That it is not proper for beardless boys to live in the monastery: It is said in the Geronticon: It is not proper for those who would be saved to be in a house or any other place where there are children, because for monks, children are more evil than women. Therefore children shall not be allowed in the cells or in the monastery for any work.  If any brother must have something done in his cell, then send him someone his own age not a beardless one.

If this rule had to made you can be sure it was because monks were violating it.
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Re: Homosexuality among monastics
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2016, 01:30:41 AM »
Some of the replies here imply that monastics were/are almost exclusively homosexual.  I've met several monks who were battling their passions because of their past excesses with women.

Every religious male celibate I've known, save one, was homosexual and "struggling" to one degree or another with it. Meaning from having a de facto same sex marriage or clearly gay and trying not to act on it.

This was mostly old world guys, so maybe the more rampant homophobia drive more gays into the habit than here in the states. But based on the number of lisping monks I've met here, I dunno.

I have encountered no monk, and I've met around 50, who had a gay lisp.   Indeed, none of them struck me as being gay.
Oh dear, I don't want to have to be the one to tell you that gay =/= lisp, but I suppose the lot has fallen to me.

Most gays I've met do not lisp.

So as to clarify; I never got the sense that any monk was gay based on other factors.
Are you under the impression that gay people wear shirts saying I am Gay or are incapable of resisting the urge to hit on you?

Yes.

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