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Author Topic: +John, Archbishop in Jail  (Read 48473 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 29, 2005, 03:37:06 AM »

Macedonian government has jailed Archbishop John of Ohrid and Skopje.

The Court of Appeal in Bitola has Confirmed the Punishment to Eighteen Months of Imprisonment to His Beatitude the Archbishop of Ohrid and the Metropolitan of Skopje kyr kyr John

After long postponings, on 22nd of June, 2005, the Court of Appeals in Bitola has at last maintained a session upon the appeal of His Beatitude, the Archbishop of Ohrid and the Metropolitan of Skopje kyr kyr John, who was sentenced to a punishment of 18 months imprisonment at hard labour by the Court of First Instance in Bitola. The President of the Court of Appeal, Judge Kice Juzevski, published the sentence of the Court of Appeal in Bitola on 23rd of June, 2005, dealing with the appeal in the following panel : Judge Vasko Kuzevski, the Chairman, judge Vladimir Radevski, reporter and judge Nedzat Ajro.

As many times so far, the justice of the Republic of Macedonia has revealed itself as a circus of a very poor, extremely provincial character, with regard to proceedings related to the Bishops, clergy and faithful people of the Orthodox Ohrid Archbishopric. Even if this case was the only one, not to count many others when the sentences were unjust, everyone would understand why the judiciary of the Republic of Macedonia is the most corrupted institution with the lowest reputation and confidence by the citizens.

In the long run, it cannot be expected from an assembly of political poltroons such the majority of the judges in the Courts of Law of the Republic of Macedonia are, that they will lay foundation of a good judiciary being also a foundation of a successful state. The Republic of Macedonia has not raised the head thereof even fifteen years after the fall of the communism, and it remained to be the last communist bastion in Eastern Europe, just due to the corrupted judiciary.

Such a Court of Law, today, in the 21st century tried the orthodox faith of the Archbishop of Ohrid and the Metropolitan of Skopje kyr kyr John, who have been many times tried and even more times witnessed, and has sentenced him to eighteen months of imprisonment because he did not want to bow down before the people from the Government who think of themselves as of gods.

To sentence a Head of a local Orthodox Church for incitement of ethnic and religious hatred means to condemn his confession, for he is not an individual with an autonomous opinion, but a representative of the Church he leads and of the faith confessed by that Church. If the Patriarch of Constantinople or the Patriarch of Russia, or any other Head of any local Church were before the aforesaid Court Panel, it is more than certain that the aforesaid ‘honourable court’ would have sentenced even them.

Today the confession of all the orthodox Christians worldwide has been tried, i.e., all the ones who deem the so called Macedonian Orthodox Church to be a schismatic one and who are not in unity with it. All the Bishops of all the orthodox Churches worldwide who are not in communion neither with the clergy, nor with the laymen of the schismatic organisation in he Republic of Маcedonia have been tried today, not because they do not want the unity, but because the heresy produced by the schismatic in the Republic of Macedonia is an obstacle for it. Moreover, the history of the Republic of Macedonia and the future thereof has been tried today.

People who defend the history with a sward and not with argumentation is not worthy for the future. People who are not aware that the future cannot be founded on false foundations resemble to the unfortunate man who builds a house on sand as mentioned in the Gospel. A church which has found an ally in the Government aiming to perform an inquisition together with it, has never been a Church and will never be.

Actually, if the case of the Archbishop John is analysed more carefully, it shall be seen that it is not the Archbishop himself, but the very state institutions in the Republic of Macedonia are the ones who instigate ethnic, religious and even international hatred. It is obvious to the whole world that all the neighbouring countries of the Republic of Macedonia are deemed to be enemies for the authorities thereof. How can they accede the European Union or NATO when they would create problems to all as such?

Nevertheless, the grace of God embraces us in this grief. We are sad, by also joyful, for God has granted us a worthy Archpriest to witness the faith. He has granted us a real light enlightening the throne of the Ohrid archbishops as an 84th one. The word martyr is not a literal translation from the Greek "martiras". Martiras means a witness, one who witnesses the faith even with his own blood if necessary. Our archpriest is just like that. As a lamb irreproachable before the ones who fleeces it. He encourages us all with his inspirational prayers and faith. The one who is “taken for slaughtering” finds comfort for every one of us, cheering us and saying : “I did not pray to be deliberated from a sentence to imprisonment, but I prayed : God, let Your will be done, and may You be glorified through this. I advice you also to ask from God that His will be done when praying for me but also when praying for yourselves. That will be the best thing for me, but also for you.”

What else to say to you, our father and Bishop, but : Axios. Bear your cross worthwhile for us who are week, but also for the ones who do not know what they are doing, so that we gain resurrection and eternal life by virtue of your prayers.

From the Editorial Office of the Information Service of the Orthodox Ohrid Archbishopric



http://www.poa-info.org/index.php?l=en
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2005, 02:33:23 PM »

http://www.mpc.org.mk/English/news2.asp?id=909

Why are some Serbian Episcopes and the Serbian servants in Macedonia twittering ( 30.07.2005 )

It is not nice indeed, as a journalist of ours says, to see a man in a clerical cassock going to prison. And we are sorry for that. Certainly, it is not nice to see anyone going to prison nor do we wish anyone that. On the contrary, the Church everyday prays and it is incumbent on it to pray for those who are in prison as well. Yet, likewise, it is not nice and not only not nice but it is also very nasty, and it is great evil — to be completely open, a genuine satanic deed — when someone is trying, by means of huge lies, threats and political games to hold captive (isolated) for the communion with the other Orthodox Churches and with the other Orthodox nations three million Orthodox Christians (just because they were born and feel as Macedonians, and the one negates them or does not recognise them under that name) and the Church in which they are in communion with Christ.

            Indeed it is not nice to knock down or damage whosever religious building or shrine. And we are sorry for that. Yet, it is great evil and a genuine satanic deed when one is trying through creation of a parallel hierarchy to knock down and destroy a living Church, Body of Christ, and that only because of the administrative name that Church bears. To destroy a Church comprised of millions of living persons. Comprised of people who want to be saved, people who constantly seek and need God’s help, people who in tears and repentance confess their sins and people who in yearning expect and communicate of the Body and Blood of Christ. Comprised of people who are our Orthodox brothers and for whom Christ suffered so much. Children of God with whom Christ identifies Himself: inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me (Matt. 25:45)! Moreover, an attempt is being made to demolish a living Church which in the last ten years has been giving its most beautiful fruits, and these are the renewed monasticism and the living monasteries, a refuge and consolation to many wounded and ill souls, yet also spiritual centres from which the new Episcopes of the field of God already came as well.

            Of imprisonment of a clerical person in a physical prison on the basis of a verdict and of physical knocking down of a material shrine on the basis of a resolution of a competent governmental organ (in default of a planning permission) accused before the whole world are the Macedonian State and Church. Of the attempt to hold in the prison of administrative isolation and of the attempt to knock down the living church community of the Holy Spirit, comprised of living persons who are in great need of and seek the visible eucharistic community with the other Orthodox brothers as well, we are accusing the Serbian State and Church. All this, let us be honest with each other, is familiar to all the Orthodox Episcopes. Still, whose deed is more serious, if it is possible to make any comparison whatsoever? The physical imprisonment of one man and the physical knocking down of the material shrine in the beginning of its construction or the spiritual prison of a whole nation and the knocking down of the spiritual shrine comprised of living persons in the image of God? It is obvious, to every normal and well-intentioned man, let alone to an Orthodox Christian or an Episcope, the disproportionate, we would say mild response of the Macedonian State and Church in comparison with the great crime the Serbian Church and State are trying to execute in the Republic of Macedonia. The Macedonian response when compared with the Serbian fratricidal venture may be assessed as an ordinary pedagogical measure or a child’s toy.

            And what is happening after all…? While the former (the Macedonian State and Church) from positions of state and church isolation are timidly trying to explain to the world and to the local Orthodox Churches their condition and their actions, the latter (the Serbian Church and State) from their established church positions are additionally threatening the former, and are simultaneously slandering them throughout the world representing their servants and mercenaries — among the Orthodox as martyrs for the faith (?), and before the Western world as sufferers for human religious rights and freedom. We see that at least that they know very well… where and how to represent themselves.

            Now, let us say and acknowledge that both things are not good, particularly when they happen among Orthodox brothers. However, simply catches the eye the great disproportion in the relations and the question imposes itself: how can it be that the atrocious crime the Serbian Church and state are trying to implement, that is, the pastoral missing and negation of a whole nation and the attempt to isolate (capture) and demolish its Church, they are justifying and showing as good, and the legal penalty their servants and mercenaries are given in the Republic of Macedonia, that is, the knocking down of a started shrine and the imprisonment of one man, they to see as such great evil, so they have to wail and twitter throughout the world? Certainly, if they knew what is the difference between a ‘media political marketing’ and a ‘martyric ethos’ they by no means would have done that.

             If we answered the above raised question, with the language of the holy Fathers we would say: the men are possessed by ‘conceit’, that is, by ‘high opinion of themselves’ and of their deeds, that is, by ‘demonic delusion’. It is thus, for only the superiority complex or the high idea of oneself can blind a man to that extent so that even his evil deeds he justifies and glorifies, while even the good deeds of the other one — “the lower”, “the worthless” — seem to him evil and valueless. If we did not have Christ as a criterion, and also the comparison or the disproportion between what the Serbian Orthodox Church does and suffers and what the Macedonian Orthodox Church does and suffers, many of us could possibly be deceived by the Serbian propaganda; not now, though. It is particularly important that no one in the Republic of Macedonia was deceived, and so the attempt the Serbian Orthodox Church had made to split our faithful Orthodox people has failed this time again.

            And what did the Godman Christ say to all of us in His Gospel: Why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye (Matt. 7:3-5)!

            If someone thinks we are too harsh in the assessment of the existing situation, he is welcome to live with us as an Orthodox Christian or an Episcope and let him crucify himself on the cross called Macedonia, so when the blood he sheds for the Church of God here he sees constantly mixed with the spits of non-recognition he is to receive in return for his suffering, then he will see that we are much, much too mild and restrained when writing all this and in the language we are using at that.

 

Metropolitan Nahum of Strumica (Macedonian Orthodox Church - Archbishphoric of Ohrid)
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2005, 02:36:36 PM »

THE SERBIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH CONTINUES TO DISREGARD SOVERIGNTY OF  REGIONAL NATIONS

http://www.kanal5.com.mk/ShowNews.aspx?ItemID=6519&mid=1500&tabId=1&tabindex=0

Official representatives of the Serbian Orthodox Church, lead by
Metropolitan Amfilohie, blessed the small, metal church atop of the
mountain Rumia at Bar, although the Montenegrin government gave them
until tomorrow to remove the illegal object. A few hundred Serbian
faithful and representatives of the pro-Serbian opposition party,
wearing t-shirts baring the face of Radovan Karadic and Ratko
Mladik, without any incident climbed to the top of the mountain
Rumia; a place that has been a of spiritual significance for many in
the diverse Barski region.

The Bishop Amfilohie, blessing the tiny church, called upon all the
faithful to visit the spot, provoking the Montenegrin Parliament,
calling this place the most Holy place because it only speaks of God
and the Church. The blessing ceremony of the small church ended with
a celebration, including musical guests, and an art exhibition
marking the "heroism" of the most wanted European outlaw,
Radovan Karadzhic. The Montenegrin media totally ignored the
ceremonies, as they did on June 21st when local military helicopters
illegally visited the church. However, it is obvious that no one in
the federation is at peace with the tensions committed by this new
aggressive act by the Serbian Orthodox Church.

This afternoon, Montenegrin officials concluded that construction of
that tiny, metal object that resembles a church is the first step
taken in a future Serbian Orthodox Church scenario to try and deny
Montenegrin separation from the federation. The Democratic
Association of Albanians also believe that this is a sign of things
to come, claiming that this sort of provocation has not been seen in
the last 50 years. After installation of the tiny, church,
Montenegrin, unified as never before, issued a stark rebuke to the
Serbian Orthodox spiritual invasion. The Ministry of Urbanism issued
a statement that the church would be removed by the first of August.

The Montenegrin Prime Minister, Milo Gjukanovik came out in defense
of government positions, energetically stating that Podgorica will
not tolerate this disrespect of Montenegrin laws.






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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2005, 04:12:41 PM »

Thank God they keep disregarding sovereignty--because sovereignty is MAN MADE and God does not CARE about it!  Why should there be separate Orthodox Churches in Montenegro, Serbia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, etc? They are all Slavs.  That would make about as much sense as having an OCA jurisdiction in Canada split off from the USA.

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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2005, 04:23:19 PM »

In order to be in brotherhood, or communion, to remove nationalistic "man made" banter, one first has to look at his brother with dignity, one must recognize his brother, one must "do unto others as he would have them do unto him." It was Macedonian Bishops who proposed removal of national terminology from our Churches, to become "one." It was exactly the SOC who denied this...

Regardless, some would disagree as to how "slavic" Macedonians are...
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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2005, 01:52:02 PM »

Metropolitan Herman denounces imprisonment of Archbishop Jovan of Ochrid as "a blatant and shocking assault on freedom of conscience" 
 
Article posted: 7/29/2005 9:39 PM 

SYOSSET, NY [OCA Communications] — In a letter addressed to His Holiness, Patriarch Pavle of Serbia, His Beatitude, Metropolitan Herman, expressed shock over the arrest and imprisonment of His Eminence, Archbishop Jovan of Ochrid in the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia.

The Orthodox Church in the Macedonian Republic unilaterally declared itself autocephalous and broke ties with the Serbian Patriarchate some four decades ago. As such, it is not in communion with the world’s Orthodox sister Churches and has maintained a bitter dispute with the Serbian Church over the patriarchate’s presence in the republic. The patriarchate’s Archbishop Jovan, who broke ties with the schismatic Church in Macedonia and returned to the patriarchate a few years ago, has been the target of anti-patriarchate parties and civil authorities. He was arrested during the last week of July 2005 and sentenced to 18 months in prison in Skopje for allegedly “inciting national, racial, and religious hatred, schism, and intolerance.”

The text of Metropolitan Herman’s letter reads as follows.

“The recent sentencing and imprisonment of His Eminence, Archbishop Jovan of Ochrid by the government of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia causes me to write this letter of solidarity with Your Holiness and with Archbishop Jovan. That a hierarch is judged and imprisoned for speaking and acting in accordance with his conscience is a blatant and shocking assault on freedom of conscience and on freedom of religious faith and practice.

“We are publicly announcing our dismay at the action of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Although the disputes and disagreements with regard to the canonical status of most of the Orthodox hierarchy, clergy, and laity in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia are painful and real, the intervention of civil authorities into the dispute does not and cannot lead to reconciliation.

“We take our stand alongside the Holy Synod of the Serbian Orthodox Church in asking that all possible moral and legal actions be undertaken to secure the freedom of Archbishop Jovan.

“The prayers of the hierarchs, clergy, monastics and faithful of The Orthodox Church in America most certainly continue to be offered to God in hope and expectation of the healing of the schism which separates so many of the Orthodox people of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia from the Serbian Patriarchate and all the other canonical Orthodox Churches.”
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« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2005, 01:56:42 PM »

Once again the goverment of Macedonia and its less than credible clergy have acted against the Church of our Lord.

I feel for the laity in Macedonia who have been lied to for years by certain members of their clergy.

Macedonia has become the symbol of Nationalism over faith.ÂÂ  God forgive them.
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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2005, 02:06:08 PM »

26.07.2005   http://www.poa-info.org/frameset.php?l=en&r=news

His Beatitude the Archbishop of Ohrid and Metropolitan of Skopje kyr kyr Jovan (John) went to Prison Idrizovo

His Beatitude, the Archbishop of Ohrid and Metropolitan of Skopje, kyr kyr Jovan (John), after confirming several times before the public that he would voluntarily go to serve the sentence to which he was convicted, went on his way to the prison Idrizovo, near Skopje. Previously, the Court of Appeal in Bitola rejected his demand to postpone the serving of the prison sentence. As those who gave the written order resolutely pointed out, the Archbishop kyr kyr John was given time until 26 July 2005, midnight, to appear in the prison Idrizovo. As a loyal citizen of the Republic of Macedonia and a man who respects the laws of the state, with the putting into effect of the resolution, went voluntarily to report in the prison.

 
However, the Macedonian society once again failed the exam of following the standards of democracy of the Euro-Atlantic civilization. During his traveling from Bitola to Skopje, the Archbishop kyr kyr John was followed and was stopped by the police on several occasions. When he was stopped, the Archbishop kyr kyr John and the vehicle in which he traveled were thoroughly inspected, however, not even once did the police give a written confirmation that it conducted an inspection.

 
When he was entering Skopje, in the suburb Avtokomanda, the police patrol stopped once again the Archbishop kyr kyr John asking for driving permits. After he gave those to the police, with verbal maltreatment and psychological harassment the same ordered the Archbishop kyr kyr John to transfer into the police vehicle. When the Archbishop asked them if they had a court order and if he could have a copy of the probable warrant, the policemen answered that they would give him a copy at the police station in Avtokomanda, where they invited his traveling companions as well. Yet, the police lied most brutally. Without allowing him to say good bye to his closest, without allowing his closest to take a blessing from their Arch-Pastor, asking him for his prayers, the police cruelly took him to the prison explaining that he was supposed to turn up there before 3 pm.

In the future we recommend the police of Bitola and of Skopje to agree if the period for appearing in the prison is 24 hours or if it is until 3 pm!!!

We remain with the bitterness of the uncivilized gesture which was referred to, even by some of the reporters, as kidnapping of the Archbishop kyr kyr John by the police so that the scenes of his sending away by the numerous priests, monks and members of the Orthodox Ohrid Archbishopric would be avoided.

Still, even when we think that this is the bottom of the being uncivilized of the contemporary Macedonian society, its being uncivilized proves to be a bottomless pit. When his closest arrived to the prison to bring him his necessary personal items and books, the policemen most ruthlessly threw away the book of the New Testament and his cassock (anteri — the priests black mantle) loudly shouting that these were strictly forbidden.

Bitterness befell you Macedonia when you treat like this an Archbishop recognized and confirmed by the entire Orthodox ecumene. You put him behind bars stripping his cassock from him, which is not a uniform but his skin, and you spit on the New Testament for the Christians, on the Koran for the Muslims, the Talmud for the Jews, where these are most needed.

Just as a reminder, we will mention that in the period, which as it proves was unjustly called, Ottoman oppression, he cassocks were never stripped from the imprisoned priests; as a matter of fact there are old documents and photographs to testify this.

His Beatitude the Archbishop of Ohrid and Metropolitan of Skopje kyr kyr John actually testified that he is an icon of Christ of our holy Church. “And as blameless lamb before its shearer is dumb, so He opened not His mouth”. We testify that during all that time he did not utter a single foul word for those who persecute the Church in the Republic of Macedonia. This is exactly why, respecting the laws of the state, he went to serve his prison sentence. Then again, we will say that the verdict is completely unlawful, and we will not make a mistake if we emphasize that it is utter uncouthness. It is truly miserable that in the 21st century a court tries and convicts an Archbishop of a Church for his act according to the Gospel he preaches. It is a great shame for the Republic of Macedonia that the greatest part of its judges in the Courts of Fist Instance and in the Courts of Appeal are just a gang of ignorant and uneducated people who never touched either the Gospel, or other parts of the Holy Scripture. These people still live the communist’s dream of destroying the Church.

Yet, those who need to be ashamed are not. We, the Church of God, the most conscious part of the society are burdened with the shame they should carry. Indeed, after the mindless verdict for the Archbishop kyr kyr John we are ashamed to say that we are the citizens of this country called Republic of Macedonia.

For those who convicted His Beatitude, the Archbishop of Ohrid and Metropolitan of Skopje, kyr kyr John for his Orthodox faith, showing Republic of Macedonia as a country that nurtures a fierce religious discrimination, we can only say what the Gospel teaches us: “Lord forgive them for they know not what they are doing”.
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« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2005, 02:37:51 PM »

In order to be in brotherhood, or communion, to remove nationalistic "man made" banter, one first has to look at his brother with dignity, one must recognize his brother, one must "do unto others as he would have them do unto him." It was Macedonian Bishops who proposed removal of national terminology from our Churches, to become "one." It was exactly the SOC who denied this...

Regardless, some would disagree as to how "slavic" Macedonians are...

It is not only the Patriarchate of Serbia, but the entire Orthodox Church that has determined the so-called 'Macedonian Orthodox Church,' which is neither Macedonian, nor Orthodox, nor even a part of the Church, to be a schismatic pseudo-ecclesiastical Organization. Her so called Bishops are not Bishops but godless schismatics who live a life of perpetual blasphemy against our Lord and His Holy Church, her so-called synod is not a Synod of the Church but a gathering of common thieves, not recognized by a single Synod in all of Christendom. As I have made my view on Schismatics quite plain elsewhere, this posistion should not be surprising, but must be brought up whenever anyone falsely ascribes authority to a synod of schismatics.

May God bestow his Compassion and Loving Mercy on the unjustly persecuted legitimate Archbishop of Ohrid; and may God grant to his persecutors forgiveness and conversion to the True Faith of the Orthodox.
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« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2005, 02:51:22 PM »

Macedonia74,

 ÃƒÆ’‚  Please don't peddle that nonsense here.  First off, the article from Metropolitan Nahum is ridiculous.  Isn't this the same Metropolitan Nahum who first signed the Nis agreement and then later rescinded.

Isn't this the same Metropolitan who has been disavowed by his spiritual father after "fleeing" Holy Mt. Athos?

Isn't this the same Metropolitan seen with "bikers" in Macedonia?

I wouldn't say posting letters from him is going to convince anyone here.
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« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2005, 03:10:53 PM »

Thank God they keep disregarding sovereignty--because sovereignty is MAN MADE and God does not CARE about it!ÂÂ  Why should there be separate Orthodox Churches in Montenegro, Serbia, Bulgaria, Macedonia, etc? They are all Slavs.ÂÂ  That would make about as much sense as having an OCA jurisdiction in Canada split off from the USA.

Well said, but you see the problem is you get this kind of nonsensical response...

Quote
Regardless, some would disagree as to how "slavic" Macedonians are...

While this has nothing to do with the Orthodox Church, it is indicative of the fact that one can never reasonably expect the Macedonians to come to their senses.

You see, about 13 years ago, everyone in the FYROM leadership admitted publically that the "modern" Macedonians had no ties to the ancient Macedonians of Alexander's time.  However, the leadership, realized that if they mainted this (truthful) position, admitting that they are indeed Slavs, the entire puzzle falls apart.

You see, if the pretend they are not Slavs, they *believe* that gives them an entitlement to land in Northern Greece and Western Bulgaria, as well as status as an Autocephalous Church.  It is a wonderful delusion.
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« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2005, 03:49:52 PM »

We should, also, clearly express the truth about the so-called “hierodeacon from Mount Athos, now Metropolitan” Nahum of the “Macedonian Church” which today dwells in schism: he left the Holy Monastery of St. Grigoriou without permission and blessing, passing in Romania where he was ordained into a priestly rank, and later into a bishop by the above-mentioned schismatic “church”. He is momentarily in a state of disobedience and is no relation with the all-reverend Abbot of the Holy Monastery of St. Greigoriou — Archimandrite George who persistently refuses to see him, regardless of the number of times he asked to meet him, during which he showed no remorse. Consequently, he falsely presents himself as a spiritual child of the above mentioned saintly Abbot.

All the Representatives and Abbots who are in
the common Assembly of the twenty
Holy Monasteries of the Holy Mount Athos

(Their words, not mine).

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« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2005, 05:26:38 PM »

In order to be in brotherhood, or communion, to remove nationalistic "man made" banter, one first has to look at his brother with dignity, one must recognize his brother, one must "do unto others as he would have them do unto him." It was Macedonian Bishops who proposed removal of national terminology from our Churches, to become "one." It was exactly the SOC who denied this...

Regardless, some would disagree as to how "slavic" Macedonians are...

macedonia74,
It does not matter how the SOC "denied" this - they are the parent and have every right to grant or not grant their subject Bishophrics.  Those within the "Macedonian Orthodox Church" disobeyed and schismed.  They are in disobedience.  That is the bottom line.  End of story.
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« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2005, 08:18:33 PM »

Elisha,

     Surely you jest.  Could it all be so simple.  Wink
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« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2005, 08:30:58 PM »

It was only a mattter of time before Macedonia made an error of judgement which would cost them any credibility they may have had left in the eyes of the world.
And this is not the first time Archbiop Jovan is imprisoned. He was imprisoned in 2003 for baptizing his sister's grandchild!
What more evidence is required that the schism in Macedonia has turned it's artificial "National identity" into an idol to be worshipped above Christ? An idol at whose altar it is now prepared to offer the human sacrifice of not only a righteous man, but a successor to the Apostles.
If memory serves me correctly, there was another Man of whom Caiaphas said: "It is better for one man to die than the whole nation to perish." (John 11:49-50)
I hope the Confessor of the Faith, Archbishop Jovan is remembering us all in his prayers.
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« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2005, 10:03:02 AM »

http://oca.org/News.asp?ID=817&SID=19

Metropolitan Herman denounces imprisonment of Archbishop Jovan of Ochrid as "a blatant and shocking assault on freedom of conscience"
 
Article posted: 7/29/2005 9:39 PM

SYOSSET, NY [OCA Communications] — In a letter addressed to His Holiness, Patriarch Pavle of Serbia, His Beatitude, Metropolitan Herman, expressed shock over the arrest and imprisonment of His Eminence, Archbishop Jovan of Ochrid in the former Yugoslav republic of Macedonia.

The Orthodox Church in the Macedonian Republic unilaterally declared itself autocephalous and broke ties with the Serbian Patriarchate some four decades ago. As such, it is not in communion with the world’s Orthodox sister Churches and has maintained a bitter dispute with the Serbian Church over the patriarchate’s presence in the republic. The patriarchate’s Archbishop Jovan, who broke ties with the schismatic Church in Macedonia and returned to the patriarchate a few years ago, has been the target of anti-patriarchate parties and civil authorities. He was arrested during the last week of July 2005 and sentenced to 18 months in prison in Skopje for allegedly “inciting national, racial, and religious hatred, schism, and intolerance.”

The text of Metropolitan Herman’s letter reads as follows.

“The recent sentencing and imprisonment of His Eminence, Archbishop Jovan of Ochrid by the government of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia causes me to write this letter of solidarity with Your Holiness and with Archbishop Jovan. That a hierarch is judged and imprisoned for speaking and acting in accordance with his conscience is a blatant and shocking assault on freedom of conscience and on freedom of religious faith and practice.

“We are publicly announcing our dismay at the action of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. Although the disputes and disagreements with regard to the canonical status of most of the Orthodox hierarchy, clergy, and laity in the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia are painful and real, the intervention of civil authorities into the dispute does not and cannot lead to reconciliation.

“We take our stand alongside the Holy Synod of the Serbian Orthodox Church in asking that all possible moral and legal actions be undertaken to secure the freedom of Archbishop Jovan.

“The prayers of the hierarchs, clergy, monastics and faithful of The Orthodox Church in America most certainly continue to be offered to God in hope and expectation of the healing of the schism which separates so many of the Orthodox people of the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia from the Serbian Patriarchate and all the other canonical Orthodox Churches.”
 
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« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2005, 01:10:13 PM »

The Macedonian Orthodox Church — Archbishphoric of Ohrid is the historical continuation of the ancient, autocephalous Archbishphoric of Ohrid. Re-established in 1959, under the blessing of the Serbian Orthodox Holy Synod, the renewed MOC was concelebrated by a joint Liturgy with the Serbian Patriarch German. As an affirmation of support for Macedonian ecclesiastical independence, the Serbian Holy Synod gave this declaration, “the recently inducted Bishops and Eparches in the Republic of Macedonian, of the Macedonian Orthodox Church, are no longer obliged to abide by the constitution of the Serbian Orthodox Church.” It was a joyous day in Orthodox Macedonia; once again, the Macedonian people had their own church. The new Macedonian Orthodox Church had the support of most of orthodoxy including the Serbian Holy Synod. However, Serbian support was short-lived.

A new set of events began in 2002 with the attempts to establish a Serbian sponsored parallel Archbishphoric in the Republic of Macedonia, conspicuously promoting its name as the “Orthodox Archbishphoric of Ohrid,” and led by a former MOC Bishop, Zoran Vranishkovski, alias Bishop Jovan. The Macedonian community was stupefied, why was all of this happening now, at a time of great Orthodox renewal the Macedonian Orthodox Church? Yet, for the Holy Synod of the Macedonian Orthodox Church, it was apparent that Zoran Vranishkovski began the project to establish a Serbian sanctioned Archbishphoric in Macedonia not to promote universal orthodoxy, rather to create the image of church disunity, to be presented as such to the international and Greater Orthodox Community. Macedonian Bishop Peter, Metropolitan of the Australian/New Zealand Eparchy, best encapsulated this belief for the “Daily,” Dnevnik,

It is obvious that the Holy Synod of the SOC wants to create a false perception and picture for the international community and the church public that the Macedonian people and the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia have accepted to change the name of the MOC into the “Orthodox Archbishphoric of Ohrid,” which would serve as an analogy to changing our national name, ethnicity, language, culture, and everything that is Macedonian. Mind you, the SOC decided to do this while we are trying to settle our name issue with Greece in the United Nations…” [ii]

Truthfully, one would really have to be unmindful of Macedonian Orthodox Church history in order not comprehend that any attempt to establish a parallel Archbishphoric in Macedonia would be viewed as nothing less than an attack on the very sovereignty of the Republic of Macedonia. However, to holistically fault the Serbian people and Serbian Orthodox Church of this nationalistic move would not be fair. Metropolitan Naum of the Strumica Eparchy sustained this for a TV-A1 interview,

“The problems between the Serbian and Macedonian Orthodox Churches have been endorsed by ten Bishops, a few of which are not even Serbian, in the Serbian Church who have adequately and clearly stated that they do not recognize our nation, let alone our church.”  [iii]

Nonetheless, when it was clear that efforts to establish the new Archbishphoric in Macedonia were unsuccessful, the Serbian Orthodox Holy Synod, apparently deciding to discipline the Macedonian parish, took it a step further and issued a TOMOS, publicly recognizing the “Orthodox Archbishphoric of Ohrid” as the only canonically legal church in the Macedonia. The official Serbian Holy Synod declaration, for all intents and purposes, proposed to excommunicate the approximately 1.8 million Orthodox Macedonians; clear indication that Serbian Bishops have relinquished their pastoral ideals.

Still however, early indications demonstrate that the TOMOS has drawn little regional orthodox support. In a recent statement, the Patriarchic of the Russian Orthodox Church, Alexy II, came out against the move taken by the Serbian Orthodox Church. It was only a few weeks before the TOMOS that the ROC had sent a representative to the Republic of Macedonia to strengthen Russian and Macedonian Orthodox ties with the announcement that the Moscow Patriarchic Chorus would be performing in Macedonia, bringing with them a written letter of support from Patriarch Alexey II. The official representative from Moscow gave this statement in light of the then rumored Serbian Orthodox TOMOS,

“For us, it isn’t right for the Orthodox Macedonians to be excluded from the Orthodox Community.”  [iv]

Needless to say, the Serbian Orthodox Holy Synod disregarded this message and gave Zoran Vranishkovski his TOMOS anyway.

Additionally, since the Serbian Church decision, there have been rehabilitated attempts to portray Vranishkovski as the Martin Luther King Jr. of the Serbian minority in the Republic of Macedonia. But, media reports on the aftermath of the TOMOS have been irresolute. To add to the confusion, a few sources have detailed that the reasoning behind the proposed TOMOS was a castigatory measure against the Macedonian Orthodox Church, who they claim, had dishonored Orthodox Church Canons. Of course, Macedonian Bishops and theologians have made the same claims against their Serbian brethren. Most reports, however, continue to reveal the re-exposed, nationalistic vibe in the Serbian Orthodox Church with anecdotes that the Macedonian Orthodox Church, along with the powers that be, has denied Serbian minorities the right to attend the church of their choice. Yet, these accusations were dispelled by a fresh Reality Macedonia account given by the leader of the Serbian Macedonian community in Veles, who make up part of the Macedonian Orthodox Povardarski Eparchy,

“We thank Vranishkovski and his archbishopric for their wish to represent us, but we refuse their services. The decision to create a new church only managed to cause dissatisfaction among the local Serbs, because it endangered their good relations with their friends, relatives and neighbors." [v]

Making it abundantly clear that, with the TOMOS, the Serbian Holy Synod have not only proposed to excommunicate Macedonians, but the Serbian Minority in Macedonia from Orthodoxy.

As we continue to wonder if the latest declarations by the Holy Synod of the Serbian Orthodox Church will spell disaster for our Church in the Balkans, the best we can do is pray and heed the advice of our spiritual fathers. In a dialogue published on the official Website of the Macedonian Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Naum stated,

“Regarding the use of the name Macedonian Orthodox Church… primary condition for every Local Church in its apostolic mission, that is, the preaching of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ to every man, is respect of personal identity (by this of the national, too) of every actual person that we address. Missing the personal identity of the one whom we address, regardless of the reasons for it, means inevitable failure of the church mission and negation of us as pastors. Pastoral ideal, for all of us, is the attitude of the Holy Apostle Paul” [vi]

We pray that love will reign over irrational behavior, and that respect and integrity prevail in the minds of those who have yet to accept the Macedonian Orthodox Church — Archbishphoric of Ohrid into their family. Listening to Father Naum, let us observe the words of St. Paul:

“And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews…to the weak became as I weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men that I may save some.”  [vii]


 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
  http://www.mpc.org.mk/vest.asp?id=825

[ii] www.dnevnik.com.mk/?pBroj=2776&stID=56353

[iii] http://a1.com.mk/vesti/vest.asp?VestID=46652

[iv] www.mpc.org.mk/vest.asp?id=797

[v]  www.realitymacedonia.org.mk/

[vi] www.mpc.org.mk/English/news2.asp?id=223

[vii] 1 Corinthians 9:20, 22

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« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2005, 01:45:23 PM »

Macedonia74,

Thanks for the longwinded cut and paste job that cites only from "Macedonian" sources (save the last quote).

I'm going to be honest with you about something I'm seeing from many of your countrymen.  They act EXACTLY in the same spirit as Islamic Imams.  Here is how it works...

Muslims committ terrible terrorist acts and instead of speaking out against the terrorism, the Imams condemn the "racist" reaction against Muslims in the west.  No mention of the mass murder, oh but us westerner racisits... what a bunch we are!

Similarly *many* Macedonians kick and scream "Serbs this" and "Greeks that", but THEY NEVER want to talk about destroying ORTHODOX CHURCHES, brutalizing ORTHODOX CLERGY, imprisoning ORTHODOX CLERGY.  Nope, lets be like the Imams, just put our hands over our ears and start humming "I can't hear you, I can't hear you"!!!
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« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2005, 02:53:59 PM »

macedonia74, you're missing the entire point, you dont get to declare yourselves autocephalous no matter how much you want it. You are, like it or not, under the Jurisdiction of His Holiness the Patriarch of Serbia; any 'macedonian' who defies the Synod of Serbia and submits himself to the pseudo-bishops of the so-called 'macedonian orthodox church,' willingly schisms against the Orthodox Church. Furthermore, this is not a 'macedonian' and Serbian/Greek issue, but EVERY Orthodox Church is in agreement on this Issue, it is unanimous.

As if schisming and tearing asunder the Body of Christ is not enough, the so-called 'macedonian' people have decided to persecute the legitimate Bishops of the Holy Church. How do you expect the Orthodox Peoples of the World to view the persecutors of our Bishops as even Christian, to say nothing of Orthodox?
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« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2005, 03:01:39 PM »

Quote
The Macedonian Orthodox Church — Archbishphoric of Ohrid is the historical continuation of the ancient, autocephalous Archbishphoric of Ohrid. Re-established in 1959, under the blessing of the Serbian Orthodox Holy Synod, the renewed MOC was concelebrated by a joint Liturgy with the Serbian Patriarch German. As an affirmation of support for Macedonian ecclesiastical independence, the Serbian Holy Synod gave this declaration, “the recently inducted Bishops and Eparches in the Republic of Macedonian, of the Macedonian Orthodox Church, are no longer obliged to abide by the constitution of the Serbian Orthodox Church.”

every other Orthodox Church did what the Macedonian Orthodox Church did in order to come to their independence. This is exactly how St. Sava responded in 1219, unilaterally declaring the Archbishphoric of Pec separate from the Archbishphoric of Ohrid. Let us not forget the other Churches, as soon as they gained their own nation, they instantly formed their own independent church, including the Archbishphoric in Athens when they left Constantinople, along with the Bulgarian, etc. These measures are supported by church laws, in the 17th rule from the IV Ecumenical Council clearly states that, along with Church Laity, one of the prerequisites for having an independent church is having your own sovereign nation.

Because of these reasons, with decades having past, we have continued our dialogue with the SOC in order to overcome our differences. However, to be clearly honest, we never once talked about church matters or obstacles, we never once talked about dogma, teachings, or our faith, what we did talk about, unfortunately, was: Should we (Macedonia) as a nation, have our own Church, and can the renewed Archbishphoric of Ohrid be considered the Macedonian Orthodox Church! Which means, my brothers and sisters in Christ, that our only sin is our name!


His Beatitude, Arichbishop Stefan
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« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2005, 03:06:12 PM »

I must tell you, I'm chuckling right now, because I was about to post (right after GiC) that he would not get a response, but rather a quote.... and then low and behold.... whammo, I was right.

By golly, whattya know!.
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« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2005, 03:09:28 PM »

But I ask myself, what is worse, "Unilaterally, declaring Autocephaly," or the heresy of Ecclesiastical politics and warfare, WCC and Ecumenism, disregard for Holy Tradition regarding the Julian Calander, and  heretical teachings in  our "Canonical" seminaries:

Quote
Although the Church insists that Mary remains forever a virgin, the only miracle in regard to the Lord's birth is the virginal conception There is no teaching of any other sort of miracle in regard to His birth; certainly no idea that he came forth from His mother without opening her womb. Winter Pascha, by Thomas Hopko, St. Vladimir 's Seminary Press, p. 1 75

Would it be than a "devout" Orthodox Christian like yourself, be promoting personal opinion over that of our Holy Fathers? Wow, and I'm the heretic....
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« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2005, 03:12:18 PM »

In March 1945, the Communist Party of Yugoslavia, so as to limit the influence of the Serbian Orthodox Church decided to create a separate administration in the newly-created People's Republic of Macedonia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Orthodox_Church

(since we're playing the quoting game).
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« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2005, 03:30:21 PM »

But I ask myself, what is worse, "Unilaterally, declaring Autocephaly," or the heresy of Ecclesiastical politics and warfare, WCC and Ecumenism, disregard for Holy Tradition regarding the Julian Calander, andÂÂ  heretical teachings inÂÂ  our "Canonical" seminaries:

Quote
Although the Church insists that Mary remains forever a virgin, the only miracle in regard to the Lord's birth is the virginal conception. There is no teaching of any other sort of miracle in regard to His birth; certainly no idea that he came forth from His mother without opening her womb.
-The Winter Pascha, by Thomas Hopko, St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, p. 1 75

Would it be than a "devout" Orthodox Christian like yourself, be promoting personal opinion over that of our Holy Fathers? Wow, and I'm the heretic....

Well, then.  If Protopresbyter (I noticed you left off his title) Thomas Hopko is in error, you shouldn't have any problem producing an authoritative teaching (not a theologumen) from several universal recognized Fathers, attested in hymns of the Church, proving that the former dean of St. Vladimir's is wrong on this.

-Philip.
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« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2005, 04:52:57 PM »

But I ask myself, what is worse, "Unilaterally, declaring Autocephaly," or the heresy of Ecclesiastical politics and warfare,

I must have missed the council that forbade politics (mind you, it would, by it's very nature, be a self-invalidating council...lol_

Quote
WCC and Ecumenism, disregard for Holy Tradition regarding the Julian Calander,

These have been discussed in length, but I fear I fail to see the heresy, you're going to have to be more precise.

Quote
andÂÂ  heretical teachings inÂÂ  our "Canonical" seminaries:

Although the Church insists that Mary remains forever a virgin, the only miracle in regard to the Lord's birth is the virginal conception. There is no teaching of any other sort of miracle in regard to His birth; certainly no idea that he came forth from His mother without opening her womb.
-The Winter Pascha, by Thomas Hopko, St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, p. 175

Am I supposed to see some heresy in this statement or was it just thrown in at random because you couldn't post without throwing in a quote somewhere?

Since you all seem to like quotes so much, I think I'll answer your question with a few I've come accross:

'Such a schism is already in all things like unto heresy, and one must treat such schismatics as one would heretics, not permitting any communion with them.' -- St. Basil the Great

'Therefore I assert and protest, that to make a schism in the Church is no less an evil than to fall into heresy. Tell me, suppose a subject of some king, though he did not join himself to another king, nor give himself to any other, yet should take and keep hold of his king’s royal purple, and should tear it all from its clasp, and rend it into many shreds; would he suffer less punishment than those who join themselves to the service of another? And what, if withal he were to seize the king himself by the throat and slay him, and tear his body limb from limb, what punishment could he undergo, that should be equal to his deserts? Now if in doing this toward a king, his fellow-servant, he would be committing an act too great for any punishment to reach; of what hell shall not he be worthy who slays Christ, and plucks Him limb from limb? of that one which is threatened? No, I think not, but of another far more dreadful.' -- St. John Chrysostom

'We call heretics those who have of old been proscribed from the Church, and those who have thereafter been anathematized by us; and in addition to these those who, though pretending to confess the sound faith, have schismatically separated and have gathered congregations in opposition to our canonical Bishops.' -- Second Oecumenical Synod 6

'If anyone conducts a church of his own apart from the Church, and, scorning the Church, wishes to perform the functions of the Church, without a presbyter’s helping with the approval and consent of a bishop, let him be anathema.' -- Gangra 6

'The rules laid down with reference to Presbyters and Bishops and Metro­politans are still more applicable to Patriarchs. So that in case any Presbyter or Bishop or Metropolitan dares to secede or apostatize from the communion of his own Patriarch, and fails to mention the latter’s name in accordance with custom duly fixed and ordained, in the divine Mystagogy, but, before a conciliar verdict has been pronounced and has passed judgment against him, creates a schism, the holy Council has decreed that this person shall be held an alien to every priestly function if only he be convicted of having committed this trans­gression of the law. Accordingly, these rules have been sealed and ordained as respecting those persons who under the pretext of charges against their own presidents stand aloof, and create a schism, and disrupt the union of the Church.' -- First-Second 15

If I need to go on, I can, but I think you get the picture.
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« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2005, 09:46:59 PM »

Quote
I must have missed the council that forbade politics (mind you, it would, by its very nature, be a self-invalidating council.

Then, Church meddling in government, and vice-versa is ok? How about Church meddling in the sovereignty of nations? But then again, by some interpretations it is actually ok for Churches to supersede international borders…how convenient for the Serbian Orthodox Church. This really compliments their territorial aspirations, at least in the Ecclesiastical sense. But then again, Church, Government, Politics, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, what’s the difference. It’s all one big, bean burrito, right?

Quote
These have been discussed in length, but I fear I fail to see the heresy; you're going to have to be more precise

So, then you believe the “Truth and the Faith are not one, and you desire to abandon the teaching that our Savior is the unique revelation of the Truth and that His Holy Church is the unique depository of that Truth”? (Sorry about the quote, I never claimed to be astute, I do take my faith very seriously though, I have a hard time when someone tells me what I do and do not believe. Unless you're clairvoyant, then you actually do know  Wink

However, everytime I attempt to talk about the MOC with anyone in the "in crowd" all I get is laws, councils, laws, and some more councils, not to mentioned the fact that I'm swarmed, by the wolves we would call "Universal Orthodoxy." Let me tell you, this does wonders for Orthodox Evangelism. And let me say, the more and more research I do, the more I find instances where other "unrecognized" Orthodox Churches use these same laws, canons and councils, to attack the Churches who supposedly followed the above mentioned to the T. It's really rather disconcerting to be honest. And once again, I'm not very astute, but what was it Our Lord and Savior told the Scribes about following Laws to the detriment of Mercy and Love? 

But since this seems to be the only language you guys understand, let me try to play along:

You claim ecumenism is not a heresy unless fated by a General or Universal Council of the Orthodox Church? Where does the Scriptures, the Fathers or the Ecumenical Council qualify this?

Thus with your "universal" thinking, chiliasm or millennialism isn’t heresy? Which Ecumenical Council condemned them?  Which Ecumenical Council rejected Roman Catholicism or the multitude of Protestant sects as heresies?

I really enjoyed your quotes, but they may or may not have anything to do with the Macedonian Orthodox Church situation. Wow, especially, let him be anathema.' -- Gangra 6. Anathema, what a strong word: to be separated from the Church of Christ and the Assembly of the Faithful. I guess this goes out to all of us who refuse the "see the light?"

You actually believe that the MOC is separated from the Church of Christ and the Assembly of Faithful? Some would say that since His Beatitude, Dositej was consecrated by the Serbian Patriarch, and since the MOC has been celebrating and concelebrating Divine Liturgy and the Holy Sacraments, that they are still part of the Church of Christ and the Assembly of Faithful -- Since we’re not really doing anything “our own way” rather the “Orthodox Way” (some would even claim, more “Orthodox” than many of those in Holy Communion with the Ecumenical Throne) But hey, who I am, right?

Even others would also claim that since the Archbishphoric of Ohrid was illegally dismantled by Constantinople in 1767, yet still continued to produce Macedonian faithful (and still does to this day),  then BOUGHT with money by Belgrade (very canonical) for the SOC. But hey, this stuff does not matter, it’s all about how YOU use the Ecumenical Councils! But if we in the MOC quote the EC’s then not even the 17th Rule of the 4th Orthodox Ecumenical Council and the 38th Rule of the 6th Ecumenical Council means anything. 

You know there are plenty out there who claim the same thing about the SOC, GOC, ROC that you claim about the MOC, because they are part of the WCC and Ecumenism.

Forgive my sarcasm. I've read other “heretics” have been slapped for less.



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« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2005, 10:24:41 PM »

Was there a point in all of that rambling?

Wait, maybe the point is that all of Orthodoxy is wrong and Bishop Nahum from the MPC is correct.  Well all be...

I see that you joined here a few weeks ago and that you kept a pretty low profile until you used this thread to promote Macedonian propoganda.  Is there a point to all of this?  Many here are seminarians, theologians or well read devout Orthodox Christians.  Did you think you'd find a sympathetic ear to this type of nonsensical propoganda?

I'm sure I speak for many when I say, "if you've come here for honest discussion, then welcome, but if you've come to spread lies and hate, can't you do that elsewhere?"

I said this to another Macedonian on another thread... why not acknowledge the terrible things that the government of Macedonia has done to Orthodox Churches and Orthodox Clergy?  Why not condemn the words of heretical clergy that advocate for the destruction of Orthodox places of worship?  Why not stand up for the Orthodox Church?  Why are you so hate filled?
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« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2005, 10:31:37 PM »

Northern Macedonian is Neo Canmak...

That much is enough.

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« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2005, 10:39:19 PM »

Quote
I see that you joined here a few weeks ago and that you kept a pretty low profile until you used this thread to promote Macedonian propoganda.ÂÂ  Is there a point to all of this?ÂÂ  Many here are seminarians, theologians or well read devout Orthodox Christians.ÂÂ  Did you think you'd find a sympathetic ear to this type of nonsensical propoganda?

I'm sure I speak for many when I say, "if you've come here for honest discussion, then welcome, but if you've come to spread lies and hate, can't you do that elsewhere?"

I said this to another Macedonian on another thread... why not acknowledge the terrible things that the government of Macedonia has done to Orthodox Churches and Orthodox Clergy?ÂÂ  Why not condemn the words of heretical clergy that advocate for the destruction of Orthodox places of worship?ÂÂ  Why not stand up for the Orthodox Church?ÂÂ  Why are you so hate filled?

Where do I begin? I used this thread to promote Macedonian propoganda? I think I was only trying to present another side of the story, one that isn't always presented. Like I said, I'm not astute, however, I've read enough to know that one doesn't have to be a "Seminarian" or a "theologian" to take part in Orthodoxy. I believe I've read somewhere that it is possible to take part of the Holy Mysteries of our Church and not even understand the Liturgy. And no, actually, I wasn't counting on any sympathy.

Spreading lies? Acknowledge the terrible things that the government of Macedonia has done to Orthodoxy and the Churches, why, for jailing a man who embezzled money from the Veles Diocese? And to be truthful here, the "Man" wasn't touched by the Government, but rather the independent courts of Macedonia.

You support a man, who has a handful of faithful, who has been rejected by Macedonian Serbians, who has spit in the face of 3 million Orthodox Macedonians, you support the SOC, a Church that condones the destruction of a 3 million strong Orthodox assembly and her Churches, and I'm the one trying to destroy Orthodoxy?

The irony is astounding!

An even better question, why don't you just recognize the MOC by her God-given name, and promote her autocepahly, since this is protected by the Canons?

"NorthernMacedonia is Neo Canmak" ?? Judge not lest you be judged...

I apologize if I have offened anyone.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2005, 10:51:09 PM by macedonia74 » Logged

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« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2005, 10:52:48 PM »

No, you are mistaken my friend.

"MOC" is schismatics, and that is the end of that.

It is not Serbs that destroy Churches it is so called Macedonian orthodox.
It is not Serbs that are in schism it is so called Macedonian Orthodox.
It is not Serbs that in-prisoning Orthodox Bishops it is so called Macedonian Orthodox.
It is not Serbs barking against so called Macedonian Orthodox, it is them barking against Serbs.

So, whatever you might say, there is a good reason why no-one here presents "your side of story". It is because it is a schismatic side of story. It is the heresy of heresies. "Macedonians Orthodox" are the heretics of heretics and they are neither Macedonian nor Orthodox.

If that means that 3 milion of those are all schismatics then they are. Numbers don't mean anything. I doubt that every Slav in FYROM is a schismatic, but if it is judging by this forum, and what I can see in Peth, Australia, then many are.

There is nothing to talk about until you change your attitude.

It is very weird how people tend to say that Serbs have some territorial aspirations towards Macedonia. So wrong. But anyhow, "as Serbia has territorial aspirations" we will torch Church and inprison Bishops. Great going "Macedonians", making friends everywhere. As my dear friend and brother SS99 said in one of the posts, and I WONDER ALSO, who is worse, Albanian Moslems or "Macedonian Orthodox"?! So sad...

For all those who do not know, this is how it was always been, schismatics imprisoning Bishops for their nationalistic hate of everything other than their own.



So, my dear neo Canmak, you can take you propaganda some place else, because here (as far am I am concerned), is really not welcome.



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« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2005, 11:04:38 PM »

Then, Church meddling in government, and vice-versa is ok? How about Church meddling in the sovereignty of nations?

Umm, yeah, that's how it's been ever since St. Constantine the Great converted to Christianity; you cant exactly get around that pretty universal fact. Plus, dont tell me the 'MOC' has this strong belief in the separation of Church and State, your so-called synod is hardly protesting in the streets against the Persecution of Archbishop Jovan of Ochrid.

Quote
But then again, by some interpretations it is actually ok for Churches to supersede international borders…how convenient for the Serbian Orthodox Church. This really compliments their territorial aspirations, at least in the Ecclesiastical sense.

YES, BY ALL MEANS YES, Of course it is ok for Churches to supersede international borders, it should supersede international borders, for the Church Transcends international borders. That is what the entire phyletism controversy was about, phyletism was the dividing of the Church along ethnic lines, EXACTLY what you are advocating. The Patriarch of Serbia is a Christian Patriarch, and there is Absolutely no reason whatsoever that that his authority or rights over macedonia should be questioned.

Quote
So, then you believe the “Truth and the Faith are not one, and you desire to abandon the teaching that our Savior is the unique revelation of the Truth and that His Holy Church is the unique depository of that Truth”? (Sorry about the quote, I never claimed to be astute, I do take my faith very seriously though, I have a hard time when someone tells me what I do and do not believe. Unless you're clairvoyant, then you actually do knowÂÂ  Wink

I recognize that truth and grace, though only existing in their fullness in the Orthodox Church, exist to one degree or another in all faiths and philosophies of men. But the belief that God is 'Everywhere present and fillest all things' is hardly a new belief.

Quote
However, everytime I attempt to talk about the MOC with anyone in the "in crowd" all I get is laws, councils, laws, and some more councils, not to mentioned the fact that I'm swarmed, by the wolves we would call "Universal Orthodoxy." Let me tell you, this does wonders for Orthodox Evangelism. And let me say, the more and more research I do, the more I find instances where other "unrecognized" Orthodox Churches use these same laws, canons and councils, to attack the Churches who supposedly followed the above mentioned to the T. It's really rather disconcerting to be honest. And once again, I'm not very astute, but what was it Our Lord and Savior told the Scribes about following Laws to the detriment of Mercy and Love?ÂÂ  

I fear my expertise is in the Holy Canons, so if you debate with me, there's a good chance you'll get a few Canons quoted. And condemnations of Schism are hardly legalistic, they are at the very basis of what it means to be Orthodox. The Communion of the Church is at least as important as, if not more important than, our sacred Dogmas; one gains no benifit by holding on to Orthodox Theology and maintaining Orthodox Praxis while being separated from the Body of Christ, rather these beliefs would be to their detriment as separating themselves from the church despite knowing better.

And as far as being 'swarmed' goes, if you have been following this board even a little bit you should noticed that I am regularly 'swarmed' far more severely than you are being on this thread; just take a look at the Eastern Catholic vs. Western Orthodox thread as an active example.

Quote
You claim ecumenism is not a heresy unless fated by a General or Universal Council of the Orthodox Church? Where does the Scriptures, the Fathers or the Ecumenical Council qualify this?

Ecumenism is about dialogue. How is talking in dialogue with the Latins somehow an acceptance of heterodox doctrines? I have never got how people could mere discussion as heretical.

Quote
Thus with your "universal" thinking, chiliasm or millennialism isn’t heresy? Which Ecumenical Council condemned them?ÂÂ  Which Ecumenical Council rejected Roman Catholicism or the multitude of Protestant sects as heresies?

I dont believe we have a formal doctrine dealing with eschatological issues you presented, but they are inconsonant with our Tradition; however, it would require a Synod to actually anathematize someone for them. Concerning Latin and Protestant heresies, we have many Endimousa Synods which condemned them.

Quote
I really enjoyed your quotes, but they may or may not have anything to do with the Macedonian Orthodox Church situation. Wow, especially, let him be anathema.' -- Gangra 6. Anathema, what a strong word: to be separated from the Church of Christ and the Assembly of the Faithful. I guess this goes out to all of us who refuse the "see the light?"

Yes, anathema is an extremly strong word; and the use of that word demonstrated how seriously the fathers of the Church took Schism, it was equated with heresy and punished with equal severity.

Quote
You actually believe that the MOC is separated from the Church of Christ and the Assembly of Faithful? Some would say that since His Beatitude, Dositej was consecrated by the Serbian Patriarch, and since the MOC has been celebrating and concelebrating Divine Liturgy and the Holy Sacraments, that they are still part of the Church of Christ and the Assembly of Faithful -- Since we’re not really doing anything “our own way” rather the “Orthodox Way” (some would even claim, more “Orthodox” than many of those in Holy Communion with the Ecumenical Throne) But hey, who I am, right?

I dont care who consecrated who, as Canon 15 of the First-Second Synod (Constantinople 861 under St. Photios) states, if one schisms against their Patriarch, they are to be deposed. Thus 'Archbishop' Dositej is not a Bishop in the Orthodox Church, he is deposed, and a pretender to the throne of Archbishop Jovan of Ochrid. And all who commemorate or celebrate with a deposed bishop or presbyter are to be excommunicated (or anathematized, depending on the canon).

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Even others would also claim that since the Archbishphoric of Ohrid was illegally dismantled by Constantinople in 1767, yet still continued to produce Macedonian faithful (and still does to this day),ÂÂ  then BOUGHT with money by Belgrade (very canonical) for the SOC. But hey, this stuff does not matter, it’s all about how YOU use the Ecumenical Councils! But if we in the MOC quote the EC’s then not even the 17th Rule of the 4th Orthodox Ecumenical Council and the 38th Rule of the 6th Ecumenical Council means anything.ÂÂ  

I have defended elsewhere the Rights of Constantinople; it has long been a basic element of our canonical tradition that he who is the Source of authority has the right to withdraw it.

Quote
You know there are plenty out there who claim the same thing about the SOC, GOC, ROC that you claim about the MOC, because they are part of the WCC and Ecumenism.

There are a few out there who will claim this, but like the 'MOC' they are in Schism and out of Communion with the Orthodox Church. However, they have not compounded these errors by going to the next step and actually persecuting our Bishops.

Quote
Forgive my sarcasm. I've read other “heretics” have been slapped for less.

No need to apologize, as long as you make a point of putting content into your posts, I'm not too concerned about your 'tone.'
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« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2005, 11:53:44 PM »

I just do not know.

I think that is way to easy to condemn everybody for the sake of what we think it is right.

I do not have any doubt, that in this instance, "MOC" is in a wrong position.

But it hurts me (myself, personally) to come to a situation in which I am to say something that will prejudice anyone else. I do not think that I am in any shape of form in a situation to judge anyone or anyone's ideas, regardless how unorthodox they really might be. I am far from being a person that should be proud of being Orthodox. For, being given such a light I still tend to hold dear my ego over the will of the God by holding same sinning course that I am on. So, I am sorry that I judged anyone and everyone.

Macedonia 74 (Northern Macedonian), please forgive for me shouting at you in what was a such a rude manner. It does not matter how one can be right and how other can be wrong, it is the way that we communicate that will present what we stand for.

I can not agree with anything that "MOC" does, but at the same time, I am not worthy to judge anything.

I am sorry.

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« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2005, 12:22:29 AM »

I would like to thank you both greekischristian, and sir vladimirov for your words. I have actually learned a lot. I ask that you both try to understand that even the "dogs eat from the crumbs that fall from their maters' table."

Also, please do not take my posts as a sign of attack, rather, consider my words in the form of the question: "Do you love me?"

My honest apologies to my brothers and sisters.

Glory to Christ.
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« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2005, 05:47:13 AM »

It was only a mattter of time before Macedonia made an error of judgement which would cost them any credibility they may have had left in the eyes of the world.

Have a read of this while I do my little "told ya so" dance: http://www.persecution.org/newsite/countrynews.php?newscode=1118
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« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2005, 08:39:26 AM »

Have a read of this while I do my little "told ya so" dance: http://www.persecution.org/newsite/countrynews.php?newscode=1118

Ozgeorge,

I just read those stories and I have the sickest feeling in the pit of my stomach.  Particularly troubling was this quote:

"The archbishop was not permitted to take his prayer book, the Gospels, an icon or any of the insignia of his rank with him".

How cruel.  I repeat (and no offense intended towards Macedonia74/NorthernMacedonian), but this puts the authorities in Macedonia at the same level as Albanian Muslims.  I am thoroughly disgusted.  How very sad.

Also interesting is that (although I'm not familiar with the site), it doesn't appear to be a "Serbian" or "Greek" site, as we are often so accused.

GiC,

Thank you for the very informative post.

S-V,

Brother, thank you for your humility (and teaching me some).  Unfortunately, I do not have your strength and control when it comes to this topic, because I think the "two sides" approach to this topic is about as genuine as multi-ethnic, religiously tolerant, ruled by Albanians Kosovo.  I need to reconsider my approach.

M74,

I don't believe you are that "other" Macedonian, otherwise you would have placed curses on all of us by now. lol.  Wink

I can only tell you that I think you are way off base.  I don't think this is even a close one and I think you misstate a lot of facts. 

I have read Nis many times and I don't think it stands for anything that you claim.  I posted the agreement on these boards many months ago, I'm sure you can find it, read it and we can discuss it rationally.  Furthermore, I think your claim that "Serbia has territorial aspirations on Macedonia" is unjustified. 

I have never met a Serb, (until the recent past), that ever thought of Macedonians as anything but a "younger sibling".  Someone who we would always be willing to help.  Both "Orthodox" and both "Slavs".  A common history and a common struggle against Islam.

It has only been over the last couple of years that this has changed, as your government and people have become more militant.  By turning your backs on your Orthodox brethern to the North, you've been forced to accept Islamic Albanians as equal partners in your country.

The Albanian flag proudly flies over your largest city in the North (Tetovo).  Albanian education is now guaranteed and given the Islamic birth rates, how long before all of Macedonia becomes Kosovo?  When His Holiness Pavle extended the warm hand of friendship to the MPC, it was quickly slapped by the "Bishops" who were being controlled by the "democratic" government Macedonia.

What is the future for your country without the Church and without good relations with Serbs, Greeks and Bulgars?

Did Nis not guarantee that the MPC would appoint her own Bishops? Did Nis not guarantee she could "use her name, as it has been used thus far"?

So, I apologize to you, if I've offended you, that was certainly not my intent.  However, I cannot and will not ever agree with what you are arguing here.  You are advocating on the side of those in schism.  Those who have jailed an Orthodox Archbishop.  Those who have destroyed Orthodox Churches.  Those who have brutalized Orthodox Clergy and those who have denied Orthodox Clergy the Gospels and Holy Icons.
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« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2005, 03:34:41 PM »

Glory to Christ my brothers and sisters.

I wasn't expecting to post again, but I feel compelled to provide answers to some questions indirectly posed to my standing on this forum. Once again, I apologize to anyone who may feel attacked or scorned. This is not my intention:

Quote
The archbishop was not permitted to take his prayer book, the Gospels, an icon or any of the insignia of his rank with him".

Zoran Vranishkovski was taken to prison empty handed, yes. However, there are reports his prison guards understand that this is a special case and that they would not treat him just as any prisoner. He will be provided everything he asks for and more. Needless to say, this report is very sensationalized. And reports have stated that Vranishkovski will be preparing his doctorate in his cell.

Quote
I have read Nis many times and I don't think it stands for anything that you claim.ÂÂ  I posted the agreement on these boards many months ago, I'm sure you can find it, read it and we can discuss it rationally.ÂÂ  Furthermore, I think your claim that "Serbia has territorial aspirations on Macedonia" is unjustified.

Quote
Did Nis not guarantee that the MPC would appoint her own Bishops? Did Nis not guarantee she could "use her name, as it has been used thus far"?
This is the truth about the Nis “working agreement.”

http://www.mpc.org.mk/vest.asp?id=395

In English: http://www.mpc.org.mk/English/news2.asp?id=395

I’m not prepared to call Metropolitan Naum a liar, are you?

Quote
I have never met a Serb, (until the recent past), that ever thought of Macedonians as anything but a "younger sibling".ÂÂ  Someone who we would always be willing to help.ÂÂ  Both "Orthodox" and both "Slavs".ÂÂ  A common history and a common struggle against Islam.

And you don’t see a problem with this Serb mentality? Macedonians are not anyone’s “younger siblings.” We are our own people, with our own specific, heritage, history, church, language, people and our problems are not that of the Serbs, we have our own specific problems. The sooner this is understood, the sooner all our disagreements will vanquish. However, this is not to say that we don't have things in common with our Serbian brothers, or our Bulgaria, Greek, and even Albanian friends.

Our common struggle with Islam? From what I've read, our common struggle is with ourselves, withing, in an ascetic nature. From what I've been taught, it is our duty to prepare ourselves for salvation by attending Liturgy, taking part of the Holy Sacraments, fasting, praying, etc. We do have a struggle with the Truth and Faith, which are one, to spread the Word of Our Savior. I believe this would be the only way we would be able to help those who follow Islam. In otherwords, we are to convert, not kill (for all extensive purposes)---This is why our Bishops don't bless the guns of our military as to go off to battle with the "Islamists." Why kill someone who could very well become Orthodox one day, especially if you live under one roof? But then again, I have no idea what my Brothers and Sisters have gone through in Kosovo or in Bosnia, nor do I accept or condone the actions of ethnic Albanians. However, I know and believe that Our Lord will take care of His work so that we do not need to think of revenge on earth.

Quote
It has only been over the last couple of years that this has changed, as your government and people have become more militant.ÂÂ  By turning your backs on your Orthodox brethern to the North, you've been forced to accept Islamic Albanians as equal partners in your country.


Quote
The Albanian flag proudly flies over your largest city in the North (Tetovo).ÂÂ  Albanian education is now guaranteed and given the Islamic birth rates, how long before all of Macedonia becomes Kosovo?ÂÂ  When His Holiness Pavle extended the warm hand of friendship to the MPC, it was quickly slapped by the "Bishops" who were being controlled by the "democratic" government Macedonia.

The fact that Albanian flags fly over Tetovo and all the other municipalities where Albanians make up a 50% majority has nothing to do with the Church situation, but it has everything to do with incapable politicians, Western Imperialism, and Balkan criminality. Not to mention if we were as militant as you say we are, perhaps the flags wouldn’t be flying, or perhaps thousands would have died. I mean, I always get lost in these conversations, are we supposed to loose our Orthodox Christian morals in order to play loyal to the Serbians and “universal Orthodoxy”? I'm not even going to comment on your assertions regarding Ecclesiastical politics in Macedonia, the irony in this is just too great.

Quote
What is the future for your country without the Church and without good relations with Serbs, Greeks and Bulgars?

Our relations with these nations are good, more so economically than culturally. There are some outstanding issues, a fact that all of my supposed “Slav brethren” with their conditional love, seem to overlook: Greece says we don’t have a name, Bulgaria says we don’t have a language and people, and Serbia says we don’t have a Church and people.

My apologies to everyone, but I'm supposed to be happy about this and jump at the thought about being in "communion" with this? Until my “Slav brethren” look me in the eye, with dignity, call me by my name, recognize my heritage, culture, language, and church, I have no obligation to be loyal to them.

However, I will always continue to love them, and I will always long to be part the universal Church community.
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« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2005, 04:03:57 PM »

I wasn't expecting to post again, but I feel compelled to provide answers to some questions indirectly posed to my standing on this forum. Once again, I apologize to anyone who may feel attacked or scorned. This is not my intention:

It seems Macedonians don't last too long here.ÂÂ  I think its a combination of not liking what they hear and not liking being attacked.ÂÂ  In the case of the latter, I apologize.

Quote
Zoran Vranishkovski was taken to prison empty handed, yes. However, there are reports his prison guards understand that this is a special case and that they would not treat him just as any prisoner. He will be provided everything he asks for and more. Needless to say, this report is very sensationalized. And reports have stated that Vranishkovski will be preparing his doctorate in his cell.

Is this how you to refer to an Archbishop of an Orthodox Church?ÂÂ  I would have to ask Anastasios, but I'm sure there is some board rule against this.ÂÂ  I noticed you did this with an OCA priest as well.

Quote
This is the truth about the Nis “working agreement.”

http://www.mpc.org.mk/vest.asp?id=395

In English: http://www.mpc.org.mk/English/news2.asp?id=395

I’m not prepared to call Metropolitan Naum a liar, are you?

Well, first off, I'm prepared to call him Metropolitan, although I'm not entirely sure he is worthy of the title.ÂÂ  Second, yes, I do believe he is a liar.ÂÂ  I'll take the word of Archimandrite George, who says Metropolitan Nahum is a liar.

Also, I don't need the propoganda laden nonsense that is peddled from your MPC websites.ÂÂ  Get real.ÂÂ  Like I said before, I posted Nis on a thread months ago.ÂÂ  Lets look at it.

Quote
And you don’t see a problem with this Serb mentality? Macedonians are not anyone’s “younger siblings.”


Of course you can't understand this mentality because you are blinded by nationalism.ÂÂ  The "younger sibling" analogy was used to convey love.ÂÂ  His Holiness, my beloved Patriarch Pavle has done so much and bent in so many directions to accomodate the MPC.ÂÂ  Like and older brother to a younger brother, Patriarch Pavle has shown Macedonians love and has repeatedly tried educate your clergy in the hopes that they would come back in communion.

Quote
Our common struggle with Islam? From what I've read, our common struggle is with ourselves, withing, in an ascetic nature.

Well, I guess we just differ here.ÂÂ  I see Islam as a major enemy to Christ's Church, you don't.ÂÂ  You see the Serbian Orthodox Church as your enemy.ÂÂ  May God grant you the strength to see the light.

Quote
This is why our Bishops don't bless the guns of our military as to go off to battle with the "Islamists."


Our Bishops don't bless guns, they bless people.

Quote
However, I know and believe that Our Lord will take care of His work so that we do not need to think of revenge on earth.

I know this too, and I am quite certain, brutalizing ARCHBISHOP Jovan is not what Our Savior had in mind either(since we are talking about revenge).


Quote
The fact that Albanian flags fly over Tetovo and all the other municipalities where Albanians make up a 50% majority has nothing to do with the Church situation, but it has everything to do with incapable politicians, Western Imperialism, and Balkan criminality.


It has everything to do with the fact that your government and clergy have sold their souls.

Quote
Not to mention if we were as militant as you say we are, perhaps the flags wouldn’t be flying, or perhaps thousands would have died. I mean, I always get lost in these conversations, are we supposed to loose our Orthodox Christian morals in order to play loyal to the Serbians and “universal Orthodoxy”?

Are you kidding me?ÂÂ  So what you're saying is that it is better to fly the Islamic flag of Albania over the second largest city in Macedonia, rather than allow for Orthodox Churches to remain standing in Macedonia, because in doing so you would be pandering to "Serbians" and "universal Orthodoxy".ÂÂ  That is really intelligent.

Quote
My apologies to everyone, but I'm supposed to be happy about this and jump at the thought about being in "communion" with this? Until my “Slav brethren” look me in the eye, with dignity, call me by my name, recognize my heritage, culture, language, and church, I have no obligation to be loyal to them.

Until Macedonia stops brutalizing Orthodox Clergy, jailing Orthodox Clergy and tearing down Orthodox Churches I have no obligation to be loyal to anything or anyone Macedonian.

Quote
However, I will always continue to love them, and I will always long to be part the universal Church community.


This is wishfull thinking, if you're saying what I think you're saying.
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« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2005, 04:33:13 PM »

This was the only thing worth replying to:

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You see the Serbian Orthodox Church as your enemy.

This is most certainly untrue. There is ony ONE enemy


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« Reply #38 on: August 04, 2005, 04:40:40 PM »

This is most certainly untrue. There is ony ONE enemy

Anything non-Macedonian, apparently.  I suppose you can define "everything" as being one thing.
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« Reply #39 on: August 04, 2005, 04:40:52 PM »

This was the only thing worth replying to:

It's amazing.  An Orthodox Bishop, sits in a Macedonian jail cell, stripped of his prayer book, icons, vestments and dignity, and you find nothing worth replying to.

Let me ask you a very simple question;

Do you acknowledge and recognize Bishop Jovan as a Bishop in the Orthodox Church?
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« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2005, 04:49:46 PM »

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Do you acknowledge and recognize Bishop Jovan as a Bishop in the Orthodox Church?

Zoran Vranishkovski was a Bishop in the Orthodox Church.


There is only ONE enemy....


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« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2005, 04:51:49 PM »

Zoran Vranishkovski was a Bishop in the Orthodox Church.

Translated... "I don't believe he is a Bishop, even though recognized as such".
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« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2005, 04:57:52 PM »

For my brothers in Christ:

Lord Jesus Christ, in Your great mercy You prayed for the forgiveness of those who crucified You, and You taught us to love our enemies and to pray for those who persecute us. Lord, I pray that You forgive those who treat me unjustly and speak out against me, and that You bless them and guide them according to Your will. Take away any bitterness I may have in my heart against them. Lord, may Your forgiveness, goodness and love be revealed in all of us, to Your praise and glory. Amen.

-----------------------------------

Christ my God, set my heart on fire with love in You, that in its flame I may love You with all my heart, with all my mind, and with all my soul and with all my strength, and my neighbor as myself, so that by keeping Your commandments I may glorify You the Giver of every good and perfect gift. Amen.

-------------------------------------

Prayer of St. Francis of Assisi

Lord make me an Instrument of Your peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.
Divine Master, grant that I may not seek
to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. Amen

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« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2005, 05:03:19 PM »

"Prayer of St. Francis of Assisi"

But we're the ones who have sold out to ecumenism.  Right.  Why don't you translate that prayer into Bulgarian errr I mean macedonian...
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« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2005, 05:09:08 PM »

The prayer of St. Francis?

Embracing not only schism, but heresy, too?

Let's see, phyletism, ecumenism, anything else to add to the list?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2005, 05:09:23 PM by Veniamin » Logged

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