Author Topic: Islam  (Read 9023 times)

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Offline immerlein

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Re: Islam
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2016, 02:08:25 AM »
Here is an ikon of the Theotokos being poisoned as per the Torah:



Is it just my "modernism" that makes me dislike this part of the Torah?

Could someone please explain this icon to me?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2016, 02:08:53 AM by immerlein »

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Islam
« Reply #46 on: April 18, 2016, 08:13:12 AM »
Here is an ikon of the Theotokos being poisoned as per the Torah:



Is it just my "modernism" that makes me dislike this part of the Torah?

Could someone please explain this icon to me?
good question, when did joseph acussed the theotokos and asked the jewish authorities to get her poisoned so she can be tested ? I dont remember this part in the gospel...someone should explain this.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 08:15:54 AM by Vanhyo »

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Islam
« Reply #47 on: April 18, 2016, 10:39:47 AM »
Here is an ikon of the Theotokos being poisoned as per the Torah:



Is it just my "modernism" that makes me dislike this part of the Torah?

Could someone please explain this icon to me?
good question, when did joseph acussed the theotokos and asked the jewish authorities to get her poisoned so she can be tested ? I dont remember this part in the gospel...someone should explain this.
Not in the canonical gospels, this is a part of the Gospel of James, off which a lot of hymn material came.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Islam
« Reply #48 on: April 18, 2016, 12:13:53 PM »
Actually, St. Joseph had already been revealed she was bearing a child as a virgin, this was something the priests forced upon both of them.


Quote
And the priest said: I will give you to drink of the water of the ordeal of the Lord, and He shall make manifest your sins in your eyes. And the priest took the water, and gave Joseph to drink and sent him away to the hill-country; and he returned unhurt. And he gave to Mary also to drink, and sent her away to the hill-country; and she returned unhurt. And all the people wondered that sin did not appear in them. And the priest said: If the Lord God has not made manifest your sins, neither do I judge you. And he sent them away. And Joseph took Mary, and went away to his own house, rejoicing and glorifying the God of Israel.
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: Islam
« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2016, 02:00:54 PM »
@RaphaCam thx for the info

Offline immerlein

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Re: Islam
« Reply #50 on: April 19, 2016, 11:39:52 PM »
@RaphaCam thx for the info

Yes, thank you :) That's very interesting.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Islam
« Reply #51 on: April 20, 2016, 07:30:44 AM »
Here is an ikon of the Theotokos being poisoned as per the Torah:



Is it just my "modernism" that makes me dislike this part of the Torah?

Could someone please explain this icon to me?
good question, when did joseph acussed the theotokos and asked the jewish authorities to get her poisoned so she can be tested ? I dont remember this part in the gospel...someone should explain this.
Not in the canonical gospels, this is a part of the Gospel of James, off which a lot of hymn material came.
I guess the Angel wasn't enough.

PP
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Offline HaydenTE

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Re: Islam
« Reply #52 on: April 20, 2016, 10:51:37 AM »
Here is an ikon of the Theotokos being poisoned as per the Torah:



Is it just my "modernism" that makes me dislike this part of the Torah?

Could someone please explain this icon to me?
good question, when did joseph acussed the theotokos and asked the jewish authorities to get her poisoned so she can be tested ? I dont remember this part in the gospel...someone should explain this.
Not in the canonical gospels, this is a part of the Gospel of James, off which a lot of hymn material came.
I guess the Angel wasn't enough.

PP
IIRC, in the Protoevanglium, Joseph was away when the Annuciation happened, so people could have made assumptions in the mean time.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 10:52:31 AM by HaydenTE »
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Islam
« Reply #53 on: April 20, 2016, 11:17:06 AM »
Here is an ikon of the Theotokos being poisoned as per the Torah:



Is it just my "modernism" that makes me dislike this part of the Torah?

Could someone please explain this icon to me?
good question, when did joseph acussed the theotokos and asked the jewish authorities to get her poisoned so she can be tested ? I dont remember this part in the gospel...someone should explain this.
Not in the canonical gospels, this is a part of the Gospel of James, off which a lot of hymn material came.
I guess the Angel wasn't enough.

PP
IIRC, in the Protoevanglium, Joseph was away when the Annuciation happened, so people could have made assumptions in the mean time.
What about the dream, though?

PP
"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker

Offline HaydenTE

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Re: Islam
« Reply #54 on: April 20, 2016, 12:10:23 PM »
Here is an ikon of the Theotokos being poisoned as per the Torah:



Is it just my "modernism" that makes me dislike this part of the Torah?

Could someone please explain this icon to me?
good question, when did joseph acussed the theotokos and asked the jewish authorities to get her poisoned so she can be tested ? I dont remember this part in the gospel...someone should explain this.
Not in the canonical gospels, this is a part of the Gospel of James, off which a lot of hymn material came.
I guess the Angel wasn't enough.

PP
IIRC, in the Protoevanglium, Joseph was away when the Annuciation happened, so people could have made assumptions in the mean time.
What about the dream, though?

PP
Joseph wasn't the one who accused her, it was the people who started rumors so the priests decided to try her by poison to see if the rumors were true. Joseph came to her defense, but that wasn't a trusted testimony because the people thought he was lying so he couldn't be held accountable for letting her lose her virginity, which he was supposed to guard.
"For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul?" - Mark 8:36 (DRA)

Offline andrewlya

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Re: Islam
« Reply #55 on: April 20, 2016, 01:42:44 PM »
I have been watching many interesting Christian vs islamic debates on youtube.  I highly recommend listening to David Wood, he is amazing.

Its amazing what muslims follow so passionately. I am not sure how familiar you are all with the Quran, but I have started researching alot about what they believe in the Bible vs the Quran.

The biggest difference I feel is how muslims and the Quran say God tricked the people to think Jesus was crucified, but was not- and that Jesus is not the son of God, and is not God, but just a prophet which was lower than Mohammad. Baiscally, it erased the entire new testament and covenant that Jesus established as our Christ.

I thought about this more and more- and realized- what better way for Satan to decieve people- Mohammad said he had a revelation from the Archangel Gabriel- Interestingly if you look up Galatians 1:8

Galatians 1:8New International Version (NIV)

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

Also another comment Muslims have is that Jesus is not God. They dont understand how we believe in a trinity, but they are all one.

God bless you all
In Christ +
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx  says it all, really. www.jihadwatch.org

Ive read the Quran fully and I can tell you one thing is that it is not a religion of peace, love and tolerance.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 01:43:29 PM by andrewlya »
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Islam
« Reply #56 on: April 20, 2016, 02:32:59 PM »
Here is an ikon of the Theotokos being poisoned as per the Torah:



Is it just my "modernism" that makes me dislike this part of the Torah?

Could someone please explain this icon to me?
good question, when did joseph acussed the theotokos and asked the jewish authorities to get her poisoned so she can be tested ? I dont remember this part in the gospel...someone should explain this.
Not in the canonical gospels, this is a part of the Gospel of James, off which a lot of hymn material came.
I guess the Angel wasn't enough.

PP
IIRC, in the Protoevanglium, Joseph was away when the Annuciation happened, so people could have made assumptions in the mean time.
What about the dream, though?

PP
Joseph wasn't the one who accused her, it was the people who started rumors so the priests decided to try her by poison to see if the rumors were true. Joseph came to her defense, but that wasn't a trusted testimony because the people thought he was lying so he couldn't be held accountable for letting her lose her virginity, which he was supposed to guard.
Exactly, he was actually tested himself, as the excerpt I've posted remarks. I don't think there's anything in this Protoevangelium that doesn't match the canonical books perfectly, with the possible exception of a reference to the old yet minor alternative theory that Cain was born from intercourse between Eve and the serpent.
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May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Islam
« Reply #57 on: April 20, 2016, 02:59:30 PM »
Ive read the Quran fully...

In what language(s)?

Offline biro

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Re: Islam
« Reply #58 on: April 20, 2016, 03:53:52 PM »
I have been watching many interesting Christian vs islamic debates on youtube.  I highly recommend listening to David Wood, he is amazing.

Its amazing what muslims follow so passionately. I am not sure how familiar you are all with the Quran, but I have started researching alot about what they believe in the Bible vs the Quran.

The biggest difference I feel is how muslims and the Quran say God tricked the people to think Jesus was crucified, but was not- and that Jesus is not the son of God, and is not God, but just a prophet which was lower than Mohammad. Baiscally, it erased the entire new testament and covenant that Jesus established as our Christ.

I thought about this more and more- and realized- what better way for Satan to decieve people- Mohammad said he had a revelation from the Archangel Gabriel- Interestingly if you look up Galatians 1:8

Galatians 1:8New International Version (NIV)

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

Also another comment Muslims have is that Jesus is not God. They dont understand how we believe in a trinity, but they are all one.

God bless you all
In Christ +
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx  says it all, really. www.jihadwatch.org

Ive read the Quran fully and I can tell you one thing is that it is not a religion of peace, love and tolerance.

I figured that was where you were getting it from.
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Offline andrewlya

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Re: Islam
« Reply #59 on: April 20, 2016, 03:58:49 PM »
Ive read the Quran fully...

In what language(s)?
English but was comparing verses from the Quran I was reading to Quran on quran.com with other Islamic Scholars's interpretations.My favourite translation is by Muhsin Khan.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 04:03:42 PM by andrewlya »
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Offline andrewlya

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Re: Islam
« Reply #60 on: April 20, 2016, 03:59:53 PM »
I have been watching many interesting Christian vs islamic debates on youtube.  I highly recommend listening to David Wood, he is amazing.

Its amazing what muslims follow so passionately. I am not sure how familiar you are all with the Quran, but I have started researching alot about what they believe in the Bible vs the Quran.

The biggest difference I feel is how muslims and the Quran say God tricked the people to think Jesus was crucified, but was not- and that Jesus is not the son of God, and is not God, but just a prophet which was lower than Mohammad. Baiscally, it erased the entire new testament and covenant that Jesus established as our Christ.

I thought about this more and more- and realized- what better way for Satan to decieve people- Mohammad said he had a revelation from the Archangel Gabriel- Interestingly if you look up Galatians 1:8

Galatians 1:8New International Version (NIV)

8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

Also another comment Muslims have is that Jesus is not God. They dont understand how we believe in a trinity, but they are all one.

God bless you all
In Christ +
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx  says it all, really. www.jihadwatch.org

Ive read the Quran fully and I can tell you one thing is that it is not a religion of peace, love and tolerance.

I figured that was where you were getting it from.
And I don't mean from those web site I have provided. I have actually read the whole book.
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Re: Islam
« Reply #61 on: April 20, 2016, 04:05:01 PM »
Ive read the Quran fully...

In what language(s)?
English but was comparing verses from the Quran I was reading to Quran on quran.com with other Islamic Scholars's interpretations.My favourite translation is by Muhsin Khan.

But you don't have the same concern for translations that add/subtract words to/from the Quran that you do about the Bible? 

Offline andrewlya

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Re: Islam
« Reply #62 on: April 20, 2016, 04:44:48 PM »
Ive read the Quran fully...

In what language(s)?
English but was comparing verses from the Quran I was reading to Quran on quran.com with other Islamic Scholars's interpretations.My favourite translation is by Muhsin Khan.

But you don't have the same concern for translations that add/subtract words to/from the Quran that you do about the Bible?
Yeah, that is why I said that I was comparing the translation that I was reading to the other translation on qura.com

Are you saying that If Quran says to "fight the people of the Book", it diesn't really say that or imply it due to bad translation?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 04:44:57 PM by andrewlya »
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Re: Islam
« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2016, 04:55:41 PM »
Ive read the Quran fully...

In what language(s)?
English but was comparing verses from the Quran I was reading to Quran on quran.com with other Islamic Scholars's interpretations.My favourite translation is by Muhsin Khan.

But you don't have the same concern for translations that add/subtract words to/from the Quran that you do about the Bible?
Yeah, that is why I said that I was comparing the translation that I was reading to the other translation on qura.com

Are you saying that If Quran says to "fight the people of the Book", it diesn't really say that or imply it due to bad translation?

I just asked you about whether or not you are as careful with the Quran as you are with the Bible.  I'm not going to get into Islam with you because I don't really care about Islam. 

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Re: Islam
« Reply #64 on: April 20, 2016, 05:21:02 PM »
Ive read the Quran fully...

In what language(s)?
English but was comparing verses from the Quran I was reading to Quran on quran.com with other Islamic Scholars's interpretations.My favourite translation is by Muhsin Khan.

But you don't have the same concern for translations that add/subtract words to/from the Quran that you do about the Bible?
Yeah, that is why I said that I was comparing the translation that I was reading to the other translation on qura.com

Are you saying that If Quran says to "fight the people of the Book", it diesn't really say that or imply it due to bad translation?

I just asked you about whether or not you are as careful with the Quran as you are with the Bible.  I'm not going to get into Islam with you because I don't really care about Islam.
I was very careful with reading Islam when I was reading really disturbing and shocking verses of Quran I really wanted to double check them against other translatios/interpretations to see whether the verses were the same or similar so I went on Quran.com for that.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Islam
« Reply #65 on: April 22, 2016, 12:34:10 AM »
David Wood is a good apologist, as is Sam Shamoun.

Lots of things to dislike about Islam but what irks me the most is their view of nature of God. The Islamic god is a schizophrenic who's judgment is completely arbitrary. He's not holy, just and righteous like our Lord Almighty.

Well, it's what you get when you combine the divine command theory (in its most extreme form) with theological voluntarism.

Both of these things, incidentally, began to surface in the West sometime around the 12th century, quite possibly as a result of Islamic influence on the scholastic thinkers.
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Re: Islam
« Reply #66 on: April 22, 2016, 07:01:52 PM »
Ive read the Quran fully...

In what language(s)?
English but was comparing verses from the Quran I was reading to Quran on quran.com with other Islamic Scholars's interpretations.My favourite translation is by Muhsin Khan.
I believe that Moslem apologists declare unless you read it in it's originial Arabic you don't understand the complete revelation of it.

Or something like that.
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Re: Islam
« Reply #67 on: April 22, 2016, 07:39:34 PM »
Ive read the Quran fully...

In what language(s)?
English but was comparing verses from the Quran I was reading to Quran on quran.com with other Islamic Scholars's interpretations.My favourite translation is by Muhsin Khan.
I believe that Moslem apologists declare unless you read it in it's originial Arabic you don't understand the complete revelation of it.

Or something like that.
Yes. They also say the Quran can only exist in Arabic, so they usually give their translations fancy names such as "the Holy Quran explained verse by verse" or simply "translation of the Holy Quran" (as opposed to merely "the Holy Quran").
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Islam
« Reply #68 on: April 22, 2016, 07:46:52 PM »
Ive read the Quran fully...

In what language(s)?
English but was comparing verses from the Quran I was reading to Quran on quran.com with other Islamic Scholars's interpretations.My favourite translation is by Muhsin Khan.
I believe that Moslem apologists declare unless you read it in it's originial Arabic you don't understand the complete revelation of it.

Or something like that.
Yes. They also say the Quran can only exist in Arabic, so they usually give their translations fancy names such as "the Holy Quran explained verse by verse" or simply "translation of the Holy Quran" (as opposed to merely "the Holy Quran").

Is that view held amongst both Sunni and Shia, or just the former?

I do know that the predominant Sunni view is that the Quran is uncreated (and therefore, is itself divine in a sense). Shiites don't believe this.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Islam
« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2016, 07:48:39 PM »
Ive read the Quran fully...

In what language(s)?
English but was comparing verses from the Quran I was reading to Quran on quran.com with other Islamic Scholars's interpretations.My favourite translation is by Muhsin Khan.
I believe that Moslem apologists declare unless you read it in it's originial Arabic you don't understand the complete revelation of it.

Or something like that.
Yes. They also say the Quran can only exist in Arabic, so they usually give their translations fancy names such as "the Holy Quran explained verse by verse" or simply "translation of the Holy Quran" (as opposed to merely "the Holy Quran").

Is that view held amongst both Sunni and Shia, or just the former?

I do know that the predominant Sunni view is that the Quran is uncreated (and therefore, is itself divine in a sense). Shiites don't believe this.
Not sure, almost all missionary work of Islam in the Western world is Sunni. Shiites are pretty ethnic when they are a minority.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 07:49:10 PM by RaphaCam »
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May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Islam
« Reply #70 on: April 22, 2016, 08:01:01 PM »
Ive read the Quran fully...

In what language(s)?
English but was comparing verses from the Quran I was reading to Quran on quran.com with other Islamic Scholars's interpretations.My favourite translation is by Muhsin Khan.
I believe that Moslem apologists declare unless you read it in it's originial Arabic you don't understand the complete revelation of it.

Or something like that.
Yes. They also say the Quran can only exist in Arabic, so they usually give their translations fancy names such as "the Holy Quran explained verse by verse" or simply "translation of the Holy Quran" (as opposed to merely "the Holy Quran").

Is that view held amongst both Sunni and Shia, or just the former?

I do know that the predominant Sunni view is that the Quran is uncreated (and therefore, is itself divine in a sense). Shiites don't believe this.
Not sure, almost all missionary work of Islam in the Western world is Sunni. Shiites are pretty ethnic when they are a minority.

Yeah, that's true. The most missionary-minded non-Sunnis tend to be groups like the Ahmadis and Ismailis, rather than straight-up Twelver Shia.

The Ahmadi however aren't always viewed as "real" Muslims, especially in their native Pakistan, where they are discriminated against. The Pakistani government went so far as to refuse to recognize Mohammed Abdus-Salam's achievements in theoretical physics, because even though he was Pakistani, he was also an Ahmadi and so they gave him the cold shoulder.

The Ismailis (specifically, the Nizari Ismailis) are interesting in that today they have a very progressive, non-violent outlook (similar to the Ahmadis) and place a lot of emphasis on humanitarian work. Yet in the past, this wasn't always the case; the infamous "Assassins / Hashashins" of the medieval era were Nizari Ismailis. In some sense, they are kind of like the Anabaptists of Islam, in that they are a peaceful group descended from a far less peaceful historical one.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 08:04:12 PM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Islam
« Reply #71 on: April 22, 2016, 08:16:50 PM »
Ive read the Quran fully...

In what language(s)?
English but was comparing verses from the Quran I was reading to Quran on quran.com with other Islamic Scholars's interpretations.My favourite translation is by Muhsin Khan.
I believe that Moslem apologists declare unless you read it in it's originial Arabic you don't understand the complete revelation of it.

Or something like that.
Yes. They also say the Quran can only exist in Arabic, so they usually give their translations fancy names such as "the Holy Quran explained verse by verse" or simply "translation of the Holy Quran" (as opposed to merely "the Holy Quran").

Is that view held amongst both Sunni and Shia, or just the former?

I do know that the predominant Sunni view is that the Quran is uncreated (and therefore, is itself divine in a sense). Shiites don't believe this.
Not sure, almost all missionary work of Islam in the Western world is Sunni. Shiites are pretty ethnic when they are a minority.

Yeah, that's true. The most missionary-minded non-Sunnis tend to be groups like the Ahmadis and Ismailis, rather than straight-up Twelver Shia.

The Ahmadi however aren't always viewed as "real" Muslims (especially in their native Pakistan, where they are discriminated against).

The Ismailis (specifically, the Nizari Ismailis) are interesting in that today they have a very progressive, non-violent outlook (similar to the Ahmadis) and place a lot of emphasis on humanitarian work. Yet in the past, this wasn't always the case; the infamous "Assassins / Hashashins" of the medieval era were Nizari Ismailis. In some sense, they are kind of like the Anabaptists of Islam, in that they are a peaceful group descended from a far less peaceful historical one.
I didn't know Assasins were Ismaili. I was aware they were peaceful, so it strikes me as weird.

Most Muslims in my country are peaceful Shiite colonials uncaring (sometimes even hostile) towards potential converts, but there is a tiny yet widespread community of Wahhabi converts. God forbid, I'm really worried about possible attacks in the Olympics in my city... Rio is not France or Belgium, any idiot can buy a rifle here and I'm a bit surprised that all the pro-ISIS propaganda from these Wahhabis simply ceased from day to night.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 08:18:01 PM by RaphaCam »
"May the Lord our God remember in His kingdom all Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, which heralds the Word of Truth and fearlessly offers and distributes the Holy Oblation despite human deficiencies and persecutions moved by the powers of this world, in all time and unto the ages of ages."

May the Blessed Light shine Forth

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Islam
« Reply #72 on: April 22, 2016, 08:55:52 PM »
Ive read the Quran fully...

In what language(s)?
English but was comparing verses from the Quran I was reading to Quran on quran.com with other Islamic Scholars's interpretations.My favourite translation is by Muhsin Khan.
I believe that Moslem apologists declare unless you read it in it's originial Arabic you don't understand the complete revelation of it.

Or something like that.
Yes. They also say the Quran can only exist in Arabic, so they usually give their translations fancy names such as "the Holy Quran explained verse by verse" or simply "translation of the Holy Quran" (as opposed to merely "the Holy Quran").

Is that view held amongst both Sunni and Shia, or just the former?

I do know that the predominant Sunni view is that the Quran is uncreated (and therefore, is itself divine in a sense). Shiites don't believe this.
Not sure, almost all missionary work of Islam in the Western world is Sunni. Shiites are pretty ethnic when they are a minority.

Yeah, that's true. The most missionary-minded non-Sunnis tend to be groups like the Ahmadis and Ismailis, rather than straight-up Twelver Shia.

The Ahmadi however aren't always viewed as "real" Muslims, especially in their native Pakistan, where they are discriminated against. The Pakistani government went so far as to refuse to recognize Mohammed Abdus-Salam's achievements in theoretical physics, because even though he was Pakistani, he was also an Ahmadi and so they gave him the cold shoulder.

The Ismailis (specifically, the Nizari Ismailis) are interesting in that today they have a very progressive, non-violent outlook (similar to the Ahmadis) and place a lot of emphasis on humanitarian work. Yet in the past, this wasn't always the case; the infamous "Assassins / Hashashins" of the medieval era were Nizari Ismailis. In some sense, they are kind of like the Anabaptists of Islam, in that they are a peaceful group descended from a far less peaceful historical one.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that one gentlemen shopkeep who was killed in Scottland, was a ahmadi Muslim, he was killed for wishing Christians a Happy Easter, and Good Friday. I was reading a article in the Guardin how the both Sunnis, and Shia Muslims have been shunning the Ahmadi muslims. From what I read since the Millitary Coup in the 1970's, they aren't considered "real Muslims", and face heavey persecution in Pakistan.

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Islam
« Reply #73 on: April 22, 2016, 08:55:53 PM »
Ive read the Quran fully...

In what language(s)?
English but was comparing verses from the Quran I was reading to Quran on quran.com with other Islamic Scholars's interpretations.My favourite translation is by Muhsin Khan.
I believe that Moslem apologists declare unless you read it in it's originial Arabic you don't understand the complete revelation of it.

Or something like that.
Yes. They also say the Quran can only exist in Arabic, so they usually give their translations fancy names such as "the Holy Quran explained verse by verse" or simply "translation of the Holy Quran" (as opposed to merely "the Holy Quran").

Is that view held amongst both Sunni and Shia, or just the former?

I do know that the predominant Sunni view is that the Quran is uncreated (and therefore, is itself divine in a sense). Shiites don't believe this.
Not sure, almost all missionary work of Islam in the Western world is Sunni. Shiites are pretty ethnic when they are a minority.

Yeah, that's true. The most missionary-minded non-Sunnis tend to be groups like the Ahmadis and Ismailis, rather than straight-up Twelver Shia.

The Ahmadi however aren't always viewed as "real" Muslims, especially in their native Pakistan, where they are discriminated against. The Pakistani government went so far as to refuse to recognize Mohammed Abdus-Salam's achievements in theoretical physics, because even though he was Pakistani, he was also an Ahmadi and so they gave him the cold shoulder.

The Ismailis (specifically, the Nizari Ismailis) are interesting in that today they have a very progressive, non-violent outlook (similar to the Ahmadis) and place a lot of emphasis on humanitarian work. Yet in the past, this wasn't always the case; the infamous "Assassins / Hashashins" of the medieval era were Nizari Ismailis. In some sense, they are kind of like the Anabaptists of Islam, in that they are a peaceful group descended from a far less peaceful historical one.

 shoot, double post, typing from phone.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 08:59:14 PM by seekeroftruth777 »

Offline 786SalamKhan

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Re: Islam
« Reply #74 on: June 11, 2016, 09:33:06 AM »
As a former Muslim, here is my view on Islam:

Anything contrary to the truth is by that very fact, false. And Islam is contrary to the truth. The Catholic Church was founded by Christ Himself, but yet the teachings of Islam are blatantly contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

A Muslim would assert that Jesus Christ did not found a Church (despite the evidence), and that all the records of the 'people of the book' were lost and/or corrupted (without providing any evidence for this). This is blatantly illogical, not merely due to lack of evidence, but blatantly illogical for Islam as well.

It is an essential teaching of Islam that Muhammad was a prophet of the Abrahamic Tradition, yet how can this teaching be proven/authenticated when Muslims claim that all the records of the 'people of the book' were lost and/or corrupted? That is the equivalent of saying that Muhammad was a prophet of the Abrahamic Tradition cannot be proven/authenticated; but, Muslims believe that Muhammad was a prophet of the Abrahamic Tradition nonetheless, without any question.

If the Bible was changed, then:

1. Can Muslims prove when, where, why, and how this happened?

2. How do Muslims prove Muhammad was the successor of all the other prophets when they believe the way to prove it has been corrupted?