Author Topic: Septuagint translation online  (Read 7999 times)

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Offline Sabbas

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Septuagint translation online
« on: July 28, 2005, 12:16:03 AM »
I recently found that the complete Septuagint translation made by Sir Lancelot C. L. Brenton in 1851 is now online at http://www.pomog.org/
First I want to say that I was delighted when I found this and I hope this will help others like me who do have not yet learned enough Greek to read the Septuagint in its original.
Second I want to ask if anyone can point out the translations defects and whether it is any better than reading the Douay-Rheims translation of the Latin Vulgate?
www.hungersite.com  Ãƒâ€šÃ‚  www.freedonation.com you can donate up to 20 times at freedonation.  http://www.pomog.org/ has online 1851 Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton English translation of Septuagint.http://www.cnrs.ubc.ca/greekbible/ Original Koine Septuagint and New Testament.

Offline SeanMc

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Re: Septuagint translation online
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2005, 01:17:48 AM »
Quote
Second I want to ask if anyone can point out the translations defects and whether it is any better than reading the Douay-Rheims translation of the Latin Vulgate?

I've *heard* that the Douay-Rhiems, besides being a faithful translation of the Sixto-Clementine Vulgate, is apparently quite close to the original Greek, and even uses the old Greek names for books (such as Paralipomenon, or however one spells it). The only major defect in the Douay-Rheims that I can link of is 1 John 5:8 which says, "And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three agree."

The RSV translates this as, "And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is truth." The revised Nova Vulgata (which is not Jerome's Vulgate, but a revision of it considering the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts) agrees with the Greek and the RSV. However, we do see the same translation in the KJV for that verse as we do the Douay-Rheims. I guess there were some manuscript problems back then.

As to your original inquiry, from what I can see, the translation by C.L. Brenton is an extremely faithful translation of the Seventy.

Offline prodromos

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Re: Septuagint translation online
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2005, 02:01:58 AM »

Offline sin_vladimirov

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Re: Septuagint translation online
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2005, 02:39:29 AM »
A really God page on LXX is: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/7224/Rick/Septuagint/spindex.htm

I have purchased Brentton's LXX in May but since I have been busy with other books to give it a read.


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Offline Kosmas

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Re: Septuagint translation online
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2005, 06:00:40 AM »
In Wikipedia it says

Quote
All [Latin] translations were made obsolete by St. Jerome's Vulgate version of the Bible. Jerome knew Hebrew, and revised and unified the Latin Bibles of the time to bring them into conformity with the Hebrew as he understood it. The liturgical Psalms, however, are often taken from the older Latin bibles.

The problem with this is according to my Catholic Biblical studies professor was that the Hebrew was not the same as the LXX Greek and so the Vulgate is not based on the traditional and authentic original Bible. You cannot compare the Vulgate to the LXX. It's like comparing pears with apples.
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Offline Kosmas

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Re: Septuagint translation online
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2005, 06:01:58 AM »
My Lecturer was a NUN by the way they are not allowed to lie.  ;D
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Offline Sabbas

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Re: Septuagint translation online
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2005, 06:02:42 PM »
I've *heard* that the Douay-Rhiems, besides being a faithful translation of the Sixto-Clementine Vulgate, is apparently quite close to the original Greek, and even uses the old Greek names for books (such as Paralipomenon, or however one spells it). The only major defect in the Douay-Rheims that I can link of is 1 John 5:8 which says, "And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three agree."

The RSV translates this as, "And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is truth." The revised Nova Vulgata (which is not Jerome's Vulgate, but a revision of it considering the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts) agrees with the Greek and the RSV. However, we do see the same translation in the KJV for that verse as we do the Douay-Rheims. I guess there were some manuscript problems back then.

As to your original inquiry, from what I can see, the translation by C.L. Brenton is an extremely faithful translation of the Seventy.
1 St.John 5:8 has been the subject of endless debates over it's canonicity. There was a discussion on this site a few months ago about that very passage.
More septuagint resources
http://students.cua.edu/16kalvesmaki/lxx/Texts.htm
A really God page on LXX is: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pines/7224/Rick/Septuagint/spindex.htm

I have purchased Brentton's LXX in May but since I have been busy with other books to give it a read.
Thank you both for the links.
I don't think I will ever buy a copy of the Brenton translation as it is now online and I am trying to learn Koine so I won't need a translation. Recently I was told that the Koine of the Septuagint is slightly different from that of the New Testament. Can anyone explain this to me?
In Wikipedia it says

The problem with this is according to my Catholic Biblical studies professor was that the Hebrew was not the same as the LXX Greek and so the Vulgate is not based on the traditional and authentic original Bible. You cannot compare the Vulgate to the LXX. It's like comparing pears with apples.
Kosmas I have taken courses in Old and New Testament Biblical scholarship at a Roman Catholic University and I was shocked to see they now follow the Masoretic text more faithfully than the Protestants. The Orthodox belief is that the Septuagint is the most faithful to the original Hebrew texts and that the Masoretic texts are an unfaithful compilation made by anti-Christian Pharisees. When you look at who founded the Academy of Jamnia and what was going on when it was founded it seems quite obvious that there was an anti-Christian agenda at work from the beginning. I think you already understand this so I won't belabor the point.

Quote
You cannot compare the Vulgate to the LXX. It's like comparing pears with apples.
I am a little confused by this statement. As SeanMc accurately mentioned the Latin Vulgate uses the Greek names for the Old Testament books, includes the Deutero-Canonical books, utilizes Septuagint Psalter, and follows the Septuagint on important passages such as Esaias (Isaiah) 7:14. Though St.Jerome utilized his knowledge of Hebrew and the Masoretic texts I think we can say he did remain faithful to the Septuagint on important points which makes comparison between the Latin Vulgate and Septuagint purposeful.

My Lecturer was a NUN by the way they are not allowed to lie. ;D
It doesn't prevent the scholarship they utilize from being filled with anti-Christian bias. I very much liked the priest who taught the courses I took but he was clearly one of many surving Vatican II liberals.
www.hungersite.com  Ãƒâ€šÃ‚  www.freedonation.com you can donate up to 20 times at freedonation.  http://www.pomog.org/ has online 1851 Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton English translation of Septuagint.http://www.cnrs.ubc.ca/greekbible/ Original Koine Septuagint and New Testament.

Offline Keble

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Re: Septuagint translation online
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2005, 08:07:58 PM »
Recently I was told that the Koine of the Septuagint is slightly different from that of the New Testament. Can anyone explain this to me?

I expect it's because the LXX is quite a bit older than the NT (1 to three centuries older, at least, depending on the section).

Offline prodromos

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Re: Septuagint translation online
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2005, 05:17:04 AM »
Something I recently picked up from another forum is that Jerome translated Exodus 34:29-30 and Exodus 34:35 as "Moses grew horns" (horns being a symbol of power, and one of the possible meanings of the Hebrew) instead of "the appearance of the skin of his face was made glorious". (which is also consistent with 2Cor 3:7)

This image has unfortunately become quite entrenched, something I was not formerly aware of.

Michelangelo's Moses
Chambers of the House of Representatives
Joseph Kiselewski's 1965 terracotta Moses




« Last Edit: August 03, 2005, 05:25:13 AM by prodromos »

Offline Jakub

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Re: Septuagint translation online
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2005, 01:48:23 PM »
Brother John,

You are correct on the Douay reading, however before the NAB appeared, a 2nd edition of the Douay was published with revisions to the 1st 8 books of the OT(which a certain unnamed member here has a copy), which reads inline with the Greek.

james

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Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.

Offline Sabbas

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Re: Septuagint translation online
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2005, 05:44:55 PM »
I expect it's because the LXX is quite a bit older than the NT (1 to three centuries older, at least, depending on the section).

I assumed that was part of it but I was interested in what the specific differences are. For example I recently read that the Gospel of St.Luke was written in the older Septuagint Koine. I am curious what this means.

Something I recently picked up from another forum is that Jerome translated Exodus 34:29-30 and Exodus 34:35 as "Moses grew horns" (horns being a symbol of power, and one of the possible meanings of the Hebrew) instead of "the appearance of the skin of his face was made glorious". (which is also consistent with 2Cor 3:7)

This image has unfortunately become quite entrenched, something I was not formerly aware of.

Michelangelo's Moses
Chambers of the House of Representatives
Joseph Kiselewski's 1965 terracotta Moses





That is one interesting aspects of the Latin Vulgate. Cecil B. DeMille said that viewing Michelangelo's statue was whated first piqued his interest in the story of Moses and the Ten Commandments.

Brother John,

You are correct on the Douay reading, however before the NAB appeared, a 2nd edition of the Douay was published with revisions to the 1st 8 books of the OT(which a certain unnamed member here has a copy), which reads inline with the Greek.

james


What were the revisions?
www.hungersite.com  Ãƒâ€šÃ‚  www.freedonation.com you can donate up to 20 times at freedonation.  http://www.pomog.org/ has online 1851 Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton English translation of Septuagint.http://www.cnrs.ubc.ca/greekbible/ Original Koine Septuagint and New Testament.

Offline Jakub

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Re: Septuagint translation online
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2005, 09:59:29 PM »
Sabbas,

The Imprimatur(1953) statement reads; The translation of the Old Testament, except the First Eight Books and the Book of Psalms, is the Douay version, produced under the guidance of the Episcopate and approved for use by the Bishops of the United States.

The translation of the First Eight Books of the OT and entire NT is that of the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine made under the guidance of the US Bishops with notes appended,

The Psalms are from the new Latin Translation (Pius XII) with appended notes.

The provisions therefore of canon 1391 have been completely complied with all parts of this edition.

I like everything but prefer the Sixto Clementine Psalms to the Pius XII version.

Genesis 3:15 resembles the Greek and there are others, but at the moment I'm drawing a blank.

Many Trads dislike this version since it is a "revision".

james
« Last Edit: August 03, 2005, 10:02:39 PM by Jakub »
An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.