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Author Topic: Harry Potter thread with SPOILERS  (Read 4726 times) Average Rating: 0
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Donna Rose
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« on: July 27, 2005, 12:57:41 PM »

OK I actually have a moment or 2, so I'm gonna start this thread up now...

One final warning...this thread contains SPOILERS (i.e. reveals the twists in plot, etc.) for the Harry Potter books, specifically Book #6...read on if you dare Grin






















So, for me, the shock at the end of the book was not so much Dumbledore's death (I vaguely anticipated it, since now Harry will hafta go forward and fulfill his destiny without the aid of the best wizard in the world - and we get to see if DD has prepared Harry correctly and well, which is a tricky question unto itself)...for me, the shock was that SNAPE is the one that kills him!!!! After I finished the book that night, I started crying and sobbing for a while because I had so many hopes for Snape as the character in the books who would redeem himself in ways some of the purely good characters could never fathom, and they appeared to be crushed by the end of this book. Until my eyes were opened by the online world of HP theorizing (lol)...since now, I now see that there is an abundance of evidence that the death scene is not how it seems...so, I don't have time to list evidence right now, but who out there thinks Snape might *not* be wholly evil, and was, brace yourself, acting on DD's orders? Smiley This is what I think has occurred, and I will go into why later. Please respond with your thoughts Smiley
« Last Edit: July 27, 2005, 12:57:54 PM by Donna Rose » Logged

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monkvasyl
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« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2005, 01:21:12 PM »

One final warning...this thread contains SPOILERS (i.e. reveals the twists in plot, etc.) for the Harry Potter books, specifically Book #6...read on if you dare
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I was shocked by the death of Dumbledore by the hand of Snape.  Tho, when Dumbledore says "Please" to Snape its not a plea for mercy, but to do what is necessary.  I'm sort of at the point were I think Dumbledore's death was planned by Dumbledore, himself.  Which would explain why Snape pushed Draco aside.  Dumbledore's death reminds me of the death of Obi Wan in the 1st Star Wars' movie.  Obi Wan allowed himself to be killed so that as a spirit he would be more powerful to help Luke.

It was rather intense for Harry to recount how his parents were killed.

I wanted Hagrid to be made the head of the Gryffindor House by the new Headmistress, but maybe that might happen in Book 7.

Speaking of Book 7...JKR says it will be shorter than Goblet of Fire, but with all that needs to be accomplished I just can't imagine it being shorter.
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« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2005, 09:48:41 PM »

I agree that the entire thing was planned beforehand...the biggest piece of evidence for this IMO is the argument in the woods overheard by Hagrid, between Snape and DD in which Snape says he wants to call something off and DD says he can't because he agreed to it - I believe the thing they were arguing about was Snape killing DD - Snape didn't want to, DD told him he agreed to it (even swore an Unbreakable Vow to do so, but this was after the plan was made between Snape and DD, IMO) and so he must stick to the plan - plus it is in character w/ DD to protect Draco, who has never killed before, and have Snape step in and do the job since Snape would be called on to do it anyway and his cover would have to be blown one way or the other, whatever he decided to do. This way Snape's loyalty to Voldemort will no longer be questioned, and he will be able to get as close as ever to Voldemort, find his weaknesses and use them to help Harry in the end. At this point in the battle, Snape's position very close to Voldemort is more valuable than DD's aid - and I think we will see this come to fruition in Book 7 when Snape winds up helping Harry in some very large way.

This isn't to say that DD is outta the game completely - I believe he will still be a part of everything in some way - whether it be through his portrait on the headmistress's wall, his memories in the pensieve (this is where I think we will finally learn why DD trusts Snape so fully), or perhaps through the pheonix that flies from his tomb at his funeral - I have a hunch it may be a form of DD, not him as an animagus since I *do* believe he is dead, but simply being reborn as a pheonix that will become to Harry what Fawkes was to DD - this is just a hunch tho.

A close look at Snape running away after killing DD and Harry chasing him will also prove illuminating - Snape will not let anyone kill Harry, and even goes so far as to yell battle tips to Harry as they duel and Snape flees. Furthermore, Snape snaps when Harry calls him a coward, which would make sense if Snape just performed the hardest thing he has ever done and will receive NO credit for any of his work since the entire Order will believe him to be evil now. There is more evidence, but for now I'll leave it at that. I hafta believe Snape will turn out to be good, and to help Harry in the end...but I honestly don't think it's just wishful thinking, since there is evidence, and JKR sets it up so that it could feasibly go either way - smart smart woman! Smiley

Also, I read that Book 7 will be shorter than OOTP, which is a tad longer than GoF - but I agree that it still doesn't seem like long enough to tie up all the loose ends.
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monkvasyl
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2005, 08:46:42 AM »

I sort of believe that DD is not dead, but that with the help of Snape he created a doppleganger.  This would fit with the disagreement between Snape and DD, because Snape would be the only one to know DD is alive, all the O of P would think along with V that Snape murdered DD.  I feel this way because of the discussion DD had with Draco..."he can't kill you if you are already dead.  We can hide you." 

There are those who believe that Harry, in the end will have to die, it will be the only way to defeat V because V had put a part of his soul in Harry.  Probably during the so-called resurrection rite in GOF.  Far fetch, but still a possibility, tho not one I want to see carried out.
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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2005, 11:41:44 AM »

We've lent the book to some friends, so I can't look at it right now, but as I think about it, Rowling is very careful about what words and phrases she uses.  I want to re-read some crucial exchanges with both Snape and DD.

Ebor
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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2005, 02:40:55 PM »

I think, and hope, that Donna Rose is right... though I'm still mad at Rowling for killing Sirius Black.
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2005, 02:47:17 PM »

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I sort of believe that DD is not dead, but that with the help of Snape he created a doppleganger.  This would fit with the disagreement between Snape and DD, because Snape would be the only one to know DD is alive, all the O of P would think along with V that Snape murdered DD.  I feel this way because of the discussion DD had with Draco..."he can't kill you if you are already dead.  We can hide you."

Actually, yours is the first DD-is-still-alive argument that actually makes a bit of sense...I reread the argument in the woods last night, and this would fit the words they said a bit better than my theory. For some reason though, the fact that 1) the binding spell on Harry gets released at the moment of the Killing curse, and 2) DD's portrait turns up on the headmistress's wall automatically, both make me think he is dead, at least in body (perhaps not in spirit? hence my pheonix theory - I mean, we don't know anything about how pheonixes are initially born, do we? they could be very powerful *good* wizards who do something before they die to ensure they come back as a pheonix - just my thoughts Smiley )
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2005, 03:17:46 PM »

For some reason though, the fact that 1) the binding spell on Harry gets released at the moment of the Killing curse, and 2) DD's portrait turns up on the headmistress's wall automatically, both make me think he is dead, at least in body (perhaps not in spirit? hence my pheonix theory - I mean, we don't know anything about how pheonixes are initially born, do we? they could be very powerful *good* wizards who do something before they die to ensure they come back as a pheonix - just my thoughts Smiley )

Harry being released from the binding spell and the manifestation of the portrait could also be part of DD's plan, in order to make it really look like he's dead.

As for the birth of pheonixes...it might all depend of JKR.ÂÂ  The only "human" pheonix I know of was on the 1966-1971, ABC soap opera, "Dark Shadows"ÂÂ  Every 100 yrs she would go up in flames to be reborn.ÂÂ  She owed her loyality to the Egyptian god Ra.ÂÂ  It was also on "Dark Shadows" that I first saw the use of a doppleganger as a ploy for appearing dead.ÂÂ  Its a long story, but a vampire from 1795 was released in 1967, orginally bad but became good and was trying to save his family, the Collinses, from supernatural evil.ÂÂ  He was transported to 1897 from 1967 to stop a ghost from possessing children in 1967.ÂÂ  He was found out to be a vampire and was being hunted.ÂÂ  He was able to get the witch that originally cursed him to create the doppleganger and have that staked.ÂÂ  He was later "cured" by a doctor, also from 1967, and then prevented the future ghost from carrying out his plans.ÂÂ  DS was a "different" type of soap opera...miss one episode and you were lost for days...lol

Me, again.  Before anyone has a fit that a monk watched a show like "Dark Shadows"...I was in high school and then a community college at that time.  Also, having watched a show, like DS and vampires, to this very day I have never had any cravings for blood, human or otherwise, and have never slept in a coffin.  Coffins give me the creeps.
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2005, 05:57:38 PM »

I'd forgotten the Dark Shadows "phoenix" (I was in grade school when it was on, and I also have never had any interest in drinking blood or any of that. Side Bar: David Selby, who played "Quentin Collins" did the voice of the Griffon in the animated "The Griffon and the Minor Canon" a charming story btw.) 

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The very fact of Severus Snape being willing to make the vow to Narcissa Malfoy is very interesting.  It's one more stroke showing more humanity in what could have been a standard issue "Character-who-hates-the-hero".  But instead, the (possible) nobility, and charity and pity for a mother in agony is very much unexpected or unusual.

Similarly Draco is given some more marks of humanity with the scene talking to Moaning Myrtle and crying.  He may be a snob and a bully, but he is also a frightened boy and later, one who doesn't want to kill his headmaster.

Ebor

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« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2005, 01:56:11 AM »

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The very fact of Severus Snape being willing to make the vow to Narcissa Malfoy is very interesting.  It's one more stroke showing more humanity in what could have been a standard issue "Character-who-hates-the-hero".  But instead, the (possible) nobility, and charity and pity for a mother in agony is very much unexpected or unusual.

This is an interesting way to view it, and I believe this is present in the scene...I had a bit more of a practical explanation for his taking the vow, which was that to refuse to do so would cause the Death Eaters to further suspect him and possibly hint to Voldemort that something was up - he needed to make it clear that his loyalties were with Voldemort (which ultimately they are not, as I believe, but he needed to keep up the ruse though)...furthermore, if you pay close attention to the vow, his hand twitches at the 3rd part, which was that he would do the deed if Draco was unable to do so...which I think was him flinching at the fact that his very life was now tied to killing DD, the only person in his life who has ever given him a chance, trusted him, and even loved him (IMO).

But I do agree w/ you Ebor, that in a pure sense it does let us see Snape acting in a way that seems to be compassionate. There are theories on my HP boards that Snape is in love w/ Narcissa...I don't believe this for a second. What is far more likely is that Snape was in love w/...Lily Potter Smiley what do y'all think?
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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2005, 11:29:11 AM »

This is an interesting way to view it, and I believe this is present in the scene...I had a bit more of a practical explanation for his taking the vow, which was that to refuse to do so would cause the Death Eaters to further suspect him and possibly hint to Voldemort that something was up - he needed to make it clear that his loyalties were with Voldemort

But would it, I wonder?  Bellatrix is quite against all this.  And the Death Eaters seem to me to have a good streak of if they could make other members look bad in Voldamort's eyes, then there would be more power/gifts/chances for advancement for *them*.

Narcissa is either a good actress or genuinely terrified for the life of her only child.  Her husband, who I would guess *does* love her and she him, even if he's a sneering snob against Muggles (Even Lucius isn't totally inhuman, though Voldamort and some of the other DE's do seem that way.)

This act seems very much out of character for Severus Snape, but we know that he is also an only chlld who had a terrible home life.   I think there is more depth here.

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But I do agree w/ you Ebor, that in a pure sense it does let us see Snape acting in a way that seems to be compassionate. There are theories on my HP boards that Snape is in love w/ Narcissa...I don't believe this for a second. What is far more likely is that Snape was in love w/...Lily Potter Smiley what do y'all think?

I think that could well be.  Snape has said things against James Potter, and we've seen the memory of the bullying.  But nothing that I recall against Lily and she did have compassion on him.

Ebor
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2005, 03:05:58 PM »

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I think that could well be.  Snape has said things against James Potter, and we've seen the memory of the bullying.  But nothing that I recall against Lily and she did have compassion on him.

Exactly. There has been speculation about DD's reason for trusting Snape so implicitly, and one scenario that has come up (which has been growing on me more and more) is that Snape was in love w/ Lily...then he overhears half of the prophecy when DD was interviewing Trelawney for the Divination job, and at this point he is still a faithful Death Eater so he goes running to Voldemort. Voldemort does his calculations, and decides the baby that needs killing is Harry, so he goes to Godric's Hollow and the famous beginning of this series occurs - Lily dies. Snape was unaware that by telling Voldemort half the prophecy he was fingering the Potters, and specifically Lily Potter, the only person to have ever shown him any kindness at all. And it is for *this* reason that he turns to DD and offers his services as a double agent, in an attempt to somehow make up for what he has done - caused Voldemort to kill Lily. One other version of this scenario has Snape at the scene of the murders w/ Voldemort (since JKR refuses to say if Voldemort was there alone that night) and so he had to witness her death first hand. Furthermore, it would explain why Snape seems to hate Harry so much - 1) he looks just like the man Lily chose over him, who happened to be the person who tormented him most in school, and 2) he (Harry) is the living evidence of Lily's and James' love for each other - not a reminder Snape would enjoy having around...anyway, the entire thing seems very compelling to me, and I can't wait til next book when we will hopefully get access to DD's memories and hopefully we, and Harry, will get to witness why exactly DD trusts Snape so much.

As for Narcissa and Draco - I agree that Narcissa is acting without any ulterior motives when she pleads w/ Snape to help her son, which *was* a refreshing look at your typical Death Eater family...and I wanted Draco to take DD's offer of protection for his family so badly, because I think that at least Narcissa would have cooperated.
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« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2005, 03:07:38 PM »

Sorry for the late entry to this thread, but I had to wait in line for the family copy of the book.   

One bit of dialogue I found very interesting -- and I think supportive of Donna Rose's hope that Snape will turn out good -- is his shouted "NO, POTTER!" at the end of his battle with Harry.  This comes after a series of different exchanges (taunts, etc.) and is very different in tone from the rest of the scene.  I think that, just perhaps, Snape was saying, "Don't screw things up!"  Like DR, I hope Snape shows his true, and different, colors in Book 7.

Another thought:  Did anyone else get the impression from the end of HBP that Book 7 will not stick to the single-school-year timeline of the previous 6?
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« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2005, 04:20:19 PM »

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Another thought:  Did anyone else get the impression from the end of HBP that Book 7 will not stick to the single-school-year timeline of the previous 6?

I am determined that JKR will not abandon the single-school-year timeline...I believe it is literary suicide (IMO), because she has this beautiful symmetry to her series right now, and the single-year-at-Hogwarts-per-book device very nicely holds the whole thing together...we must remember, just because Harry says it doesn't mean it is true - the books are largely from his perspective, which is great when the readers know things he doesn't - makes for great reading. So, just because he has said he isn't returning to Hogwarts doesn't mean he isn't returning to Hogwarts. As for Harry having too much to accomplish in a single year (4 horcruxes plus a battle w/ Voldemort), I believe he will need help, and as much as he wants to do it alone, I think only a fool would try to take that on with no help from more experienced witches and wizards, and Harry may be a lot of things but I don't believe he is a fool.

Anyway, glad to have you on board with the thread, BJohnD Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2005, 04:30:21 PM »

Harry, like most of us, tends to say the 1st thing in his mind.  He's in pain because of the death of DD and that Snape did it.  The school hold too many memories and pain, so his reaction is to want to stay far away from there and get V for all the pain he has inflicted on Harry and those he loves.  Of course, being Harry he'll want to do it on his own and probably fears that anyone who loves or cares for him is doomed to suffer.  So he pushes those who love him away...Ginny in particular.  He will come to his senses and will return to Hogwarts and slip out to combat his arch-enemy.
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« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2005, 04:46:41 PM »

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He will come to his senses and will return to Hogwarts and slip out to combat his arch-enemy.

Or in my ideal ending to Book 7, Voldemort will come to Hogwarts and battle Harry there - in the one place that both Harry and Voldemort feel is like a home neither ever had, and the ancient magic of the building, enhanced by DD's death and the presence of the White Tomb, will come to Harry's aid to defeat Voldemort.

I don't know why but for some reason I want the final battle to go down at Hogwarts - with no students being hurt of course Smiley this is just my ideal, not necessarily practically likely Smiley but you never know w/ JKR...
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« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2005, 04:54:25 PM »

this is just my ideal, not necessarily practically likely Smiley but you never know w/ JKR...

and a very good idea, I might add.  From your mouth to JKR's pen.
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« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2005, 08:09:06 PM »

Thanks, DR.  It's been a while.  Your idea would perfect the symmetry you've pointed to earlier.  Good one. 

While Neville was mostly absent from HBP, I have a feeling he will play a large role in the finale.  JKR played up his background in a big way in OOTP, and as someone else noted earlier, she usually includes such things for a reason.
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« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2005, 10:19:47 AM »

I think you're quite correct, BJohnD, regarding Neville.  There are are little bits or threads from earlier books that are important in later ones.  I don't think that JKR would go to the trouble of so much information about Neville and his family just to add "colour". 

I have read that Rowling has a huge chart that she uses for keeping connections and links and following though.

Ebor
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« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2005, 07:01:05 AM »

EUREKA!


ok, i've been re-reading (sorry this has nothign to do with DD, though at least he will be present in the portrait) book 6 again.ÂÂ  

The horcrux locket was replaced, with the note regarding it signed by RABÂÂ  To me this is pretty obviously Regulus Black(sirius' brother you will remember), who left Voldemort and was killed for it after a couple of days.ÂÂ  I think he took the locket...AND then it occurred to me that I had read of a locket before...and i cross referenced it.ÂÂ  On pg 116 of Phoenix, they are cleaning out the cupboards inthe sitting room of all the nasty objects...andf there is "a heavy gold locket that nobody could open"ÂÂ  I think THAT is the horcrux.ÂÂ  What better place to hide it than right under their noses?ÂÂ  As for Sirius getting rid of all that stuff, Kreacher kept nicking things, and when Hermione goes to gift him with that quilt at Christmas, there in Kreacher's den is a glittering pile of objects inthe back...I think that ultimately they will find the locket horcrux in Kreacher's den.ÂÂ  Whether it has been rid of Voldemort's soul or not remains to be seen...in fact it would be interesting if it turned out to be the last thing they find before the final showdown with Voldemort!

*so excited, now waiting for rebuttals*

Aurelia

Little later, edit so don't double post

I have read through all the comments here on Snape and such, and I see some valid arguments.  I was also hoping tfor some sort of redemption for Snape, and some explanation as to why he hates Harry so much...the idea that Snape cared for Lily ias interesting, and the hatred could be a mask for anguish at the living reminder of Lily and what he (snape) had done. I have a small soft spot for Snape, but then i always seem to like the bad guys, especiall if they aren't really as bad asd they are made out to be. I also think the gryffindor sword will come into play again, whether as a horcrux (because DD is so convinced it is safe...but do we really have any evidence it has never been tampered with?) or as the final recue thing for Harry...hard to say. And that potion book, that I suspect will be in evidence in book 7.   I for one would like to see book 8.  I mean, I would like a book 8, that could show us whether harry does become an auror, what happens in the aftermath of whatever goes down in book 7, and would be something to look forward to if 7 is shortish.

DD, that is harder, we know that the portraits can aid and talk and move about..DD would likely have several portraits as well (like Dyllis) and that could be an advantage.  But I still think a lot of action is going to come about at Sirius'--now Harry's--house.

Anybody else think that something is going to happen at Bill and Fleur's wedding? 
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« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2005, 12:45:13 PM »

OK, yay for more HP talk!

RE: the locket at the Black residence, I'm with you on this one, but I suggest another possibility of its whereabouts at this point...in book 6 Harry runs into Mundungus and the barman of the Hog's Head just outside of the Three Broomsticks in Hogsmeade. Harry discovers some of Sirius'-now-Harry's possessions under Mundungus' coat, and almost attacks him for stealing from his deceased godfather. I think Mundungus may have knicked the locket and it is now long sold...but I have a crazy idea of to whom it has been sold. The barman of the Hog's Head is a character who has turned up many a time throughout the series, never named, and there is talk among closer readers than I, who have also studied all of JKR's interviews on the matter, that the barman is Albus Dumbledore's brother Aberforth...who would also be an inconspicuous member of the Order and such. I believe he will come forward in book 7 to help Harry and possibly give him the locket, bought off of Mundungus at a far cheaper price than it's worth. Just an idea...

I hafta head to work now, but I wil respond to more of aurelia's post when I get back. In the meantime, let me know what y'all think of this idea about where the locket is and the barman/Aberforth theory...

D
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« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2005, 04:04:58 PM »

I like that idea but it would only work if...
*Sirius hadn't been throwing all that stuff out.  Though she didnt specify that ALL of it was thrown out, but the impression was given
*Kreacher didn't nick the locket BEFORE Mundungus had a chance (who is to say that he wasn't going through the rubbish bins after all was said and done?)

I like th idea of Alberforth, though, popping up, and remember that in 7 duing a memory DD had mentione he was on friendly terms with the local barmen.  They arealso twins, right? DD and Al? Copuld Al have possibley taken DD's place to be killed?  Hmmmm..

And I almost forgot about Neville...which we shouldn't.  He is gong to play a significant role in 7...look how well he came along on charms in the DA when he was motivated.  And what about Luna?  (i like her)

you know we are probably overthinking this  Grin  but I LOVE HP and I'll talk about it anytime!
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Donna Rose
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« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2005, 07:35:29 PM »

the one other reply I wanted to make to aurelia's original post is regarding the aftermath, and specifically Harry's career choice lol...I know that until now his ambition has been to be an auror, but for some reason I feel like the aurors are sucha cool job right now because Voldemort and his goons are gaining power again...after Harry defeats Voldemort (as I feel he will), I don't know if the job will still have the appeal it has for Harry - I mean, I think the reason he wanted to be an auror was that it was the only job he could see coinciding with both doing good and living in a way that would honor his parents' deaths. Once Voldy is gone though, I think he may find his calling elsewhere, and I personally would want to see him take up the Defense Against the Dark Arts position under McGonagall (his instructing the DA is an indication that he is good at it and actually enjoys it, and in a way is passionate about DADA), w/ Hermione eventually teaching Transfiguration...this is a few years down the road once both couples (Harry/Ginny and Hermione/Ron) are happily married and looking for stable jobs lol...OH and I *definitely* think something will go down at Fleur's and Bill's wedding, even if it's simply Harry making contact with the Order whether he wants to or not (and I personally think Lupin, Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, and maybe Aberforth if he turns up will encourage him to go back to Hogwarts, and a deal will be struck as to how Harry will be able to to hunt for the horcruxes while also attending school in his 7th year - I just cannot see the 7th book being called "Year 7" without Harry completing the year in some capacity).

Just my ramblings Smiley I love HP talk too, and it's fun to overthink and come up w/ all the possible plotlines!

D
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aurelia
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« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2005, 08:33:28 AM »

Oh yes I've always thouht harry should end u teaching Defense at hogwarts too, it would be the perfect job for him really.
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Fr. David
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« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2005, 06:10:20 PM »

OK!

So I've FINALLY 1) checked out a copy of the book on CD from the library (was on a waiting list and had NO time to actually sit down and read; been listening to and from work this past week) and 2) gotten through with it all this afternoon!

Love the thoughts, y'all!  My wife and I were talking about many of the same things.  I think Snape will be good at the end, as well.  Now, as I said, I don't have a hard copy here in front of me, but when Snape was being chased by HP and kept blocking HPs jinxes, he (Snape) finally said something to the effect of, "You won't be doing any jinxes till you learn to close your mind and keep your mouth shut!"  Obviously, being an expert in oclumency (sp? sorry, y'all... Embarrassed), Snape knew of HPs still-present succeptibility to having his mind read; confronting V with this fault would be suicide.  Also, the use of non-verbal spells, combined with a resistance to oclumency, would most likely be essential to defeating V by outmaneuvering him.

Thus, Snape's yell doesn't seem to be a taunt but rather advice.  DD's been right about everything so far; he's got to be right about this, too, I think.

The idea that a love for Lily caused Snape to truly repent is attractive, Donna; nice!

Good thoughts, all...
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« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2005, 01:00:53 PM »

Conditions for an "unforgivable curse" to work an alternative interpretation of D's death:

Has no one noticed that Rowling, in the tradition of British mystery writing, always gives us the clues we need to put it together? Sometimes you can't do the math till after the revelation, but it's all there if you go back and look for the hints. So, regarding the forbidden curses we are told at least 3 times over the course of the series that in order to perform an "unforgivable curse" you have to 1) have the power (which Snape does) and 2) really mean it (which Snape may not.) We are given these conditions by the faux Moody in Book 4, and again by Bellatrix in Book 5 (during the fight scene when Harry tries to use "Crucio" on her in the entrance hall to the Ministry of Magic. It works, but only in a reduced degree, because he is not sufficiently hateful.

Snape even alludes to these conditions in the 6th book after he has "killed" Dubledore and is fleeing from the castle but turns to confront Harry who is pursuing with intent to kill or at least torture Snape. Harry starts the Crucio curse but Snape deflects it and says "No Unforgivable curses from you Potter!...You haven't got the nerve or the ability--" (US ed. p 602.) So I have to ask, if Snape didn't have sufficient intention or didn't "have the nerve" could he have failed? Or, more likely, could he have been faking the look of hate and malice in order to convince the Death Eaters that he had killed Dumbledore? Or, perhaps the look of hate was genuine, but not directed at Dumbledore. (More on this below.)

After all, we know that Snape doesn't need to vocalize in order to perform a curse, so might he have been performing the "Wingardium Leviosa" charm silently in order to levitate Dumbledore off the tower while appearing to be killing him. The Avada Kedavra curse need not blow anyone up into the air from what I can determine. This would explain several anomalies. Specifically it explains why:

1. Dumble dore let a child disarm him 2. Why Dumbledore appeared to be helpless, even though we know that wands are only conduits for the wizards power. (Remember, Harry has performed several acts of self-defence without one before he even cam to Hogwarts.--See book one.--and again he blew up his aunt in book 3.) 2. Why Snape, who supposedly despises Harry, not only protected him from another Death Eater, but admonished him to learn how to do silent curses and "close his mind" through occlumency even after Snape had "killed' Dumbledore and had no reason to fear the consequences of killing Harry. (US ed. p 603.) 3. The Avada Cadavra curse is not necessarily specific to people. "According to J.K. Rowling, the phrase Avada kedavra 'is an ancient spell in Aramaic, and it is the original of abracadabra, which means 'let the thing be destroyed.' Originally, it was used to cure illness and the 'thing' was the illness, but I decided to make it the 'thing' as in the person standing in front of me." The word "kedavra," probably coincidentally, is similar to the word "cadaver," meaning 'corpse.'" (quoted from Answer.com http://www.answers.com/topic/list-of-spells-in-harry-potter.) So it may be that the target was the locket in Dumbledore's pocket. If so then Dubledore was levitated off the tower and the part of Voldemort in the locket was destroyed. But that would make the body of Dumbledore a mere Doppleganger and the locket with the note a mere plant to deceive the Death Eaters and everyone else into thinking that Dumbledore is dead and the threat to the Horcruxes is gone. 4. #3 would then explain why Snape was so paniced when Harry started to say "leviosa" on page 64...could the pronouncement of "Leviosa" have caused Dumbledore's suspended body to fall. He might have been unconscious or injured due to the proximity of the killing curse. 5. It explains why Fawkes, the phoenix (who is unremittingly loyal not only to Dumbledore, but to anyone that is also loyal to Dumbledore)did not show up to save his master. (Remember, he took a curse from Voldemort in Book 5 to save Dumbledore.) And we know htat he is the only creature capable of Apparating within the grounds of Hogwarts. 6. And finally, it explains why Hagrid tells Harry "Snape kill Dumbledore--don' be stupid, Harry....He couldn have. (US ed. p607)" As we should know by now, Hagrid is wiser than he appears and speaks the truth when all others are deceived. Sometimes, he's wrong, but not about Dumbledore. Rowling uses him as her oracle on a regular basis. I think we should heed his words now.

If I am right, the entire 6th book is a set up for a grand revelation in book 7. We are coming to the show down and Dumbledore will show up at thecritical moment as he did in book 5. Snape will be revealed as a loyal member of the order of the Phoenix who has gone into deep cover (by faking D's death) in order to penetrate the Death Eaters at the highest level. Even if he really killed Dumbledore (which explains the "please" from Dumbledore to Snape) Fawkes will play a role in his resurection. (Remeber the apotheosis at D's tomb, wherein Fawkes did his fiery exit over the body?) Dumbledore has often said there are worse things than death...perhaps because he has fould a way to defeat it.
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aurelia
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« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2005, 02:46:24 PM »

Very nicely done!  You bring up some extremely potent observations! *must mull over*

though i am reading , for lack of anything better, #5 again, and harry finds the barman at the hogshead to look vaguely familiar.....and he does bear a similarity in description to DD.  Just thought I would throw that in.
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« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2005, 03:43:18 PM »

Hi all!

This thread has been very interesting.  My theory is that Harry himself is one of the horcruxes.  This could explain the I-need-a-double-strength-Advil effect & why Voldemort won't let anybody touch Harry.  Whaddya'll think?

Be well!

MBZ
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« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2005, 07:18:28 PM »

BDWolfie,

I follow your logic for your theory about DD still being alive, but my challenge is that almost every piece of evidence you point to in favor of DD's death being faked by he and Snape would also work in a situation in which DD's death is *real* but planned by he and Snape, which is my belief. I think DD knew all year he would die whenever Draco attempted to do his task, since Snape would have to step in and do it instead of Draco not only because of the unbreakable vow but also because I believe DD told Snape he would have to in order to protect Draco. My personal interpretation of the rules surrounding the unforgivable curses is that simply the intent of the curse must be firmly in the caster's mind - i.e. they must be capable of the intent...in this way, Crucio is actually a much crueller, more malicious and evil curse than the Killing Curse, and would allow for Snape to be able to cast the latter, since he would have prepared for the moment knowing it was assinged to him to do by DD himself.

This is not to say that DD will not be making an appearance of some kind in Book 7 - I am sure he will be around in some way (and my fun, far-fetched theory is that he turned his spirit into a pheonix at his burial - the pheonix that Harry saw fly from the tomb - and that this pheonix would become to Harry what Fawkes was to DD - but there are many other ways DD can still be around - pensieve and portrait are 2 others that come to mind)...but overall I believe DD is dead at least in body. It makes literary sense to remove him from Harry's hero-tale just before the final act.

As for MBZ's idea that Harry is a horcrux, I have thought about this from all angles and the theory always falls apart when I consider how many times Voldemort has tried to kill Harry in the past 6 years (almost once per book) - not to mention trying to kill him when he was a baby. The only way the theory is feasible is if Harry became a horcrux accidentally when Voldemort's killing curse backfired all those years ago, but my understanding of how the horcruxes work is that Voldemort would probably be aware that his soul was splintered an 8th time, since with each splintering he becomes less human. My feeling is, since what happened at Godric's Hollow 16 years ago was unprecedented in the wizarding world, all the connections between Harry and Voldemort and the explanations we have been given so far should be taken at face value - Harry got Voldy's powers because they were transferred when the curse backfired, which also explains why they had access to each other's minds. As for the theory that Harry is a *used* horcrux, i.e. held Voldy's soul until V's rebirthing party in book 4, this falls up short because 1) Voldy would have already had the 7th bit of soul in his ruined body, and that's what was being resurrected, and 2) the blood of *any* enemy of V's would have sufficed for the rebirthing spell to work - it was merely an obsession with Harry that caused V to want Harry as the provider of the blood for the spell.

Phew, I didn't expect to write so much, but I got all excited by seeing new participants in the discussion. Any thoughts?

D
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« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2005, 03:48:47 PM »

Donna,

As you say, it is not likely that Harry is a Horcrux for V. --for all the reasons you mentioned plus the fact that the issue of Harry's possesion by V has been addressed in book 5.

As for DD being dead, that's the obvious and apparent interpretation. But Rowling likes to mislead us, doesn't she? Undoubtedly DD will show up in the 7th book, but I think his presence will something more substantial than a painting (for all the reasons previously stated.)

BDW
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