Author Topic: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque  (Read 7580 times)

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Offline Glorthac

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St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« on: November 08, 2010, 06:15:33 PM »
Hi, I'm reading St. Augustine's 'On the Trinity' and I noticed he said this:
"The Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son, but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son."

And:
"Thus he says of the Holy Spirit, When I have gone I shall send him to you (John 16:7). Not "we shall send" but as though only the Son would send him, and not the Father too; while elsewhere he says, These things have I spoken to you while remaining among you; but the advocate, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, he will make all things clear to you (John 14:25). Here again it sounds as if the Son is not going to send him, but only the Father."

Do you Orthodox think either of these statements are equivalent to the Filioque? If no, what's the difference?

Thanks!

Offline Dart

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2010, 06:54:48 PM »
Hi, I'm reading St. Augustine's 'On the Trinity' and I noticed he said this:
"The Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son, but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son."

And:
"Thus he says of the Holy Spirit, When I have gone I shall send him to you (John 16:7). Not "we shall send" but as though only the Son would send him, and not the Father too; while elsewhere he says, These things have I spoken to you while remaining among you; but the advocate, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, he will make all things clear to you (John 14:25). Here again it sounds as if the Son is not going to send him, but only the Father."

Do you Orthodox think either of these statements are equivalent to the Filioque? If no, what's the difference?

Thanks!
Sounds like a Orthodox - Other denomination discussion

Offline Melodist

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2010, 08:38:45 PM »
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf103.iv.i.xvii.xvii.html
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And yet it is not to no purpose that in this Trinity the Son and none other is called the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit and none other the Gift of God, and God the Father alone is He from whom the Word is born, and from whom the Holy Spirit principally proceeds. And therefore I have added the word principally, because we find that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son also. But the Father gave Him this too, not as to one already existing, and not yet having it; but whatever He gave to the only-begotten Word, He gave by begetting Him. Therefore He so begat Him as that the common Gift should proceed from Him also, and the Holy Spirit should be the Spirit of both.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Glorthac

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2010, 09:13:20 PM »
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf103.iv.i.xvii.xvii.html
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And yet it is not to no purpose that in this Trinity the Son and none other is called the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit and none other the Gift of God, and God the Father alone is He from whom the Word is born, and from whom the Holy Spirit principally proceeds. And therefore I have added the word principally, because we find that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son also. But the Father gave Him this too, not as to one already existing, and not yet having it; but whatever He gave to the only-begotten Word, He gave by begetting Him. Therefore He so begat Him as that the common Gift should proceed from Him also, and the Holy Spirit should be the Spirit of both.


Is this allowed in Orthodoxy, that the Holy Spirit proceeds principally from the Father, but also from the Son secondarily?

Offline Papist

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2010, 09:14:31 PM »
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf103.iv.i.xvii.xvii.html
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And yet it is not to no purpose that in this Trinity the Son and none other is called the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit and none other the Gift of God, and God the Father alone is He from whom the Word is born, and from whom the Holy Spirit principally proceeds. And therefore I have added the word principally, because we find that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son also. But the Father gave Him this too, not as to one already existing, and not yet having it; but whatever He gave to the only-begotten Word, He gave by begetting Him. Therefore He so begat Him as that the common Gift should proceed from Him also, and the Holy Spirit should be the Spirit of both.


Is this allowed in Orthodoxy, that the Holy Spirit proceeds principally from the Father, but also from the Son secondarily?
That's what the Catholic Church believes. From the Father through the Son.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Melodist

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2010, 09:58:31 PM »
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf103.iv.i.xvii.xvii.html
Quote
And yet it is not to no purpose that in this Trinity the Son and none other is called the Word of God, and the Holy Spirit and none other the Gift of God, and God the Father alone is He from whom the Word is born, and from whom the Holy Spirit principally proceeds. And therefore I have added the word principally, because we find that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son also. But the Father gave Him this too, not as to one already existing, and not yet having it; but whatever He gave to the only-begotten Word, He gave by begetting Him. Therefore He so begat Him as that the common Gift should proceed from Him also, and the Holy Spirit should be the Spirit of both.


Is this allowed in Orthodoxy, that the Holy Spirit proceeds principally from the Father, but also from the Son secondarily?

The latin word for "proceed" has a more general sense to it than the greek word used in the creed. The reference to procession from both the Father and trhe Son is used to describe the essential unity and explain how we receive the Holy Spirit from both and He is referred to as the Spirit of both. He uses the word "principally" to describe the Holy Spirit's origination coming from the Father.

Please forgive me for not offering references, but I'm pretty sure it is not uncommon in eastern patristic tradition to use the phrase "from the Father and through the Son" to describe the Holy Spirit's procession.

The problem with the filioque is that if you were to insert it into the creed in greek, you would either have to change the word used for "proceed" to mean something different (in which case you wouldn't be saying the same thing about the Holy Spirit), or it would be heretical.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Michael_Gerard

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2010, 04:48:18 PM »
Quote
The problem with the filioque is that if you were to insert it into the creed in greek, you would either have to change the word used for "proceed" to mean something different (in which case you wouldn't be saying the same thing about the Holy Spirit), or it would be heretical.
I know I'm likely to get a great many negative responses here, but I don't think it's heretical to believe that the Son has a role in the eternal procession of The Spirit.

Gregory of Nyssa seems to be talking about more than the economic Trinity here:

Quote
If, however, any one cavils at our argument, on the ground that by not admitting the difference of nature it leads to a mixture and confusion of the Persons, we shall make to such a charge this answer;--that while we confess the invariable character of the nature, we do not deny the difference in respect of cause, and that which is caused, by which alone we apprehend that one Person is distinguished from another;-by our belief, that is, that one is the Cause, and another is of the Cause; and again in that which is of the Cause we recognize another distinction. For one is directly from the first Cause, and another by that which is directly from the first Cause; so that the attribute of being Only-begotten abides without doubt in the Son, and the interposition of the Son, while it guards His attribute of being Only-begotten, does not shut out the Spirit from His relation by way of nature to the Father
To Ablabius-There are not three gods (A.D. 375), in NPNF2,V:336

And both Sergius Bulgakov (The Divine Comforter), and Fr. Michael Meerson (The Trinity of Love in Modern Russian Theology) conceive of the Trinity as the ontological relationship between lover, loved, and the living bridge of love between them.

Bulgakov said:

Quote
..."from the Son" and "through the Son" are theological opinions which were dogmatized prematurely and erroneously. There is no dogma of the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Son and therefore particular opinions on this subject are not heresies but merely dogmatic hypotheses, which have been transformed into heresies by the schismatic spirit that has established itself in the Church and that eagerly exploits all sorts of liturgical and even cultural differences".
(The Divine Comforter, pg. 148.)

Living in a largely Protestant country, and being familare with some Protestant sects that deny the personality of The Holy Spirit (and who would say [much as the herertics that Gregory of Nyssa was probably replying to in the above quote] that if two persons emmenate from The Father, one would not be called "The Only Begotten Son"), I could not regard the only useful answer I've seen to such a heresy (St. Gregory's) as "heretical," so I must agree with Bulgakov and Meerson (and what I believe is the clear meaning and intent of St. Gregory.)
 
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 05:13:09 PM by Michael_Gerard »

Offline ialmisry

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2010, 05:33:03 PM »
Quote
The problem with the filioque is that if you were to insert it into the creed in greek, you would either have to change the word used for "proceed" to mean something different (in which case you wouldn't be saying the same thing about the Holy Spirit), or it would be heretical.
I know I'm likely to get a great many negative responses here, but I don't think it's heretical to believe that the Son has a role in the eternal procession of The Spirit.

Gregory of Nyssa seems to be talking about more than the economic Trinity here:

Quote
If, however, any one cavils at our argument, on the ground that by not admitting the difference of nature it leads to a mixture and confusion of the Persons, we shall make to such a charge this answer;--that while we confess the invariable character of the nature, we do not deny the difference in respect of cause, and that which is caused, by which alone we apprehend that one Person is distinguished from another;-by our belief, that is, that one is the Cause, and another is of the Cause; and again in that which is of the Cause we recognize another distinction. For one is directly from the first Cause, and another by that which is directly from the first Cause; so that the attribute of being Only-begotten abides without doubt in the Son, and the interposition of the Son, while it guards His attribute of being Only-begotten, does not shut out the Spirit from His relation by way of nature to the Father
To Ablabius-There are not three gods (A.D. 375), in NPNF2,V:336
Perichoresis.

Quote
And both Sergius Bulgakov (The Divine Comforter),

VERY bad example on this point, given his Sophiology.

Quote
and Fr. Michael Meerson (The Trinity of Love in Modern Russian Theology) conceive of the Trinity as the ontological relationship between lover, loved, and the living bridge of love between them.

Bulgakov said:

Quote
..."from the Son" and "through the Son" are theological opinions which were dogmatized prematurely and erroneously. There is no dogma of the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Son and therefore particular opinions on this subject are not heresies but merely dogmatic hypotheses, which have been transformed into heresies by the schismatic spirit that has established itself in the Church and that eagerly exploits all sorts of liturgical and even cultural differences".
(The Divine Comforter, pg. 148.)

Living in a largely Protestant country, and being familare with some Protestant sects that deny the personality of The Holy Spirit (and who would say [much as the herertics that Gregory of Nyssa was probably replying to in the above quote] that if two persons emmenate from The Father, one would not be called "The Only Begotten Son"), I could not regard the only useful answer I've seen to such a heresy (St. Gregory's) as "heretical," so I must agree with Bulgakov and Meerson (and what I believe is the clear meaning and intent of St. Gregory.)
The filioque empties the Spirit of His personality (or rather, personhood).
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
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Offline Michael_Gerard

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2010, 09:29:47 PM »
Quote
VERY bad example on this point, given his Sophiology.
I don't see why.

Quote
...recent historical research, exploring a certain obstinacy in the memory of the famous dispute about Sophia in the years between the wars, has recalled that in reality, the Orthodox Church exonerated Father Sergius Bulgakov in 1937 from the charges of heresy which may have been all too hastily brought against him. The decree of Metropolitan Sergius, in the absence of the union of the synod, had no legal force. These charges were also inadmissible since the Karlovtsy synod had no canonical authority. These charges may also have been based in political-ecclesiological animosities rather than in theological discourse. The synodal commission convoked by Metropolitan Evlogy removed all suspicion of heresy from the writings of Father Sergius against the accusations of Vladimir Lossky and of Fathers Georges Florovsky and Sergius Chetvev.
http://www.byzantineimages.com/sergei_bulgakov.htm

And if you still don't like Father Bulgakov, Bishop Kallistos Ware would also seem to disagree with you.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 09:56:49 PM by Michael_Gerard »

Offline Michael_Gerard

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2010, 10:48:10 PM »
P.S. The insertion of a Theological opinion into an ecumenical creed (without the aproval of an ecumenical council) is a seperate issue, as is the Pope's hasty and ill-informed (if not ill willed) excumunication of his brother bishops for "removing the filioque" from the Greek text of the creed (something everyone now recognizes as a false charge.)
« Last Edit: November 11, 2010, 11:16:28 PM by Michael_Gerard »

Offline Melodist

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2010, 12:27:29 AM »
Quote
The problem with the filioque is that if you were to insert it into the creed in greek, you would either have to change the word used for "proceed" to mean something different (in which case you wouldn't be saying the same thing about the Holy Spirit), or it would be heretical.
I know I'm likely to get a great many negative responses here, but I don't think it's heretical to believe that the Son has a role in the eternal procession of The Spirit.

It's not a qestion of eternal vs temporal, but of the manner of procession as ultimate ontological beginning vs movement within the Godhead.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Michael_Gerard

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2010, 12:34:30 AM »
Quote
The problem with the filioque is that if you were to insert it into the creed in greek, you would either have to change the word used for "proceed" to mean something different (in which case you wouldn't be saying the same thing about the Holy Spirit), or it would be heretical.
I know I'm likely to get a great many negative responses here, but I don't think it's heretical to believe that the Son has a role in the eternal procession of The Spirit.

It's not a qestion of eternal vs temporal, but of the manner of procession as ultimate ontological beginning vs movement within the Godhead.
Thank you.

Then I have no disagreement.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 12:58:46 AM by Michael_Gerard »

Offline Melodist

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2010, 12:43:16 AM »
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=1176
Quote
On the basis of Jn. 15:26, this Symbol confesses the Spirit "to ek tou Patros ekporeuomenon" ("who takes his origin from the Father"). The Father alone is the principle without principle (arche anarchos) of the two other persons of the Trinity, the sole source (peghe) of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, therefore, takes his origin from the Father alone (ek monou tou Patros) in a principal, proper, and immediate manner.1

The Father's Monarchy

The Greek Fathers and the whole Christian Orient speak, in this regard, of the "Father's Monarchy," and the Western tradition, following St. Augustine, also confesses that the Holy Spirit takes his origin from the Father principaliter, that is, as principle (De Trinitate XV, 25, 47, P.L. 42, 1094-1095). In this sense, therefore, the two traditions recognize that the "monarchy of the Father" implies that the Father is the sole Trinitarian Cause (Aitia) or Principle (Principium) of the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Quote
That is why the Orthodox Orient has always refused the formula to ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon [an unwisely proposed translation of "who proceeds from the Father and the Son"] and the Catholic Church has refused the addition kai tou Uiou [and the Son] to the formula ek to Patros ekporeumenon in the Greek text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Symbol, even in its liturgical use by Latins.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline Michael_Gerard

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2010, 01:05:32 AM »
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to ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon
What would a literal English translation of that be?

Offline Alpo

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2010, 02:04:54 AM »
That's what the Catholic Church believes. From the Father through the Son.

I wonder if ordinary Catholic laymen really understand this since the creed of the Latin church (or whatever the Latin local church within the RCC is called) doesn't make any distinction in between the procession from the Father and from the Son.


the Catholic Church has refused the addition kai tou Uiou [and the Son] to the formula ek to Patros ekporeumenon in the Greek text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Symbol, even in its liturgical use by Latins.

How old is this ban? Has that been forbidded only in recent decades or has it always been in force?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 02:12:42 AM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2010, 03:30:08 AM »
THE FILIOQUE IN THE DUBLIN AGREED STATEMENT 1984
© John S. Romanides

http://www.romanity.org/htm/rom.17.en.the_filioque_in_the_dublin_agreed_statement_1984.01.htm

Comments on the west Roman Orthodox Filioque.


Has anyone found the "Dublin Agreed Statement" of 1984 on the Web?  If memory serves the Orthodox delegates stated that the Augustinian Filioque was acceptable theology (but please check that if possible.)

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2010, 09:42:21 AM »
That's what the Catholic Church believes. From the Father through the Son.

I wonder if ordinary Catholic laymen really understand this since the creed of the Latin church (or whatever the Latin local church within the RCC is called) doesn't make any distinction in between the procession from the Father and from the Son.


I was taught to understand the distinctions in the Persons of the Trinity, and that the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father is not the same as the procession from the Son, and that we make the distinction so that we can:

1) Understand the relationship between the Father and the Son

2) That the Holy Spirit is distinct from both the Father and the Son

Offline Melodist

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2010, 12:47:03 AM »
That's what the Catholic Church believes. From the Father through the Son.

I wonder if ordinary Catholic laymen really understand this since the creed of the Latin church (or whatever the Latin local church within the RCC is called) doesn't make any distinction in between the procession from the Father and from the Son.


the Catholic Church has refused the addition kai tou Uiou [and the Son] to the formula ek to Patros ekporeumenon in the Greek text of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Symbol, even in its liturgical use by Latins.

How old is this ban? Has that been forbidded only in recent decades or has it always been in force?

I don't know, but I'm pretty sure it only applies reciting the creed in eastern rite churches, that is they shuoldn't include it and if someone from a Roman rite church attends an eastern church they should recite the creed as it is in the service book, that is without the filioque. That's the impression I get from it.
And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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Offline ialmisry

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2010, 01:12:12 AM »
Quote
to ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon
What would a literal English translation of that be?
heresy.

the from the Father and the Son proceeding
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline Wyatt

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2010, 01:13:21 AM »
Quote
to ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon
What would a literal English translation of that be?
heresy.

the from the Father and the Son proceeding
The Church does not perpetuate heresy. Filioque is orthodox.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2010, 01:17:25 AM »
Quote
to ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon
What would a literal English translation of that be?
heresy.

the from the Father and the Son proceeding
The Church does not perpetuate heresy.

No it doesn't. That's why she rejected the addition.

Quote
Filioque is orthodox.
It's not Orthodox. Nor Catholic.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2010, 12:19:38 PM »
Filioque is a legitimate expression of Trinitarian existence and act, and those who declare otherwise will never be silenced.   But the teaching is one that is true and useful.  In fact, for some, myself included, filioque is inspirational to the spiritual life, for it allows my own understanding to clarify the distinctions between the Persons as well as the relationships between them.  Many right thinking Orthodox have come to understand that as well and are no less right thinking Orthodox for coming to a different understanding than the one perpetuated by anti-unionists over the centuries. They are a blessing.

Mary

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: St. Augustine of Hippo and the Filioque
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2010, 01:36:19 PM »
Quote
to ek tou Patros kai tou Uiou ekporeuomenon
What would a literal English translation of that be?

from the Father and the Son taking origin

Which is heresy and why the Catholic Church does not allow its insertion in the Creed in Greek even in Latin Churches.

Of course "taking origin from" and "proceeding from" are not exactly the same thing and hence the source of problem between Latin West and Greek East.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2010, 01:44:08 PM by Deacon Lance »
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