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Author Topic: converting to orthodoxy and looking past the obvious paganism.  (Read 6153 times) Average Rating: 0
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st.arius?
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« on: July 26, 2005, 08:53:49 PM »

I really want to convert, but my mind, and a little intellect tells me that orthodoxy has been made the "right opinion" because the church fathers that believed in the trinity, theotokos, and all the saints, martyers, and miracle weilding relics. won the favor of the state. and you know the winners back then always wrote the history.

I have read "eastern orthodox christianity", "when jesus became god", "pilgrims progress"........and now I am throughly confused. oh and I found this web site.......

www.sabbatarian.com


what in gods name should I do? I would like to speak with an orthodox priest.......can I do this without getting my head bitten off?


signed, help.
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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2005, 09:04:43 PM »

I havent known any priests who had the strength of jaw to bite anyone's head off. If you're interested in Orthodoxy, read The Orthodox Church and The Orthodox Way by Bp. Kallistos Ware. By all means, contact a local priest.
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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2005, 09:15:51 PM »

And by all means, stay away from the Jesus Seminar crap.  It's been thoroughly discredited by more learned minds, and is rapidly fading from the theological scene.  You might want to read stuff by Jaroslav Pelikan, a former Lutheran who converted to Orthodoxy.  You'll not find a more educated theological scholar around, recognized as such by just about everyone.
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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2005, 09:23:16 PM »

thanks. in fact I am presently a lutheran so this Pelikan guy is right up my alley, oh and what do you mean "jesus seminar"?
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2005, 10:16:36 PM »

Ahhhh the old, "the victors write the history."  Well, now, that would be a great point if Orthodoxy had won the political argument.  The truth is that, in most cases, what we believe was opposed by the secular authority of the time.  In other words, it was the Orthodox who, in many cases, had their books burned and fled to the desert. 

Arians ruled much of Western Europe for a long time and Arianism was certainly a force to behold.  After the emperor Constantine, almost every Roman "Christian" emperor embraced one heresy or another over Orthodoxy and forced many of our saints into exile.  The opposite happened as well, but certainly not exclusively and perhaps not even in the majority of cases.  The idea that Christianity was changed by Constantine and then institutionalized into the modern Christian faith is a fable heard on the "It's a mystery why they call it the 'history' Channel" and other pop culture "educational" programs.

It is a great idea to read Pelikan, but be sure to look up names of folks on wikipedia or some other source when you get confused about who is who.  Pelikan is one of the better authors for the simple fact that he deals with the ARGUMENTS of participants and not the politics of an era. 

Seriously, do yourself a favor and go to the library and read the books by the experts, of which Pelikan is one of the best.  Don't fall into the trap of reading exciting books that are a joy to read.  History is complicated and understanding what we can is tedious work.  If you're interested in reality, and you certainly seem to be, put in the effort.  It will be worth it.
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2005, 10:22:19 PM »

cizinec

You reference the mystery, I mean history channel in reference to Constantine.  I have heard it preached from Protestant pulpits that Constantine plunged the church into error by institutionalizing it. Thus began a long 1200 yr period of error until Martin Luther.  So these fables aren't just on TV, their in pulpits.
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2005, 10:26:03 PM »

Sad but true.  What a shock to me when I read how so many of our saints were persecuted by the Byzantine emperors.

I'm sure they're teaching divinity students that crap in "school" as well.  The problem is that the history is readily accessible and unquestioned in its accuracy.

May God have mercy on those who spread this lie.
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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2005, 10:53:37 PM »

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oh and what do you mean "jesus seminar"?

The Jesus Seminar is a group of liberal Christians who publish outlandish essays and books about the search for the "historical Jesus". I have read some books by Jesus Seminar fellows, and have yet to find one that was even moderately insightful. Certainly, none of them were orthodox. I read Rabbi Jesus by Bruce Chilton, for instance, because it marketed itself as a look at Jesus from a 1st century Jewish perspective. What was it really like in the time of Jesus?  The book started by saying things like that if Mr. Chilton disagreed with the Gospel, that the Gospel would be considered in error and Mr. Chilton's speculation would be used (this wouldn't come as a suprise to anyone familiar with the Jesus seminar, though. They published a "Bible" in which they color-coded the verses, based on what they thought was authentic. I think it was the Gospel of John that was all black except for like one verse. Black means unauthentic. So they basically said that the Gospel of John was not what it--and the Church--claimed it to be... anyway, I'm digressing)

So Chilton doesn't give historical detail or fact, he gives psychological speculation. He talks about how Jesus supposedly ran away from home at the age of 12 because he had issues with Joseph. Then Jesus had issues with John because of his bad relationship with his Dad. I kid you not, this "scholar" actually said this stuff as though it was serious theological thought. This may seem outlandish, but actually some of the stuff I've read in Marcus Borg is even worse. Crossan always seemed to me to be more moderate(that is, a bit more dry and scholarly, though still a speculative, ultra-liberal, useless, historian/theologian), though I've never been able to force my way through one of his books. I don't mean this post to be a slam against all liberals, I have found some liberals like Hans Kung to be insightful. These Jesus Seminar fellows are just plain bad, though.
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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2005, 11:19:20 PM »

"It's a mystery why they call it the 'history' Channel"ÂÂ  Cheesy

well, the victors is orthodoxy itself. orthodoxy/catholicism were the victors circa 370-400 and later. because in 600 islam swept up most of the original and fundemental arians(jesus=man=great prophet)islam(mohammed=man=great prophet). pretty easy to see were most of the arians went. had orthodoxy embraced arius and the eusebius' then islam may not have even come to be, had orthodoxy not overtured the council in 754 that forbade icons....maybe islam would not had have spread as much as it had. I see that orthodoxy and catholicism were made so darn confusing (and exclusive to clergy) that half the world was lost to islam in half the time it took christianity to spread.

the jesus seminars are one thing but these guys www.sabbatarian.com are very conservative. they believe EVERYTHING THE RCC AND THE EOC believe in regards to social issues.....abstinence, no abortion, no gay marriage. they lay down the law. yet I think they just feel that christianity was hellenized WAY TOO MUCH.

I can plainly see, just like anyone with common sense, that trying to sell a religion that only prays to one god for everything, would be difficult if not impossible. How can you ask hundreds of thousands of people that have been praying to mulitple gods for hundrends of years to stop it.

people probably were wondering what happened to my god of wine, love, poor, sick, good crops, etc......isn't their a saint for these things, too? can you all see where I am coming from?


how does this sound?
to me christianity is more about this:the true monotheistic messianic faith, than this:the trinity.


I really don't mean to debate...............I just want the truth....I have just about had it with "mystery", and fantasy.....I really just want the good news of the messiah yahshua.

« Last Edit: July 26, 2005, 11:38:55 PM by st.arius? » Logged
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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2005, 11:35:44 PM »



 I see that orthodoxy and catholicism were made so darn confusing (and exclusive to clergy) that half the world was lost to islam in half the time it took christianity to spread.

Islam was spread by the sword, Christianity by word of mouth and not usually by the sword (I have read of instances of early European rulers who misunderstood Christinaity as simply another philosophy or just used it for political motives and would thus force Christianity on the people). But when christianity spread to most parts of the Meditaranean countries, it was always spread by the Word of the Apsotles.
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2005, 12:03:38 AM »

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can you all see where I am coming from?

Yes, you're not the first by a long shot.

Quote
how does this sound?
to me christianity is more about this:the true monotheistic messianic faith, than this:the trinity.

How is your "to me Christianity" any more legitimate than David Koresh's "to me Christianity"?  By what objective standard do you measure by?  The Bible?  Who told you what books are in the Bible other than the Church?

The Trinity is not hard.  It's Biblical, and not only that, it's the only coherent explanation of man's salvation.  A Jesus who is only man or only God doesn't save, and either of those explanations relies upon excising a great deal of Scripture, a la the Jesus Seminar folks.  And your salvation is what Christianity is about, not back reading modern Kumbayaism into first century Christian thought.

Go and read Pelikan.  He addresses where you're "coming from" because he was once there.  You need to give sober minds in the Church some credit and try to understand the rationale behind the doctrines.  They're not arrived at willy nilly; there's a soteriological component that ties them all together and it's that soteriological component that led to the rejection of the failed offshoots.
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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2005, 12:11:39 AM »

It seems like you already got everything figured out. You must be about 18? Trust me, you'll know less each year from this point on! Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2005, 01:04:12 AM »

I'll take icon kissing, miracle-chasing, beards, smells, and bells, hellenized Christianity over dry protestantism or theological liberalism any day. Most Holy Theotokos save us! Amen.

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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2005, 01:05:30 AM »

that website about sabbatarians quotes "the Two Babylons." that should be your first clue that there is something awry with the site Wink

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« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2005, 01:49:49 AM »

I'll take icon kissing, miracle-chasing, beards, smells, and bells, hellenized Christianity over dry protestantism or theological liberalism any day. Most Holy Theotokos save us! Amen.

So true.

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« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2005, 02:04:01 AM »

They're not arrived at willy nilly; there's a soteriological component that ties them all together and it's that soteriological component that led to the rejection of the failed offshoots.

Hint:  don't use those "...ological" words.  No one knows what they mean.  I've been Orthodox for 18 years now and still have trouble remembering.
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« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2005, 02:21:14 AM »

Many Elements of Christianity are more Consonant with the Philosophy of the Pagans (specifically the Platonists) than the mindset of the Jews, among these things are the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the Resurrection. However, Christianity is neither Jewish nor Pagan, it has elements of both but is distinct from both as well. As St. Clement of Alexandria Taught, before the Incarnation there were two paths to eternal Life, the Law and Philosophy but now there is but one, Christ, the Fulfillment of not only the Law and the Prophets, but also of the Philosophers and all of Creation.

As far as Christianity needing to change to fit a polytheistic people, it should be noted that by the time Christianity became a state religion, Paganism wasn't really polytheistic, the Philosophers starting with Pythagoras had realized the Problems with Polytheism and advocated Monotheism religating the gods and goddesses of classical myth to demi-gods of a sort, a posistion that is comprable to Arius' teachings about Christ, while the One was Emphasized.

Before one goes confusing, or contrasting, Paganism and Christianity it would be useful if they knew even the basics about both.
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« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2005, 02:46:56 AM »

Quote
Hint:ÂÂ  don't use those "...ological" words.ÂÂ  No one knows what they mean.ÂÂ  I've been Orthodox for 18 years now and still have trouble remembering.

I do not Desire to sound Pompous or like another Adhearent of the Centre of Orthodoxy, the Oecumenical Throne but this is a Case where even a basic knowledge of Greek is very Helpful with such Words.ÂÂ  And afterall Greek is Christian.ÂÂ  Many of those words do contain Important Theological Concepts for the Orthodox Christian.


And so it only makes sense that I'd be listening to German music...
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« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2005, 02:50:46 AM »


the jesus seminars are one thing but these guys www.sabbatarian.com are very conservative. they believe EVERYTHING THE RCC AND THE EOC believe in regards to social issues.....abstinence, no abortion, no gay marriage. they lay down the law. yet I think they just feel that christianity was hellenized WAY TOO MUCH.
sabbatarians?
Please stay away from them, they are even worse than protestants, maybe sin_vladimirov can tell you about these people, get pass the hellenized thing it may seem like rituals, folklore and gimmicks BUT IT'S NOT! It's much more deeper. the only reason why these people are not orthodox is because they are blind just as i was. seek God with all your heart soul mind and strength give yourself time be patient and seek, seek seek, listen listen liste and ask ask ask

Quote
I can plainly see, just like anyone with common sense, that trying to sell a religion that only prays to one god for everything, would be difficult if not impossible. How can you ask hundreds of thousands of people that have been praying to mulitple gods for hundrends of years to stop it.
you don't ask them to stop it, you show them the real One and leve the rest to them

Quote
people probably were wondering what happened to my god of wine, love, poor, sick, good crops, etc......isn't their a saint for these things, too? can you all see where I am coming from?
not really


Quote
how does this sound?
to me christianity is more about this:the true monotheistic messianic faith, than this:the trinity.
christianity is life not theory


Quote
I really don't mean to debate...............I just want the truth....I have just about had it with "mystery", and fantasy.....I really just want the good news of the messiah yahshua.
seek with prayer and dont hesitate to ask anything, praying for you


Quote
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« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2005, 07:47:01 AM »

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well, the victors is orthodoxy itself. orthodoxy/catholicism were the victors circa 370-400 and later.

That's funny.  And I thought St. John Chrysostom was deposed by the emperor Arcadius in 404.  I must be mistaken, since the Orthodox church was triumphant. 

Man, that's one case . . . four years after your end date.  If you would like a list, it would go on and on and on.

And the Christian world after 400 was not some monolithic community singing camp fire songs.  The East and the West had been in schism at least twice and relations were tense, Arians were still a majority in parts of Western Europe and were supported by their Germanic kings, Nestorians were all over the empire and in Persia, there were schisms all over the place from Ephesus which would lead to Chalcedon - and other schisms that are around to this day, and the emperors couldn't ever seem to figure out which side they were on, so book burning and deposed bishops of all sorts were running about the country.

BTW, Constantinople II did a lot to clear Hellenic thought from Christianity. 

I'm trying to find some obvious victor who has the power you claim.  It's just not in the history.
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« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2005, 08:00:08 AM »

I think it would be easier, much easier to count the saints that were not prosecuted by the "christian" emperors and "triumphant Church on earth".

Triumphant Church is above, Militant Church that is below.
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« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2005, 08:39:15 AM »

quite right, sv
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« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2005, 10:01:08 AM »

Wow!!!  That website is like a bad trip!!!  St.Arius, stay away from groups like that.  They are cults.  They are Hebrew Roots groups that think they have the truth by returning to Judaism while embracing Christ (Not as God but as some Prophet).  All this is is Neo-Ebionite hog-wash.  Any reading of St. Paul will debunk these guys.  These guys also debunk themselves by how provincial they are.  They, just like every other mudslinger group, forget that the Orthodox exist and had a major hand in the Councils that produced the Nicene Creed.  Everything is always blamed on the big bad RCC.  That right there removes these guys' credibility in my eyes (besides the fact that they deny Christ their Lord, and the Church, and pretty much everything else that is true and pure and holy).
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« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2005, 10:41:28 PM »

An African Creed
A Masai version of Christianity's Nicene Creed, developed by missionaries in Africa.   

We believe in the one High God, who out of love created the beautiful world and everything good in it. He created man and wanted man to be happy in the world. God loves the world and every nation and tribe on the earth. We have known this High God in darkness, and now we know him in the light. God promised in the book of his word, the bible, that he would save the world and all the nations and tribes.

We believe that God made good his promise by sending his son, Jesus Christ, a man in the flesh, a Jew by tribe, born poor in a little village, who left his home and was always on safari doing good, curing people by the power of God, teaching about God and man, showing the meaning of religion is love. He was rejected by his people, tortured and nailed hands and feet to a cross, and died. He lay buried in the grave, but the hyenas did not touch him, and on the third day, he rose from the grave. He ascended to the skies. He is the Lord.

We believe that all our sins are forgiven through him. All who have faith in him must be sorry for their sins, be baptized in the Holy Spirit of God, live the rules of love and share the bread together in love, to announce the good news to others until Jesus comes again. We are waiting for him. He is alive. He lives. This we believe. Amen. 



this creed inspires me......non of that "god from god" "light from light" jazz......simple, easy, and moving. I get teary eyed when I read this.
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« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2005, 10:43:32 PM »

Well, why dont you go there?

Lord have mercy.
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« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2005, 10:49:21 PM »

kind of weird, and vain. SV

lord have mercy on this guys soul.
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« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2005, 10:50:46 PM »

Quote
this creed inspires me......non of that "god from god" "light from light" jazz......simple, easy, and moving. I get teary eyed when I read this.

How could you not get "teary eyed" when listening to the sublime mysteries of God made manifest in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed: Deum de deo, lumen de lumine, Deum Verum de Deo vero. Genitum, non factum...
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« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2005, 10:52:40 PM »

troll
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« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2005, 11:04:06 PM »

Wow!!!ÂÂ  That website is like a bad trip!!!ÂÂ  St.Arius, stay away from groups like that.ÂÂ  They are cults.ÂÂ  They are Hebrew Roots groups that think they have the truth by returning to Judaism while embracing Christ (Not as God but as some Prophet).ÂÂ  All this is is Neo-Ebionite hog-wash.ÂÂ  Any reading of St. Paul will debunk these guys.ÂÂ  These guys also debunk themselves by how provincial they are.ÂÂ  They, just like every other mudslinger group, forget that the Orthodox exist and had a major hand in the Councils that produced the Nicene Creed.ÂÂ  Everything is always blamed on the big bad RCC.ÂÂ  That right there removes these guys' credibility in my eyes (besides the fact that they deny Christ their Lord, and the Church, and pretty much everything else that is true and pure and holy).


I believe the website actually is trying to say the universal church....of course back then I think it was understood that the universal church was orthodox and catholic. or the "right opinion and universal".....the hard references to the RCC is not exclusive, they mean the EOC as well.....from what I can tell.
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« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2005, 11:29:11 PM »

this creed inspires me......non of that "god from god" "light from light" jazz......simple, easy, and moving. I get teary eyed when I read this.

Go for the weepy emotional sentimentalism if you like.  I'll stick with the creed formulated at Nicea and its statements of the truth about God that God has revealed to us.  Choosing that Masai creed is like asking for grape kool-aid when offered an exquisite wine.
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« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2005, 11:40:19 PM »

Guys,

He/she comes on an Orthodox website with the name of st.arius?, asks a question which he/she proceeds to answer in a way we will all disagree.  He/she doesn't seem to be interested in reading anything more serious than a comic book about an Elvis impersonator.

troll.
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« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2005, 11:44:07 PM »

Guys,

He/she comes on an Orthodox website with the name of st.arius?, asks a question which he/she proceeds to answer in a way we will all disagree.ÂÂ  He/she doesn't seem to be interested in reading anything more serious than a comic book about an Elvis impersonator.

troll.

I'm trying to learn....you are vain and a little defensive...........god have mercy.
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« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2005, 11:49:29 PM »

I think I'll stick to the Nicene Creed and the Faith once delivered to the saints also.  If these guys and others want to believe Neo-Ebionite Judaism and Neo-Arian Non-Deity of Christ, then all I can say is:

"KYRIE ELEISON!"

Christianity is not a feeling.  If it were, we'd be in a mess.  The Scriptures say that the heart (where our emotions come from) is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things.  Trusting in emotions is like trusting a shark not to devour you alive when you are bleeding.  Don't get me wrong, my faith inspires me and makes me feel wonderful, but I don't rely on that as a test of my faith and religion.  Just because that Masai creed makes you feel all gushy doesn't mean you should trust it.  St. Arius?  Pray, study the scriptures prayerfully, and address your concerns to a priest.  He will be able (hopefully) to address your problems.  I have found that the Abounas (Fathers) are very approachable and happy to answer the questions of an honest seeker.
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« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2005, 11:53:14 PM »

Learn?

Oh is THAT what you call it when someone says, "hey, go read this book," and you respond by answering your own question in not only the most offensive way but the most historically ridiculous way.

Look, if you're serious then stop reading the websites and go read some books.  And stop posting crap like, "the Chruch burned all the writings of Nestorius" when writings of Nestorius are in the records of the Third Council.  If you don't know, then don't bark it out as a fact.  Learning is asking and looking up the answer in legitimate sources, not radical web sites.
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« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2005, 01:39:38 AM »

Quote
How could you not get "teary eyed" when listening to the sublime mysteries of God made manifest in the Nicene-Constantinople Creed: Deum de deo, lumen de lumine, Deum Verum de Deo vero. Genitum, non factum

Perhaps it would make me sense to quote the actual Creed which reads "φως εκ φωτός, Θεόν αληθινόν εκ Θεού αληθινού, γεννηθέντα ού ποιηθέντα."  There is not Deum de Deo in the original creed.  Also what is the point of quoting something in a language that is neither the original nor the comon language of the audience other than to accent an inept translation?
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« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2005, 02:08:40 AM »

A Masai warrior in Kenya was recently ordained as an Orthodox priest. Guess which creed he recites.

John
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« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2005, 02:36:30 AM »

It is interesting that he cites the Masai Creed which Jaroslav Pelikan cites as an example of a differently worded creed stating the same beliefs as ours.
Apparently our new member is not reading either creed correctly.
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« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2005, 02:43:37 AM »

Quote
Perhaps it would make me sense to quote the actual Creed which reads "φως εκ φωτός, Θεόν αληθινόν εκ Θεού αληθινού, γεννηθέντα ού ποιηθέντα."  There is not Deum de Deo in the original creed.  Also what is the point of quoting something in a language that is neither the original nor the comon language of the audience other than to accent an inept translation?

I use Latin as I'm a Classicist. My studies in Greek do not progress as fast as those in Latin; nevertheless, I'm focusing on 5th century BC Attic Greek, rather than Hellenistic Greek or the Greek after that (no idea what that is called). I must say, looking at the Greek originals of the councils is a bit confusing orthographically, seeing kappa replaced by chi in so many places.

The Latin is a rather good translation, not inept, except for one part in the original Latin translation of the First Council of Nicene from the Greek: "quod Graeci dicunt homousion."
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« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2005, 02:55:16 AM »

It's wonderful that you are a classicist.  I do appreciate the Latin language, but I fail to see the relevance of it here.  If you were quoting Saint Augustine for example, using the Latin text would make sense. 

As for the Latin translation of the Creed being correct, where pray tell does one find Deum de Deo in the Greek version? 
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« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2005, 03:10:53 AM »

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As for the Latin translation of the Creed being correct, where pray tell does one find Deum de Deo in the Greek version?

Right before pos ek potos; it goes: theon ek theou, pos ek potos, theon alethinon ek theou alethinou. This is paralleled by the Latin, "Deum de deo, lumen de lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero" (God from God, light from light, true God from true God). That's only the Nicene Creed, though.

The expanded creed at Constantinople I does not include it (the Latin includes it for some reason, but as "Deum ex Deo" which is closer to the Greek original at Nicaea).

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« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2005, 04:43:08 AM »

Satan puffs us up in order to throw us down. God humbles us in order to raise us and glorify us in His Son, Jesus Christ.
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« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2005, 10:20:16 AM »

"It's a mystery why they call it the 'history' Channel"ÂÂ  Cheesy

well, the victors is orthodoxy itself. orthodoxy/catholicism were the victors circa 370-400 and later. because in 600 islam swept up most of the original and fundemental arians(jesus=man=great prophet)islam(mohammed=man=great prophet). pretty easy to see were most of the arians went. had orthodoxy embraced arius and the eusebius' then islam may not have even come to be, had orthodoxy not overtured the council in 754 that forbade icons....maybe islam would not had have spread as much as it had. I see that orthodoxy and catholicism were made so darn confusing (and exclusive to clergy) that half the world was lost to islam in half the time it took christianity to spread.

the jesus seminars are one thing but these guys www.sabbatarian.com are very conservative. they believe EVERYTHING THE RCC AND THE EOC believe in regards to social issues.....abstinence, no abortion, no gay marriage. they lay down the law. yet I think they just feel that christianity was hellenized WAY TOO MUCH.

I can plainly see, just like anyone with common sense, that trying to sell a religion that only prays to one god for everything, would be difficult if not impossible. How can you ask hundreds of thousands of people that have been praying to mulitple gods for hundrends of years to stop it.

people probably were wondering what happened to my god of wine, love, poor, sick, good crops, etc......isn't their a saint for these things, too? can you all see where I am coming from?


how does this sound?
to me christianity is more about this:the true monotheistic messianic faith, than this:the trinity.


I really don't mean to debate...............I just want the truth....I have just about had it with "mystery", and fantasy.....I really just want the good news of the messiah yahshua.



You have already seen the truth, you have unfettered access to it; it is in the Nicene Creed, it is in the Councils, it is in the Church, it is in the writings of the fathers and the traditions of the Apostles and even in Holy Scripture. You just simply choose to reject it. Nothing we say to you will convince you of the truth. My pearls will stay in my pocket.

... Saint Arius.. thats a good one. Isn't he the patron saint of the Jehovah Witnesses?
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« Reply #42 on: August 03, 2005, 12:27:59 AM »

... Saint Arius.. thats a good one. Isn't he the patron saint of the Jehovah Witnesses?

He's just lucky St. Nicholas isn't here to clock him like he did his namesake.
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« Reply #43 on: August 03, 2005, 10:25:17 AM »

  I noticed in the Masai Creed there was no mention of believing in One Holy Apostolic Church.  Was that part left out on purpose?                          Juliana
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