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Author Topic: Elijah and Enoch  (Read 4107 times) Average Rating: 0
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coptic orthodox boy
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« on: July 26, 2005, 10:04:25 AM »

IC XC NIKA
May our Good Lord give you all His peace.
When these two saints and prophets were taken up to by the Good Lord, what happened to them?  Did they experience Paradise?  If they did, wouldn't that contradict the entire Christian message (that is Christ died and rose from the dead to bring us to Paradise).  If they didn't enter Paradise, where and what exactly happened to them?
in Christ, a pupil
shawn
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« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2005, 10:43:36 AM »

Sean:

Greetings in Christ!

It is my understanding that the souls of those who repose in Christ, and also those such as Enoch and Elijah, experience a "foretaste" of Paradise; it is not Paradise in its fulness, per se, because the Kingdom of God will only be completely consumated when Christ returns.  I don't believe it contradicts the Christian message at all.  Hope this helps.

In Christ,

Michael
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« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2005, 11:33:26 AM »

Quote
Sean:

Greetings in Christ!

It is my understanding that the souls of those who repose in Christ, and also those such as Enoch and Elijah, experience a "foretaste" of Paradise; it is not Paradise in its fulness, per se, because the Kingdom of God will only be completely consumated when Christ returns.  I don't believe it contradicts the Christian message at all.  Hope this helps.

In Christ,

Michael

Hi Michael and welcome...
Enoch and Elijah did not die.....
quote///
There were two saints of the Old Testament who did not die: Enoch was translated,
 and he was not found; and Elijah went up in the fiery chariot.
Therefore, they will come back as the two witnesses and preach against Antichrist.
READ MORE...
http://www.holy-transfiguration.org/library_en/mod_signs7.html


quote///
Just as the Holy Baptizer of Christ, John, heralded the first coming of Christ,
 when He came meekly, as a servant,
so the glorious Elias will herald the second coming of Christ,
 when He will come in al power and majesty, as a King, swiftly, from the Mount of Olives.
 The church knows that both Enoch and Elias will come back to the earth in it's very last days,
 and preach Christ.
 They will be slain by the antichrist,
and lay in the streets for three days,
 after which the Lord will come and usher in the New, unwaning age.
READ MORE....
http://www.orthodox.net/redeeming/redeeming.02.12.html

quote///
Antichrist will allow men everything,
 as long as they "fall down and worship him"; and the whole world will submit to him.
Then there will appear the two righteous men,
 who will fearlessly preach the faith and accuse Antichrist.
According to Church tradition,
 they are the two Prophets of the Old Testament,
 Elijah and Enoch,
who did not taste of death,
 but will taste it now for three days,
 and in three days they must rise.
 Their death will call forth the great rejoicing of Antichrist and his servants.
 Their resurrection will plunge them into great confusion and terror.
 Then, the end of the world will come.......
READ MORE.......
http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/library/st_john_maximovich/on_the_last_judgment.htm

quote///
The evil and false religion in the world will culminate in the reign of Antichrist,
 a world ruler who will seem to bring peace out of the world disorder and will seem to be Christ come again to earth,
 reigning from the restored Temple in Jerusalem.

But there will be those who see through the deception.
  In particular,
two Old Testament prophets who did not die will return to earth — Elijah to convert the Jews, and Enoch to preach to the other nations.
 The short reign of Antichrist — only three and a half years - will end in new disorders and wars,
in the midst of which Christ Himself will come from heaven,
 preceded by the sign of the Cross,
and this world will be consumed by fire and totally renewed,
 at the same time that the bodies of the dead will arise from the tomb and be rejoined to their souls in order to stand before God's final judgment.
 Now, with this general background of the events of the last times, let us look at the prophecies regarding Russia.
READ MORE...
http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/orthodox/orthodox_advices_seraphim_rose_the_end_of_the_world.htm

quote///
"The prophets Enoch and Elijah will come from heaven,
 and they, too,
 will explain to all the people and cry out: 'This is Antichrist, do not believe him.'
 And he will kill them, but they will resurrect and fly into heaven.
READ MORE..
http://www.rocor.org.au/stjohntheforerunnerchurch/articles/way-lavrenty.html

IX
helen
Lord have mercy on me a sinner

Sorry to both Sean and Michael......Shawn I didn't realise you asked the question....Again sorry

Also your not new here....Smiley
Im seeing things....better get some sleep.
Glory be to our Lord Jesus Christ.
IX
helen
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« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2005, 11:56:38 AM »

Sean:

Greetings in Christ!

It is my understanding that the souls of those who repose in Christ, and also those such as Enoch and Elijah, experience a "foretaste" of Paradise; it is not Paradise in its fulness, per se, because the Kingdom of God will only be completely consumated when Christ returns.  I don't believe it contradicts the Christian message at all.  Hope this helps.

In Christ,

Michael

â€Â  Irini nem ehmot â€Â

Okay, I had always thought that Paradise and the Kingdom of God (i.e. Heaven) were two distinctly different places.  Further, I was also under the impression that now (well, after Christ's death, ressurection and ascention), Paradise was opened and all the souls of the just would go there.  They would not enter Heaven until after the final Judgement.  If we take a look at what Christ said to the thief on the cross: "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43).  He makes the distinction from the Kingdom of Heaven which He preached about during His ministry.

Prayers please.
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« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2005, 12:30:39 PM »

IC XC NIKA
May our Good Lord give you all His peace,
I'm still rather confused. 
1.Enoch and Elijah's remains are not on this planet, they are somewhere ( I would guess Paradise).
2.Both were taken up by God too...and experienced...before Christ came (the "..." shows I am not sure at the moment where and what happened to them).
3.Do they (as well as our holy Mother, the Holy Theotokos, St. Mary) enjoy their glorified bodies now?
Sorry, I'm slow with theolgical matters.
in Christ,
shawn
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« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2005, 01:19:14 PM »

Greetings in Christ All:

I wasn't implying that Enoch and Elijah died..however, now that I look at it, the wording in my first reply was a bit awkward.  They were indeed translated into heaven.  Furthermore, I don't think Paradise is so much a "place" as it is a "state of being." - it is open now, it was opened after the Resurrection as you stated, Cephas. I believe the Kingdom of Heaven is present wherever Christ reigns.  Thus, the Kingdom of Heaven is present in the Church - though again, not in its consumated fulness, which will happen at the Second Coming of the Lord.  As far as exactly "where" Enoch and Elijah went, I cannot say, other than heaven.  I simply know that they were taken, body and soul, to be in God's presence, insofar as they could bear it.  Perhaps a priest on this forum could give us laity a more precise answer.

In Christ,

Michael
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« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2005, 04:43:47 PM »

IC XC NIKA
May our Good Lord give you all His peace.
When these two saints and prophets were taken up to by the Good Lord, what happened to them?ÂÂ  Did they experience Paradise?ÂÂ  If they did, wouldn't that contradict the entire Christian message (that is Christ died and rose from the dead to bring us to Paradise).ÂÂ  If they didn't enter Paradise, where and what exactly happened to them?
in Christ, a pupil
shawn

Well, I don't know about Enoch, but Elijah DID NOT go to Heaven. He remained on Earth. Maybe he is still alive.(just speculating..)
Shortly: We DO NOT know what happened to them.

Of course, someone could scream heresy! I will show you, that the Fathers, say that Ejijah did not ascend into heaven.

Lets see the English Translation, shall we?

2 Kings 2:11
11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

This is NOT correct! The ORIGINAL Greek version says : Elijah went up by a whirlwind AS into heaven..

Greek Text:
«Και εγένετο αυτών πορευομένων, επορεύοντο και ελάλουν   (Ηλίας και Ελισσαιέ)· και ιδού άρμα πυρός και ίπποι πυρός και διέστειλεν ανά μέσον αμφοτέρων και ανελήφθη Ηλιού εν συσσεισμώ   *ΩΣ*  εις τον ουρανόν»  (Δ’ Βασ. Î’’ 11).


"AS" means that he didint REALLY go to Heaven but it was "LIKE" he did.

Of course, someone could say I don't know what I'm saying.
The thing is, that St. Athanasius the Great, says the same at 2nd Homily, about the Ascension.
I also have the Greek text of that one.
This is also said by Theofylaktos of Bulgaria
Also by Gregory of Thesaloniki in his 1st homily on the Asscension.

I have a whole study about this in Greek, which is written by Dimitrios Panagopoulos, a theologist which was a close friend of Ft. John Romanides.

If you can find that Homily of St. Athanasius, in English, you will find out more.

This is the Greek Text of St. Athanasius the Great:
---------------------------------------------------------------------

«Συ δε μοι λοιπόν, αγαπητέ, της λέξεως την ακρίβειαν σκόπησον, της ΩΣ, και μη σε διαλάθη συλλαβής  Γραφικής περιουσία  κ α ι  δύναμις (της μικρής συλλαβής «ΩΣ» δηλαδή) · μηδέ τη της λέξεως παραδρομή (το ανελήφθη δηλαδή) τω Δεσπότη τον οικέτην νομίσης ισότιμον· ΟΥ ΓΑΡ ΕΙΣ ΟΥΡΑΝΟΝ ΗΛΙΑΣ ΑΝΕΡΧΕΤΑΙ, ουδέ διαδραμών το στερέωμα, τοις εκείσε χωρίοις αυλίζεται· άλλ’ άκουσον τι φησίν ο αναγών· «Εν δε τω ανάγειν Κύριον τον Ηλίαν ΩΣ εις τον ουρανόν· ιδού μικρά λέξις (το ΩΣ)  έστησε τον Ηλίαν προς τα άνω φερόμενον· αρκεί γαρ τω ÃŽÂ ροφήτη τιμηθήναι τω τύπω· προ γαρ του Δεσπότου τον οικέτην ουρανός ουχ υποδέχεται· ουδείς γαρ αναβέβηκεν εις τον Ουρανόν, ειμή ο Υιός του ανθρώπου ο ων εν τω Ουρανώ·  ετηρείτο γαρ τη των ανθρώπων απαρχή δια τον των ανθρώπων ÃŽÂ οιητήν ο Ουρανός. Ούτω μεν ουν τοις περί τον Ενώχ και Ηλίαν ο Θεός αγαθή ελπίδι εύφρανε τους ανθρώπους, δι’ ων ανθρώποις ούσι τον του αέρος δρόμον ιππήλατον ήπλωσε» (Λογ. Î’’ εις την Ανάληψιν).

Of course, scripture (NT) says the same, if we pay attention to it:

John 3:13
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

That is, none before Christ, ascended into heaven.





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« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2005, 07:36:33 PM »

Tom that is simply amazing.

Here is Brentons Online (English) rendition of the verse:

IV Kings 2, 11. And it came to pass as they were going, they went on talking; and, behold, a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and it separated between them both; and Eliu was taken up in a whirlwind as it were into heaven.
( http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/Kings%20IV/Kings%20IV%20(II%20Kings)%20LXX.htm )


Here is Apostoliki Diakonia Greek tekst.

Βασιλειών Δ΄ 2, 11. καὶ ἐγένετο αὐτῶν πορευομένων, ἐπορεύοντο καὶ ἐλάλουν· καὶ ἰδοὺ ἅρμα πυρὸς καὶ ἵπποι πυρὸς καὶ διέστειλαν ἀνὰ μέσον ἀμφοτέρων, καὶ ἀνελήφθη ᾿Ηλιοὺ ἐν συσσεισμῷ ὡς εἰς τὸν οὐρανόν.
( http://www.apostoliki-diakonia.gr/bible/old_testament/index.html )


What is going on?
Where did Ilija go?
And where did Enoch go?


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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2005, 07:47:48 PM »

Thanks! Panagopoulos work IS amazing...I hadn't notice this, before I got my hands on his work...

We do not know where they went. They could be alive today somewhere...praying..or not.
The only thing WE DO know, is that they did not go to heaven.

Orthodoxy is full of mysteries...no?  Smiley


Tom that is simply amazing.

Here is Brentons Online (English) rendition of the verse:

IV Kings 2, 11. And it came to pass as they were going, they went on talking; and, behold, a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and it separated between them both; and Eliu was taken up in a whirlwind as it were into heaven.
( http://www.ecmarsh.com/lxx/Kings%20IV/Kings%20IV%20(II%20Kings)%20LXX.htm )


Here is Apostoliki Diakonia Greek tekst.

Βασιλειών Δ΄ 2, 11. καὶ ἐγένετο αὐτῶν πορευομένων, ἐπορεύοντο καὶ ἐλάλουν· καὶ ἰδοὺ ἅρμα πυρὸς καὶ ἵπποι πυρὸς καὶ διέστειλαν ἀνὰ μέσον ἀμφοτέρων, καὶ ἀνελήφθη ᾿Ηλιοὺ ἐν συσσεισμῷ ὡς εἰς τὸν οὐρανόν.
( http://www.apostoliki-diakonia.gr/bible/old_testament/index.html )


What is going on?
Where did Ilija go?
And where did Enoch go?



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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2005, 08:06:55 PM »

Interesting thing is with Enoch also, English translation is different from LXX.

Genesis 5, 24.
(KJV) And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
(NIV)  Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
(YLT) And Enoch walketh habitually with God, and he is not, for God hath taken him.

Brenton's LXX:
And Enoch was well-pleasing to God, and was not found, because God translated him.

Greek LXX:
καὶ εὐηρέστησεν ᾿Ενὼχ τῷ Θεῷ καὶ οὐχ εὑρίσκετο, ὅτι μετέθηκεν αὐτὸν ὁ Θεός.


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« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2005, 08:24:35 PM »

Very interesting, Tom. I can't read Greek very well, so I'll have to give you the benefit of the doubt as to the original text.  I've come across Orthodox theologians on both sides of the fence concerning Elijah's whereabouts.  Does anyone know if opinion varies among the early Fathers on this, or are they consistent on one side or the other?  I don't see this as a matter of doctrine essential to salvation, but it is an interesting study nonetheless.

In Christ,

Michael
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« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2005, 08:46:36 PM »

Very interesting, Tom. I can't read Greek very well, so I'll have to give you the benefit of the doubt as to the original text.ÂÂ  I've come across Orthodox theologians on both sides of the fence concerning Elijah's whereabouts.ÂÂ  Does anyone know if opinion varies among the early Fathers on this, or are they consistent on one side or the other?ÂÂ  I don't see this as a matter of doctrine essential to salvation, but it is an interesting study nonetheless.

In Christ,

Michael

Well, the ones I know, say that Elijah was not taken to heaven...but his "taking" with the Chariot, symbolize Christ's Ascension. I have not read any with the opposite opinion...( I mean Fathers..)

It is just an interesting topic. Of course it doesn't have anything to do with salvation..

This is the text from St. Gregory Of Thesaloniki:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
(1st homily on the Ascension)
 ÃƒÆ’‚«ÎÏƒÏ€ÎµÏ δε αναστάσεις προ της του Κυρίου αναστάσεως πολλαί γεγόνασι, (εξ), ούτω και πολλαί αναλήψεις προ της αυτού αναλήψεως· και Ιερεμίαν γαρ τον ÃŽÂ ροφήτην ανέλαβε ÃŽÂ νεύμα, και τον Αββακούμ Άγγελος, και τον Ενώχ ανέλαβεν ο Θεός· μάλιστα δε των άλλων ο Ηλίας άρματι πυρός αναληφθείς αναγέγραπται· αλλ’ ουδ’ ούτος (ο Ηλίας)  υπερέβη την περίγειον λήξιν, αλλ’ οίόν τις μετάθεσις ην η εκάστου τούτων ανάληψις, από γης αίρουσα και των περί γην ουκ εξάγουσα· καθάπερ και οι αναστάντες εκείνοι πάλιν εις την γην υπέστρεψαν, τελευτήσαντες άπαντες» (Λογ. α’ εις την Ανάληψιν).

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« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2005, 10:24:30 PM »

IC XC NIKA
tOm_dR
The Lord give you His peace,
Thank your for your knowledge.
What about the Holy Theotokos?   Does she now enjoy the glorified body as our Lord Jesus Christ.  I'm a former Roman Catholic, and I still believe that Mary was assumed (body as well as spirit) into Paradise (the difference with Catholics is that it must be believed for salvation; while with Orthodox it is a pious belief).  Or, is this just a "we're not exactly sure" type thing?
in Christ, your pupil
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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2005, 05:37:25 AM »

IC XC NIKA
tOm_dR
The Lord give you His peace,
Thank your for your knowledge.
What about the Holy Theotokos?   Does she now enjoy the glorified body as our Lord Jesus Christ.  I'm a former Roman Catholic, and I still believe that Mary was assumed (body as well as spirit) into Paradise (the difference with Catholics is that it must be believed for salvation; while with Orthodox it is a pious belief).  Or, is this just a "we're not exactly sure" type thing?
in Christ, your pupil
shawn

Well, I believe this also (and was never a Latin..), as well as many elders of the Orthodox Church, Saints and the Glorified/deified. But it is not an "Official" doctrine.
AFAIK there is no Glorified/Saint that says otherwise...

Thank not me, but Panagopoulos for his study. I don't know THAT MUCH , really, I just like to dig up stuff! Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2005, 07:40:02 AM »

Well, I don't know about Enoch, but Elijah DID NOT go to Heaven. He remained on Earth. Maybe he is still alive.(just speculating..)
Shortly: We DO NOT know what happened to them.
here in Lebanon Mar Elias (St. Elijah) is one of the most famous saints, there are so many miracles and appearances he's done, as many as the Virgin Mary.
Many will tell you that he's here and alive ( even some muslims and druze!)
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« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2005, 08:21:14 AM »

â€Â  Irini nem ehmot â€Â

Okay, I had always thought that Paradise and the Kingdom of God (i.e. Heaven) were two distinctly different places.  Further, I was also under the impression that now (well, after Christ's death, ressurection and ascention), Paradise was opened and all the souls of the just would go there.  They would not enter Heaven until after the final Judgement.  If we take a look at what Christ said to the thief on the cross: "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43).  He makes the distinction from the Kingdom of Heaven which He preached about during His ministry.

Prayers please.

Paradise in the literal sense as you see it would refer to the Garden of Eden. Now this could be plausable except for the fact that there is a flaming sword and a Seraphim guarding the entrance to Eden. This was designed to keep man out. However, I can also see another point that the moment we die, our bodies and spirit become separate so we aren't really man per se. But i'm just rambling. Oh, and for my personal views, I was always taught that when a person dies, they receive a taste of the possible place they are destined to be sent to (e.g. heaven or hell).

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« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2005, 08:22:39 AM »

There are also rumours that St John the Theologian is living as a hermit monk on Mount Athos Grin
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« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2005, 08:31:20 AM »

There are also rumours that St John the Theologian is living as a hermit monk on Mount Athos Grin

Goodness me, if that were true he'd have to have the longest beard in a place full of long beards. I'm sure someone would have noticed him by now.

On a more serious note, I would have thought that this was a fairly daft myth to believe in given that I've visited St. John's basilica in Ephesus, beneath which he is meant to have been buried.

James
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« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2005, 08:37:11 AM »

Quote///
Answer 7

The Holy Prophet Elias was taken up from the earth in a fiery chariot,
 hence, he did not die a natural death,
 as it is wont for all flesh to do.
 He shares this distinction with Enoch,
 of whom the scripture states: And he walked with God,
and was seen no more: because God took him." (Genesis 5:24).
 Enoch and Elias abide in the heavens with two others who have flesh,
 albeit in a perfected state, namely, Jesus Christ the God-man,
who deified his flesh by rising from the dead and ascending into heaven,
 and His most pure mother,
 who died as anyone else must, but was taken up into the heavens by her son.

quote///
Answer 9

Just as the Holy Baptizer of Christ, John, heralded the first coming of Christ,
 when He came meekly, as a servant, so the glorious Elias will herald the second coming of Christ,
 when He will come in al power and majesty, as a King, swiftly, from the Mount of Olives.
 The church knows that both Enoch and Elias will come back to the earth in it's very last days, and preach Christ.
 They will be slain by the antichrist, and lay in the streets for three days,
after which the Lord will come and usher in the New, unwaning age.

The Jews of Jesus' day certainly understood this about Elias,
although they were confused,
 and thought that perhaps Christ himself was Elias: "When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi,
 he asked his disciples,
 saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? {14} And they said,
 Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. " (Mat 16:13-14)

http://www.orthodox.net/redeeming/redeeming.02.12.html

IX
helen

Hope that helps about Prophets Enoch and Elijah........
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« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2005, 08:52:58 AM »

I also  remember reading Elder Paisios prophecy .......Year 1992 or 94,.He said that Elijah(Elias)is now on earth and ''sharpening his sickle'' .....If I can find the prophecy I will post it here...


 Lord have mercy on me a sinner,
IX
helen
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« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2005, 09:57:15 AM »


On a more serious note, I would have thought that this was a fairly daft myth to believe in given that I've visited St. John's basilica in Ephesus, beneath which he is meant to have been buried.


The tradition is that he asked his disciples to place him in the tomb while he was still alive, and when they went back the next day to check on him they found the tomb to be empty. As is the case with Panagia, there are no relics of St John the Theologian Smiley

John
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« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2005, 10:18:28 AM »

The tradition is that he asked his disciples to place him in the tomb while he was still alive, and when they went back the next day to check on him they found the tomb to be empty. As is the case with Panagia, there are no relics of St John the Theologian Smiley

John

I hadn't heard that tradition but, having visited the basilica (which incidentally has a fantastic baptismal pool) I am aware that nobody actually knows where on the site St. John's tomb is. Maybe his relics are still there but have yet to be found?

James
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« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2005, 10:39:44 AM »

I also  remember reading Elder Paisios prophecy .......Year 1992 or 94,.He said that Elijah(Elias)is now on earth and ''sharpening his sickle'' .....If I can find the prophecy I will post it here...


 Lord have mercy on me a sinner,
IX
helen

Well, it doesn't say that he is on earth...but it says about the sharpening part..
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« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2005, 10:43:22 AM »

Well, I believe this also (and was never a Latin..), as well as many elders of the Orthodox Church, Saints and the Glorified/deified. But it is not an "Official" doctrine.
AFAIK there is no Glorified/Saint that says otherwise...

Thank not me, but Panagopoulos for his study. I don't know THAT MUCH , really, I just like to dig up stuff! Smiley


I'll have to add that, the Orthodox tradition is that the Theotokos DIED, and then she was resurrected and ascended to Heaven.

I think the Latin doctrine says that she ascended without diying? Or am I wrong?
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« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2005, 10:45:16 AM »

I hadn't heard that tradition but, having visited the basilica (which incidentally has a fantastic baptismal pool) I am aware that nobody actually knows where on the site St. John's tomb is. Maybe his relics are still there but have yet to be found?

James

This is yet another "unofficial" teaching of the Church, taken from oral paradosis..Very well known in Greece...
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« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2005, 10:47:37 AM »

There are also rumours that St John the Theologian is living as a hermit monk on Mount Athos Grin

Wel, I think that is stretching it  too much  Grin
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« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2005, 10:53:09 AM »

Well, St. Athanasius says , Elijah did not go to Heaven...
And a friend of mine, has found a part of the OT, mentioning that Elijah sent a letter to a King of Juda...This King supposedly lived AFTER the Chariot incident.. I havent checked it though. Could be wrong.

Saying that "Elijah will come" could easily mean that he will make himself known to us..

Quote///
Answer 7

The Holy Prophet Elias was taken up from the earth in a fiery chariot,
 hence, he did not die a natural death,
 as it is wont for all flesh to do.
 He shares this distinction with Enoch,
 of whom the scripture states: And he walked with God,
and was seen no more: because God took him." (Genesis 5:24).
 Enoch and Elias abide in the heavens with two others who have flesh,
 albeit in a perfected state, namely, Jesus Christ the God-man,
who deified his flesh by rising from the dead and ascending into heaven,
 and His most pure mother,
 who died as anyone else must, but was taken up into the heavens by her son.

quote///
Answer 9

Just as the Holy Baptizer of Christ, John, heralded the first coming of Christ,
 when He came meekly, as a servant, so the glorious Elias will herald the second coming of Christ,
 when He will come in al power and majesty, as a King, swiftly, from the Mount of Olives.
 The church knows that both Enoch and Elias will come back to the earth in it's very last days, and preach Christ.
 They will be slain by the antichrist, and lay in the streets for three days,
after which the Lord will come and usher in the New, unwaning age.

The Jews of Jesus' day certainly understood this about Elias,
although they were confused,
 and thought that perhaps Christ himself was Elias: "When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi,
 he asked his disciples,
 saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? {14} And they said,
 Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. " (Mat 16:13-14)

http://www.orthodox.net/redeeming/redeeming.02.12.html

IX
helen

Hope that helps about Prophets Enoch and Elijah........

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« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2005, 12:52:29 PM »

From the GOARCH website, courtesy of Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline:

"Elias was suddenly snatched away by a fiery chariot in the year 895 B.C., and he ascended as though into heaven, whither God most certainly translated him alive, as He did Enoch (Gen. 5:24; IV Kings 2: 11). But from thence also, after seven years, by means of an epistle he reproached Joram, the son of Josaphat, as it is written: "And there came a message in writing to him from Elias the Prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the way," and so forth (II Chron. 21:12). According to the opinion of the majority of the interpreters, this came to pass either through his disciple Elisseus, or through another Prophet when Elias appeared to them, even as he appeared on Mount Tabor to the disciples of Christ (see Aug. 6)."
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« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2005, 12:59:52 PM »

IC XC NIKA
tOm_dR,
The Lord give you His peace,
Hmm, that's a good question.  I think the RCc remains open about this; in that whether she died or not doesn't really matter.  What matters to them is that she was assumed.  However, I asked my RC FOC when I was Catholic, and he said, "We don't know if she died or not."  I read the Catechism like 5 years ago, so I can hardly recall if that is the official teaching or not.
in Christ,
shawn

I'll have to add that, the Orthodox tradition is that the Theotokos DIED, and then she was resurrected and ascended to Heaven.

I think the Latin doctrine says that she ascended without diying? Or am I wrong?
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« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2005, 02:29:25 AM »


I'll have to add that, the Orthodox tradition is that the Theotokos DIED, and then she was resurrected and ascended to Heaven.

I think the Latin doctrine says that she ascended without diying? Or am I wrong?


The feast day of the Dormition of Mary was celebrated in the church long before the schism. The Catholic church's recent doctrinal statement on the Assumption of Mary is vague enough to allow for people to interpret it both ways, that she was assumed either having died or not having died, yet Catholics constantly claim that their development of doctrine makes things clearer, not more vague Huh

John
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« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2005, 05:46:31 AM »

The problem with the Dormition for both Orthodox and non-Orthodox is that we find so many different traditional stories about it that it is impossible to say which is true. We prefer transposition or metastasis to assumption btw.

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« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2005, 06:20:52 AM »

From the GOARCH website, courtesy of Holy Transfiguration Monastery in Brookline:

"Elias was suddenly snatched away by a fiery chariot in the year 895 B.C., and he ascended as though into heaven, whither God most certainly translated him alive, as He did Enoch (Gen. 5:24; IV Kings 2: 11). But from thence also, after seven years, by means of an epistle he reproached Joram, the son of Josaphat, as it is written: "And there came a message in writing to him from Elias the Prophet, saying, Thus saith the Lord God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the way," and so forth (II Chron. 21:12). According to the opinion of the majority of the interpreters, this came to pass either through his disciple Elisseus, or through another Prophet when Elias appeared to them, even as he appeared on Mount Tabor to the disciples of Christ (see Aug. 6)."


Thanks! Very Helpfull!
Do you have a link?
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« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2005, 10:22:19 AM »

Tom:

http://www.goarch.org/en/chapel/saints.asp?contentid=135
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