Author Topic: Heretics who oppose St. Paul  (Read 945 times)

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Offline wgw

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Heretics who oppose St. Paul
« on: December 26, 2015, 11:05:45 PM »
I've recently encountered an organized group of heretics who reject St. Paul based on firmly held fallacious arguments, who are quite abusive, from the "Jesus' Words Only" movement.  Has anyone any experience with them?
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Offline Luke

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Re: Heretics who oppose St. Paul
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2015, 11:38:55 PM »
No.  This is new to me.

Offline wgw

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Re: Heretics who oppose St. Paul
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2015, 11:58:36 PM »
Among their more humorous absurdities is the idea that Matthew 28:19 must be a forgery, because on Rabinnical Hebrew translation of it from the 14th century and Eusebius of Caesarea read differently from all of the Greek manuscripts (therefore, the evil Catholic Church under the command of the dark lord Emperor Palpatine Constantine must have destroyed the originals).
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Re: Heretics who oppose St. Paul
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2015, 12:16:20 AM »
So... St. Paul was a corrupting figure? Or what about St. James or St. Peter? Are their letters used, or are they considered forgeries, non-Scripture, or something? Since the Apostles primarily used the Greek Septuagint, do they use it as well for their Old Testament? Or do they say something like that it was the translators and copyists who used it, and originally it was from the Hebrew version (except the Aramaic words recorded)?

Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Heretics who oppose St. Paul
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2015, 12:46:55 AM »
I've seen some headless "Christian" liberals looking down on St. Paul for his views on homosexuality (hah, Jesus didn't say anything explicit against it, so it must be OK), and some Jews and Muslims ascribing the "corruption of Mosaic Law" to him.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Heretics who oppose St. Paul
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2015, 02:50:02 AM »
I've recently encountered an organized group of heretics who reject St. Paul based on firmly held fallacious arguments, who are quite abusive, from the "Jesus' Words Only" movement.  Has anyone any experience with them?

Haven't heard of "Jesus' Words Only" before, although I've been aware of some "Messianic Jewish" groups that reject St. Paul for Judaizing reasons (because he denied the necessity of circumcision and the dietary laws, etc.)

The Paul-rejectors are in many ways on the opposite end of the theological spectrum from Marcionism ("Only Paul really understood Jesus, the other apostles didn't get it") and Ultradispensationalism ("The other apostles belonged to a previous dispensation, so all we need is Paul now").
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 02:55:57 AM by Minnesotan »
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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: Heretics who oppose St. Paul
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2015, 05:05:52 AM »
I've recently encountered an organized group of heretics who reject St. Paul based on firmly held fallacious arguments, who are quite abusive, from the "Jesus' Words Only" movement.  Has anyone any experience with them?

Yes, I have experienced these guys before. I posted about them previously. Some non-orthodox Christians believe Paul made Christianity, and that Jesus and the Apostles taught Judaism.
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Offline sestir

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Re: Heretics who oppose St. Paul
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2015, 10:42:16 AM »
Among their more humorous absurdities is the idea that Matthew 28:19 must be a forgery, because on Rabinnical Hebrew translation of it from the 14th century and Eusebius of Caesarea read differently from all of the Greek manuscripts (therefore, the evil Catholic Church under the command of the dark lord Emperor Palpatine Constantine must have destroyed the originals).

The second part of verse 19 looks like it could be a piece of commentary and/or a marginal note that found its way into the text when an authoritative exemplar was copied several times.

Eusebius uses a shorter form "go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name" 17 times according to Wieland Willker's textual commentary of Matthew. It can be examplified from Historia Ecclesiastica III.5 ... (translation by Arthur Cushman McGiffert)

Quote
But the rest of the apostles, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went unto all nations to preach the Gospel, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, "Go and make disciples of all the nations in my name." But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella.
Quote
τῶν τε λοιπῶν ἀποστόλων μυρία εἰς θάνατον ἐπιβεβουλευμένων καὶ τῆς μὲν Ἰουδαίας γῆς ἀπεληλαμένων, ἐπὶ δὲ τῇ τοῦ κηρύγματος διδασκαλίᾳ τὴν εἰς σύμπαντα τὰ ἔθνη στειλαμένων πορείαν σὺν δυνάμει τοῦ Χριστοῦ, φήσαντος αὐτοῖς ‘πορευθέντες μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί μου,’ οὐ μὴν ἀλλὰ καὶ τοῦ λαοῦ τῆς ἐν Ἱεροσολύμοις ἐκκλησίας κατά τινα χρησμὸν τοῖς αὐτόθι δοκίμοις δἰ ἀποκαλύψεως ἐκδοθέντα πρὸ τοῦ πολέμου μεταναστῆναι τῆς πόλεως καί τινα τῆς Περαίας πόλιν οἰκεῖν κεκελευσμένου, Πέλλαν αὐτὴν ὀνομάζουσιν

If we assume Matthew 28:19 originally read like Eusebius quoted it (except perhaps it was in Hebrew), then a reader might want to know how someone is made a disciple in Jesus' name in practice, and it would make sense to note in the margin that it is through baptism.

However, since the trinitarian formula is the reading of all reasonably ancient manuscripts, few if any modern editions will ditch it.  ;)