Author Topic: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?  (Read 3534 times)

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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2015, 08:21:49 PM »
Yes

The Muslims claim to worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. There is only one such God and he is the God of Israel. They, like the Jews are mistaken about who he really is though. Many of the Church fathers saw Islam as a christian heresy.
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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2015, 08:43:34 PM »
I don't really know if the Islamic Allah and the Trinity are the same. Jesus Christ as the Godhead and founder of the Apostolic Church
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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2015, 09:58:15 PM »
841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm
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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2015, 12:23:38 AM »
I'm confused; how many Gods are there?
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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2015, 04:08:25 AM »
What is the truth to the matter?
What do you think?
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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2015, 04:11:56 PM »
I don't think we can come to a satisfactory answer on that topic.

For us, though, I don't think we could come to a satisfactory answer on that subject. One could tell a perennialist "everyone is looking to the Absolute in the end" (which is pretty unorthodox), or to a hyperdox "not even the EOC and the RCC worship the same God! the Filioque, Francis-vicared god? bah!", as I've already read.
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Offline homedad76

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2015, 05:12:59 AM »
When a Muslim (or a Jew) prays to God there is only one God that hears them.  They may be fundamentally wrong about Him theologically but it seems contrary to the nature of God that He would reject or ignore the sincere prayers simply because they have some theological facts wrong.  If a Jew prays to God for the safety of his family are you really prepared to say he is shouting needlessly in to the void?
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2015, 09:47:40 AM »
I'm confused; how many Gods are there?

Good question! http://benstanhope.blogspot.se/2013/06/what-do-we-mean-by-monotheism.html

A quick summary ?

The word "Monotheism" was coined by the 17th Century Cambridge Platonists in their debates with atheism. OT scholars have since taken it out of that context and attempted to force it onto the OT in ways that don't scan with the findings of scholars of the rest of the West Semitic religious milieu. Statements about "sons of God" in the LXX version of Deuteronomy 32:8 or the "council of the gods" in Psalm 85 use identical language to that of Ugaritic texts that are accepted as speaking about multiple divine beings, not angels or metaphorical humans. "Plague and pestilence" in Habakkuk 3:5 translate the words deber and rasheph--the names of Ugaritic and Akkadian deities described in the former inscriptions at Palmyra, warlike servants at the feet of Baal just as plague and pestilence are at the feet of Yahweh in Habakkuk. Trying to explain away this language leads to a contradiction in which conservative scholars wind up equivocating the Cambridge Platonists's theos (an omnimax God of the Philosophers) with a generic sense of "god" as just a powerful supernatural being.

For the last couple of decades, Michael Heisler has been at the forefront of a movement to reconcile the interpretation of an OT that recognizes the existence of other non-angelic divine beings with a commitment to Yahweh as the Supreme Being and only proper object of worship. He's proposed describing Satan, Moloch, Baal, et al. with the terms elohim and 'nacash as sort of OT versions of the Qu'rannic djinni--possessing godlike power, but not angels and not proper subjects of worship.

I'm only beginning to learn about all this stuff, but it's pretty fascinating.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2015, 09:51:44 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2015, 03:40:07 PM »
Do you have a particular book recommendation on taht, Volnutt?
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2015, 05:55:07 PM »
When a Muslim (or a Jew) prays to God there is only one God that hears them.  They may be fundamentally wrong about Him theologically but it seems contrary to the nature of God that He would reject or ignore the sincere prayers simply because they have some theological facts wrong.  If a Jew prays to God for the safety of his family are you really prepared to say he is shouting needlessly in to the void?

A very good way to put it.

The popular, "Dr. Walter Martin, cult hunter," way of putting religious differences -- "They have a different God"; "They have a different Jesus" -- is at best rhetorical bait and at worst heresy. So as vigilant orthodox defenders of the very important concept that God is real and God is One, we have two options, as I see them: "God does not know them, he does not hear their prayers," or "They badly misunderstand God." The first is probably at least as harsh an option as the "different God" rhetoric, but at least it doesn't stray into this ridiculous unintended polytheism and subjectivism.
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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2015, 03:59:45 AM »
I'm confused; how many Gods are there?

Good question! http://benstanhope.blogspot.se/2013/06/what-do-we-mean-by-monotheism.html

A quick summary ?

The word "Monotheism" was coined by the 17th Century Cambridge Platonists in their debates with atheism. OT scholars have since taken it out of that context and attempted to force it onto the OT in ways that don't scan with the findings of scholars of the rest of the West Semitic religious milieu. Statements about "sons of God" in the LXX version of Deuteronomy 32:8 or the "council of the gods" in Psalm 85 use identical language to that of Ugaritic texts that are accepted as speaking about multiple divine beings, not angels or metaphorical humans. "Plague and pestilence" in Habakkuk 3:5 translate the words deber and rasheph--the names of Ugaritic and Akkadian deities described in the former inscriptions at Palmyra, warlike servants at the feet of Baal just as plague and pestilence are at the feet of Yahweh in Habakkuk. Trying to explain away this language leads to a contradiction in which conservative scholars wind up equivocating the Cambridge Platonists's theos (an omnimax God of the Philosophers) with a generic sense of "god" as just a powerful supernatural being.

For the last couple of decades, Michael Heisler has been at the forefront of a movement to reconcile the interpretation of an OT that recognizes the existence of other non-angelic divine beings with a commitment to Yahweh as the Supreme Being and only proper object of worship. He's proposed describing Satan, Moloch, Baal, et al. with the terms elohim and 'nacash as sort of OT versions of the Qu'rannic djinni--possessing godlike power, but not angels and not proper subjects of worship.

I'm only beginning to learn about all this stuff, but it's pretty fascinating.

Wow. Thanks.

Your summaries are always excellent.

I have a list of texts I might to have you read then summarize for me. We will work out the hourly rate.

Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2015, 04:19:33 AM »
When a Muslim (or a Jew) prays to God there is only one God that hears them.  They may be fundamentally wrong about Him theologically but it seems contrary to the nature of God that He would reject or ignore the sincere prayers simply because they have some theological facts wrong.  If a Jew prays to God for the safety of his family are you really prepared to say he is shouting needlessly in to the void?

A very good way to put it.

The popular, "Dr. Walter Martin, cult hunter," way of putting religious differences -- "They have a different God"; "They have a different Jesus" -- is at best rhetorical bait and at worst heresy. So as vigilant orthodox defenders of the very important concept that God is real and God is One, we have two options, as I see them: "God does not know them, he does not hear their prayers," or "They badly misunderstand God." The first is probably at least as harsh an option as the "different God" rhetoric, but at least it doesn't stray into this ridiculous unintended polytheism and subjectivism.

Another point to make is one of the first persons in Church history to say "they have a different God" was the heresiarch Marcion (who was speaking about the Jews). He meant it quite literally, too. Marcion had no problem with polytheism (unlike the Gnostics and later scholastics, he felt no need to trace everything back to a "first cause", and apparently thought Yahweh and the Heavenly Father to be completely independent of one another). If Marcion were alive today, he'd probably lump Muslims in with Jews as followers of the "lower God", and say that "Muslims have a different God". And then some evangelicals might applaud without realizing what he really meant by that phrase.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2015, 07:44:08 AM »
When a Muslim (or a Jew) prays to God there is only one God that hears them.  They may be fundamentally wrong about Him theologically but it seems contrary to the nature of God that He would reject or ignore the sincere prayers simply because they have some theological facts wrong.  If a Jew prays to God for the safety of his family are you really prepared to say he is shouting needlessly in to the void?

A very good way to put it.

The popular, "Dr. Walter Martin, cult hunter," way of putting religious differences -- "They have a different God"; "They have a different Jesus" -- is at best rhetorical bait and at worst heresy. So as vigilant orthodox defenders of the very important concept that God is real and God is One, we have two options, as I see them: "God does not know them, he does not hear their prayers," or "They badly misunderstand God." The first is probably at least as harsh an option as the "different God" rhetoric, but at least it doesn't stray into this ridiculous unintended polytheism and subjectivism.

Another point to make is one of the first persons in Church history to say "they have a different God" was the heresiarch Marcion (who was speaking about the Jews). He meant it quite literally, too. Marcion had no problem with polytheism (unlike the Gnostics and later scholastics, he felt no need to trace everything back to a "first cause", and apparently thought Yahweh and the Heavenly Father to be completely independent of one another). If Marcion were alive today, he'd probably lump Muslims in with Jews as followers of the "lower God", and say that "Muslims have a different God". And then some evangelicals might applaud without realizing what he really meant by that phrase.

Both you and Porter make good points. I never thought of the whole "counter-cult" spiel that way. Thanks.
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2015, 08:17:13 AM »
I'm confused; how many Gods are there?

Good question! http://benstanhope.blogspot.se/2013/06/what-do-we-mean-by-monotheism.html

A quick summary ?

The word "Monotheism" was coined by the 17th Century Cambridge Platonists in their debates with atheism. OT scholars have since taken it out of that context and attempted to force it onto the OT in ways that don't scan with the findings of scholars of the rest of the West Semitic religious milieu. Statements about "sons of God" in the LXX version of Deuteronomy 32:8 or the "council of the gods" in Psalm 85 use identical language to that of Ugaritic texts that are accepted as speaking about multiple divine beings, not angels or metaphorical humans. "Plague and pestilence" in Habakkuk 3:5 translate the words deber and rasheph--the names of Ugaritic and Akkadian deities described in the former inscriptions at Palmyra, warlike servants at the feet of Baal just as plague and pestilence are at the feet of Yahweh in Habakkuk. Trying to explain away this language leads to a contradiction in which conservative scholars wind up equivocating the Cambridge Platonists's theos (an omnimax God of the Philosophers) with a generic sense of "god" as just a powerful supernatural being.

For the last couple of decades, Michael Heisler has been at the forefront of a movement to reconcile the interpretation of an OT that recognizes the existence of other non-angelic divine beings with a commitment to Yahweh as the Supreme Being and only proper object of worship. He's proposed describing Satan, Moloch, Baal, et al. with the terms elohim and 'nacash as sort of OT versions of the Qu'rannic djinni--possessing godlike power, but not angels and not proper subjects of worship.

I'm only beginning to learn about all this stuff, but it's pretty fascinating.

Wow. Thanks.

Your summaries are always excellent.

I have a list of texts I might to have you read then summarize for me. We will work out the hourly rate.

lol, thanks.

Do you have a particular book recommendation on taht, Volnutt?

Well, like I said, my reading on this is still confined to entry level interwebs, but some of the most common sources seem to be in the bibliography here The ones that really stick out to me:

Joel Burnett "A Reassessment of Biblical Elohim"

Richard J. Clifford "The Cosmic Mountain in Canaan and the Old Testament"

Sang Youl Cho "Lesser Deities in the Ugaritic Texts and the Hebrew Bible"

Frank Moore Cross "Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic"

Esther J. Hamori "When Gods Were Men: The Embodied God in Biblical and Near Eastern Literature"

Lowell K. Handy "Among the Host of Heaven: The Syro-Palestinean Pantheon as Bureaucracy"

Heisler's journal articles are also good I'm sure, and they're all in there. But have I mentioned how much I hate it when authors cite their own Ph.D Diss? His was "The Divine Council in Second Temple Literature" for U. Madison if you some kind of ILL access.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2015, 08:28:13 AM by Volnutt »
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #18 on: December 26, 2015, 03:10:38 PM »
Gracias, Volnutt
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Offline Volnutt

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #19 on: December 26, 2015, 05:17:47 PM »
When a Muslim (or a Jew) prays to God there is only one God that hears them.  They may be fundamentally wrong about Him theologically but it seems contrary to the nature of God that He would reject or ignore the sincere prayers simply because they have some theological facts wrong.  If a Jew prays to God for the safety of his family are you really prepared to say he is shouting needlessly in to the void?

A very good way to put it.

The popular, "Dr. Walter Martin, cult hunter," way of putting religious differences -- "They have a different God"; "They have a different Jesus" -- is at best rhetorical bait and at worst heresy. So as vigilant orthodox defenders of the very important concept that God is real and God is One, we have two options, as I see them: "God does not know them, he does not hear their prayers," or "They badly misunderstand God." The first is probably at least as harsh an option as the "different God" rhetoric, but at least it doesn't stray into this ridiculous unintended polytheism and subjectivism.

Another point to make is one of the first persons in Church history to say "they have a different God" was the heresiarch Marcion (who was speaking about the Jews). He meant it quite literally, too. Marcion had no problem with polytheism (unlike the Gnostics and later scholastics, he felt no need to trace everything back to a "first cause", and apparently thought Yahweh and the Heavenly Father to be completely independent of one another). If Marcion were alive today, he'd probably lump Muslims in with Jews as followers of the "lower God", and say that "Muslims have a different God". And then some evangelicals might applaud without realizing what he really meant by that phrase.

Both you and Porter make good points. I never thought of the whole "counter-cult" spiel that way. Thanks.

Thinking about it some more, I suppose one could say that the Walter Martins of the world are alluding to 2 Corinthians 11:4.
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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2015, 06:29:36 PM »
"Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son thou art welcome. But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he had truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child? I said, Lord, thou knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek. (The Last Battle, CS Lewis)
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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2015, 10:29:16 PM »
"Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son thou art welcome. But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he had truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child? I said, Lord, thou knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek. (The Last Battle, CS Lewis)

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2015, 10:36:49 PM »
I read the Last Battle in 3rd or 4th grade and found it really tedious. I forgot everything about it pretty much as soon as I put it down.
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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2015, 11:24:07 PM »
I see this:

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/how-can-muslims-worship-the-same-god-as-christians

and this

http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/do-muslims-worship-the-same-god-catholics-do

and this

http://www.thecatholicthing.org/2015/12/17/do-muslims-and-christians-worship-the-same-god/


What is the truth to the matter?

Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox IMHO do not worship the same God as do Muslims.
They do not claim that Jesus is God, Son of God, 2nd person of the blessed Trinity.  God incarnate.
No their god is something we dont recognize, they have taken much from the bible and Torah in their writings and I consider them Heretics.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2015, 11:26:10 PM by JoeS2 »

Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2015, 03:01:10 AM »
"Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son thou art welcome. But I said, Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath's sake, it is by me that he had truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child? I said, Lord, thou knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek. (The Last Battle, CS Lewis)

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2015, 02:16:23 PM »
I see this:

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/how-can-muslims-worship-the-same-god-as-christians

and this

http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/do-muslims-worship-the-same-god-catholics-do

and this

http://www.thecatholicthing.org/2015/12/17/do-muslims-and-christians-worship-the-same-god/


What is the truth to the matter?

Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox IMHO do not worship the same God as do Muslims.
They do not claim that Jesus is God, Son of God, 2nd person of the blessed Trinity.  God incarnate.
No their god is something we dont recognize, they have taken much from the bible and Torah in their writings and I consider them Heretics.

What about the Jews? They do not claim that Jesus is God, Son of God, 2nd person of the blessed Trinity.  God incarnate.
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

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Offline vansensei

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2015, 03:17:31 PM »
Pre-Vatican II, no, but post-Vatican II because of the new theology (that recognizes all religions as salvific), yes. John Paul II (who I do not recognize as a saint) even asked St. John the Baptist to "protect Islam". It's disgusting.

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2015, 10:32:22 PM »
Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem;

Allah is never referred to as a "Father".

factorem cœli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium.

I do believe the Church and Islam can agree upon this.

Et in unum Dominum, Jesum Christum;

They do not believe "Isa" was/is Lord (Allah/God) in any way. Just a man who was a prophet.

Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula;

No, Allah can not have a human son or become human in any way. They believe it is way beneath his dignity.

Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero;

Allah is the only God.

genitum non factum, consubstantialem Patri;

Allah is one. Who is not "consubstanstial" with anything.

per quem omnia facta sunt.

Allah did not use the "Word"( Christ ) to create anything.

I could keep going, but from the statement of our own Credo ( I believe..), the very foundation of the Church's religious belief, we do not worship the Allah of Islam and they do not worship our Christ, the third person of the Holy Trinity. Our GOD.

Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2015, 11:29:46 PM »
I agree. You cannot divorce the Father from the Son and the Holy Ghost - it just does not make sense. It is not Christian. If we separate the Father from the Son, we deny the entire Holy and Undivided Trinity.

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2015, 10:52:28 AM »
When a Muslim (or a Jew) prays to God there is only one God that hears them.  They may be fundamentally wrong about Him theologically but it seems contrary to the nature of God that He would reject or ignore the sincere prayers simply because they have some theological facts wrong.  If a Jew prays to God for the safety of his family are you really prepared to say he is shouting needlessly in to the void?

A very good way to put it.

The popular, "Dr. Walter Martin, cult hunter," way of putting religious differences -- "They have a different God"; "They have a different Jesus" -- is at best rhetorical bait and at worst heresy. So as vigilant orthodox defenders of the very important concept that God is real and God is One, we have two options, as I see them: "God does not know them, he does not hear their prayers," or "They badly misunderstand God." The first is probably at least as harsh an option as the "different God" rhetoric, but at least it doesn't stray into this ridiculous unintended polytheism and subjectivism.

Plus to both posts here.

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2015, 10:54:11 AM »
I agree. You cannot divorce the Father from the Son and the Holy Ghost - it just does not make sense. It is not Christian. If we separate the Father from the Son, we deny the entire Holy and Undivided Trinity.

Many Evangelical Protestants seem to do just that, only by ignoring the Father and the Holy Spirit. So....

Offline vansensei

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2015, 01:36:06 PM »
Or outright deny the Godhead like those "Jesus-only" Pentecostals. Their logic behind it is astoundingly nonsensical.

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2015, 01:39:58 PM »
I agree. You cannot divorce the Father from the Son and the Holy Ghost - it just does not make sense. It is not Christian. If we separate the Father from the Son, we deny the entire Holy and Undivided Trinity.

Many Evangelical Protestants seem to do just that, only by ignoring the Father and the Holy Spirit. So....
What branch of Evangelicalism ignores the Father and/or the Holy Spirit?
Oh Holy Apostle, St. John, pray for us

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2015, 02:55:18 PM »
I agree. You cannot divorce the Father from the Son and the Holy Ghost - it just does not make sense. It is not Christian. If we separate the Father from the Son, we deny the entire Holy and Undivided Trinity.

What do we make of the Jews then?
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2015, 03:05:05 PM »
Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem;

Allah is never referred to as a "Father".

factorem cœli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium.

I do believe the Church and Islam can agree upon this.

Et in unum Dominum, Jesum Christum;

They do not believe "Isa" was/is Lord (Allah/God) in any way
Neither do the jews

Quote
. Just a man who was a prophet[.
The Jews don't even give him this much. He was a false prophet to them.

Quote
Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula;

No, Allah can not have a human son or become human in any way. They believe it is way beneath his dignity.
Jews believe the same

Quote
Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero;

Allah is the only God.

genitum non factum, consubstantialem Patri;

Allah is one. Who is not "consubstanstial" with anything.
The Jews don't believe this either

Quote
per quem omnia facta sunt.

Allah did not use the "Word"( Christ ) to create anything.
Neither do the Jews, at least not in the at Christians understand.

Quote
I could keep going, but from the statement of our own Credo ( I believe..), the very foundation of the Church's religious belief, we do not worship the Allah of Islam and they do not worship our Christ, the third person of the Holy Trinity. Our GOD.
Yet by the same standard the Jews don't worship our God either yet the God we worship is the God of the Jews and our God said as much about who the Jews worship:

"You (Samaritans) adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews."
John 4:22
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 03:05:35 PM by Wandile »
During the Iconoclastic Crisis, Stephen the Faster challenged the assembled Bishops at Hiereia:

"How can you call a council ecumenical when the bishop of Rome has not given his consent, and the canons forbid ecclesiastical affairs to be decided without the pope of Rome?"
-Stephen the Faster

Venerable Benedict Daswa, Blessed Isidore Bakanja and St Charles Lwanga, martyrs, pray for the Church today

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2015, 03:37:57 PM »
I agree. You cannot divorce the Father from the Son and the Holy Ghost - it just does not make sense. It is not Christian. If we separate the Father from the Son, we deny the entire Holy and Undivided Trinity.

Many Evangelical Protestants seem to do just that, only by ignoring the Father and the Holy Spirit. So....
What branch of Evangelicalism ignores the Father and/or the Holy Spirit?

Many, practically speaking, since they pray and sing only to Jesus. There is also the theological movement that critics call "Jesus Only," that teaches that the Godhead consists entirely in Jesus when properly understood. Then there is the theology that "Jesus was the real God of the Old Testament" but that, while it probably historically contributed to Jesus Only-ism, is not quite the same thing.
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Offline Charles Martel

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2015, 04:49:22 PM »
Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem;

Allah is never referred to as a "Father".

factorem cœli et terrae, visibilium omnium et invisibilium.

I do believe the Church and Islam can agree upon this.

Et in unum Dominum, Jesum Christum;

They do not believe "Isa" was/is Lord (Allah/God) in any way
Neither do the jews

Quote
. Just a man who was a prophet[.
The Jews don't even give him this much. He was a false prophet to them.

Quote
Filium Dei unigenitum, et ex Patre natum ante omnia saecula;

No, Allah can not have a human son or become human in any way. They believe it is way beneath his dignity.
Jews believe the same

Quote
Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero;

Allah is the only God.

genitum non factum, consubstantialem Patri;

Allah is one. Who is not "consubstanstial" with anything.
The Jews don't believe this either

Quote
per quem omnia facta sunt.

Allah did not use the "Word"( Christ ) to create anything.
Neither do the Jews, at least not in the at Christians understand.

Quote
I could keep going, but from the statement of our own Credo ( I believe..), the very foundation of the Church's religious belief, we do not worship the Allah of Islam and they do not worship our Christ, the third person of the Holy Trinity. Our GOD.
Yet by the same standard the Jews don't worship our God either yet the God we worship is the God of the Jews and our God said as much about who the Jews worship:

"You (Samaritans) adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews."
John 4:22
The OP was a question pertaining to Islam and Roman Catholicism. Not "the Jews".

Having said that, if you're referring to the Jews that practice Talmudic Judaism, then no , they do not worship the same God as RC since they reject Christ, the second person of the Holy Trinity which is stated in the Credo from which I posted the first part above. Talmudic Jews not only reject Christ but internalize an inate hatred of Christ and his Mother in their Talmud and other writings. Judasim at it's core is a complete rejection of the Gospels as well as the Passion, Crucifixion and Ressurection of the Lord Jesus Christ. the passage you quote about salvation being "of the Jews" was quoted out of context pertaining to the discussion and the statement was made by Jesus referring to himself coming to redeem ALL men being born through the a Jewish ancestory line and was stated to the Samaritan woman BEFORE  the Jews rejected him at the Cross.

Now those Jews that reject the Christ or the Logos (our Lord/God) belong to the Synagogue of Satan;

Behold, I will bring of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie. Behold, I will make them to come and adore before thy feet. And they shall know that I have loved thee. -Revelation 3:9
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2015, 04:51:12 PM »
I agree. You cannot divorce the Father from the Son and the Holy Ghost - it just does not make sense. It is not Christian. If we separate the Father from the Son, we deny the entire Holy and Undivided Trinity.

Many Evangelical Protestants seem to do just that, only by ignoring the Father and the Holy Spirit. So....
What branch of Evangelicalism ignores the Father and/or the Holy Spirit?

Many, practically speaking, since they pray and sing only to Jesus. There is also the theological movement that critics call "Jesus Only," that teaches that the Godhead consists entirely in Jesus when properly understood. Then there is the theology that "Jesus was the real God of the Old Testament" but that, while it probably historically contributed to Jesus Only-ism, is not quite the same thing.
Unfortunately, yes, there is a lot of truth to your first statement. That said, there are worship songs that address the Father and Holy Spirit, including Psalm 103 - Sovereign Grace Music, and Holy Spirit, You Are Welcome Here - Francesca Battistelli.   
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 04:53:48 PM by byhisgrace »
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Offline byhisgrace

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2015, 05:51:30 PM »
Talmudic Jews not only reject Christ but internalize an innate hatred of Christ and his Mother in their Talmud and other writings.
I won't go so far as to say "innate hatred," except for the Pharisees in the first century. Scholars can't agree on whether the Talmudic references are slanderous accounts of Christ or are references to other individuals that were named "Jesus." I've never heard any Jew say that they hate Jesus or Mary. If anything, one can argue that the joke is on us, because we have persecuted Jews MUCH more than they have persecuted us.     
Oh Holy Apostle, St. John, pray for us

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2015, 09:59:31 PM »
Now those Jews that reject the Christ or the Logos (our Lord/God) belong to the Synagogue of Satan;

Behold, I will bring of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie. Behold, I will make them to come and adore before thy feet. And they shall know that I have loved thee. -Revelation 3:9

The part of your statement I've bolded above is a supposition you haven't supported. As a matter of fact, St. John is speaking of a very specific group of Jews, related to the church at Philadelphia, and probably fiercely persecuting them as Christ specially commends their patience and promises as an appropriate award to excuse them from the tribulations at the end of the world. At any rate, to extrapolate the "synagogue of Satan" to include every Jew is unfounded and seems to me to be something that would have to be motivated by antisemitism.
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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2015, 10:01:38 PM »
Talmudic Jews not only reject Christ but internalize an innate hatred of Christ and his Mother in their Talmud and other writings.
I won't go so far as to say "innate hatred," except for the Pharisees in the first century. Scholars can't agree on whether the Talmudic references are slanderous accounts of Christ or are references to other individuals that were named "Jesus." I've never heard any Jew say that they hate Jesus or Mary. If anything, one can argue that the joke is on us, because we have persecuted Jews MUCH more than they have persecuted us.   

On theory is that, in time, Talmudic authors began to use "Jesus" as a pejorative and smeared the histories of several rabbis that they hated with the name. In other words, earlier references to "Jesus" really are to Jesus, and later references are to rabbis in disfavor whom they insulted by eliding their real names with the "Jesus" pejorative.
"Love ... is an abyss of illumination, a mountain of fire ... . It is the condition of angels, the progress of eternity" (Climacus).

Quote from: Seekingtrue
Yes we who are far from sainthood we can recognize a living saint and I'm talking from personal experience.Yes they are gentle soo gentle it can not be described it is like gentleness and humility in one and also they have this light this energy it's beyond words...and when you are near them you feel ecstatic and very happy

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2015, 11:22:05 PM »
Talmudic Jews not only reject Christ but internalize an innate hatred of Christ and his Mother in their Talmud and other writings.
I won't go so far as to say "innate hatred," except for the Pharisees in the first century. Scholars can't agree on whether the Talmudic references are slanderous accounts of Christ or are references to other individuals that were named "Jesus." I've never heard any Jew say that they hate Jesus or Mary. If anything, one can argue that the joke is on us, because we have persecuted Jews MUCH more than they have persecuted us.   

On theory is that, in time, Talmudic authors began to use "Jesus" as a pejorative and smeared the histories of several rabbis that they hated with the name. In other words, earlier references to "Jesus" really are to Jesus, and later references are to rabbis in disfavor whom they insulted by eliding their real names with the "Jesus" pejorative.
When one of the popes centuries ago called the rabbis out on the nasty references in the Talmud about Jesus and Mary the mother of Jesus, they began the explanation that, that Jesus and Mary wasn't the same Jesus and Mary from the Christian bible.

One commentator on this incident quipped this was the beginning of Jewish humor. ::)
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2015, 11:36:55 PM »
Maimonides once suffixed Jesus' name with the phrase "...may his bones be ground to dust". Kind of like a reverse PBUH, I guess.

In contrast, when medieval Jewish writers discussed Muhammad, they referred to him as "ha-meshuggah" ("the madman"), rather than by name.
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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #45 on: December 31, 2015, 12:08:59 AM »
 8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 2015, 12:10:32 AM by JoeS2 »


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Re: Do the Roman Catholics believe Islam worships the same God?
« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2016, 10:35:19 PM »
True Catholics know muslims and Catholics don't worship the same God, since islam doesn't recognize Jesus as God, and Catholics do it is impossible we believe in the same God. That being said many novus order catholics today who are clueless about the faith actually we believe catholics and muslims and jews worship the same God....tragic