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Offline mikeforjesus

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Q on acts 15
« on: December 14, 2015, 07:50:45 AM »
Acts 15 (NKJV)
But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

This logic is not perfect just because the Holy Spirit fell on them why does that mean they do not need to keep the law of Moses ? Not that I believe you need to
Can you not say the same with regard to baptism
I thought baptism was required for purification but here it says they are purified by faith
I know because Jesus taught baptism but the logic does not seem perfect

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2015, 09:32:05 AM »
Acts 15 (NKJV)
But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

This logic is not perfect just because the Holy Spirit fell on them why does that mean they do not need to keep the law of Moses ? Not that I believe you need to
Because they (the Gentile Christians) were never part of the tribes of Israel.

Quote
Can you not say the same with regard to baptism
I thought baptism was required for purification but here it says they are purified by faith
I know because Jesus taught baptism but the logic does not seem perfect
Why do you set up the either-or fallacy here? Faith... Or... Baptism. Why can't it be both? We are purified by faith AND baptism, not one without the other.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2015, 12:12:03 PM »
Quote
I thought baptism was required for purification but here it says they are purified by faith
Traditionally, faith is an action. Baptism is part of faith.

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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2015, 03:15:31 PM »
... This logic is not perfect just because the Holy Spirit fell on them why does that mean they do not need to keep the law of Moses?

It is not "logic," but an observation of what God the Holy Spirit was visibly telling them. If the Holy Spirit can dwell in a Gentile, then clearly a Gentile can be saved.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2015, 08:53:21 PM »
I was disappointed to note this thread did not in any sense involve John de Lancie.  Can't win them all, I suppose.


 :P
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Offline wgw

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2015, 08:55:03 PM »
Quote
I thought baptism was required for purification but here it says they are purified by faith
Traditionally, faith is an action. Baptism is part of faith.

PP

One might argue that faith in the Lord reauires faith in the words of the Lord, which direct us to be received into His holy Church via the mysteries of Baptism and Chrismation.
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2015, 02:40:31 AM »
Sorry for not replying to any of the posts I made I was busy

Perhaps Purifying their hearts by faith just means their sincerity and God trusting them to obey all His commandments including baptism

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2015, 09:18:10 AM »
Quote
I thought baptism was required for purification but here it says they are purified by faith
Traditionally, faith is an action. Baptism is part of faith.

PP

One might argue that faith in the Lord reauires faith in the words of the Lord, which direct us to be received into His holy Church via the mysteries of Baptism and Chrismation.
True, again...an action, or a series of them.
Quote
John de Lancie
I cant help but think that if I were given ultimate power, I would act like Q.

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Offline David Young

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2015, 05:15:37 PM »
One might argue that faith in the Lord requires faith in the words of the Lord, which direct us to be received into His holy Church via the
mystery of baptism.

Quite so. Circumcision was a sign that one was a Jew; baptism is a sign that one is a Christian. The two are closely linked, and the Lord instituted both: he chose the Jews, and he saves the sinner making him a Christian. For the former he commanded circumcision, for the latter he commanded baptism. We sometimes use the phrase "an outward sign of an inward grace". To come back to the original question, the coming of the Spirit into these people demonstrated that they were already people of God, so there was no need to make them Jews in addition in order to insert them into the company of God's people. They needed to obey the command to be baptised which was their open reception into the church of God.

This raises all manner of other questions, such as: what about people who genuinely believe they have been baptised but who haven't been baptised in a scriptural way (e.g. people baptised only as infants, from a Baptist point of view, or people immersed upon confession of faith in Christ but in a denomination (such as Baptist) which is outside apostolic succession)? what about people with a passionate devotion to Christ who have had no baptism at all (such as the early Quakers, or the early Salvationists)? what about people baptised "in the name of Jesus" (as some were in scripture) not in the Trinitarian formula? what about people baptised by sprinkling, affusion or immersion (whichever ones you think are wrong)? No doubt we could think up other questions.

To come back to the original question again, circumcision may be regarded as a racial or national rite, showing membership of an earthly people, a nation; baptism is a sign of membership in a spiritual kingdom. You don't have to join the earthly race first in order to gain entry to the spiritual one. The effusion of the Spirit showed that they were already members in what might be called "the communion of saints" (sanctorum communio).
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 05:18:45 PM by David Young »
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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2015, 05:23:05 PM »
I was under the impression that Baptists don't believe baptism has any saving grace in it, and so was inessential to salvation.
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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2015, 05:28:14 PM »
One might argue that faith in the Lord requires faith in the words of the Lord, which direct us to be received into His holy Church via the
mystery of baptism.

Quite so. Circumcision was a sign that one was a Jew; baptism is a sign that one is a Christian. The two are closely linked, and the Lord instituted both: he chose the Jews, and he saves the sinner making him a Christian. For the former he commanded circumcision, for the latter he commanded baptism. We sometimes use the phrase "an outward sign of an inward grace". To come back to the original question, the coming of the Spirit into these people demonstrated that they were already people of God, so there was no need to make them Jews in addition in order to insert them into the company of God's people. They needed to obey the command to be baptised which was their open reception into the church of God.

This raises all manner of other questions, such as: what about people who genuinely believe they have been baptised but who haven't been baptised in a scriptural way (e.g. people baptised only as infants, from a Baptist point of view, or people immersed upon confession of faith in Christ but in a denomination (such as Baptist) which is outside apostolic succession)? what about people with a passionate devotion to Christ who have had no baptism at all (such as the early Quakers, or the early Salvationists)? what about people baptised "in the name of Jesus" (as some were in scripture) not in the Trinitarian formula? what about people baptised by sprinkling, affusion or immersion (whichever ones you think are wrong)? No doubt we could think up other questions.

To come back to the original question again, circumcision may be regarded as a racial or national rite, showing membership of an earthly people, a nation; baptism is a sign of membership in a spiritual kingdom. You don't have to join the earthly race first in order to gain entry to the spiritual one. The effusion of the Spirit showed that they were already members in what might be called "the communion of saints" (sanctorum communio).

Very good post.  We must dine the next time I find myself in your green and pleasant land.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2015, 09:34:48 AM »
I was under the impression that Baptists don't believe baptism has any saving grace in it, and so was inessential to salvation.
It depends if you refer to baptists anywhere else in the world, or those in the US.

TBH, US Baptists should have their own separate designation, that way, worldwide baptists wont have their name besmirched.

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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2015, 09:44:10 AM »
Abraham's circumcision was a seal of his faith
As he was still alive he was expected to be circumcised
So baptism is necessary when you know you must do it and you have the chance

« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 09:44:26 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2015, 11:14:46 AM »
I was under the impression that Baptists don't believe baptism has any saving grace in it, and so was inessential to salvation.
It depends if you refer to baptists anywhere else in the world, or those in the US.

TBH, US Baptists should have their own separate designation, that way, worldwide baptists wont have their name besmirched.

PP

Is the difference really that big?

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2015, 01:24:20 PM »
I was under the impression that Baptists don't believe baptism has any saving grace in it, and so was inessential to salvation.
It depends if you refer to baptists anywhere else in the world, or those in the US.

TBH, US Baptists should have their own separate designation, that way, worldwide baptists wont have their name besmirched.

PP

Is the difference really that big?

I would say so. The history of the Baptists in America is colorful and has re-formed them entirely. As just one example, consider that at first Baptists in America were Calvinists, but, after succumbing to the Methodist invasion of the Second Great Awakening, almost all of them outside of a very few deep rural spots became Arminian (with, usually, the twist of Eternal Security). Or consider the Southern Baptist (the largest American denomination) commitment to American political causes, enough to alter their own theology several times in history, most notoriously during the Civil War. This could hardly have be true of Baptists in Britain.
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2015, 01:18:24 AM »
I apologise for this post I thought orthodox people would stop people from being confused from my post by rebutting
How do I repent and become more orthodox again?
I do however believe Protestants can be saved but those who were baptised orthodox by their parents and had no opposition to the truth because their parents promised to be orthodox have to stay orthodox either to be saved or have greater reward because to whom much is given to him more is required they need the sacraments to be sanctified I don't know about Protestants if they need it to live just as much righteously as orthodox can and achieve same reward  as good orthodox

What if a person decides not to baptise their child though they were brought up orthodox
The parent will not be saved but the child is counted as a Protestant because he was not baptised and has confusion for the truth
I say this because the church condemns all orthodox apostates
But there is no excuse for not believing in Jesus Christ because anyone who seeks the truth can find Him even those who have never heard the gospel I have been told



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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2015, 01:23:42 AM »
I was under the impression that Baptists don't believe baptism has any saving grace in it, and so was inessential to salvation.
It depends if you refer to baptists anywhere else in the world, or those in the US.

TBH, US Baptists should have their own separate designation, that way, worldwide baptists wont have their name besmirched.

PP

Is the difference really that big?

I would say so. The history of the Baptists in America is colorful and has re-formed them entirely. As just one example, consider that at first Baptists in America were Calvinists, but, after succumbing to the Methodist invasion of the Second Great Awakening, almost all of them outside of a very few deep rural spots became Arminian (with, usually, the twist of Eternal Security). Or consider the Southern Baptist (the largest American denomination) commitment to American political causes, enough to alter their own theology several times in history, most notoriously during the Civil War. This could hardly have be true of Baptists in Britain.

Although, Baptists in other non-European countries (not just the USA) also have their own idiosyncratic traits. There are Spiritual Baptists in the Caribbean who incorporated elements of traditional African religion (orisha), for instance. Or the Georgian Baptists (the country of Georgia) who have been discussed here before. And, when it comes to politics and church-state relations, the  Baptist Church of Tripura is about as far from classic English Baptist ideas as you could possibly get. The Tripura Baptists want to establish a theocracy and have been accused of forcibly converting Hindus!
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Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2015, 01:36:01 AM »
Well, keep in mind "Baptist" is also a word, and groups who use it as a name may have not connection with one another organizationally or historically. For example, the German Baptists were Lutheran pietists of the early Victorian era who were inspired by reading Menno Simonsen to create a new denomination, and were known as "Neuetaeufer" in German-speaking countries. That word should probably be translated "Neo-Anabaptists," but when they arrived in the U.S., the very literal translation of "Baptists" is what they were dubbed. They wouldn't have known American Baptist doctrine or history if their lives depended on it.
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2015, 02:42:05 AM »
Corrections

I do however believe Protestants can be saved but those who were baptised orthodox by their parents and had no opposition to the truth because their parents promised to be orthodox have to stay orthodox either to be saved or (delete have greater reward) because to whom much is given to him more is required

What if a person decides not to baptise their child though they were brought up orthodox
The parent will not be saved but the child is counted as a non apostate Protestant because he was not baptised and has confusion for the truth


Does the church really condemn orthodox converts to Protestantism who still accept orthodox ?
I would have said they would maybe or definitely have less reward if they can't live as righteously without the sacraments which seems even more likely for apostates or they would certainly have even less grace than Protestants but I would not exclude them from the kingdom of heaven
But if the church says so I guess I should accept it
But if the church does not accept me for believing some Protestants will be saved I guess I have to leave orthodoxy
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 02:46:03 AM by mikeforjesus »

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2015, 02:54:56 AM »
Corrections

I do however believe Protestants can be saved but those who were baptised orthodox by their parents and had no opposition to the truth because their parents promised to be orthodox have to stay orthodox either to be saved or (delete have greater reward) because to whom much is given to him more is required

What if a person decides not to baptise their child though they were brought up orthodox
The parent will not be saved but the child is counted as a non apostate Protestant because he was not baptised and has confusion for the truth


Does the church really condemn orthodox converts to Protestantism who still accept orthodox ?
I would have said they would maybe or definitely have less reward if they can't live as righteously without the sacraments which seems even more likely for apostates or they would certainly have even less grace than Protestants but I would not exclude them from the kingdom of heaven
But if the church says so I guess I should accept it
But if the church does not accept me for believing some Protestants will be saved I guess I have to leave orthodoxy
Who said that the Church does not accept you for believing some Protestants will be saved? ???
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Offline mikeforjesus

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2015, 03:44:58 AM »
Good to know they don't

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2015, 04:45:27 PM »
I was under the impression that Baptists don't believe baptism has any saving grace in it, and so was inessential to salvation.
You are right: we do not believe it to be essential to salvation. Nonetheless, it is a command of the Lord and should be practised for love of him. Probably most Baptists in the UK and the USA (I cannot say of others) do not see any sacramental grace in either baptism or the Lord's Supper, but "most" is not "all". I am not alone in believing that there is genuine sacramental grace (but not saving grace in the sense of imparting or effecting the new birth) in both the ordinances.

For most, Zwingli's view of the Lord's Supper has become the default view, and a similar kind of belief usually attaches to baptism. Part of the problem is that they are - to use the Orthodox phrase - holy mysteries, and it is not easy to teach the meaning of a mystery (otherwise it would no longer be a mystery). I have preached the concept of sacramental grace attaching to the Lord's Supper (not emphasising or maybe even using the word "sacrament") before administering the Lord's Supper (we usually, though not always, have the sermon before the Communion), and no-one has objected. To some extent it is a matter of what words one would use to convey the concept (or indeed, the truth).

It is a long time since I baptised anyone, as I am now retired, and before that I worked for a missionary society for 25 years and was no longer in pastoral charge of a church. Today I would almost certainly preach that grace is in some unexplained and mysterious way attached to obedience in faith to the command to be baptised, and again I suspect that if I chose my words wisely, and thus avoided sounding "popish", it would probably be accepted happily.

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« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 04:48:12 PM by David Young »
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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2015, 05:00:25 PM »
There are certainly Baptists here in the U.S. who believe baptism to be necessary to salvation. It is one strain of fundamentalist thought, and shows up in some other denominations, too. This is not some kind of sacramentalism, tho, but is supported as a discrete case of "taking the Bible literally."
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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2015, 05:09:15 PM »
You are right: we do not believe it to be essential to salvation. Nonetheless, it is a command of the Lord and should be practised for love of him.

I mean no offence, but it sounds weird to say that a command of the Lord is not essential to salvation.  It is his word. 

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2015, 05:16:29 PM »
"Salvation" of course means very different things to different denominations. When it is a calling upon the Lord that effects instantly and invisibly a change in how one is labeled in the Book of Judgment on high, that is nohow the same as when it is a preservation thru the ills of self and life and, at the end, an access of immortality.
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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2015, 05:20:53 PM »
Quote
I thought baptism was required for purification but here it says they are purified by faith
Traditionally, faith is an action. Baptism is part of faith.

PP

Traditional is a modern construct, and within modernity, faith has skewed more to the cognitive over and against "action". While modern scholarship has helped shed light on what faith likely meant to those hearing those words, its hard to just take: it means action as a help.

Quote mining Fathers in light of our modern insights doesn't seem to help much either.

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2015, 05:25:14 PM »
I was under the impression that Baptists don't believe baptism has any saving grace in it, and so was inessential to salvation.

Iconodule, I think if you spend any time with Baptists of the ilk I was raised among, you would find things are more complex.

They would explicitly and without prompt state that baptism is a profession of faith, but in the working every day, there seemed to be a belief that baptism did do something other than just mark a believer's welcome into a community.

IOW, I think most people would have questioned the salvation / faith of someone who got saved then refused to be baptized, while attending our parish, witnessing, going to Bible school, etc.

I don't think most Baptists that I knew of could articulate much of what they believed, like most of us, and they lacked of course a written account upon which they could easily fall back on.

Offline orthonorm

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2015, 05:26:31 PM »
"Salvation" of course means very different things to different denominations. When it is a calling upon the Lord that effects instantly and invisibly a change in how one is labeled in the Book of Judgment on high, that is nohow the same as when it is a preservation thru the ills of self and life and, at the end, an access of immortality.

And this of course would be a false dichotomy. I grew up among those who would believed it to be both.

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2015, 05:30:28 PM »
There are certainly Baptists here in the U.S. who believe baptism to be necessary to salvation. It is one strain of fundamentalist thought, and shows up in some other denominations, too. This is not some kind of sacramentalism, tho, but is supported as a discrete case of "taking the Bible literally."

You seem to know something of the history here. Could you give me some resources you are drawing from?

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2015, 05:36:47 PM »
I was under the impression that Baptists don't believe baptism has any saving grace in it, and so was inessential to salvation.

Iconodule, I think if you spend any time with Baptists of the ilk I was raised among, you would find things are more complex.

They would explicitly and without prompt state that baptism is a profession of faith, but in the working every day, there seemed to be a belief that baptism did do something other than just mark a believer's welcome into a community.

IOW, I think most people would have questioned the salvation / faith of someone who got saved then refused to be baptized, while attending our parish, witnessing, going to Bible school, etc.

I don't think most Baptists that I knew of could articulate much of what they believed, like most of us, and they lacked of course a written account upon which they could easily fall back on.

I imagine that, outside of formal theological education, "outward" signs necessarily take on pronounced significance, including the way you're baptized, the kind of music you have at church, the way the pastor dresses, the way the church is adorned, etc. for the same reasons the way people crossed themselves took on such significance in medieval Russia.
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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2015, 06:22:39 PM »
I was under the impression that Baptists don't believe baptism has any saving grace in it, and so was inessential to salvation.

Iconodule, I think if you spend any time with Baptists of the ilk I was raised among, you would find things are more complex.

They would explicitly and without prompt state that baptism is a profession of faith, but in the working every day, there seemed to be a belief that baptism did do something other than just mark a believer's welcome into a community.

IOW, I think most people would have questioned the salvation / faith of someone who got saved then refused to be baptized, while attending our parish, witnessing, going to Bible school, etc.

I don't think most Baptists that I knew of could articulate much of what they believed, like most of us, and they lacked of course a written account upon which they could easily fall back on.

I imagine that, outside of formal theological education, "outward" signs necessarily take on pronounced significance, including the way you're baptized, the kind of music you have at church, the way the pastor dresses, the way the church is adorned, etc. for the same reasons the way people crossed themselves took on such significance in medieval Russia.

I don't pipe up much when people discuss Baptists or OSASs, because, I it's clear to me most people are coming from outside those traditions and I've yet to be able to give a decent expression of the faith which I was brought up in.

While salvation did seem to have a binary construction, it did seem that while the gap between saved and not saved was huge, that where was room on either side for varying degrees of salvation and damnation, both in this age and the next.

And perhaps as you point out external signs take up some theological significance when you are outside an explicitly systematic theological tradition. My parishes would have said, Schofield, end of story.

But keeping certain "Jewish" customs, forsaking the secular, so and on and so forth, did not only seem to betoken salvation, but also were means by which it could be found.

Take an example of the exemplary family on the weekend. "Church" stated Friday evening at dusk and would've run through Sunday late evening. Most of the parish showed up at the appointed times on the sign, but many of us were there throughout the weekend, cooking, praying, practicing, witnessing, etc. And we would be exhorted to do as much as possible during this time. It wasn't to show up others, but more for the love of God which seemed to me to mean to find a holy life within this age.

Even when we burned rock albums and stuff like that, it seems that those items and practices which were being destroyed seemed to have not just a tokening aspect, but a real effect on the world and person and community.

I can tell you this, God was never more close nor more real to me during my time with some of the most backwood and backward people you could've imagined to've met.

Regardless of what the Priest thought who chrismated me, the Orthodox faith he often seemed to want lived within his parish had clearly been lived within the Baptist ones I was part of as a youth. To our policies on racial separation and the like, I am sure he would've thought those ideas terrible.

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2015, 05:29:22 PM »
I mean no offence, but it sounds weird to say that a command of the Lord is not essential to salvation. 

No offence taken.

Salvation is of grace; we build up no merit. I doubt any of us obey all the Lord's commands uninterruptedly. That is not to imply that baptism and the Lord's Supper are not in a special category, but we do not believe they supersede the gift of grace.
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2015, 05:32:18 PM »
"Salvation" ... When it is a calling upon the Lord that effects instantly and invisibly a change in how one is labeled in the Book of Judgment on high, that is nohow the same as when it is a preservation thru the ills of self and life and, at the end, an access of immortality.

Nohow the same perhaps, but it is all organically linked. The calling upon the Lord that effects instantly and invisibly a change is the first step; the resurrection of the body and the glorified life are the culmination. But it is one process.
"But if you bite and devour one another, take heed that you are not consumed by one another." Galatians 5.15

Offline Porter ODoran

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Re: Q on acts 15
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2015, 05:46:50 PM »
"Salvation" ... When it is a calling upon the Lord that effects instantly and invisibly a change in how one is labeled in the Book of Judgment on high, that is nohow the same as when it is a preservation thru the ills of self and life and, at the end, an access of immortality.

Nohow the same perhaps, but it is all organically linked. The calling upon the Lord that effects instantly and invisibly a change is the first step; the resurrection of the body and the glorified life are the culmination. But it is one process.

One process? Or one result, perhaps; the latter, in your italics, and anything else of note to the Christian experience, being the result of the former in italics.

Where this becomes important -- one way it becomes important -- is any idea that a command of the Lord's might or might not be salvific. In some denominational minds, this is the same as asking whether neglecting it ensures damnation. But in the Orthodox mind, because salvation is practically the same as the Christian life and afterlife, every Christian action is salvific and there is little sense of "Will neglect of this or this now certainly damn me?" as there is little sense of "I was saved."

All of this is in response to Reply #21, in case that's not apparent to everyone.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 05:47:51 PM by Porter ODoran »
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