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Author Topic: Chrisimation alone or the "Works"  (Read 9907 times) Average Rating: 0
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Timos
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« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2005, 11:30:15 PM »

Hi, I didn't read the entire thread as I dont have time right now but I will tomorrow...anyhow I was wondering about my own situation.

Basically, my great great grand-parents came to Alexandria, Egypt a looong time ago like before the 1890's thats for sure and established themselves there.

In Alexandria, there are a number of Greek Orthodox churches and there was even a Greek quarter of the city, but in the countryside and in other Egyptian cities, there aren't too many Greek Orthodox churches. So eventually my ancestor family had to go to Coptic Orthodox churches and pray there.

As a younger kid (11 years old) I found that I was especially and suddenly attached to the Greek Orthodox Church when one day I heard chanting monks from Mt. athos on a tape. And so I stopped attending the coptic Orthodox church (my personal belief is that they are valid...but I just felt more at home in the GOC). Anyhow, the family really initially resented it because my family has lost the historical and spiritual ties with Hellenism and Orthodoxy but they eventually got over it. It was the Coptic priests who would call me and try to "save me from going down the wrong path" as they saw it. I'm sure they meant well. they don't know about my faily history and I don't want to tell them because its complicated as it is trying to regain your lost past. So they basically see me as a traitor.

Anyhow,  my GO priest recieved me through confession only saying it wasn't necessary to re-chrismate me because the OO have the same view of the Trinity and the Rite of Baptism and Chrismation is almost identical in many aspects...the renunciation of Satan, etc...

So this is my question: Do you guys think I should be re-chrismated?? I have lots of good and bad reasons. First of all, I want a baptismal certificate which matches who I am today- not an accident of my family history and I also want to go to Mt. Athos someday for a visit (I'm a guy Smiley

Is there any way to get a GO Baptismal certificate without redoing the sacraments? I should really talk to father but I don't want to come out as stupid without first investigating.

The bad would be that I might just feel wrong about it. The OO holy oil- also called "myron oil" is holy oil and the sacrament has to do with the Holy Spirit--Not the Nature(s) of the Son, so it should be ok- right?

Sorry for my long post. I've been wanting to get it out but I didn't want to offend anybody-either EO or OO.

Thanks for understanding,
                                     Timos
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Timos
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« Reply #46 on: July 09, 2005, 02:56:26 PM »

anybody? lol. This is actually really bothering me and I was wondering what any of you thought of it.
Thanks,
        Timos
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jlerms
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O sweet Jesus, cleanse my soul.


« Reply #47 on: July 09, 2005, 03:06:49 PM »

Brother Timos,   
I am not qualified to answer your question as I am yet a catachumen.   I wanted you to know that I have indeed read your message and am confident  that others can give you some good guidance.  However,  I would hope that your priest  is knowlegeable in how OOs are normally received into the EO church.   I will pray for you that God's will be done in this situation.
God bless you,     Juliana
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Jennifer
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« Reply #48 on: July 09, 2005, 09:36:01 PM »


So this is my question: Do you guys think I should be re-chrismated?? I have lots of good and bad reasons. First of all, I want a baptismal certificate which matches who I am today- not an accident of my family history and I also want to go to Mt. Athos someday for a visit (I'm a guy Smiley


Timos, I don't think anyone here should even have an opinion about whether you should be "re-chrismated."  This decision is rightly made by the bishops. 
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Timos
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« Reply #49 on: July 09, 2005, 11:23:29 PM »

Thanks for all your replies. Jennifer- my bishop (who is an Athonite monk) has told me that reception through confession is only necessary. Then again I did not talk directly to the bishop but the archbishop who was not an athonite monk.

I don't know if my archbishop is just being kind and frankly now I'm starting to wonder if he's being ecumenistic...and I wonder if thats good or bad. I am really confused about this whole ecumenism and heresy debate. The Orthodox Church simply doesn't have a defnitive line where positive and negative ecumenism lay. For me positive ecumenism is trying to understand the other side w/o giving up any Orthodox faith. Negative ecumenism is when Orthodoxy gives itsel up jusot for unity. I beleive our Church should work on positive ecumenism and completly shut out negative ecumenism. These are terms I invented because I don't know what the proper theological terms other than "heresy" and "grace" could be used here.

I might want to talk to my athonite bishop and skip the archbishop because he will probably tell me everything without beating around the bush.
I Panagia Mazi sas,
                           Timos
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Jennifer
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« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2005, 12:31:14 AM »

Timos, second-guessing a bishop is a very dangerous path to go down.  God has placed this bishop in authority over you.  You are bound to obey him.  That's not to say that we believe that bishops always make the right decisions.  Or even that bishops are infallible.  Unfortunately people sometimes have to disobey their bishops.  But it's not something to be done lightly.  And it's not something that most of us, sinful that we are, are capable of discerning. 

If your bishop is wrong then he is one that will suffer.  God has called you to obey the Church so your obedience is what you'll be judged on. 

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Timos
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« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2005, 08:31:58 AM »

"God has called you to obey the Church so your obedience is what you'll be judged on."

Exactly and thats why I want to do it the right way. I'll still pray about this issue so I can make sure God is guiding me down the right path.
Timos 
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t0m_dR
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« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2005, 10:23:35 AM »

Timos, second-guessing a bishop is a very dangerous path to go down.ÂÂ  God has placed this bishop in authority over you.ÂÂ  You are bound to obey him.ÂÂ  That's not to say that we believe that bishops always make the right decisions.ÂÂ  Or even that bishops are infallible.ÂÂ  Unfortunately people sometimes have to disobey their bishops.ÂÂ  But it's not something to be done lightly.ÂÂ  And it's not something that most of us, sinful that we are, are capable of discerning.ÂÂ  

If your bishop is wrong then he is one that will suffer.ÂÂ  God has called you to obey the Church so your obedience is what you'll be judged on.ÂÂ  


Nope. Obedience, my friend,  in Orthodoxy, is not the same as in the Latins.

IF a Bishop orders something AGAINST Church Cannons, he MUST NOT OBEY, as it is stated by St. Nicodemos of Mount Athos, AND St. Ignatius Briachianinov. (hope spelling is okay..)

Of course, this is not easy to see, as you rightly said, and I agree. But the Bishop as well, HAS TO obey to the Church Cannons.
He can't do as he likes. If the Bishop practices anti-orthodox teachings, then he MUST NOT follow him.

Mind you, I'm not talking about Timos, or his Bishop, but only in General.

e.g. I know an Austrian Bishop which GIVES COMMUNION to Latins.
A friend of mine left him, saying inside the Church, for EVERYONE TO HEAR: "YOU ARE A TRAITOR".
He now goes to Russian Church. This was THE RIGHT THING to do. from his part.

Not only did that Bisshop give Communion to non-Orthodox, but he seated the LATIN BISHOP, inside a Church, on the Bishop's Throne (am I saying it correctly , in english?) , sometime at a Liturgy. That was WAY too much, for my friend.

People that do not CONDEMN such practices, are as faulty as the ones practicing them.
Except, if they don't know better.

Obedience, my sister, is a must-do, only if it does not go against the Church Theology & Cannons.


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