OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 29, 2014, 02:46:25 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The Siege of Constantinople  (Read 4647 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Simayan
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate - GOA
Posts: 816



« on: July 21, 2005, 09:28:45 AM »

I have always been fascinated with The Byzantines, and this is possibly one of the reasons I am joining the Orthodox faith. I recently read a "play-by-play" history/commentary by a historian who recorded the events of the siege, and saw the Hollywood styled charge of St. Constantine The Great with he allied commanders when all else was lost.

I am visiting Constantinople this summer for the first time, and I'm anxious to see the walls, the palace, and most of all, The Hagia Sofia. I have absolutely no intrest in The Ottoman side. In fact, in my opinion, Turkey should be forced to give back Constantinople to The Patriarch and have the city governed as an independent nation; like Vatican City.

But, I am wondering, has Islam formally apologized for these barbaric acts of looting and raping when the city was taken?

Logged

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death, nor mourning nor crying nor suffering, for the old order of things has passed away."
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2005, 09:53:27 AM »

I have always been fascinated with The Byzantines, and this is possibly one of the reasons I am joining the Orthodox faith. I recently read a "play-by-play" history/commentary by a historian who recorded the events of the siege, and saw the Hollywood styled charge of St. Constantine The Great with he allied commanders when all else was lost.

I am visiting Constantinople this summer for the first time, and I'm anxious to see the walls, the palace, and most of all, The Hagia Sofia. I have absolutely no intrest in The Ottoman side. In fact, in my opinion, Turkey should be forced to give back Constantinople to The Patriarch and have the city governed as an independent nation; like Vatican City.

But, I am wondering, has Islam formally apologized for these barbaric acts of looting and raping when the city was taken?



Well, given the fact that Turkey has yet to even acknowledge much more recent attrocities such as the Armenian genocide or the burning of Smyrna, I highly doubt it. If they can't even admit that they perpetrated genocidal acts against Armenian and Greek Christians less than 100 years ago, what's the chance that they might apologise for attrocities committed more than 500 years ago? Slim to non-existent, I would have said.

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
bergschlawiner
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 235

Sarisan


« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2005, 01:09:01 PM »

Question:ÂÂ  Does anyone know any time in the history of the world that Muslims have ever apologized for anything that they have done either collectively or as individuals?ÂÂ  Has any leader of the Muslim faith ever issued a fatwa condemning these acts?
Logged
Αριστοκλής
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 10,026


« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2005, 03:36:29 PM »

Question:  Does anyone know any time in the history of the world that Muslims have ever apologized for anything that they have done either collectively or as individuals?  Has any leader of the Muslim faith ever issued a fatwa condemning these acts?

HA!
Logged

"Religion is a neurobiological illness and Orthodoxy is its cure." - Fr. John S. Romanides
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2005, 08:15:36 PM »

Which group of muslims should apologize?  As I understant there is no papal figuere in Islam - so who should apologize?  And who that is alive today is directly responsible for Constantinople's fall?  Perhaps rather than trying to capture the earthly splendor of the past we should build the church in our own hearts first.
Logged
CRCulver
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Finland and Romanian Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,159


St Stephen of Perm, missionary to speakers of Komi


WWW
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2005, 08:29:57 PM »

The siege of Constantinople was based just as much on the lifestyle of the Turks, marauders from eastern Central Asia that they were, as it was on Islamic expansion. The Turks were nomadic, haughty conquerors before the conversion of some to Islam, and they probably would have ended up taking most of Anatolia anyway. So, even though Islam is a diabolical religion, there is more to the fall of Constantinople than it.

However, I do agree that it would be wonderful if Constantinople were reclaimed for Orthodoxy.
Logged
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2005, 09:21:28 PM »

I think it would be horrible if Istanbul were to revert back to Constantinople. Orthodoxy needs to get away from the past.
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,440


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2005, 09:29:14 PM »

I think it would be horrible if Istanbul were to revert back to Constantinople. Orthodoxy needs to get away from the past.

Yeah but in that case it would be the future not the past.
Logged

Met. Demetrius's Enthronement

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching.

I served as an Orthodox priest from June 2008 to April 2013, before resigning for personal reasons
eleni
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 155



« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2005, 11:34:13 PM »

You all do know that there are many prophecies about the taking back of Constantinople?
All prophecies state that Constantinople will be given to the Greeks by Russia..........then the Antichrist will show himself.

Glory be to God
IX
helen
Logged

A Prudent man foresees evil and hides himself;
The simple pass on and are punished.
-Proverbs27:12-
admiralnick
Cardinal, Editor for Photogalleries
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,880


« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2005, 07:43:54 AM »

Forgiveness is not something that comes easily to anyone and members of Islam are included. However, just because they apologize would we accept their apology? Think of it this way on a more relative front: Have we forgiven the RCC for the sacking of Constantinople during the crusades? Its one of the major sticking points of RCC-OC talks. We're supposed to be Orthodox Christians and the Orthodox thing to do would be to just move on and not hold a grudge against those who have done harm to us. However, like I said, this doesn't come easily, not even to the Orthodox.


Nick
Logged

The ORIGINAL: "NULL"
jmbejdl
Count-Palatine James the Spurious of Giggleswick on the Naze
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Romania
Posts: 1,480


Great Martyr St. John the New of Suceava


« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2005, 07:51:19 AM »

Think of it this way on a more relative front: Have we forgiven the RCC for the sacking of Constantinople during the crusades? Its one of the major sticking points of RCC-OC talks.

It is? I've never heard that - the sticking points always seem to be Papal supremacy and the filioque. I don't doubt that grudges stemming back to the sack of Constantinople still exist in Orthodox circles (after all most people from the Balkans seem very adept at holding grudges) but I don't really think that they've played any part in official dialogues with Rome. Have you heard something different?

James
Logged

We owe greater gratitude to those who humble us, wrong us, and douse us with venom, than to those who nurse us with honour and sweet words, or feed us with tasty food and confections, for bile is the best medicine for our soul. - Elder Paisios of Mount Athos
Simayan
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate - GOA
Posts: 816



« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2005, 03:37:53 PM »

Actually, Pope John Paul II confessed the sins of The Sack and asked for forgiveness a few years back. Im assuming his appology was accpeted, but Im not sure.

Heres a link, many more can be found:

http://www.hvk.org/articles/0501/44.html

Oddly, I never knew the excommunication between the churches had been ended. Im glad it is though, as a merger can only increase Christiandom's power. However, that will not happen until the Pope can humble himself to the level of fallibility.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2005, 03:41:58 PM by Simayan » Logged

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death, nor mourning nor crying nor suffering, for the old order of things has passed away."
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2005, 08:04:24 PM »

Back in 1204 the West was able to spare enough soldiers to sack Constantinople. Today, 800 years later, with all the economic, technological, social, and economic development of the west are they now unable to spare enough soldiers to Liberate the City? We should accept their apology in the manner it was offered, as a political maneuver, and lacking of all honesty. If they are truly sorry, let their actions prove it.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2005, 08:08:38 PM »

Please name a single person in the West currently alive that is responsible for the sack of Constantinople, and thus should apologize. 
Logged
TomS
Banned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 3,186


"Look At Me! Look At Me Now! " - Bono


« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2005, 10:07:39 PM »

Please name a single person in the West currently alive that is responsible for the sack of Constantinople, and thus should apologize.ÂÂ  

Good point.
Logged
Simayan
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate - GOA
Posts: 816



« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2005, 10:19:54 PM »

Well, considering the Pope excummunicated ALL of the crusaders after they sacked the city, it isnt a problemw ith The Papacy, but more the Merchants fo Venice.

When I was Catholic, I would have appologized for The Siege if I had the chance. Its just common sence to condemn the acts of those who fought for what you believe in but instead slandarized it. Though the RCC cant "appologize", I think an All-Out Crusade should be called against Islam itself for "Barbaric acts that they will not stop, nor condemn."
Logged

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death, nor mourning nor crying nor suffering, for the old order of things has passed away."
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2005, 10:21:06 PM »

Please name a single person in the West currently alive that is responsible for the sack of Constantinople, and thus should apologize.ÂÂ  

The "Tesoro" ("Treasury") of St. Mark's Basilica in Venice, to this day, contains most of the booty plundered by the Crusaders from Constantinople. Aren't they therefore still reaping the benefits from it? I'm not saying an apology is necessary, but people today are still benefitting from the sack of Constantinople. Let 'em have it I say, just leave us our Souls and Orthodoxy!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2005, 10:21:52 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2005, 10:23:27 PM »

I think an All-Out Crusade should be called against Islam itself for "Barbaric acts that they will not stop, nor condemn."

Oh great! A "Christian" jihad! Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: July 22, 2005, 10:23:52 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Faith: refuse
Posts: 29,327


« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2005, 11:26:12 PM »

A person once confrontationally asked Fr. Seraphim Rose to explain the mistreatment of Jews in Tsarist Russia. His response was something like "I don't have to defend something that was obviously unChristian." We might also say that Christians do not have to apologize for things done by people who were obviously unChristian.

Of course, it is true that some are still benefiting from those unChristian acts, but then such unfairness is human history in a nutshell. Americans have no right to throw stones while living in glass houses. "Men rise on stepping stones of themselves to higher things. I've stepped over lots of bodies on my way..."
Logged

.
sin_vladimirov
ANAXIOS!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 477

ICXC NIKA


« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2005, 11:52:03 PM »

I think an All-Out Crusade should be called against Islam itself for "Barbaric acts that they will not stop, nor condemn."

I am last one to like or love islam as a faith, so if we can do a crusade and extinguish islam, I am all for it.

If that crusade is not against my fellow human being.
If that crusade has nothing to do with forcible conversion.
If that crusade respects free will.

I would rather be killed by an evil muslim than kill an innocent one.

Doing evil as an answer for evil is evil.



Jesus Christ, the Son of God, have mercy on me, the sinner.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2005, 11:52:27 PM by sin_vladimirov » Logged

Lord have mercy.
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2005, 02:11:54 AM »

George,

I agree with your idea that those who reap the benefits of others crimes should make reperations.ÂÂ  But I'll let you start first.ÂÂ  Go sell your house and any wealth amassed in Australia and give it to the nearest Aborigine.ÂÂ  
« Last Edit: July 23, 2005, 02:12:22 AM by Silouan » Logged
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2005, 02:16:41 AM »

I agree with your idea that those who reap the benefits of others crimes should make reperations.

Errr...... I actually didn't say that.
I believe what I said was:

Let 'em have it I say, just leave us our Souls and Orthodoxy!
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2005, 02:39:11 AM »

And Silouan,
Although I said that when it comes to the Crusaders:
I'm not saying an apology is necessary
I do expect one from you for misquoting me Wink

George
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Simayan
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate - GOA
Posts: 816



« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2005, 06:36:15 AM »

If that crusade is not against my fellow human being.
If that crusade has nothing to do with forcible conversion.
If that crusade respects free will.

I would rather be killed by an evil muslim than kill an innocent one.

Quite. I do not wish to slaughter the innocents, only get rid of those mid-eastern governments, and attempt to preach the True Christianity.

However, I do believe that Palistine should be apart of Israel from now on, no questions. The Prime Minister should send in all avalible troops to bring an end to this follishness.
Logged

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death, nor mourning nor crying nor suffering, for the old order of things has passed away."
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2005, 06:52:23 AM »

The Law of the Stupidest Argument (With thanks to Keble)

Most internet discussion areas are subject, more or less, to The Law of the Stupidest Argument:

"In a discussion among strangers, the least thoughtful controversial position stated will dominate the argument."

This doesn't mean it will prevail, but subsequent discussion will tend to revolve around this position. And the actual merit of the "stupid" position is irrelevant; be it simple or simplistic, it will drive subtler and more complex positions out of the discussion.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2005, 06:53:00 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
jlerms
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 826


O sweet Jesus, cleanse my soul.


« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2005, 11:02:59 AM »


Well said Ozgeorge!  I have noticed that the least common denominator seems to prevail in internet discussions.  Maybe it's because most humans would prefer to ignore the subtler and more meaningful things for the tastier and more "controversial". 

Let Thy mercy , O Lord, be upon us, according as we have hoped in Thee.
Blessed art Thou, O Lord, teach me Thy statutes.
Blessed art Thou, O Master, grant me understanding of Thy statutes.
Blessed art Thou, O Holy One, enlighten me by Thy statutes.
Logged
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2005, 12:04:53 PM »

George,

Your implication was that those in possesion of the plunder still had culpibility in the matter, so my analogy still stands in a general sense....
Logged
Simayan
Site Supporter
High Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Ecumenical Patriarchate - GOA
Posts: 816



« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2005, 12:37:33 PM »

Firstly, George, stop with the double posting nonsense.

Also, if that "Law" was directed at me and my Crusade idea, then you are terribly mistaken. The MAIN topic of this post was if Islam and Turkey had appologized for the siege; the Crusade came later. On another point, you seem to be one of those people who think Jihad was in response to Crusade. Not so. Islam attacked Constantinople, so the Emperor pleaded with the Pope who then called the Christian West. You think Crusade is extreme? Why dont we lock all the Muslims in a cage and torture them until they convert? Thats extreme, and something I would never dream of doing.

And what else do you propose to handle the Barbaric ways of their extremists? UN sanctionings? Pah! The UN is NOTHING! Just a bunch of secular communists from Europe and insane facists from Asia.

Logged

"He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death, nor mourning nor crying nor suffering, for the old order of things has passed away."
admiralnick
Cardinal, Editor for Photogalleries
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,880


« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2005, 09:34:01 AM »

How were the crusades carried out by people who were unchristian when they were carried out in the name of the Pope? Or was the Pope unchristian too? And just for reference, I'm not talking about 1024, I'm talking about 1200's AD
Logged

The ORIGINAL: "NULL"
prodromos
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Posts: 1,463

Sydney, Australia


« Reply #29 on: July 27, 2005, 05:23:13 AM »

How were the crusades carried out by people who were unchristian when they were carried out in the name of the Pope? Or was the Pope unchristian too? And just for reference, I'm not talking about 1024, I'm talking about 1200's AD

People throughout history have done evil things in the name of Christ. Does that make their actions christian?
Logged
admiralnick
Cardinal, Editor for Photogalleries
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,880


« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2005, 08:06:37 AM »

We're talking about 2 different things here. You're talking about the actions as being unchristian... That I agree with. I'm saying that the people themselves were of the Christian Faith as a matter of personal belief.
Logged

The ORIGINAL: "NULL"
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,372



« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2005, 08:22:46 AM »

But, I am wondering, has Islam formally apologized for these barbaric acts of looting and raping when the city was taken?

It would appear that, over the long run, the most important forgiveness required of us is that of forgiving those who do not apologize-- especially when we are not the ones who were hurt.
Logged
PrinceMarko
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 26


« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2005, 10:31:34 AM »

I want Constantinople back to the Christians. Then we can discuss Jerusalem, Medina, and other cities.
Logged
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.099 seconds with 60 queries.