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SakranMM
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« on: July 19, 2005, 01:19:05 PM »

I know that Evening Divine Liturgies start in a similar manner as Vespers (i.e. reading of Psalm 103 and "O Lord I have cried...").  At what point does the service "shift" over to the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom?  Please advise.

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« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2005, 05:12:39 PM »

At a vesperal divine liturgy, after "O Gladsome Light" there will be Old Testament readings, if any are appointed, and then the Prokeimenon and Epistle. The rest is the same as a normal liturgy.
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« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2005, 11:31:10 PM »

Right on, Beayf.  The notable exception (thatproves the rule) is the Presanctified Liturgy, where the Vespers portion has a mix of slightly more ancient elements than the Vespers as commonly practiced (like the repetition of "Let my prayers'" which is probably an indication of the mixing of Liturgical traditions in the formation of the service).  Otherwise it is as he described - Vespers until the OT readings (if they are present), followed by the Prokeimenon of the Epistle and then the Gospel and onward just as normal Liturgy.

Of course, there was a period where the evening Liturgy was normal (not the rarity that it can be in many of our Liturgical traditions)...
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« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2005, 11:44:51 PM »

These are rightfully called Vesperal Liturgies and almost always are called to start after noon, unlike the regular Divine Liturgy which generally required to be done before noon, canonically.
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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2005, 10:10:27 PM »

I probably shouldn't go here but......

Michael, Evening Divine Liturgies are an "Antiochian thing" that are to be used on the eve of weekday feast days. Traditionally, the Evening Divine Liturgy, better known as the Vesperal Liturgy, are held up to 4 times per year. That of St. Basil for Holy Thursday and Holy Saturday. That of St. John on Christmas Eve, the eve of the Theophany and on the feast of the Annunciation (if these feasts fall on a Tuesday to Saturday and for the Annunciation may follow even more complicated rules)

Evening Divine Liturgies, other than those indicated above in the Typikon, are an "innovation."

1) So, why are they around?

They were created by the Antiochians (and adopted by some parishes in other jurisdictions) because in our non-Orthodox American (and Canadian culture) we don't have time off nor inclinations to go to these morning services. So, instead of having services attended by one a handful of persons (at best) or, as normally occurred, were not held at all, these services were transferred to the eve (because the liturgical day starts at vespers) so that, not only were the services held, but people could and (ideally) do attend them.

2) Are these Evening Divine Liturgies "wrong"?

Well, yes and no. Based upon the most Typikons (every autocephaleous Church has their own Typikon) yes. However, no parish in any jurisdiction ever follows their typikon  100% correctly.  No, because if we hold Liturgies without people attending them, they are no longer liturgies (work of the people) but Catholic masses!

In many "traditionalist jurisdictions" there is some playing with the services. For example, in Israel and Palestine, where some small parishes share one priest, the Sunday Liturgy is served on Friday (the Islamic day off), Saturday and/or Sunday night (after work, because Sunday is a work day in Muslim and Jewish countries).In the Gulf states, "Sunday services" are routinely held on Friday because that is the only day off to pray!

3) Is there an alternative to the Evening Divine Liturgy?

Sure there is. On some feasts, a Vigil is allowed ( a vigil consists of Vespers, Orthros and the Divine Liturgy in the Greek tradition). Some parishes will only have the Divine Liturgy the evening before. Some will have Orthros and then the Divine Liturgy.  Others have really early Divine Liturgies (like 6am)

Until recently, the Antiochians were adamant that the weekday services where held as Evening Divine Liturgies. Currently, it appears that there is a greater flexibility on this issue. The important point being that the services are held, whether that evening before or the day of.  This issues has been debated to a great deal on several Orthodox sites.To me, whether I like them or not, at least the services are being celebrated.

I hope this helps out.

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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2005, 08:06:37 AM »

One of the good things about the evening Vesperal Liturgy is that those of us who work or go to school can still attend church and receive the Body of Christ. As for it being an antiochian invention, that is something I can't really comment on. I know however that my ROCOR parish has them but doesn't use them anymore because our priest is afraid of doing one. Umm, as for the validity of the service, there is nothing wrong with having an evening liturgy with vespers because the church day starts at sun down. So theoretically you are serving the liturgy the next day in the eyes of the church which is acceptable. A more common shorter version held during lent is called the Presanctified Liturgy and it has some parts of the Liturgy but doesn't include the concecration (It must be done on a previous Sunday).


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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2005, 08:21:15 AM »

An "Antiocian thing"? It seems to me that unlike the Hours, the Divine Liturgy is not really bound in time, since it is a breakthrough of Eternity into time and space. It is merely a tradition (small "t") that the Divine Liturgy take place in the morning. It could theoretically begin at any time of day or night and without any hours immediately preceding it.
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« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2005, 08:33:55 AM »

An "Antiocian thing"? It seems to me that unlike the Hours, the Divine Liturgy is not really bound in time, since it is a breakthrough of Eternity into time and space. It is merely a tradition (small "t") that the Divine Liturgy take place in the morning. It could theoretically begin at any time of day or night and without any hours immediately preceding it.

Well if you want to call the canons "small t tradition", then it is.
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« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2005, 08:38:27 AM »

According to the Canons, you should have short hair in a "papalethra" and be shaven, as should your bishop and all your clergy. And according to the Canons of the sixth Ecumenical Council, you should never administer or receive Holy Communion with a Spoon. How dare you be so uncannonical? Wink
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« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2005, 08:41:15 AM »

And I hope your Bishop arrives at his Church on a white donkey, and that you never are treated by a Jewish doctor- they're both in the Canons too.
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« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2005, 08:55:33 AM »

We never have evening DL at our parish. How long do fast during the day to receive at an evening DL?
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« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2005, 09:50:21 AM »

To which canons in particular are you reffering , Диакон Николай?
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« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2005, 10:40:49 AM »

The last time I checked when it was acceptable to do Divine Liturgy, I got three answers:

1. After Matins; 2. After Vespers; 3. After 6th Hour.

As far as evening Divine Liturgy being an "Antiochian" thing, that statement just denies the historical reality that a. Divine Liturgy used to be celebrated in the evenings regularly and b. that the evening after Vespers is a fully acceptable time to celebrate Divine Liturgy.
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« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2005, 11:22:18 AM »

Wow!  I didn't expect all that...lol.  Well, the reason I asked the question was that on Tuesday evening, we we celebrating the Feast of St. Elias (which fell on the 20th).  I was expecting a Vesperal Liturgy, but when I got there, the priest said, "We're going to do a regular Divine Liturgy."  I remember in the last few years, we would often have Vesperal Liturgies, but for whatever reason, in this year's typikon notes book, it encourages the parishes to hold Liturgies in the daytime when possible.  But hey, thanks for all the interesting feedback.

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« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2005, 03:26:03 PM »

Our bishop doesn't arrive on a white donkey because he has to be picked up at the airport in a Buick.  Evening liturgies.  Saw one in Canada in EP Church in 80s.  I understand the need to get to church during the week when working.  What bothers me is that this will become the norm.  To justify it, some savvy liturgists will look up an ancient practice etc..  Anyway, our Diviine Liturgy takes place at 7 am during the week.  No evening liturgies, apart from those prescribed in the Typikon.  Which canon refers to shaved heads.. I like it!
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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2005, 06:11:34 AM »

ÂÂ  Which canon refers to shaved heads.. I like it!
The 21st Canon of the Sixth Ecumenical Council
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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2005, 06:13:32 AM »

What bothers me is that this will become the norm.ÂÂ  
Divine Liturgy in the Evening once was the norm.
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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2005, 07:51:48 AM »

As long as we're being canonical, any of us who are orthodox that have set foot in a non-orthodox Church should all be excommunicated.  Shocked
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« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2005, 08:33:07 AM »

As long as we're being canonical, any of us who are orthodox that have set foot in a non-orthodox Church should all be excommunicated.ÂÂ  Shocked

LOL Cheesy
What is even more astounding is that we should be excommunicated every time we receive Holy Communion with the Spoon! (101st Canon of the Sixth Ecumenical Council). We should place our right hand on top of our left and receive the Body of Christ into our hand then consume It, and then drink the Blood of Christ directly from the Chalice- like many Non-Chalcedons, High Anglicans and Post-Vatican II Roman Catholics do.

Quote
"When you approach the Mysteries extend your palms, the left hand should be placed below the right hand and hollowing the palm accept thus the Body of Christ"
- St. Cyril of Jerusalem, quoted in The Rudder, p310.

We are all uncanonical! And yet our "uncanonical" Churches seem to keep producing Saints.....

The reality of course is that the Canons did not descend from Heaven on a parachute as some would have us beleive. The Church (and ONLY the Church) is free to interpret, apply and dispense the Canons.

Unfortunately, some turn the canons into "cannons"- a weapon to be turned against anyone who disagrees with them, and who doesn't accept their Church as legitimate and not a schism.
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« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2005, 11:25:57 AM »

Right on, brother man!  ozgeorge makes an excellent point - when studying the canons, one needs to understand that the sources of the canons and their authority are many and varied - and some are not as simple or straightforward as others.  Whomever decides that they need to apply all the canons in the strictest sense is obviously substituting themselves for Christ, because He is the Head of the Church, and the Church has decided in its wisdom, compassion, and adaptation to the times to not follow all the canons.  It is not a case of disregarding them out of contempt, laziness, or worse, but instead an understanding that the canons are incarnations of eternal truths that often are tailored to a particular day and age.

That said, I'm not necessarily a fan of evening Liturgies, only because one is supposed to fast all day before Liturgy (no matter when it occurs), but I am far too weak for that.  Mornings are nice - only go a few hours without food.  But the evenings are tough - some end up following the guideline that the stomach should be empty, thus only needing to fast for 5 or 6 hours ahead of time.  This is a point to remember when scheduling them.

But I do like the fact that, by practicing an occasional evening Liturgy, we continue a good Liturgical practice and show the people the great versatility in our Liturgical Life.  Plus, the Vesperal Liturgy can be a spiritual shot in the arm if one finds themselves in a rut.

Let's not, though, chalk up the practice of Vesperal Liturgy in the evening to being some sort of modern innovation or some movement of laziness or convenience; this just disregards and disrespects the Liturgical tradition of our Church.
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« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2005, 12:13:41 PM »

My concern is that some Bishop will find a canon to justify a minimized Orthodoxy.  If you look at who is doing it, it might give you a clue to what their innovative agenda is. If a bishop is truly inspired by the Holy Spirit being a true monk, ascetic etc, then there would be no concern.   
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« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2005, 01:15:50 PM »

My concern is that some Bishop will find a canon to justify a minimized Orthodoxy.  If you look at who is doing it, it might give you a clue to what their innovative agenda is. If a bishop is truly inspired by the Holy Spirit being a true monk, ascetic etc, then there would be no concern.  ÃƒÆ’‚Â

Indeed, this is the chief potential (and often, actual!) problem. Too often we're busy rattiling off that the mantra du jour ("The canons are guideposts, the canons are guideposts!") to note that the point of guideposts is to keep us within the bounds of the road, not to justify our walking outside it.

It would be nice to have a codified set of laws periodically updated, such as the Roman Catholics have in the Code of Canon Law, but it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to holy and godbearing Fathers that the Church should have a diverse body of canonical texts in which obsolence and relevance co-exist. Alas, the temptation to make the canons the absolute law of the Church it too great as it is! And this, undoubtedly, would be to mistake the means for the end. The canons are there to guide the praxis of the Church today, which has developed progressively (and not regressively, as many are wont to think) throughout the centuries.
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