Topic: Is this forum biased towards....

[Anastasios]

Since GisC has said that our site is pro-Russian, anti-Greek, and Old Calendarist, while others accuse it of being too ecuemenical, etc., I thought I'd give you all an opportunity to tell me what you think.ÂÂ  This is just for fun though

[TomS]

That's silly. The only bias on this site, is its bias toward Orthodoxy as the True religion!ÂÂ  

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

Hey why can I not pick more than one option? 

[Jennifer]

I don't know if I'd use the term "bias" but it seems to me that more of us are exposed to the Russian tradition than the Greek tradition.  I think that's because the majority of us are converts.  (I don't know the actual numbers but it seems like most of us are converts.)  An inquirer will probably feel  more comfortable in a parish where the liturgy is in english.  We'd probably feel more comfortable in a pan-Orthodox or non-ethnic parish.  Therefore we're more likely to end up at an Antiochian or OCA parish. 

I don't think this means that we're anti-Greek but rather that many of us feel that we would not be as welcome in a GOA parish as in an Antiochian or OCA parish. 

[ozgeorge]

Bias not detected. Just a few posters with their own biased agendas.

"You know, their lives ran in circles so small
Ah, they thought they'd seen it all
And they could not make a place for a girl who'd seen the ocean...."
                                  -Michelle Shocked, "Memories of East Texas"

[choirfiend]

Amendment--I agree with Oz.

[StephenG]

On first acquaintance I sense a very worldly, sarcastic and a tendency to witticism (misspelt) if I sense a biase at all. In some arenas that might not be a bad thing. On a Christian site I wonder whether these qualities are not 'out of place'.

As to the the more literal question being asked, I cannot answer as I have too little exposure to OC.net to express an opinion.

[GiC]

Upon further reflection, I think the word I was looking for in regard to the bias of this site is 'fundamentalism.' Above I cast my vote for an 'old calendarist' bias, which is not exactly correct, but is more fair than a blanket statement about the Russians; while the russians may be known for austerity and strictness compared to the Greeks, it is not universal. Too bad I hadn't so focused my thoughts earlier before you threw up this poll...oh well, that will teach me to write before I think the situation through thoroughly

The Old Calendarists are certainly fundamentalists, but fundamentalists are not limited to their Ranks, and thus I observe it not only from active old calendarists or their Sympathizers, but from some people from other Jurisdictions as well; that, of course, also seems to be mixed with a very Nationalistic (Specifically America on this site, for obvious reasons) view of Orthodoxy.

[GiC]

On first acquaintance I sense a very worldly, sarcastic and a tendency to witticism (misspelt) if I sense a biase at all. In some arenas that might not be a bad thing. On a Christian site I wonder whether these qualities are not 'out of place'.

As to the the more literal question being asked, I cannot answer as I have too little exposure to OC.net to express an opinion.

It just means we like you ...you're supposed to respond with a witty and sarcastic remark in classic Voltairean style

[Anastasios]

Upon further reflection, I think the word I was looking for in regard to the bias of this site is 'fundamentalism.' Above I cast my vote for an 'old calendarist' bias, which is not exactly correct, but is more fair than a blanket statement about the Russians; while the russians may be known for austerity and strictness compared to the Greeks, it is not universal. Too bad I hadn't so focused my thoughts earlier before you threw up this poll...oh well, that will teach me to write before I think the situation through thoroughly

The Old Calendarists are certainly fundamentalists, but fundamentalists are not limited to their Ranks, and thus I observe it not only from active old calendarists or their Sympathizers, but from some people from other Jurisdictions as well; that, of course, also seems to be mixed with a very Nationalistic (Specifically America on this site, for obvious reasons) view of Orthodoxy.

As you can guess, I would disagree.  I don't think that all Old Calendarists are fundamentalists, just as I don't think that all fundamentalists are Old Calendarist.  For instance, many Old Calendarists live a life that is surprisingly just like yours, they go to movies, watch tv, can tolerate diversity of opinion, the women don't all go around in headscarves 24/7 and still wear makeup, etc., the men don't grow out beards and walk around with prayer rope in hand every moment of the day.  Of course I am not saying any of the above is bad, but rather I think we can agree there is a mindset where these pious customs are held up as mandatory.  If it's not clear to others what I am saying, you will get no argument from me that it would be a noble thing to do to give up television and devote such time to prayer, but the moment you say this is the "Orthodox thing to do" and criticize those who don't you have a problem.

What then of non-fundamentalist Old Calendarists? Such persons live a normal Orthodox life just like a New Calendarist but believe the Old Calendar is the Church Calendar and that ecumenism is a heresy meriting walling off. You will undoubtedly disagree which is fine, but the point is that not everyone in the Old Calendar camp is crazy, fundamentalist, etc.  Non-fundamentatlistic Old Calendarists go about their business living the Orthodox faith as they see it, hoping for Church unity based on truth.  No hatred, no Amish-style living, no angry tirades.  Just a joy in living the traditional Orthodox faith and a hope that others will share the appreciation.

Anastasios

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

The Old Calendarists are certainly fundamentalists, but fundamentalists are not limited to their Ranks, and thus I observe it not only from active old calendarists or their Sympathizers, but from some people from other Jurisdictions as well; that, of course, also seems to be mixed with a very Nationalistic (Specifically America on this site, for obvious reasons) view of Orthodoxy.

Since you are the only person on this forum I have ever seen called guilty of phyletism, all I can say is, pot kettle, black, Mr. Greek is Christian.

Personally I think StephenG has a very good point.

[TomS]

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6679.msg87437#msg87437 date=1121651687]Personally I think StephenG has a very good point.
[/quote]

Well, I could refer him to another Orthodox website that in the last year found a pole and stuck it....  well, you get my drift 

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

Well, I could refer him to another Orthodox website that in the last year found a pole and stuck it....ÂÂ  well, you get my driftÂÂ  

Well ThomasS, remember you too have changed over the last 2 years, a post from you in that forum in 2003: "Sometimes, because I am a horrible sinner and really, must not truly love the Lord, or I would not do this -- I skip my morning prayers.", compared to now where you say you do not go to Church and do not believe that Orthodoxy is THE Church, just a man-made religion. When YOU change perception of others and places will change too.

Of course we would love to have StephenG there since he takes his Faith seriously and does not care for secularism.

[TomS]

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6679.msg87439#msg87439 date=1121653508]
Well ThomasS, remember you too have changed over the last 2 years, [/quote]

Very, very true.

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6679.msg87439#msg87439 date=1121653508]
Of course we would love to have StephenG there since he takes his Faith seriously and does not care for secularism.
[/quote]

Well, shucks StephenG, c'mon down!! We could use some new people over there!

[Strelets]

I'd challenge you to find another board more balanced than this one. And if you can't find one, then fork out the money to a web hosting provider and start your own community. It's not as easy as you imagine to get a vibrant board going, and especially one that pleases everyone.

[cizinec]

Everybody seems to think it's balanced except . . .

10% who say it's favors Old Calendarists
10% who say it's ecumenical


Huh.

[Asteriktos]

When YOU change perception of others and places will change too.

Good point A year and a half ago I thought this forum was populated by sincere individuals, but nonetheless biased in favor of ecumenism. Now I don't think that there's any particular bias that is discernable board-wide.

[Fr. David]

CRAP!!!

I HIT THE WRONG ONE IN THE POLL!

Oh well.  Meant to check the "No Bias" one... 

[GiC]

As you can guess, I would disagree.ÂÂ  I don't think that all Old Calendarists are fundamentalists, just as I don't think that all fundamentalists are Old Calendarist...

I'm not suggesting that they are all as radically fundamentalist as you imply I am suggesting; but one who does break communion with their Patriarch over issues of Church discipline can certainly be said to be fundamentalist to a certain Degree. I havent  known many Old Calendarists, but I'm sure most are good and honest peoplem, but they all tend to take issues of church discipline to extremes (by virtue of breaking with the Patriarch over the issues).

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6679.msg87437#msg87437 date=1121651687]
Since you are the only person on this forum I have ever seen called guilty of phyletism, all I can say is, pot kettle, black, Mr. Greek is Christian.
[/quote]

Accusations that continue to baffle me, I seem to be accused of phyletism because I argue that the Oecumenical Throne should have authority, without regard to the ethnicity of the faithful. Which is exactly what the Synod that ruled against phyletism argued (arguing against the Bulgarians who thought they should rule themselves rather than be subject to a Greek Patriarch).

I'd challenge you to find another board more balanced than this one. And if you can't find one, then fork out the money to a web hosting provider and start your own community. It's not as easy as you imagine to get a vibrant board going, and especially one that pleases everyone.

Just because I believe the Board is biased is not necessily a reason for me to leave. The Admins are fair and allow me to present my point, that's all I can ask, those who come to the board come by their own free will, they are not dragged here by the Admins, and the Admins are not (severly) censoring anyone; but even if the Board is fair, the regulars can still be biased. Plus, since it is biased, that just leaves more good debates to keep my interest

[GiC]

CRAP!!!

I HIT THE WRONG ONE IN THE POLL!

Oh well.ÂÂ  Meant to check the "No Bias" one...ÂÂ  

Well, at least your selection is liable to generate more discussion than yet another vote in the 'no bias' column would have

P.S. Not even the Moderators can change their Votes once cast? Hmmm...

[Anastasios]

I'd challenge you to find another board more balanced than this one. And if you can't find one, then fork out the money to a web hosting provider and start your own community. It's not as easy as you imagine to get a vibrant board going, and especially one that pleases everyone.

THANK YOU. THANK YOU!!!!

[Anastasios]

I can change my vote. But not the moderators. BWWUHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA lol.

Seriously Pedro if you want to change your vote hit me up

[StephenG]

From a perspective of limited acquaitance the forum appears lively, to draw in people from a wide spectrum and is attractively presented as well as being assessible.

True Christianity is not a religion among other religions or one of the three Abrahamic faiths or about being nice, although the latter is quality with its own merits. True Christianity is following Him who came that all might rise again. It it The Way, The Truth and The Light and not a Way, a Truth and a Light among many.

Secularism is a potent force and one that impacts on believers. It mores and values are not necessarily those of a Christian. Just as when He told us to DRINK of HIS BLOOD, imagine a Jew addressing other Jews 2,000 and talking of drinking blood! It would have been a hard thing for them to hear, given that meat was carefully prepared to extract from every bit of blood possible.

If this Forum is biased, then I hope it is biased or rather articulates Christian Teaching, Christian Values and Christian Beliefs.

[PhosZoe]

There is really not a bias towards expression but this forum seems to be populated by White, Ex Protestant, Male, Arch Conservative and southern. Which colors the worldview a bit but I do my best to read past the obvious bias.

edited: Looked at the member map.

[Veniamin]

There is really not a bias towards expression but this forum seems to be populated by White, Ex Protestant, Male, Arch Conservative and southern. Which colors the worldview a bit but I do my best to read past the obvious bias.

Southern???  Have you looked at the member map?  Other than a pocket of about five here in Texas, the majority of U.S. members are in the northeast, with the west being the second largest grouping.

[PhosZoe]

Southern???  Have you looked at the member map?  Other than a pocket of about five here in Texas, the majority of U.S. members are in the northeast, with the west being the second largest grouping.

Yes I did, but the forums IMHO, is dominated by white, arch conservative, ex protestant and male. I do believe there is a good representation of the various expressions of Orthodoxy. It's difficult to make a forum that is completely balanced and unbiased. Bias happens, I am capable of reading past it. 

[Kosmas]

Hi

I'm probably too fresh to know since I'm a newby. But admittedly it's quite upsetting when someone from the Greek Orthodox Church enters a room and is treated almost like a leper by a group of OCA or other Orthodox group supporters and vice versa.

In fact I remember being invited to a house where Fr Thomas Hopko was visiting. He came to our Seminary/Theological college in Australia and everyone loved him, but at this 'party' I was made to feel like a leper. I will never forget it.

It was like "What the hec are you guys doing here, you guys are our arch-enemies." I don't know why it was this way except the fact that the Orthodox Church of America was now established in Australia - Fr Thomas in fact made it clear that he was personally against this non-canonical decision. OCA of Australia? HMMM. Anyway I didn't care about this at the time. But this situation, I guess, is similar to what the Gentiles were probably experiencing before St Paul confronted St Peter for favouring "his own".

Now off onto a different topic why can't there be ACCEPTANCE of diversity of tradition within the Orthodox Church? The Orthodox Liturgies were never standardised BTW and there is diversity in the services of the various jurisdictions right now. I suppose the Byzantine music is different from the Russian polyphony, I suppose we accept these differences, but there are other differences too.

So in Greek Orthodoxy there is no such thing as SOBRONOST, Greek Orthodox argue that there is no "Collective Conscience of the Church ", only personal conscience...however they agree there is an Ecclesiastical conscience in other words a Phronema (mindset) of the Church. I don't understand enough to argue either way, but the thing is that even in our theology there is bound to be a change and a different path since we are dealing with different languages, different cultures and environments we live in. You can't expext everything to be to our liking, so in a way, diversity has to exist.

So the problem is that we expect the West to accept all our traditions our way of worship our way of chanting, our iconography our Priest vestments and our excentric Church services our language and way of thinking. It seems an impossible task.

Now that's some food for thought, what are we to do? How can we make Orthodoxy more "user friendly"? And if we do what sort of Pandora's box are we opening?

[Strelets]

I'm intrigued...

1. How do you know the skin color of most board members? I wasn't aware cookies stored that information.

2. What's the difference between an arch conservative versus a regular conservative? Other than a couple of members who've expressed southern reconstructionist sympathies, I don't see a "dominant" southern arch conservative group.

3. Did I miss a poll that determined most members are ex-Protestant?  Is being ex-Protestant worse than being an ex-wiccan? (Or an ex-atheist, which would be me.)

[PhosZoe]

First, if you're address me then please quote me.

I'm intrigued...

1. How do you know the skin color of most board members? I wasn't aware cookies stored that information.

There was a thread quite some time ago in which people posted pictures of themselves. I'll do my best to dig it up. Also, reading people profiles.

2. What's the difference between an arch conservative versus a regular conservative? Other than a couple of members who've expressed southern reconstructionist sympathies, I don't see a "dominant" southern arch conservative "dominating" group.

Arch conservatives- a consevative that is more conservative than a regular conservative? Politically, I tend to be a moderate to left. I find the uber-right wing stance to be frusterating and quite frankly annoying.

3. Did I miss a poll that determined most members are ex-Protestant?  Is being ex-Protestant worse than being an ex-wiccan? (Or an ex-atheist, which would be me.)

There was a poll a long time ago. I can't remember how it was titled but it was something to the order of what were you before you were Orthodox. I attempted a search but can't seem to hit the title correctly.

I'm willing to wager that at least 50%-75% of those who partipate on this board are A. White B. Male C. Formerly Evangelical. D. John Birch style conservative.  It's not to say there are many who participate her are the exception to the rule but I think the aformentioned color the "worldview" of this board.  I don't think that it's a BAD thing to be an ex protestant. I understand that many of the members are of this background and I am able to understand that the bias exists and can A. take to heart or ignore what I just read. 

[Robert]

White
Male
Ex-RCC
Hardly John Birch Conservative

[Robert]

but i like kentucky bourbon so i guess i am southern in spirit if not in flesh.

[GiC]

White
Male
Ex-Calvinist (protestant, but not evangelical)
John Birch is far too liberal for me, but then again Carl Marx is far too Conservative for me...they say that if you go far enough to the right or left the posistions eventually meet, that's where I am on the political spectrum; soldily to the right of the conservatives and left of the liberals

I think you put forth too many parameters to constitute half of the board, but I think you are correct when you refer to the board being dominated by converts, and converts tend to be more radical and 'conservative' than those who were born into the faith, they also tend in introduce cultural elements of their former religion. That's not to say that ethnic Orthodox Christians are immune to this, just that it is more prevalent amongst converts.

As far as the number of Southrons on this board, I believe you will find that many are simply Southron Simpathizers, my family hasn't been anywhere South of the border states (unless you count Southern California ) for about 100 years. And while I am unable to speak for the others on this board, I am a Monarchist first and foremost, and simply view opposition to the Confederacy while supporting the Revolution to by pure hypocracy; but in the End, both North and South share in the Sin of Rebellion against the Crown, and whatever ill befalls either is ultimatley nothing more than reaping the fruits of Rebellion; I would have simply prefered to see the hypocrites in the North reap those fruits, the justice would have been more poetic.

God Save the Queen!

but i like kentucky bourbon so i guess i am southern in spirit if not in flesh.

Well, heck, if that's all there is to being Southron, I'm more Southron than any of you, regardless of where you were born

[Asteriktos]

White
Male
Ex-Protestant (Fundamentalist and Wesleyan Holiness)
Arch-Conservative (Socially); Moderate-Conservative (Fiscally)

Come on brethren and sistren, PhosZoe was just stating a fact. It's not like she said something subjective like "Cradles are better Orthodox than converts". This forum is predominantly white, male, conservative, and probably even ex-protestant. No big deal. It is what it is.

And for the record, I'm a proud Western Pennsylvanian (ie. yankee), and I hated living in the South (though, I'm told, that Florida doesn't really count as being Southern *shrugs*).

[PhosZoe]

Come on brethren and sistren, PhosZoe was just stating a fact. It's not like she said something subjective like "Cradles are better Orthodox than converts". This forum is predominantly white, male, conservative, and probably even ex-protestant. No big deal. It is what it is.

Exactly! A bias isn't always a bad thing, they happen. People need to understand they exist and take it for what it is. Besides, it's very difficult to represent all facets, expressions and traditions of Orthodoxy evenly whether it be on a message board or IRL.

[Strelets]

Ouch. Hey, I was only intrigued at the sampling size employed in the analysis.

Melanin challenged
Genetically pre-disposed towards facial hair and power tools
Burkean conservative/classical liberal (that's Edmund Burke, not J. Birch)
Recovering atheist
Midwestern wheat-eater

[SouthSerb99]

Under terrible duress I was forced to answer the question, but I would like to note my objection for Anastasios' failure to include the Serbian bias on these boards. 

I find Sin-Vladimirov, Cizinec, aserb, PhosZoe and the rest of the Serbs unbearable!!! 

As a general rule I think the board is very balanced.  Sure everyone comes in with a bit of "built in" bias, but I think it is pretty even over here.  Sometimes, the debates are just plain entertaining...

1.  EA vs. Deedat

2.  EA vs. GiC

3.  okay... EA vs. anyone (I just enjoy reading his stuff, even if I disagree)

4.   TomS' constant positivity 

5.   Orthodoc's "one liners"

6.   Cizinec's sarcasm

Awe shucks, I just can't get enough of you guys (and gals) - lest I be accused of having an anti-women bias. 

[Ebor]

Alas and alack!  I am a failure! <dramatic gestures here>   

Neither I nor the other GH/Anglicans entertain SouthSerb99.   

 

The admins let *Anglicans* in here.  What kind of bias is that?   \

Ebor

[Veniamin]

The admins let *Anglicans* in here.  What kind of bias is that?  ÃƒÆ’‚ \

An Ecumenist one, apparently. 

Don't worry, work hard enough and you can become an ex-Anglican like me. 

[Ebor]

An Ecumenist one, apparently.ÂÂ  

Tut, tut! "Ecumenist"?!?  No perjorative labels now.    or how "tolerant" or something like that? 

(and I reckon I'll still be Anglican for a while yet. but thanks.)

Ebor

[SeanMc]

(and I reckon I'll still be Anglican for a while yet. but thanks.)

You wouldn't be saying that if you were an Anglican here. 

[Ebor]

You wouldn't be saying that if you were an Anglican here.ÂÂ  

I'm not an Anglican?!?ÂÂ  Did something sneak up on me while I was fighting with the plumbing?!?  Was I "Sleep-converting"??ÂÂ  

Mongo not understand.

  

Ebor

[SeanMc]

I'm not an Anglican?!?  Did something sneak up on me while I was fighting with the plumbing?!?  Was I "Sleep-converting"?? 

I mean an Anglican here, in the Diocese of New Westminster.   

Here, anything goes. Gay marriage, grape juice for communion, shutting down parishes that disagree with said gay marriage.

[Ebor]

ah.  Sorry.  I took "here" to be the forum rather then any 3-dimensional locale on Earth.

What a relief that that's cleared up.  I don't have to turn in my BCP and "Tallis Scholars"

  

Ebor

[admiralnick]

White
Male
Cradle Orthodox
Midwest Dweller

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

but i like kentucky bourbon so i guess i am southern in spirit if not in flesh.

You live in Carolina! That makes you "Southern".