Author Topic: How to Address Transgender  (Read 18356 times)

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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #90 on: October 09, 2015, 01:24:25 AM »
Biblically- and Patristically-speaking, there is no such thing as "Transgender," "Same Sex Attraction," "Homosexuality," or any of the modern lingo which has been developed to explain and categorize human sexuality.

That should give us 'red flags' as Christians to why this suddenly became into being even though same-sex contact is probably about as old as recorded humanity.  What has changed about humanity?

I would posit that not much has changed... just the lingo.

So, my theory is that Orthodox Christianity follows the Biblical language of 'appetites' and 'desires,' whereas the psychological model of the modern world has become about 'attraction.'  There's a difference: one is pushing and the other is pulling.

In the case of 'attraction,' the person becomes a passive player in his sexuality, almost a victim as it were to what draws him.  'Appetites' are about the self-will and what one seeks to 'consume.'  The former are, by definition, much harder to manage.  The latter, while also difficult, are something one must (according to tradition and many forms of social restraint) fight against if not completely tame.

The modern psychological model then makes 'attraction' a matter of psychology (thanks Freud!), since one must come to some kind of understanding about these mythical forces of attraction.  Psychology may also deal with how these attractions develop certain appetites, but the appetites are never fully addressed because psychology deals with thinking your way through problems, and appetites are, by nature, not really subject to thought (i.e. you can't really think your way out of needing food or air).

So, in the end, attractions are out of psychology's reach and so we end up having to surrender to them.

The Christian model is that sexuality is an appetite that can be tamed though not entirely eliminated.  How does one go about taming appetites in Christianity?  Well, you can rule out psychology, because we have been around longer than that (poor Freud!).

Appetites dwell in the realm of the senses and sensory processing.  Asceticism is a sensory struggle, not a psychological one.  It is about learning to endure the pain of deprivation, not thinking one's way out of it.  You suffer and it hurts, but over time you build up a tolerance.

So, what about all this 'homosexuality' and 'transgender' stuff?  Well, by extension, these are all sensory problems.  There is, within each person, an appetite for sexual congress.  The sensory process is about determining who 'I' am in comparison with 'you.'  Eyes, ears, and all the other material information data collection organs work with the mind to define who we are and who others are.

If that complex sensor process because damaged or is altered, then one's sense of self will be distorted and one's appetites will not be fulfilled properly.

How many of us have heard how gays or gender-confused people talk about growing up 'feeling different?'  How can you say you always felt different if you never knew what it was to feel normal?  There's your dead giveaway: feeling not normal or not right when you have no experience of feeling right to begin with.  Thus, we are talking about a sensory problem.

Christianity teaches that we must overcome our sensory system to a greater extent.  We must learn to 'distrust' it, since it can tell us bad things 'feel good.'

The modern world, having lost this paradigm, is now in complete disorder.

Too bad so many Orthodox have bought into the modern lingo about sexuality.  Now, they really can't even teach otherwise, no matter how much they pound their chests about 'modern immorality.'  As long as you are still talking about 'homosexuality' and 'SSA,' you will always loose.  The language is in their favor.

The Christian model of appetites

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Offline Opus118

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #91 on: October 09, 2015, 01:26:24 AM »
Don't Adam and Eve prove there can only be man and woman? I don't know how intersex fit into that though.

Was Adam a man before there was woman?
This seems like a question that should be mounted on the thinking dinosaur meme.


Just stop this Trisagion.
If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #92 on: October 09, 2015, 01:46:18 AM »
Biblically- and Patristically-speaking, there is no such thing as "Transgender," "Same Sex Attraction," "Homosexuality," or any of the modern lingo which has been developed to explain and categorize human sexuality.

That should give us 'red flags' as Christians to why this suddenly became into being even though same-sex contact is probably about as old as recorded humanity.  What has changed about humanity?

I would posit that not much has changed... just the lingo.

So, my theory is that Orthodox Christianity follows the Biblical language of 'appetites' and 'desires,' whereas the psychological model of the modern world has become about 'attraction.'  There's a difference: one is pushing and the other is pulling.

In the case of 'attraction,' the person becomes a passive player in his sexuality, almost a victim as it were to what draws him.  'Appetites' are about the self-will and what one seeks to 'consume.'  The former are, by definition, much harder to manage.  The latter, while also difficult, are something one must (according to tradition and many forms of social restraint) fight against if not completely tame.

The modern psychological model then makes 'attraction' a matter of psychology (thanks Freud!), since one must come to some kind of understanding about these mythical forces of attraction.  Psychology may also deal with how these attractions develop certain appetites, but the appetites are never fully addressed because psychology deals with thinking your way through problems, and appetites are, by nature, not really subject to thought (i.e. you can't really think your way out of needing food or air).

So, in the end, attractions are out of psychology's reach and so we end up having to surrender to them.

The Christian model is that sexuality is an appetite that can be tamed though not entirely eliminated.  How does one go about taming appetites in Christianity?  Well, you can rule out psychology, because we have been around longer than that (poor Freud!).

Appetites dwell in the realm of the senses and sensory processing.  Asceticism is a sensory struggle, not a psychological one.  It is about learning to endure the pain of deprivation, not thinking one's way out of it.  You suffer and it hurts, but over time you build up a tolerance.

So, what about all this 'homosexuality' and 'transgender' stuff?  Well, by extension, these are all sensory problems.  There is, within each person, an appetite for sexual congress.  The sensory process is about determining who 'I' am in comparison with 'you.'  Eyes, ears, and all the other material information data collection organs work with the mind to define who we are and who others are.

If that complex sensor process because damaged or is altered, then one's sense of self will be distorted and one's appetites will not be fulfilled properly.

How many of us have heard how gays or gender-confused people talk about growing up 'feeling different?'  How can you say you always felt different if you never knew what it was to feel normal?  There's your dead giveaway: feeling not normal or not right when you have no experience of feeling right to begin with.  Thus, we are talking about a sensory problem.

Christianity teaches that we must overcome our sensory system to a greater extent.  We must learn to 'distrust' it, since it can tell us bad things 'feel good.'

The modern world, having lost this paradigm, is now in complete disorder.

Too bad so many Orthodox have bought into the modern lingo about sexuality.  Now, they really can't even teach otherwise, no matter how much they pound their chests about 'modern immorality.'  As long as you are still talking about 'homosexuality' and 'SSA,' you will always loose.  The language is in their favor.

The Christian model of appetites


Fr. there is a lot here, I wish I could address it all. But I'm not sure about the psychology (in the old sense of the word) that you're presenting as Orthodox here. A lot of it sounds quite modern to me. So perhaps you could help me out be sketching out more clearly how you think we relate to the world in terms of this psychology.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 01:48:37 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #93 on: October 09, 2015, 03:34:35 AM »
Biblically- and Patristically-speaking, there is no such thing as "Transgender," "Same Sex Attraction," "Homosexuality," or any of the modern lingo which has been developed to explain and categorize human sexuality.

That should give us 'red flags' as Christians to why this suddenly became into being even though same-sex contact is probably about as old as recorded humanity.  What has changed about humanity?

I would posit that not much has changed... just the lingo.

So, my theory is that Orthodox Christianity follows the Biblical language of 'appetites' and 'desires,' whereas the psychological model of the modern world has become about 'attraction.'  There's a difference: one is pushing and the other is pulling.

In the case of 'attraction,' the person becomes a passive player in his sexuality, almost a victim as it were to what draws him.  'Appetites' are about the self-will and what one seeks to 'consume.'  The former are, by definition, much harder to manage.  The latter, while also difficult, are something one must (according to tradition and many forms of social restraint) fight against if not completely tame.

The modern psychological model then makes 'attraction' a matter of psychology (thanks Freud!), since one must come to some kind of understanding about these mythical forces of attraction.  Psychology may also deal with how these attractions develop certain appetites, but the appetites are never fully addressed because psychology deals with thinking your way through problems, and appetites are, by nature, not really subject to thought (i.e. you can't really think your way out of needing food or air).

So, in the end, attractions are out of psychology's reach and so we end up having to surrender to them.

The Christian model is that sexuality is an appetite that can be tamed though not entirely eliminated.  How does one go about taming appetites in Christianity?  Well, you can rule out psychology, because we have been around longer than that (poor Freud!).

Appetites dwell in the realm of the senses and sensory processing.  Asceticism is a sensory struggle, not a psychological one.  It is about learning to endure the pain of deprivation, not thinking one's way out of it.  You suffer and it hurts, but over time you build up a tolerance.

So, what about all this 'homosexuality' and 'transgender' stuff?  Well, by extension, these are all sensory problems.  There is, within each person, an appetite for sexual congress.  The sensory process is about determining who 'I' am in comparison with 'you.'  Eyes, ears, and all the other material information data collection organs work with the mind to define who we are and who others are.

If that complex sensor process because damaged or is altered, then one's sense of self will be distorted and one's appetites will not be fulfilled properly.

How many of us have heard how gays or gender-confused people talk about growing up 'feeling different?'  How can you say you always felt different if you never knew what it was to feel normal?  There's your dead giveaway: feeling not normal or not right when you have no experience of feeling right to begin with.  Thus, we are talking about a sensory problem.

Christianity teaches that we must overcome our sensory system to a greater extent.  We must learn to 'distrust' it, since it can tell us bad things 'feel good.'

The modern world, having lost this paradigm, is now in complete disorder.

Too bad so many Orthodox have bought into the modern lingo about sexuality.  Now, they really can't even teach otherwise, no matter how much they pound their chests about 'modern immorality.'  As long as you are still talking about 'homosexuality' and 'SSA,' you will always loose.  The language is in their favor.

The Christian model of appetites


Fr. there is a lot here, I wish I could address it all. But I'm not sure about the psychology (in the old sense of the word) that you're presenting as Orthodox here. A lot of it sounds quite modern to me. So perhaps you could help me out be sketching out more clearly how you think we relate to the world in terms of this psychology.

In addition to this, I'm also a tad confused by the apparent conflation of 'transgender' with 'homosexuality'
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #94 on: October 09, 2015, 08:55:45 AM »
I would really like to see chromosomes get"reassigned"

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #95 on: October 09, 2015, 09:28:29 AM »
Don't Adam and Eve prove there can only be man and woman? I don't know how intersex fit into that though.

Was Adam a man before there was woman?
This seems like a question that should be mounted on the thinking dinosaur meme.


Just stop this Trisagion.
Let's be honest. Its a stupid question (no offense James). The question assumes a very literal understanding of Genesis and it places biological sex as being contingent on humanity. To put it bluntly, even if we do grant the assumption on the literal understanding where God poofed everything into the world in six literal days and then made woman at some point later, there would still be millions of animals with penises and millions of animals with vaginas. Thus, a human with a penis would still be a man even if there was no corresponding human with a vagina.

I felt snark was a quicker way to respond than actually have to explain its logical fallacy. Apparently I was wrong.
God bless!

Offline Opus118

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #96 on: October 09, 2015, 10:48:00 AM »
Don't Adam and Eve prove there can only be man and woman? I don't know how intersex fit into that though.

Was Adam a man before there was woman?
This seems like a question that should be mounted on the thinking dinosaur meme.
[censored]

Just stop this Trisagion.
Let's be honest. Its a stupid question (no offense James). The question assumes a very literal understanding of Genesis and it places biological sex as being contingent on humanity. To put it bluntly, even if we do grant the assumption on the literal understanding where God poofed everything into the world in six literal days and then made woman at some point later, there would still be millions of animals with penises and millions of animals with vaginas. Thus, a human with a penis would still be a man even if there was no corresponding human with a vagina.

I felt snark was a quicker way to respond than actually have to explain its logical fallacy. Apparently I was wrong.

It is the color scheme. It is nauseating. I was eating ice cream for the first time in three months.

Does this work instead?

If you cannot remember everything, instead of everything, I beg you, remember this without fail, that not to share our own wealth with the poor is theft from the poor and deprivation of their means of life; we do not possess our own wealth but theirs.  If we have this attitude, we will certainly offer our money; and by nourishing Christ in poverty here and laying up great profit hereafter, we will be able to attain the good things which are to come. - St. John Chrysostom

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #97 on: October 09, 2015, 10:53:39 AM »
Biblically- and Patristically-speaking, there is no such thing as "Transgender," "Same Sex Attraction," "Homosexuality," or any of the modern lingo which has been developed to explain and categorize human sexuality.

That should give us 'red flags' as Christians to why this suddenly became into being even though same-sex contact is probably about as old as recorded humanity.  What has changed about humanity?

I would posit that not much has changed... just the lingo.

So, my theory is that Orthodox Christianity follows the Biblical language of 'appetites' and 'desires,' whereas the psychological model of the modern world has become about 'attraction.'  There's a difference: one is pushing and the other is pulling.

In the case of 'attraction,' the person becomes a passive player in his sexuality, almost a victim as it were to what draws him.  'Appetites' are about the self-will and what one seeks to 'consume.'  The former are, by definition, much harder to manage.  The latter, while also difficult, are something one must (according to tradition and many forms of social restraint) fight against if not completely tame.

The modern psychological model then makes 'attraction' a matter of psychology (thanks Freud!), since one must come to some kind of understanding about these mythical forces of attraction.  Psychology may also deal with how these attractions develop certain appetites, but the appetites are never fully addressed because psychology deals with thinking your way through problems, and appetites are, by nature, not really subject to thought (i.e. you can't really think your way out of needing food or air).

So, in the end, attractions are out of psychology's reach and so we end up having to surrender to them.

The Christian model is that sexuality is an appetite that can be tamed though not entirely eliminated.  How does one go about taming appetites in Christianity?  Well, you can rule out psychology, because we have been around longer than that (poor Freud!).

Appetites dwell in the realm of the senses and sensory processing.  Asceticism is a sensory struggle, not a psychological one.  It is about learning to endure the pain of deprivation, not thinking one's way out of it.  You suffer and it hurts, but over time you build up a tolerance.

So, what about all this 'homosexuality' and 'transgender' stuff?  Well, by extension, these are all sensory problems.  There is, within each person, an appetite for sexual congress.  The sensory process is about determining who 'I' am in comparison with 'you.'  Eyes, ears, and all the other material information data collection organs work with the mind to define who we are and who others are.

If that complex sensor process because damaged or is altered, then one's sense of self will be distorted and one's appetites will not be fulfilled properly.

How many of us have heard how gays or gender-confused people talk about growing up 'feeling different?'  How can you say you always felt different if you never knew what it was to feel normal?  There's your dead giveaway: feeling not normal or not right when you have no experience of feeling right to begin with.  Thus, we are talking about a sensory problem.

Christianity teaches that we must overcome our sensory system to a greater extent.  We must learn to 'distrust' it, since it can tell us bad things 'feel good.'

The modern world, having lost this paradigm, is now in complete disorder.

Too bad so many Orthodox have bought into the modern lingo about sexuality.  Now, they really can't even teach otherwise, no matter how much they pound their chests about 'modern immorality.'  As long as you are still talking about 'homosexuality' and 'SSA,' you will always loose.  The language is in their favor.

The Christian model of appetites


Fr. there is a lot here, I wish I could address it all. But I'm not sure about the psychology (in the old sense of the word) that you're presenting as Orthodox here. A lot of it sounds quite modern to me. So perhaps you could help me out be sketching out more clearly how you think we relate to the world in terms of this psychology.

In addition to this, I'm also a tad confused by the apparent conflation of 'transgender' with 'homosexuality'

Well, the early versions of the DSM held them under the same heading, so I assume that even psychology at one time held them as part of the same constellation of problems.  Only recently have they been separated.

Both 'homosexuality' and 'gender mis-identity' stem from the same sensory problem that affects how the person senses his own self in relation to others.  The sexual appetite isn't 'gender specific' at its most base level... the body just wants sex.  The Romans understood it that way, for example, which is why they permitted a certain degree of same-sex contact so long as the larger social expectations were met.

However, the more the sense of self is distorted, the more one's perception of others is naturally distorted, and so the more likely one is able to both lose his sense of his own natural gender identity and the natural desirability of the opposite sex.  This is why homosexuality and gender trans-substantiation both involve distortions in one's normal gender-specific behaviors (i.e. effeminacy for men and bullish behavior for women).

So, they are two points on a spectrum, not two separate issues.
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #98 on: October 09, 2015, 10:55:21 AM »
Biblically- and Patristically-speaking, there is no such thing as "Transgender," "Same Sex Attraction," "Homosexuality," or any of the modern lingo which has been developed to explain and categorize human sexuality.

That should give us 'red flags' as Christians to why this suddenly became into being even though same-sex contact is probably about as old as recorded humanity.  What has changed about humanity?

I would posit that not much has changed... just the lingo.

So, my theory is that Orthodox Christianity follows the Biblical language of 'appetites' and 'desires,' whereas the psychological model of the modern world has become about 'attraction.'  There's a difference: one is pushing and the other is pulling.

In the case of 'attraction,' the person becomes a passive player in his sexuality, almost a victim as it were to what draws him.  'Appetites' are about the self-will and what one seeks to 'consume.'  The former are, by definition, much harder to manage.  The latter, while also difficult, are something one must (according to tradition and many forms of social restraint) fight against if not completely tame.

The modern psychological model then makes 'attraction' a matter of psychology (thanks Freud!), since one must come to some kind of understanding about these mythical forces of attraction.  Psychology may also deal with how these attractions develop certain appetites, but the appetites are never fully addressed because psychology deals with thinking your way through problems, and appetites are, by nature, not really subject to thought (i.e. you can't really think your way out of needing food or air).

So, in the end, attractions are out of psychology's reach and so we end up having to surrender to them.

The Christian model is that sexuality is an appetite that can be tamed though not entirely eliminated.  How does one go about taming appetites in Christianity?  Well, you can rule out psychology, because we have been around longer than that (poor Freud!).

Appetites dwell in the realm of the senses and sensory processing.  Asceticism is a sensory struggle, not a psychological one.  It is about learning to endure the pain of deprivation, not thinking one's way out of it.  You suffer and it hurts, but over time you build up a tolerance.

So, what about all this 'homosexuality' and 'transgender' stuff?  Well, by extension, these are all sensory problems.  There is, within each person, an appetite for sexual congress.  The sensory process is about determining who 'I' am in comparison with 'you.'  Eyes, ears, and all the other material information data collection organs work with the mind to define who we are and who others are.

If that complex sensor process because damaged or is altered, then one's sense of self will be distorted and one's appetites will not be fulfilled properly.

How many of us have heard how gays or gender-confused people talk about growing up 'feeling different?'  How can you say you always felt different if you never knew what it was to feel normal?  There's your dead giveaway: feeling not normal or not right when you have no experience of feeling right to begin with.  Thus, we are talking about a sensory problem.

Christianity teaches that we must overcome our sensory system to a greater extent.  We must learn to 'distrust' it, since it can tell us bad things 'feel good.'

The modern world, having lost this paradigm, is now in complete disorder.

Too bad so many Orthodox have bought into the modern lingo about sexuality.  Now, they really can't even teach otherwise, no matter how much they pound their chests about 'modern immorality.'  As long as you are still talking about 'homosexuality' and 'SSA,' you will always loose.  The language is in their favor.

The Christian model of appetites


Fr. there is a lot here, I wish I could address it all. But I'm not sure about the psychology (in the old sense of the word) that you're presenting as Orthodox here. A lot of it sounds quite modern to me. So perhaps you could help me out be sketching out more clearly how you think we relate to the world in terms of this psychology.

Do you mean that I am not presenting 'orthodox psychology,' or that I am presenting psychology as Orthodox?
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #99 on: October 09, 2015, 11:06:28 AM »
Don't Adam and Eve prove there can only be man and woman? I don't know how intersex fit into that though.

Was Adam a man before there was woman?
This seems like a question that should be mounted on the thinking dinosaur meme.
[censored]

Just stop this Trisagion.
Let's be honest. Its a stupid question (no offense James). The question assumes a very literal understanding of Genesis and it places biological sex as being contingent on humanity. To put it bluntly, even if we do grant the assumption on the literal understanding where God poofed everything into the world in six literal days and then made woman at some point later, there would still be millions of animals with penises and millions of animals with vaginas. Thus, a human with a penis would still be a man even if there was no corresponding human with a vagina.

I felt snark was a quicker way to respond than actually have to explain its logical fallacy. Apparently I was wrong.

It is the color scheme. It is nauseating. I was eating ice cream for the first time in three months.

Does this work instead?

How dare you insult the thinking dinosaur meme! Many serious questions have been pondered upon his sweet angelic face and multi-green background!
God bless!

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #100 on: October 09, 2015, 11:11:21 AM »
Don't Adam and Eve prove there can only be man and woman? I don't know how intersex fit into that though.

Was Adam a man before there was woman?
This seems like a question that should be mounted on the thinking dinosaur meme.
[censored]

Just stop this Trisagion.
Let's be honest. Its a stupid question (no offense James). The question assumes a very literal understanding of Genesis and it places biological sex as being contingent on humanity. To put it bluntly, even if we do grant the assumption on the literal understanding where God poofed everything into the world in six literal days and then made woman at some point later, there would still be millions of animals with penises and millions of animals with vaginas. Thus, a human with a penis would still be a man even if there was no corresponding human with a vagina.

I felt snark was a quicker way to respond than actually have to explain its logical fallacy. Apparently I was wrong.

It is the color scheme. It is nauseating. I was eating ice cream for the first time in three months.

Does this work instead?

How dare you insult the thinking dinosaur meme! Many serious questions have been pondered upon his sweet angelic face and multi-green background!

You can use this one when posters start trading barbs...

You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #101 on: October 09, 2015, 11:12:52 AM »
...

The former, but I'm not saying it's unorthodox, only that I am unsure of it.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Rohzek

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #102 on: October 09, 2015, 11:16:26 AM »
Natural gender identity is a difficult thing to uphold scientifically. I suppose one could argue that it is socially stimulated rather than socially constructed. That being said, the evidence for social stimulation is probably more difficult to find (if there is any) than there is to find evidence for social stimulation for human language capacity.

Aside from that, saying that transgenderism or same-sex attraction doesn't exist is really far out there. The Bible does say anything about Special Relativity either. Are we then to deny its existence?

Setting transgenderism aside, the moral issues seem clear to me, but to go as far as to say that every gay person's senses are lying to them is far fetched. It treats the body as some sort of conspirator against humanity, which is too close to Manicheanism for my tastes. Human urges are natural. Whether or not to follow up on them is a completely different matter.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 11:17:48 AM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #103 on: October 09, 2015, 11:22:46 AM »
...

The former, but I'm not saying it's unorthodox, only that I am unsure of it.

Well, I'm really not predisposed to defend modern psychology, let alone try to defend all of its modern permutations.

I can (arguably) summarize it this way: psychology assumes the will can repair itself.  This is why, of course, there are some psychological problems that are deemed untreatable, given the degree of brokenness.
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Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #104 on: October 09, 2015, 11:26:23 AM »
Natural gender identity is a difficult thing to uphold scientifically. I suppose one could argue that it is socially stimulated rather than socially constructed. That being said, the evidence for social stimulation is probably more difficult to find (if there is any) than there is to find evidence for social stimulation for human language capacity.

Aside from that, saying that transgenderism or same-sex attraction doesn't exist is really far out there. The Bible does say anything about Special Relativity either. Are we then to deny its existence?

Setting transgenderism aside, the moral issues seem clear to me, but to go as far as to say that every gay person's senses are lying to them is far fetched. It treats the body as some sort of conspirator against humanity, which is too close to Manicheanism for my tastes. Human urges are natural. Whether or not to follow up on them is a completely different matter.

Are you saying that the Bible attempts to explain physics?  No, it does not, though it does deal with human passions and problems, so one would naturally assume that it would mention the concept.  The fact that it does not either implies an oversight or that such a concept does not exist from the biblical perspective.
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #105 on: October 09, 2015, 12:00:31 PM »
I would really like to see chromosomes get"reassigned"

In the movie "Die Another Day", there are spies who have their entire genetic code replaced with someone else's in order to serve as a body double. Using retroviruses and/or stem cells it might actually be possible to do something like that. Not saying I'd be in favor of it, of course, but I'm sure someone's going to try it at some point.
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Offline Elisha

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #106 on: October 09, 2015, 12:39:25 PM »
I would really like to see chromosomes get"reassigned"

In the movie "Die Another Day", there are spies who have their entire genetic code replaced with someone else's in order to serve as a body double. Using retroviruses and/or stem cells it might actually be possible to do something like that. Not saying I'd be in favor of it, of course, but I'm sure someone's going to try it at some point.

I like that movie.  I have the DVD at home and watched it somewhat recently.

Yeah, that gene therapy stuff was a bit weird.

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #107 on: October 09, 2015, 12:49:28 PM »
...

The former, but I'm not saying it's unorthodox, only that I am unsure of it.

Well, I'm really not predisposed to defend modern psychology, let alone try to defend all of its modern permutations.

I can (arguably) summarize it this way: psychology assumes the will can repair itself.  This is why, of course, there are some psychological problems that are deemed untreatable, given the degree of brokenness.

Fr. by "psychology in the old sense" I mean in the sense used by Aristotle and the Fathers, viz. a science of the soul. That does seem to be what you're presenting here, an Orthodox psychology.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 12:50:38 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #108 on: October 09, 2015, 01:28:34 PM »
...

The former, but I'm not saying it's unorthodox, only that I am unsure of it.

Well, I'm really not predisposed to defend modern psychology, let alone try to defend all of its modern permutations.

I can (arguably) summarize it this way: psychology assumes the will can repair itself.  This is why, of course, there are some psychological problems that are deemed untreatable, given the degree of brokenness.

Fr. by "psychology in the old sense" I mean in the sense used by Aristotle and the Fathers, viz. a science of the soul. That does seem to be what you're presenting here, an Orthodox psychology.
The problem is that 'psychē' in the old sense versus the modern terminology of 'psychology' are mostly incompatible.  I'd just avoid the whole thing altogether. 

I'd almost like to coin the term askesitology to describe the Orthodox Christian approach, from the concept of 'askesis' or ascetic struggle.  It think it is braoder than 'psychology,' since it embraces the spiritual and physical natures of the person rather than just reason or thoughts.
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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #109 on: October 09, 2015, 01:45:07 PM »
The problem is that 'psychē' in the old sense versus the modern terminology of 'psychology' are mostly incompatible.  I'd just avoid the whole thing altogether. 
Fair enough.

It think it is braoder than 'psychology,' since it embraces the spiritual and physical natures of the person rather than just reason or thoughts.[/size][/font]
That sounds good to me, it was the bits about sensory processing that troubled me a bit, and made me want to know more clearly how you think we relate to the world from this askesitology perspective.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 01:45:21 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #111 on: October 09, 2015, 06:20:02 PM »
I would really like to see chromosomes get"reassigned"

Why be so reductionist?
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Offline JamesRottnek

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #112 on: October 09, 2015, 06:22:03 PM »
Don't Adam and Eve prove there can only be man and woman? I don't know how intersex fit into that though.

Was Adam a man before there was woman?
This seems like a question that should be mounted on the thinking dinosaur meme.


Just stop this Trisagion.
Let's be honest. Its a stupid question (no offense James). The question assumes a very literal understanding of Genesis and it places biological sex as being contingent on humanity. To put it bluntly, even if we do grant the assumption on the literal understanding where God poofed everything into the world in six literal days and then made woman at some point later, there would still be millions of animals with penises and millions of animals with vaginas. Thus, a human with a penis would still be a man even if there was no corresponding human with a vagina.

I felt snark was a quicker way to respond than actually have to explain its logical fallacy. Apparently I was wrong.

I'm sorry, but has the Orthodox Church stopped using the creation stories for doctrine?  Does it no longer teach a fall?

My point was in no way to suggest that Genesis is literal history....and I'm surprised given my posting history that anyone could think that.  But yet, I think Genesis is still true, and wouldn't dismiss it as quickly as you would.
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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #113 on: October 09, 2015, 06:51:01 PM »
Was there a man before there was a woman?
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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #114 on: October 09, 2015, 07:08:33 PM »
Was there a man before there was a woman?

Was there a chicken before there was an egg?

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #115 on: October 09, 2015, 07:09:17 PM »
Was there a shoot before there was a me?
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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #116 on: October 09, 2015, 08:30:33 PM »
Transgenderism is certainly abnormal, though I am not completely willing to pin it on mental illness--at least not in every instance.

Contrary to the egalitarian worldview of feminism, I believe that gender is very much intertwined with sex and probably has just as much, if not greater, a basis in nature as it does nurture.

That said, I speculate that transgenderism is the result of some biological disorder. Maybe they truly didn't "develop" the right way due to hormones or something.

Consider that most of these people actually aren't complete basket-cases but seem pretty normal and mentally stable despite the fact. As crazy as it sounds, what if they truly do have the mind of a woman despite the body of a man and vice versa?

Thus, while I recognize transgenderism as something real and not just the result of insanity, I think it should be regarded as a biological abnormality and treated as a disorder, opposed to normalized and enforced through crazy, egalitarian feminist rhetoric that gender is something you can change as casually as you would a hat.

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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #117 on: October 10, 2015, 01:22:45 AM »
While this is a study on homosexuality it would not surprise me if the same findings would apply to transgenderism as well.  This basically agrees with what has been the official stance of the Latin church for years and what I assume is the stand pretty much of the Orthodox church as well, i.e. "It's complicated".  Which allows one to empathize with what is clearly a difficult cross to bear and is largely outside the control of they who suffer while also condemning acting on those desires.

http://www.nature.com/news/epigenetic-tags-linked-to-homosexuality-in-men-1.18530

While I still maintain and defend (when asked) the church's position on homosexual acts it does become increasingly difficult as more and more biological evidence mounts.
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Re: How to Address Transgender
« Reply #118 on: October 11, 2015, 05:32:41 PM »
Was there a shoot before there was a me?

Yes... briefly...
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