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Author Topic: How does someone become an Orthodox priest?  (Read 10625 times) Average Rating: 0
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mmathewes
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« on: July 13, 2005, 12:03:30 PM »

I am just curious what the process is. I am aware of the order of reader, subdeacon, deacon and then priest. But what besides that are the actual requirments for becoming a priest? Do they have to go to seminary?
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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2005, 01:24:13 PM »

Usually, you'd go to seminary and complete a degree (there are different ones...u could get different degrees and bacehlors and majors in theology, history, languages like hebrew, greek, russian etc). To go to an orthodox seminary u usually need a reccomendation by your priest and bishop which is not usually a problem (unless you have done something terribly heinous or have been charged in the past) because they love it when guys pursue theological education. Also, women could also go to seminary but of course not be ordained to the diaconate/priesthood or have the title 'seminarian.'

After that, some durisdictions require that you have a bachelor in something else like accounting, english, science, just to make sure you are an educated person in both theological and secular life as a priest deals with both all the time.

You don't have to get your secular education after. I know some guys prefer to get it over with before to fall back on in case the priesthood is not their calling. A friend of mine meanwhile is going straight into seminary out of highschool...

So after all the education is over, you basically wait around- err study some more, work etc, until you feel you've got the call from God. When you think youare ready and your priest and bishop have guided you properly, then you are usually ordained a deacon which lasts as little as a few weeks to as long as a few years. Then you are ordained a priest.

Oh yeah, and as you know you should be married to be a communiy priest. If you are ordained without prior marriage then you must remain celibate and usually reside in a monastic setting or seminary.

Hope that helped and wasn't misinformative in any way,
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« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2005, 01:40:03 PM »

I am just curious what the process is. I am aware of the order of reader, subdeacon, deacon and then priest. But what besides that are the actual requirments for becoming a priest? Do they have to go to seminary?

Technically, the only requirement is that your Bishop lays his hands on you and ordains you...it's just that most bishops usually insist on some degree of education before they're willing to do that. If one wants to get ordained, they should simply bring the issue up with their bishop.

Oh yeah, and as you know you should be married to be a communiy priest. If you are ordained without prior marriage then you must remain celibate and usually reside in a monastic setting or seminary.

Not really, I know and know of several priests who are simply celibate parish priests. Most celibate priests, at least in the United States, are parish priests.
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« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2005, 02:06:24 PM »

but doesn't that run the risk of increasing the priest's temptations? And also wouldn't that potentially increase the likleyhood of sex-scandals like the Catholic Chuch has?
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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2005, 02:40:56 PM »

Not really, I know and know of several priests who are simply celibate parish priests. Most celibate priests, at least in the United States, are parish priests.

Dear GiC,

Do you happen to have the numbers on that? That would be interesting to see the breakdown. Are most of the celebate priests black clergy or just celebate white clergy?
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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2005, 03:04:28 PM »

If a man is going to cheat on his promises, which have more meaning--marriage, or ordination?

Being a single, celibate parish priest doesn't necessarily have to increase any sort of scandals. It is usually preferred that a parish priest be married if he has the inclination because of the important role a matushka plays and because marriage makes the home into a Church, but it's also completely acceptable to be single. Not all men will be married, and there's generally such a need for priests that every priest, single or no, serves the Church.

Also, why wouldn't women receive the name "seminarian?" It means someone who is going to seminary, or receiving a religious education. I know plenty of female seminarians and never called them anything different.
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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2005, 03:04:54 PM »

And what the heck does black and white have to do with anything?
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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2005, 03:11:09 PM »

And what the heck does black and white have to do with anything?

Monastic clergy are called black clergy and non-monastic clergy are called white clergy. It comes from the pre-revolutionary custom of monks only wearing dark podryasniks and rassas and many married clergy tending to wear lighter podryasniks and rassas.
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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2005, 03:33:45 PM »

but doesn't that run the risk of increasing the priest's temptations?

Depends on the Person.

Quote
And also wouldn't that potentially increase the likleyhood of sex-scandals like the Catholic Chuch has?

Not necessarially, married priests (or people from other related professions), in past experience, have been just as capable of causing scandal as celibate Clergy. From what I understand, these types of scandals are as prevelant amongst Protestant Clergy as amongst Latin Clergy, despite their being able to marry and even remarry. Plus, when you consider married clergy, there are two people in a posistion, able to cause comprable degrees of scandal, both the Priest and his Wife (amongst the Reasons why the Canons address not only the Conduct of Priests, but also that of their wives specifically).

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6644.msg86907#msg86907 date=1121280056]
Dear GiC,

Do you happen to have the numbers on that? That would be interesting to see the breakdown. Are most of the celebate priests black clergy or just celebate white clergy?
[/quote]

Not off the top of my head. The place I believe that these Statistics can be found (for the GOA at least) is in the Archdiocese's Yearbook...but I dont have one readily available. I'm not certain where one would look for these statistics from other jurisdictions.

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6644.msg86911#msg86911 date=1121281869]
Monastic clergy are called black clergy and non-monastic clergy are called white clergy. It comes from the pre-revolutionary custom of monks only wearing dark podryasniks and rassas and many married clergy tending to wear lighter podryasniks and rassas.
[/quote]

Of Course, if they're priests of the Great Church, they should be wearing black regardless of whether they're Monastic or Secular Clergy. Wink
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2005, 03:41:02 PM »

Women students at St Vladimir's are referred to as seminarians.  What would be the point of NOT calling them that? No one is clammoring for ordination of women and even if they did it's not like it can happen in the Orthodox Church so it's a non-issue.  I am proud of the many faithful and intelligent women that I have know over the past few years who studied with me at St Vladimir's Seminary.

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« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2005, 03:56:21 PM »

Sorry for not explaining myself more thoroughly. I was told by a student at Hellenic College that women cannot have the title seminarian...sry for the misinformation! I'm not against women pursuing higher theological learning. I actually want my sister to do it one day but thats just what I was told. And so I got told again, hehe.
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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2005, 04:16:44 PM »

Sorry for not explaining myself more thoroughly. I was told by a student at Hellenic College that women cannot have the title seminarian...sry for the misinformation! I'm not against women pursuing higher theological learning. I actually want my sister to do it one day but thats just what I was told. And so I got told again, hehe.

Probably just an institutional difference. Orthodoxy is so relatively new in America that the terms are not set in stone yet in our language.

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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2005, 04:18:49 PM »

Quote
Oh yeah, and as you know you should be married to be a communiy priest. If you are ordained without prior marriage then you must remain celibate and usually reside in a monastic setting or seminary.

funny you should say this, not 2 weeks ago i was talking to a friend about how almost all of the parishes i frequent regularly (as a college student i sorta hop around depending on where i am staying any given weekend) - all but 1 - are run by celibate, monastic priests. my home parish certainly is, w/ an archdeacon who is a monk as well, then 2 others i frequent semi-regularly, one priest is an igumen and one an archimandrite. anyway, i found it interesting that almost all the priests i know are monks, and all run parishes. my priest has been a parish priest for many years at my parish, as far as i know there has never been the slightest sign of a scandal, he is loved by all, and gives so much to the parish, as does the archdeacon, in time and labor, since it is their entire life. anyway, just my 2 cents Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2005, 04:25:36 PM »

Women students at St Vladimir's are referred to as seminarians.ÂÂ  What would be the point of NOT calling them that? No one is clammoring for ordination of women and even if they did it's not like it can happen in the Orthodox Church so it's a non-issue.

I would disagree since the definition of seminary is "A theological school especially for the training of priests, ministers, or rabbis." Since the women are not training to be priests, then they should not be called seminarians IMO. Theology students is better I would think. Just like at SVOTS the men wear podryasniks and the women do not, so there is no reason in having a different name for each sex either. Of course I am not for calling actresses actors either. :-)

But as to no one clammoring for women's ordination, there were not female tonsured Readers either until a few years ago when the GOA started the new practice.
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« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2005, 07:03:20 PM »

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6644.msg86911#msg86911 date=1121281869]
Monastic clergy are called black clergy and non-monastic clergy are called white clergy. It comes from the pre-revolutionary custom of monks only wearing dark podryasniks and rassas and many married clergy tending to wear lighter podryasniks and rassas.
[/quote]

Thanks for that; Ive never heard that terminology before.
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« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2005, 08:36:09 PM »

Actually in the United States the word Seminary means only school of upper education.  Indeed prior to the rise of the Colleges for women, most women who were educated in what we now call high school and junior college went to Seminary.  My grandmother was a graduate from such a seminary here in Texas, it had nothing to do with a religious group or training program.  The students were called seminarians. I believe that in the Orthodox Church we usually call female theology students and male theology student seminarians and if they are track for ordination they are called candidates (for the priesthood) this actively differentiates the general seminary students (male or female ) from those being considered for the priesthood.  After graduation or shortly before graduation, some male seminary students also apply to the Ordination committee or commission of their jurisdiction to be evaluated for ordination, until that time, they are just seminarians, just a student. In some jurisdictions, there are  seminarians who are sent to the Seminary by their bishop as candidates for the priesthood  from the very begining (you often see these ordained  Deacons in their senior year)

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« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2005, 08:52:06 PM »

Quote
How does someone become an Orthodox priest?

The first step is to ask yourself why you are asking this question to begin with. Ask yourself: why am I seeking this burden, when Saints like Ambrose, John Chrysostom, etc. went to great lengths to avoid getting ordained, and eventually only got ordained because they felt like it was God's will and it would be a terrible sin to disobey it? Ask yourself: When one of our greatest saints, St. Gregory the Theologian, can speak bitterly, years after, about how he felt essentially forced into the priesthood almost against his will, what makes me think that I am capable of being a priest? Read the literature on the priesthood and then ask yourself: am I worthy of such a burden? Why do I want to be a priest? What would happen if my bishop sent me to the last place on earth I wanted to be, to do the last thing on earth I wanted to do?

If, after all that soul searching, you feel worthy of the priesthood, do more soul searching, since you haven't found the truth yet. If, however, you recognize your unworthiness--not in a shallow or "I'm the greatest of sinners" false humility type of way, but as a mindset that manifests itself in a humble life--but you still feel called to the priesthood, talk to your priest and your bishop and ask what they think about such an idea. Then, follow your priest or bishop's advice.
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« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2005, 08:52:33 PM »

I know a woman orthodox priest that was single when she was ordained but then got married and is now trying to have a child.
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« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2005, 09:04:01 PM »

Quote
I know a woman orthodox priest that was single when she was ordained but then got married and is now trying to have a child.

<--Walks out the door before anyone can hear his comment!  Grin
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« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2005, 09:10:23 PM »

I know a woman orthodox priest that was single when she was ordained but then got married and is now trying to have a child.

In Orthodoxy, neither priestesses nor getting married after the ordination to the Subdeaconate is allowed.
(And to clarify, you have to be set apart as a Reader before you can become a Subdeacon, must be a Subdeacon before you can be ordained a Deacon and likewise must be a deacon before you can be ordained a Priest.)
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« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2005, 09:21:55 PM »

Yet subdeaons are often allowed to marry by economia in this day and age. Just to be clear.  That is an issue of discipline.  Women priests are a matter of dogma.

To clarify, I believe Girl belongs to a Church affiliated with Archbishop Ashe/Mor Enoch and while we don't agree with their policies, we also recognize that they do not claim to be members of the Eastern Orthodox communion.

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« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2005, 09:40:41 PM »

I'm hoping Mor Ephrem can clarify the issue regarding what Girl's church is exactly, and what relationship if any it has to the genuine Malankara Oriental Orthodox Church. Was jmjedi's assessment of her church in a previous thread correct? I don't see how her church could possibly be part of any canonical Oriental Orthodox Church if it ordains women priests; our Coptic Patriarch His Holiness Pope Shenouda III even wrote a polemical book directed against both female and homosexual priests specifically, and members of the Holy Coptic Synod have on a number occasions walked out of ecumenical dialogues with Anglicans whenever they have persisted in pushing forth the issue of female and homosexual priests.

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« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2005, 10:23:39 PM »

I think they have a lottery and whoever has the unlucky losing number has to become the priest.

Seriously, though, with the garbage priests have to put up with, I don't know how they do it.
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« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2005, 11:34:51 PM »

The father of my church is a bishop elect and was sopposed to be ordained an American Orthodox Bishop, July 3rd but our Arch Bishop, Veron Ashe, was not able to make it so the ordination had to be delayed, obviously someone can not become a bishop if no one supports them.  Undecided
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« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2005, 12:06:57 AM »

Dear Girl:

This is not a question of simply whether a bishop supports him.  Its a question of whether the jurisdiction itself is valid and in communion with either an EO or an OO jurisdiction.  The church of which this Mar Enoch (Vernon Ashe) is a part of is listed among the churches that are not associated with either, and therfore is not a valid Orthodox jurisdiction.  Though he may dress like an OO bishop, he is not an OO bishop.  Just because he calls the Holy Qurbana by it's proper name from the Syriac/ Indian tradition, it does not mean it is a valid sacrament.  I say this not out of a spirit of meanness, nor from haughtiness, but from fact.  No Orthodox Church claims them.  I would encourage you to ask other priests and bishops from other churches, particualarly Orthodox, about the status of your church in relation to them.  For the EO Part, you can visit and email people at these addresses where it says "contact us":

www.antiochian.org

www.oca.org

www.goarch.org

There are more, buth that is all that comes to mind for the moment.

I can say this without reservation. No Orthodox Church, be it Oriental or Eastern, has women priests.  It is not done following the Holy Tradition of the Church.  There are no acceptions to the rule.

Again not picking, just informing.


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« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2005, 12:24:04 AM »

Listen............ I am going to stick with what I believe. There are other jurisdictions that accept us, to be ordained a bishop you need at LEAST three other bishops present and in agreement, are these three other bishops not really valid Bishops either? Is it possible for three men to become "in valid" bishops/arch bishops with out anyone saying anything about it, until now? I say NO.
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« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2005, 12:36:23 AM »

Girl,

What organizations do you share communion with, since you say there are some?
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« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2005, 01:04:58 AM »

Hey all, these are Mr. Ashe's website:

http://www.archbishopashe.com/index2.html

http://www.churchofmiami.org/

I scoured it for its "apostolic lineage" or "orthodox affiliation" but failed at finding anything...however...I did find this quote:

"THE CHURCH OF MIAMI is orthodox in doctrine, evangelical in ethos, and charismatic in expression." So its like they are a mix...they got the orthodox faith on paper but they practise like protestants? I'm pretty sure that is not possible.

Girl, I don't mean to demean your church in any way but there is a difference between your church and the Orthodox church. The Orthodox Church is the chruch of Christ, founded by Christ Himself who gave it to the Apostles to be caretakers over it. The Orthodox Church is as old as the Apostles themselves, ooo about 2000 years.

Can you tell us what source your church comes from please?

Please don't take what I said in a negative way,

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« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2005, 01:09:56 AM »

http://www.marthomaorthodoxchurch.com/history.html     there is our history.

Choirfiend,

I was saying that these bishops have to come from some chruch, so obviously there are others who accept us.
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« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2005, 01:36:29 AM »

Unfortunately, sometimes bishops break from their churches. They then start their own churches and ordain whomever they like and teach whatever they like. These churches are not part of the Orthodox Church. The history of your church leaves out details between 1892 and 1997. It also states that the first bishop of your church was consecrated by two Malankara bishops and an "independent Catholic" one. You cannot consecrate an Orthodox bishop using a Catholic one, even one that is "Independent" or not part of the RCC.

Claiming apostolic succession through a Catholic(?) bishop doesn't work to be Orthodox. Just claiming apostolic succession of any sort isnt enough! You must teach and do what has been believed "by all, in all places and all times." The ordination of women priests has never been done in Orthodoxy for good reason and will never be done.

Again, what groups is your church in communion with? You gotta be able to answer that question. Orthodoxy is a communion.
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« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2005, 06:47:44 AM »

Hi Everyone,

I'm new here and hope to post many more messages in the future.

By the way I think that to become a good priest you need to be trained and educated. The days of the uneducated village priest are over. In those days it was not realy necessary to be overly educated. Now days we have to be very prepared. Because, there are all kinds of 'worlves' waiting to take our faithful 'lambs' away from the true fold.

But we should reach out with  a great deal of patience, love and gentleness to the lost 'lambs' and 'sheep' for them to return.

In Christ

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« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2005, 06:32:12 PM »

All this nonsense is exactly why there needs to be, and is, a Standard of Orthodoxy, a Centre of our Communion. Without this standard anyone can claim to be an Orthodox Bishop because they were ordained by the fourth cousin thrice removed of a real Orthodox Bishop.

This Standard of Communion' has long been, and yet remains, the Holy and Oecumenical Throne of Constantinople...all who are in communion with Her are Orthodox, all out of Communion with Her are Heterodox.
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« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2005, 06:33:11 PM »

So what happens if by some chance the Ecumenical Patriarchate ceases to be Orthodox?

If every other Orthodox church broke communion with the EP, would they all cease to be Orthodox? IOW, is the EP the standard of Orthodoxy simply by virtue of being the EP, and Orthodoxy is whatever the EP believes, or is the EP the standard because they are the first among the churches and still hold to the faith? If the latter, then that's fine. If the former, then you've just reinvented the papacy.
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« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2005, 06:40:41 PM »

Someone should do a serious study of neo-papal-patriarchalism some day, maybe as a thesis for college. I have read tidbits here and there enough to know that this problem isn't a modern, or even post-Great-Schism, phenomenon. As long as there has been a Constantinople, there have been people claiming that she was the bestower of Orthodoxy. The role of the first among equals is validatory (= to support or corroborate), not to be the authoritarian final word on who is and isn't Orthodox. For Pete's sake, Constantinople has been in heresy more than any of the other five Sees in the so-called Pentarchy, and this in spite of it having the shortest history!
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« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2005, 06:48:29 PM »

So what happens if by some chance the Ecumenical Patriarchate ceases to be Orthodox?

If every other Orthodox church broke communion with the EP, would they all cease to be Orthodox? IOW, is the EP the standard of Orthodoxy simply by virtue of being the EP, and Orthodoxy is whatever the EP believes, or is the EP the standard because they are the first among the churches and still hold to the faith? If the latter, then that's fine. If the former, then you've just reinvented the papacy.

It would depend on the manner of their departure, if they all broke communion, each Church acting independently, then yes, they would cease to be Orthodox. Now if Communion was broken by the decree of an Oecumenical Synod, that's another issue; for it was an Oecumenical Synod that first Gave Constantinople the Rights and Honours she now Enjoys.
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« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2005, 07:02:44 PM »

It would depend on the manner of their departure, if they all broke communion, each Church acting independently, then yes, they would cease to be Orthodox. Now if Communion was broken by the decree of an Oecumenical Synod, that's another issue; for it was an Oecumenical Synod that first Gave Constantinople the Rights and Honours she now Enjoys.

So if a Nestorian Arian were to become EP and all the other Churches broke communion as a result, they would cease to be Orthodox because of it? Shocked
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« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2005, 07:29:47 PM »

Perhaps you could produce some patristic evidence that communion with Constantinople is the sine qua non of Orthodoxy?   Many great saints and fathers have found themselves out of communion with Conastantinople at various times.  Or conversely was the Russian "Living Church" of the 1920s Orthodox because they were in communion with Constantinople?
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« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2005, 07:39:24 PM »

Actually in the United States the word Seminary means only school of upper education.ÂÂ  Indeed prior to the rise of the Colleges for women, most women who were educated in what we now call high school and junior college went to Seminary.ÂÂ  My grandmother was a graduate from such a seminary here in Texas..
In Christ,
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"Three little maids who, all unwary
Come from a ladies' seminary
Freed from its genius tutelary
Three little maids from school
Three little maids from school"

the Refrain from "Three Little Maids from School are We"  From "The Mikado" by Gilbert and Sullivan

 Grin

Verse 1:
"Three little maids from school are we
Pert as a school-girl well can be
Filled to the brim with girlish glee
Three little maids from school"


The use of the term "Seminary" for a place of education for ladies goes back at least to 1694 with Mary Astells  "A Serious Proposal to the Ladies"
http://www.litencyc.com/php/sworks.php?rec=true&UID=10533

And from "Etymology Online"

Seminary "c.1440, "plot where plants are raised from seeds," from L. seminarium "plant nursery," figuratively, "breeding ground," from seminarius "of seed," from semen (gen. seminis) "seed" (see semen). Meaning "school for training priests" first recorded 1581; commonly used for any school (especially academies for young ladies) from 1585 to 1930s. Seminarian "seminary student" is attested from 1584."

From your friendly neighborhood researcher,

Ebor
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« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2005, 07:46:05 PM »


The Pastoral School of the Diocese of Chicago and Detroit of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is now accepting applications for the fall semester beginning in September of 2005. The application deadline is August 1st.

 

The goal of the program is to provide students with a sound theological education through a distance-learning format. The program is designed for individuals who:
 

I. Are unable to attend an Orthodox seminary, but nonetheless feel called to serve the Church through parish ministry;
II. Are already in the ranks of the clergy, but would like to advance their education through Continuing Theological Education credit (CTE);

III. As laity would like to learn more about the Orthodox Church through a structured academic program.

 

All interested individuals should write to Priest Martin Swanson for an application or for additional information.
 

The Pastoral School of the Diocese of Chicago and Detroit Of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad
c/o Rev. Father Martin Swanson, Ph.D.

127 E. Clinton Place 2a

Kirkwwod, MO 63122

 

Or email Father Martin at: rmswanson@primary.net
 More information about the program can be obtained here.
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« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2005, 01:33:11 AM »

So if a Nestorian Arian were to become EP and all the other Churches broke communion as a result, they would cease to be Orthodox because of it? Shocked

We've already had a Nestorian Patriarch of Constantinople...Nestorius; he was anathematized using the proper Method, an Oecumenical Synod. If there is a Nestorian Patriarch of Constantinople, and Oecumenical Synod should be used to anathematize him, not individual Patriarchal Synods who have no jurisdiction and lack the authority to condemn the Oecumenical Patriarch. If their solution to the problem was simply to break Communion they would enter into Schism, and yes, cease to be Orthodox. For Orthodoxy is as much communion as it is doctrinal, if not more so. You confuse the priority of the Church and Dogmatics: a doctrine is Orthodox because it is accepted by the Communion of the Church, one is Not Orthodox because they hold to certain doctrines.

Perhaps you could produce some patristic evidence that communion with Constantinople is the sine qua non of Orthodoxy? Many great saints and fathers have found themselves out of communion with Conastantinople at various times. Or conversely was the Russian "Living Church" of the 1920s Orthodox because they were in communion with Constantinople?

I would start with the commentaries of Balsamon, Zonaras, and Aristenus, especially the latter, as well as documents on the Subject surrounding the Fourth Oecumenical Synod. Concerning the Living Church, did Constantinople enter into Communion with them or just favour them in the debates of the time? If they did not enter into Communion the question is moot. If there was communion, then it must be said that they were certainly more Orthodox than the Schismatic group that was out of Communion.
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« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2005, 02:21:28 AM »

But none of those say that Constantinople is the sine qua non of Orthodoxy - and if we take the logic to its final end, than Constantinople had no right to break communion with Rome unless an ecumenical synod had first condemned Rome.  So are those who refused communion with the iconiclasts even before the seventh council to numbered among the schismatics, along with Saint Maximos the confessor and Saint Mark of Ephesos?  Applying a papal model to Orthodoxy will force you to condemn many saints. 

Quote
Concerning the Living Church, did Constantinople enter into Communion with them or just favour them in the debates of the time? If they did not enter into Communion the question is moot. If there was communion, then it must be said that they were certainly more Orthodox than the Schismatic group that was out of Communion.

Patriarch Meletios entered into communion with the Living Church and saw them as the sole legitimate synod of Russia - not the synod of Saint Tikhon.  Now pray tell, which group during this time was the "Schismatic group" that was present in Russia?
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« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2005, 02:42:44 AM »

But none of those say that Constantinople is the sine qua non of Orthodoxy - and if we take the logic to its final end, than Constantinople had no right to break communion with Rome unless an ecumenical synod had first condemned Rome.ÂÂ  So are those who refused communion with the iconiclasts even before the seventh council to numbered among the schismatics, along with Saint Maximos the confessor and Saint Mark of Ephesos?ÂÂ  Applying a papal model to Orthodoxy will force you to condemn many saints.ÂÂ  

I believe you misunderstand the point, it's not that the Oecumenical Throne is either infallible or is the sine qua non of Orthodoxy, it is that the Oecumenical Throne is greatest Authority in Orthodoxy. At time the Oecumenical Throne may be wrong, but it is still Authoritive, it is Still the Centre of the Orthodox Communion, even if it may be subject to Correction at a later date. As the Church is based primarily on, and not Doctrine, one may cease to be in the Church, even though they are right for they have Broken Communion with the Church by Breaking Communion with the Oecumenical Throne. However, we must keep in mind that the Church is not an institution located only in one place and time, but an institution that transcends space and time. One may be removed from communion, and yet restored; and a bishop or patriarch who died in Communion, can later be excommunicated. So in the end it is the one excommunicated outside the Church and the one restored who is within the Church. But at the paticular time first mentioned, the person excommunicated (however unjustly) is still outside the Church.

The Saints do not have to be condemned to maintain Order in the Church and prevent the the anarchistic situation we see amongst various schismatic groups today where every layman is a synod unto himself.

Quote
Patriarch Meletios entered into communion with the Living Church and saw them as the sole legitimate synod of Russia - not the synod of Saint Tikhon.ÂÂ  Now pray tell, which group during this time was the "Schismatic group" that was present in Russia?

Out of curiosity, which Primate of the Living Church was entered into the Dyptics of the Great Church? But in any case, there would have been nothing inherently wrong with this Communion. The Revolution was a difficult time with various factions fighting for power, Constantinople was attempting to determine the Legitimate Ecclesiastical Authority in the New Communist State (and as Constantinople had been under the Turks for nearly 500 years, she was far from inexperienced in such matters), and eventually did...the problem of the time was that most factions were either revolutionaries or counter-revolutionaries, she eventually found and endorsed the entity that was simply a continuation of the Church, independent of Political Alliances, and was concerned for the Church first and foremost, not the state...with the death of the Tzar, the counter-revolution was a lost cause, and Constantinople realized this and refused to jeprodize the Church by supporting this quickly diminishing political faction.
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« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2005, 02:47:59 AM »

Ok, for the sake of my eyes, would it be possible to abide by common English useage instead of German and just capitalize the things that are supposed to be capitals?? I can't read it.
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« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2005, 03:44:02 AM »

Agreed Choirfiend!  This odd mixture of forced attempts at British English in addition to what amounts to random capitilization (which is not exactly the German rule either) is very different to read.  Perhaps this is the only English form in which the subjects of the "Oecumenical Throne" are permitted to use. 

As to the points of GiC.  Your arguments are based on authority, which is the weakest of all arguments.  It has come to the point where many people here laugh at you every time you say "Oecumenical Throne."  Of those who were in schismatic groups and have since joined the Orthodox Church that I know, none of them were won over with authority.  It is grace, not authority that draws people to the Church.  But let us play along with your example, that one must stay in communion with the primus inter pares of the Church until an ecumenical synod condemns the primus inter pares.  The only churches that have done that are the Uniates since the Orthodox are schismatics for leaving the Roman communion. 

Regarding the condemning of saints - you have already done that with your previous implication concerning Saint John Maximovitch - a blasphemy equal to the Old Calendarists that deny the grace in the mysteries of the Church.  Were Elder Paisios the Athonite, Elder Joseph of Vatopaidi, Elder Ephraim of Katounakia, Elder Ephraim of Philotheou, Elder Haralamabros of Dionisiou or Elder George of Grigoriou schismatics because they didn't commerate Patriarch Athenagoras?  So yes your papalism condemns saints of the past and the living fathers of our era.

Quote
But in any case, there would have been nothing inherently wrong with this Communion.

That is exactly the essence of the problem - you see the Church as an administrative entity.  The Russian Living Church was an heretical body condemned by Saint Tikhon's synod - think TomS as a patriarch to get the picture.  The point is that yes, there is something inherently wrong with holding communion with heretics. 

Your assertation that this was a confused time for the Russian church is actually incorrect - it wasn't until later, the statement of Patriarch Sergius, that several competing groups came into play.  There was at the time of Living Church only the legitimate synod of the Russian Church (which was apolitical) and the Living Church (supported the communists).  As for who was the head of the living church - I'll leave you to do some much needed research on the Russian Church of this time period... it is a very interesting and telling tale actually.       
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« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2005, 10:49:45 AM »

Ok, for the sake of my eyes, would it be possible to abide by common English useage instead of German and just capitalize the things that are supposed to be capitals?? I can't read it.

tHAnk yOU!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #45 on: July 15, 2005, 10:53:22 AM »


"Three little maids who, all unwary
Come from a ladies' seminary
Freed from its genius tutelary
Three little maids from school
Three little maids from school"

the Refrain from "Three Little Maids from School are We"  From "The Mikado" by Gilbert and Sullivan

 Grin

Verse 1:
"Three little maids from school are we
Pert as a school-girl well can be
Filled to the brim with girlish glee
Three little maids from school"


Wasn't there an episode of Magnum PI where Higgins organized a performance of this very song?  Sorry, random factoid...
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« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2005, 10:57:16 AM »

I'll have to take your word on that, Ania, but it could be.  I think that would have been a riot.  Cheesy

Ebor
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« Reply #47 on: July 15, 2005, 11:57:57 AM »

GiC, do you have *any* patristic evidence to support your claims on ecclesiology?
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« Reply #48 on: July 15, 2005, 12:41:28 PM »

Ok, for the sake of my eyes, would it be possible to abide by common English useage instead of German and just capitalize the things that are supposed to be capitals?? I can't read it.

Actually it is English Usage, but the Fact that English and German should have things in common is Far from unexpected. Generally such capitalization in English is used to Emphasize certain elements of a sentence. In the reading of Documents from the Mid-Late 19th Century and Earlier, this should be quite apparent, especially in documents from and prior to the 18th Century, from both England and America. If you desire Examples of this one need to Look no Further than the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution of the United States.

As to the points of GiC. Your arguments are based on authority, which is the weakest of all arguments. It has come to the point where many people here laugh at you every time you say "Oecumenical Throne."

They are most certainly welcome to laugh...mind you many people here also openly support Schismatics, so I should expect nothing less.

Quote
Of those who were in schismatic groups and have since joined the Orthodox Church that I know, none of them were won over with authority. It is grace, not authority that draws people to the Church. But let us play along with your example, that one must stay in communion with the primus inter pares of the Church until an ecumenical synod condemns the primus inter pares. The only churches that have done that are the Uniates since the Orthodox are schismatics for leaving the Roman communion.

Except, of course, that Constantinople is granted EQUAL Authority and Privileges with Old Rome by Chalcedon 28, and thus though Rome is a more Senior Patriarchate, it is not Greater in Authority, and all of Her Rights must also be Rights of Constantinople by the Said Canon (though it does not work the other way around, Constantinople can have Rights denied to Rome).

Quote
Regarding the condemning of saints - you have already done that with your previous implication concerning Saint John Maximovitch - a blasphemy equal to the Old Calendarists that deny the grace in the mysteries of the Church. Were Elder Paisios the Athonite, Elder Joseph of Vatopaidi, Elder Ephraim of Katounakia, Elder Ephraim of Philotheou, Elder Haralamabros of Dionisiou or Elder George of Grigoriou schismatics because they didn't commerate Patriarch Athenagoras? So yes your papalism condemns saints of the past and the living fathers of our era.

YES!!!!! They Were Schismatics. How much more so for those who are DIRECTLY Under the Oecumenical Throne and yet schism against her authority, the Church has previously had problems with Such Schismatics, and had dealt with them in her Canons. To quote the 'First-Second' Synod (A.D. 681 in Constantinople under Emperor Michael and Patriarch St. Photios):

Canon 13:
Quote
The All-evil One having planted the seed of heretical tares in the Church of Christ, and seeing these being cut down to the roots with the sword of the Spirit, took a different course of trickery by attempting to divide the body of Christ by means of the madness of the schismatics. But, checking even this plot of his, the holy Council has decreed that henceforth if any Presbyter or Deacon, on the alleged ground that his own bishop has been condemned for certain crimes, before a conciliar or synodal hearing and investigation has been made, should dare to secede from his communion, and fail to mention his name in the sacred prayers of the liturgical services in accordance with the custom handed down in the Church, he shall be subject to prompt deposition from office and shall be stripped of every prelatic honor. For anyone who has been established in the rank of Presbyter and forestalls the Metropolitan’s judgment, and, judging matters before a trial has been held, insofar as lies in his power, condemns his own father and Bishop, he is not even worthy of the honor or name of Presbyter. Those, on the other hand, who go along with him, in case any of them should be among those in holy orders, they too shall forfeit their own rights to honor, or, in case they should be monks or laymen, let them be utterly excommunicated from the Church until such time as they spew upon and openly renounce all connection with the schismatics and decide to return to their own Bishop.

And in reference to Bishops and their Metropolitans:
Canon 14:
Quote
If any Bishop, on the allegation that charges of crime lie against his own Metropolitan, shall secede or apostatize from him before a conciliar or synodal verdict has been issued against him, and shall abstain from communion with him, and fail to mention his name, in accordance with consuetude, in the course of the divine mystagogy (i.e., litrugical celebration of the Eucharistic mystery), the holy Council has decreed that he shall be deposed from office, if merely by seceding from his own Metropolitan he shall create a schism. For everyone ought to know his own bounds, and neither ought a presbyter treat his own bishop scornfully or contemptuously, nor ought a bishop to treat his own Metropolitan so.

Finally, the significance of Schism is manifested in Canon 11 of Carthage which states:
Quote
If any Presbyter be denounced for his conduct or behavior, such a one should notify neighboring Bishops, in order that they may give the matter a hearing, and through them he may become reconciled with his own bishop. If he fail to do so, but instead, what is to be deprecated, being inflated with superciliousness, he should separate himself from the communion of his own bishop, and while at odds wtih him should create a schism along with any other persons, and offer sacrifice to God, let such a person be considered anathema, and let him lose his own position, it being assumed that he has never had any just complaint against the Bishop.

The Only reason these Schismatics who failed to Commemorate their Rightful Patriarch were spared the Just Sentence of Anathema was for the same reason that His All-Holiness Patriarch Athenagoras lifted the Anathemas against Rome. He was a kind and loving man who prefered Mercy to the Justice that both these Schismatic Elders diserved along with the Bishop of Rome. The Fact that they were not Anathematized is an act of Extreme Economy and Mercy.

Quote
That is exactly the essence of the problem - you see the Church as an administrative entity. The Russian Living Church was an heretical body condemned by Saint Tikhon's synod - think TomS as a patriarch to get the picture. The point is that yes, there is something inherently wrong with holding communion with heretics.

Your assertation that this was a confused time for the Russian church is actually incorrect - it wasn't until later, the statement of Patriarch Sergius, that several competing groups came into play. There was at the time of Living Church only the legitimate synod of the Russian Church (which was apolitical) and the Living Church (supported the communists). As for who was the head of the living church - I'll leave you to do some much needed research on the Russian Church of this time period... it is a very interesting and telling tale actually.

And if TomS was elected Patriarch, as much as I might hate to, I'd have to give him the honour due to the Patriarchal Throne; plus, I have yet to hear of anything the Living Church did that could be regarded as Heresy. Yes they had a Married Episcopate and allowed Priests to Marry; but I can find many other Examples of both these Events in the History of the Church, the Former was once Common Practice and the latter, if it was not at one point common practice, has certainly been allowed at times. But as I said before, the situation in Russia was set aright, the Proper Synod was Recognized and the opposing Schismatics were excommunicated; and Communion has continued between Constantinople and Moscow (with brief interruptions Wink ) to this day.

GiC, do you have *any* patristic evidence to support your claims on ecclesiology?

I would start with the Commentary of Aristenus on Canon 3 of Constantinople II and with the Commentaries of Balsamon on Canon 3 of Sardica and Canon 28 of Chalcedon.
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« Reply #49 on: July 15, 2005, 12:47:07 PM »

Quote
Actually it is English Usage, but the Fact that English and German should have things in common is Far from unexpected. Generally such capitalization in English is used to Emphasize certain elements of a sentence. In the reading of Documents from the Mid-Late 19th Century and Earlier, this should be quite apparent, especially in documents from and prior to the 18th Century, from both England and America. If you desire Examples of this one need to Look no Further than the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution of the United States.

It's not modern English usage. And if you look at documents of that period, what is most commonly capitalized are nouns. You, however, seem to captalize anything that's not a conjunction or article. Even if you are trying to be archaic, please stop, as it is REALLY FREAKING ANNOYING.
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« Reply #50 on: July 15, 2005, 01:01:53 PM »

Quote
I would start with the Commentary of Aristenus on Canon 3 of Constantinople II and with the Commentaries of Balsamon on Canon 3 of Sardica and Canon 28 of Chalcedon.

Are these by any chance available online? Do they support your statement that anybody not in communion with Constantinople is by definition outside the Church? Because the canons these fellows are commenting on certainly don't say anything of the kind.

Incidentally, who is your bishop? I would be interested in contacting him and seeing if he supports your rather unique views on ecclesiology and the nature of the Church.
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« Reply #51 on: July 15, 2005, 01:16:58 PM »

It's not modern English usage. And if you look at documents of that period, what is most commonly capitalized are nouns. You, however, seem to captalize anything that's not a conjunction or article. Even if you are trying to be archaic, please stop, as it is REALLY FREAKING ANNOYING.

By the 19th Century this is True, but not necessarily in earlier Centuries, the point of capitalization is Emphasis. Frankly, I tend to dislike modern writing styles, yet I endure them, you do not have much room to complain as the vast majority of Modern Writers use a style consonant with your preference.

Are these by any chance available online? Do they support your statement that anybody not in communion with Constantinople is by definition outside the Church? Because the canons these fellows are commenting on certainly don't say anything of the kind.

They actually address the Rights of Constantinople in a broader manner, I would have to look harder to find the direct Support for that Claim, I have been told it came from one of the Endimousa Synods, though I do not know which one, it's probably in volume 5 of the Syntagma. The commentaries to which I refered should all be in volume 2 of the Syntagma (Sintagma ton theion kai ieron kanonon, Rhalles and Potles Athens,1852, repr. 1966).

Quote
Incidentally, who is your bishop? I would be interested in contacting him and seeing if he supports your rather unique views on ecclesiology and the nature of the Church.

His Eminence Metropolitan Gerasimos of San Francisco. Please contact him and try to get him to try and publically undermine the Posistions of the Oecumenical Throne; do you really think he'll support you in your polemics against New Rome?
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« Reply #52 on: July 15, 2005, 02:26:30 PM »

So when are we going to get an "ignore" function on this site? I have a whole list of crazies whose posts I could do without having to read....I'm a huge fan of normal Orthodox people, who very often don't post enough on the internet...
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« Reply #53 on: July 15, 2005, 02:28:00 PM »

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By the 19th Century this is True, but not necessarily in earlier Centuries, the point of capitalization is Emphasis. Frankly, I tend to dislike modern writing styles, yet I endure them, you do not have much room to complain as the vast majority of Modern Writers use a style consonant with your preference.

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His Eminence Metropolitan Gerasimos of San Francisco. Please contact him and try to get him to try and publically undermine the Posistions of the Oecumenical Throne; do you really think he'll support you in your polemics against New Rome?

What I'm interested in is whether he will support your claims that:

1. Anyone not in communion with Constantinople is by definition outside of Orthodoxy
2. St. Maximos the Confessor was a schismatic
3. If the Patriarch of Constantinople were to (God forbid) fall into bareheaded heresy, and the rest of the Church broke communion with him, then he would nevertheless remain the Church and everybody else would be schismatic.
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« Reply #54 on: July 15, 2005, 02:39:53 PM »

Quote
By the 19th Century this is True, but not necessarily in earlier Centuries, the point of capitalization is Emphasis. Frankly, I tend to dislike modern writing styles, yet I endure them, you do not have much room to complain as the vast majority of Modern Writers use a style consonant with your preference.

Can we agree that you are an antiquarian? I myself am somewhat antiquarian, and enjoy reading publications from the Center for Traditionalist Studies which use more traditional English.  However, on a message board I tend to just go with the flow and post like everyone else, using more colloquial language.

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« Reply #55 on: July 15, 2005, 03:08:04 PM »

1. Anyone not in communion with Constantinople is by definition outside of Orthodoxy

Nothing wrong with that question.

Quote
2. St. Maximos the Confessor was a schismatic

Not exactly what I said, he did enter into Schism, and at the time could have been refered to as a Schismatic, but as he was vindicated by the Sixth Oecumenical Synod he could not be accused of Schism thereafter, especially as the Communion was restored by the Patriarchate of Constantinople itself at Constantinople III. Something else to keep in mind, many people have entered into Schism against the Oecumenical Throne, Very Few of them have ever been vindicated by an Oecumenical Synod. The schisms tend to either die out, or if they do very well, go the way of the Latins, they continue as an ecclesiastical organization thats very existance is a mockery of the Church.

Quote
3. If the Patriarch of Constantinople were to (God forbid) fall into bareheaded heresy, and the rest of the Church broke communion with him, then he would nevertheless remain the Church and everybody else would be schismatic.

Close, try this:

Quote
3. If the Patriarch of Constantinople were to (God forbid) fall into bareheaded heresy, and the rest of the Church broke communion with him without summoning an Oecumenical Synod and convicting him of Heresy, then he would nevertheless remain the Church and everybody else would be schismatic.

Can we agree that you are an antiquarian? I myself am somewhat antiquarian, and enjoy reading publications from the Center for Traditionalist Studies which use more traditional English. However, on a message board I tend to just go with the flow and post like everyone else, using more colloquial language.

I fear I have written this way for so long, it has become second nature. This is now how I casually write; furthermore, I fail to see how a few Capitalized letters can be so problematic. Surely it's not worse than the posts I see which lack capitalization entirely, I have yet to hear anyone complain about them.
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« Reply #56 on: July 15, 2005, 03:13:02 PM »

Yes, both methods of typing are irritating.  Typing without capitalization, however, is done out of laziness and is thus merely inconsiderate.  Typing with additional capitalization by necessity requires an exertion of effort and is thus done deliberately.  Does that clear up why people take more issue with your manner of typing?
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« Reply #57 on: July 15, 2005, 03:24:18 PM »

So when are we going to get an "ignore" function on this site? I have a whole list of crazies whose posts I could do without having to read....I'm a huge fan of normal Orthodox people, who very often don't post enough on the internet...

It's a message board, not a chat room, and I'm hardly spamming. If you do not wish to read my posts (which are hardly 'fringe' btw), please, by all means Do Not Read them. You're the one who comes and chooses to read them.

Yes, both methods of typing are irritating. Typing without capitalization, however, is done out of laziness and is thus merely inconsiderate. Typing with additional capitalization by necessity requires an exertion of effort and is thus done deliberately. Does that clear up why people take more issue with your manner of typing?

As I've said before, this is how I generally write, it is Second Nature to me at this point. Typing in this manner is not what takes effort, conforming to the expectations of everyone else is what would require 'an exertion of effort.' I believe that it is the Content of my posts that bothers people, and they try to take it out on my Gramatical Style.
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« Reply #58 on: July 15, 2005, 03:31:20 PM »

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I believe that it is the Content of my posts that bothers people, and they try to take it out on my Gramatical Style.

Trust me, your typographical style is plenty irritating on its own.
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« Reply #59 on: July 15, 2005, 03:58:14 PM »

Trust me, your typographical style is plenty irritating on its own.

Yup - the content exacerbates it (or the other way around - doesn't matter in this sense).
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« Reply #60 on: July 15, 2005, 04:29:33 PM »

Regarding the writting style:  I am well aware of the capitalization found within documents from the 1700s.  The point though is that this style is hardly normal in modern English is quite strange and looks quite forced.  Hopefully you don't try speaking in a fake English accent.  Try speaking only Koine Greek when you go to Thessaloniki.

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mind you many people here also openly support Schismatics, so I should expect nothing less.
ÂÂ

Who?  I know of two frequent posters that belong to schismatic old calendarist groups.... so where does the "many" come from?  There are of course some anti-chaldeans here, but they mostly stay out of this debate as it is an inter-Eastern Orthodox.  There are a few from ROCOR here - but they are in communion with Serbia and Jerusalem and the MP doesn't consider them schismatics... and the vast majority here belong to SCOBA jurisdictions.

Re: Old Rome vs. New Rome... they had equal authority - which doesn't give Saint Photios justification for severing communion with legitimate Papal authority (assuming your ecclesiology is the ecclesiology of the Church).  That being said St. Mark of Ephesus should have signed the union documents out of obedience to his Patriarch, Saint Maximos should have remained in union with Constaninople's heretics and the Orthodox should have remained in communion with the icon smashers - yet these were all glorified saints precisely because they did the exaxt opposite.

So basicly you have a few relatively recent commentaries on a canon to justify an extreme papal positions for Constantinople, and you think that should outweigh the numerous saints whose lives contradict that?  The many that you consider schismatics (the monastic elders that I name for instance) have been luminaries of the Church in this era, leading many people to scantity.  Hopefully when you go to Thessaloniki you will have the chance to spend some time on the Holy Mountain to appreciate the role of monasticism in the Church.  Or better yet since Souroti is on the city bus system you can go to the monastery of Saint John and tell the nuns there that Elder Paisios was a schismatic.  I'm sure they'll appreciate it - maybe you could even go to the relics of Saint John the Russian and tell him that he is a schismatic for turning away when Patriarch Meletios tried to venerate him!





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« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2005, 04:32:21 PM »

Technically, the only requirement is that your Bishop lays his hands on you and ordains you...
is this in any way like the laying of hands of pentecostals?
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« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2005, 04:38:31 PM »

Regarding the issue of the Russian Church: 

GiC, do you believe that the synod of Saint Tikhon was schismatic when Constantinople was in communion with the living church?  The real issue is that communion with Constantinople is not an accurate indicator of Orthodoxy at any given time in history.  If one were to have sided with the Living Church because Constantinople was in communion with them - they would still have been wrong. 
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« Reply #63 on: July 15, 2005, 04:51:12 PM »

Being this site is pan-Orthodox it would probably not be a good idea as an administrator to allow people to keep calling Old Calendarists schismatic without comment but since I am an Old Calendarist sympathizer any action I would actually take in this direction would just likely look like I am pushing my own agenda so be nice Smiley

On a personal note, I find it interesting that GisC believes the Phanar is right and so is obedient to it, and I believe the Pharar is wrong and believe that I should NOT be obedient to it, whereas Silouan is stuck beleiving the Phanar has authority that he must submit to even though he completely disagrees with it.ÂÂ  While each of us has decided his course, I wonder in 20 years who will still be on the same course and who won't, purely from a human interest.ÂÂ  Will I be able to maintain my ecclesiastical allegiance given its difficulty? Will Silouan be able to stay submissive to the Ecumenist patriarch of Constantinople? And will GisC still be happy with the Phanar or eventually become disillusioned if things don't go his way and his high ideals prove unworkable? Who knows.ÂÂ  Maybe in 20 years we can rehash this thread Smiley

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« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2005, 04:55:10 PM »

That's "Oecumenist."  Grin
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« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2005, 05:01:13 PM »

OT:
Anastasios -- interesting you should have that as your title. I actually work with a religious Zoroastrian. Very interesting faith and people.
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« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2005, 05:12:54 PM »

OT:
Anastasios -- interesting you should have that as your title. I actually work with a religious Zoroastrian. Very interesting faith and people.

I met some in India once and thought they were interesting and very moral.

Anastasios
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« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2005, 07:04:33 PM »

...I'm a huge fan of normal Orthodox people...

 WHAT THE.....To whom are you refering? Russians ? Greeks? Serbs? Bulgarians? Converts?You? Are you a " normal " Orthodox? Please let us know who is a normal Orthodox.  Like GiC ( and I believe I said the same thing to you on another thread) if you find it offensive, DON`T FREAKIN READ IT !!!!!!!!  ÃƒÆ’‚Â
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« Reply #68 on: July 15, 2005, 07:34:35 PM »

I definitely think there are normal Orthodox people and non-normal Orthodox people. Non-normal Orthodox for me means people who have non-normal Orthodox ideas. I would like to avoid reading things that I think are a real twisting of what Orthodoxy is...hello, ignore function!!!

Didn't like what I wrote? Then don't read it.


Yea, that whole argument doesn't go far...
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« Reply #69 on: July 15, 2005, 07:55:11 PM »

Quote
As I've said before, this is how I generally write, it is Second Nature to me at this point. Typing in this manner is not what takes effort, conforming to the expectations of everyone else is what would require 'an exertion of effort.' I believe that it is the Content of my posts that bothers people, and they try to take it out on my Gramatical Style.

Out of curiosity are the academic standards of Holy Cross so low that you could turn in a paper that violates most the rules of modern English capitalization?
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« Reply #70 on: July 15, 2005, 08:02:07 PM »

ÂÂ

Didn't like what I wrote? Then don't read it.


Yea, that whole argument doesn't go far...
ÂÂ  I never said I didn`t like what you wrote.Seems like you are always whining about the content of the threads( E.A. debating muslim dude, this thread...etc.). It`s as if you are trying to control what`s being posted on this forum. Then again , as a "normal" Orthodox ,you`re probably better suited than the rest of us to decide what should and should not be posted.
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« Reply #71 on: July 15, 2005, 08:13:57 PM »

Regarding the writting style:  I am well aware of the capitalization found within documents from the 1700s.  The point though is that this style is hardly normal in modern English is quite strange and looks quite forced.  Hopefully you don't try speaking in a fake English accent.  Try speaking only Koine Greek when you go to Thessaloniki.

I dont know how the Koine would go over in Thessaloniki, but I hear it is fairly well received in the Phanar. Wink ÂÂ

Quote
Who?  I know of two frequent posters that belong to schismatic old calendarist groups.... so where does the "many" come from?  There are of course some anti-chaldeans here, but they mostly stay out of this debate as it is an inter-Eastern Orthodox.

There may only be a few who belong to these groups, but there are many more who sympathize with them. And someone who sympathizes with the So-Called Genuine Orthodox Church or ROCOR is obviously going to have a less than honest and positive view of His All-Holiness.

Quote
There are a few from ROCOR here - but they are in communion with Serbia and Jerusalem and the MP doesn't consider them schismatics... and the vast majority here belong to SCOBA jurisdictions.

Well, I guess what I've been saying hasn't gotten through. Serbia and Jerusalem should not, on their own, recognize ROCOR, it improper and a Canonical Violation. But because of Economy and concern for the Church as a whole, the Patriarchate has not pushed the Issue.

Quote
Re: Old Rome vs. New Rome... they had equal authority - which doesn't give Saint Photios justification for severing communion with legitimate Papal authority (assuming your ecclesiology is the ecclesiology of the Church).

Actually, I would submit that that was within the rights of St. Photios as Oecumenical Patriarch. New Rome was the Imperial See, New Rome was Oecumenical Patriarch and the President of the Oecumenical Synods. Old Rome had a priority of honour because she was the First of the Imperial Sees, but Administratively, Constantinople had and has Primacy of Authority, because she has been Recognized as the Imperial See by Chalcedon.

Quote
 That being said St. Mark of Ephesus should have signed the union documents out of obedience to his Patriarch, Saint Maximos should have remained in union with Constaninople's heretics and the Orthodox should have remained in communion with the icon smashers - yet these were all glorified saints precisely because they did the exaxt opposite.

You believe the Oecumenical Throne to be in Heresy? If she is in Heresy then she can be corrected. I have made this point before, BUT if your posistion is not supported by an authoritive synod, and if the Patriarch is not Anathematized by either an Oecumenical Synod or the Patriarchal Synod of Constantinople, it is you who shall justly be condemned for the crime of which you falsely accused the Oecumenical Throne...it is you who are subject to anathema. If the Patriarch is not Convicted of Heresy (and even if one does not support her actions, to make the step from actions being unhelpful, damaging, or even unorthodox to being heretical and hence making the Patriarch subject to Anathema, is a significant step), those who oppose her and break communion with her, are either Schismatics or Heretics, in both cases diserving of Anathema, though out of mercy and by economy such a severe justice can be withheld.

Quote
So basicly you have a few relatively recent commentaries on a canon to justify an extreme papal positions for Constantinople, and you think that should outweigh the numerous saints whose lives contradict that?  The many that you consider schismatics (the monastic elders that I name for instance) have been luminaries of the Church in this era, leading many people to scantity.  Hopefully when you go to Thessaloniki you will have the chance to spend some time on the Holy Mountain to appreciate the role of monasticism in the Church.  Or better yet since Souroti is on the city bus system you can go to the monastery of Saint John and tell the nuns there that Elder Paisios was a schismatic.  I'm sure they'll appreciate it - maybe you could even go to the relics of Saint John the Russian and tell him that he is a schismatic for turning away when Patriarch Meletios tried to venerate him!

No one's perfect, perhaps these Elders would have done well to learn Humility and Obedience as well as Piety and Rhetoric.

Being this site is pan-Orthodox it would probably not be a good idea as an administrator to allow people to keep calling Old Calendarists schismatic without comment but since I am an Old Calendarist sympathizer any action I would actually take in this direction would just likely look like I am pushing my own agenda so be nice Smiley

I have a hard time understanding how someone who breaks with their Bishop or how a Bishop who Breaks with their Metropolitan is not a Schismatic. Perhaps I am harder on them than many are, but the Patriarchate of Constantinople hardly receives a great deal of respect either; and all of Orthodoxy Recognizes his Canonicity (apart from teh aforementioned fringe groups).

Quote
On a personal note, I find it interesting that GisC believes the Phanar is right and so is obedient to it, and I believe the Pharar is wrong and believe that I should NOT be obedient to it, whereas Silouan is stuck beleiving the Phanar has authority that he must submit to even though he completely disagrees with it.  While each of us has decided his course, I wonder in 20 years who will still be on the same course and who won't, purely from a human interest.  Will I be able to maintain my ecclesiastical allegiance given its difficulty? Will Silouan be able to stay submissive to the Ecumenist patriarch of Constantinople? And will GisC still be happy with the Phanar or eventually become disillusioned if things don't go his way and his high ideals prove unworkable? Who knows.  Maybe in 20 years we can rehash this thread Smiley

We are all fairly young, and with age generally comes moderation...I'm sure we'll all gravitate closer to each other, yet still remain decidedly apart (unless one or more of us undergoes a significant conversion Wink )

Out of curiosity are the academic standards of Holy Cross so low that you could turn in a paper that violates most the rules of modern English capitalization?

Yes, mind you I also got away with that in Undergraduate School, though I had extended debates on the Issue with various Professors. With that said, there are some Professors who insist on my using Modern gramatical styles, for them I generally oblige, but these professors are few and far between. Others believe me to be strange and eccentric, but most tend to ignore it as it is not a significant issue if it is not an English Writing course.
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« Reply #72 on: July 15, 2005, 08:15:44 PM »

Αναστάσιε,

You know that I don't think the old calendar is schismatic, as most of the Orthodox church uses it (i.e Russia, Serbia).  And you know that I personally have very close ties to an autonomous Orthodox church that follows the old calendar and is ironiclly under the EP.  But I do make the distinction between being an old calendarist and old calendarism.

You may think my path is strange - a traditionalist under the jurisdictional of the EP - but it is a path which great ones have choosen, so I also follow them.  Saint Paisii submited to those bishops opposed to hesychastic life, the kollydaves never formed their own synods.... and Saint Nektarios (a saint I feel particularly drawn towards!) remained obedient until the end despite the injustices suffered by him.  So if that is the path that lies ahead, so be it.  I'd choose that anyday over joining the blasphemy of Matthew of Vresthena and saying the Orthodox Church has no grace in her mysteries.  The ecumenists and the controversy they bring to the church will not last forever - either they will disipate or the church will eventually expell them entirely.

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« Reply #73 on: July 15, 2005, 08:20:22 PM »

   I never said I didn`t like what you wrote.Seems like you are always whining about the content of the threads( E.A. debating muslim dude, this thread...etc.). It`s as if you are trying to control what`s being posted on this forum. Then again , as a "normal" Orthodox ,you`re probably better suited than the rest of us to decide what should and should not be posted.

Ok, I'm always whining and I'm a control freak. Everyone should think like me at all times.
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« Reply #74 on: July 15, 2005, 08:22:54 PM »

ÂÂ  I never said I didn`t like what you wrote.Seems like you are always whining about the content of the threads( E.A. debating muslim dude, this thread...etc.). It`s as if you are trying to control what`s being posted on this forum. Then again , as a "normal" Orthodox ,you`re probably better suited than the rest of us to decide what should and should not be posted.

I think you just hit the nail on the head...there are a hand full of people who cannot stand a discussion when it does not fit their preconceived notions, that is to say, when you disagree with them on anything of even moderate (or sometimes minor) significance. There are many things I read here and elsewhere that I do not particularly carefor but censorship is NOT the Solution; Let people express themselves no matter how offensive or distasteful or 'abnormal'  it might be (which I take in this particular case to be anything not directly supported by the propaganda of Russian Churches (MP, OCA, ROCOR, etc.)).
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« Reply #75 on: July 15, 2005, 08:23:49 PM »

Ok, I'm always whining and I'm a control freak. Everyone should think like me at all times.

There you go with the control freak thing again.  Cheesy
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« Reply #76 on: July 15, 2005, 08:36:19 PM »

I know, I know, its crazy, but I'm so darn smart! Of course my mind is superior to everyone else's..

Maybe they can just clone me and populate Mars or something, create the New Byzantium we're anxiously awaiting...

If I disagree with something so strongly that I would suggest that it should not even be posted...well, that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I'm not about censorship, which is why I'd value the Ignore button. People could make whatever kind of outrageous, hateful, or erroneous statements and I actually wouldn't have to read it. You could ignore me, if you really wanted to, but who would, when I'm so smart?

 Grin This has been a really funny day
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« Reply #77 on: July 15, 2005, 08:39:02 PM »

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Let people express themselves no matter how offensive or distasteful or 'abnormal'  it might be (which I take in this particular case to be anything not directly supported by the propaganda of Russian Churches (MP, OCA, ROCOR, etc.)).

Мы тайный русский заговор. Опасайтесь нашей элитности!!!
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« Reply #78 on: July 15, 2005, 08:48:15 PM »

Мы тайный русский заговор. Опасайтесь нашей элитности!!!

I fear dont speak a word of Russian (well, I take that back, I can say yes, no, and count to ten...oh, I also learned how to properly salute a communist dictator; it's a good thing I took that semester of Russian Wink ) ...but thank God for babelfish; it may not be a universal translator, but at least it's getting better (and is much faster than a dictionary) Grin
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« Reply #79 on: July 15, 2005, 08:55:19 PM »

If I disagree with something so strongly that I would suggest that it should not even be posted...well, that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I'm not about censorship, which is why I'd value the Ignore button.

I think that "Natural Selection" tends to take place in forums if we are patient. Obnoxious people tend to leave after a few months of ranting, and cool heads prevail (unless of course, the moderators themselves are not cool heads). If you don't feed a troll, they starve and move on since they need reactions from others to live.
If someone says something stupid at a party, don't we simply ignore it and, in a way, "dissociate" from them so that the party can go on? If we react to what they say, we just give them the power they need to spoil the party- and there is usually a drunken brawl between a couple of testosterone pumped idiots when all you want to do is have a drink and a chat.
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« Reply #80 on: July 15, 2005, 09:01:09 PM »

Indeed, which I why I never tell anyone to do anything, just present my take on what they say and sometimes provide them with the request to take my opinion into consideration. They still say and do whatever they want. It takes all kinds, even the crazies* Wink

*ps. thats a really affectionate nickname for no one in particular. Everyone says crazy things sometimes...
« Last Edit: July 15, 2005, 09:06:22 PM by choirfiend » Logged

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« Reply #81 on: July 15, 2005, 09:08:41 PM »

I think you just hit the nail on the head...there are a hand full of people who cannot stand a discussion when it does not fit their preconceived notions, that is to say, when you disagree with them on anything of even moderate (or sometimes minor) significance. There are many things I read here and elsewhere that I do not particularly carefor but censorship is NOT the Solution; Let people express themselves no matter how offensive or distasteful or 'abnormal'  it might be (which I take in this particular case to be anything not directly supported by the propaganda of Russian Churches (MP, OCA, ROCOR, etc.)).

pps. GiC, I completely diagree with you on the issue of "Russian Church propaganda," but I wanted to tell you it was very easy for me to read this post. Thanks!:)
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« Reply #82 on: July 15, 2005, 09:29:41 PM »

..



If I disagree with something so strongly that I would suggest that it should not even be posted...well, that's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. I'm not about censorship, which is why I'd value the Ignore button. People could make whatever kind of outrageous, hateful, or erroneous statements and I actually wouldn't have to read it. You could ignore me, if you really wanted to, but who would, when I'm so smart?

 Grin This has been a really funny day
      Choirfriend : I find alot of your posts to be insightful and heartfelt. And if there were an ignore button, I would not ignore you.
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« Reply #83 on: July 15, 2005, 09:37:34 PM »

Thanks Mo. I dont thnk I'd ignore yours either. Criticism is often warranted, so I'll take all I can get.
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« Reply #84 on: July 15, 2005, 10:14:52 PM »

As far as I know, the only bishop that has authority over my jurisdiction is +Basil of Wichita and Mid America,  and he's proven to be a good stewart of God's light.   

And last I checked we had a system of equals governing the church, with some recieveing honour among them, not authority above them.  When one begins to abuse that honor, one begins to become a demagogue, no longer following Christ but his own ambitions. There are times for correction on theological issues (which is the duty of all the memebers of Christ's Church, not soley the bishop's).  But when one begins to exhort his authority over others in a manner of a corruped king, and uses the cannons of the church to further his aims, he is no longer worthy of that position.

If I wanted a Universal Head that wasn't Christ Jesus in the church, I would have opted to other planes. 


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« Reply #85 on: July 16, 2005, 07:24:05 AM »

I think that "Natural Selection" tends to take place in forums if we are patient. Obnoxious people tend to leave after a few months of ranting, and cool heads prevail (unless of course, the moderators themselves are not cool heads).

I wish it were so, but I tend to believe in The Law of the Stupidest Argument.
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« Reply #86 on: July 16, 2005, 07:55:17 AM »

As I've said before, this is how I generally write, it is Second Nature to me at this point. Typing in this manner is not what takes effort, conforming to the expectations of everyone else is what would require 'an exertion of effort.' I believe that it is the Content of my posts that bothers people, and they try to take it out on my Gramatical Style.

PARENT ON

Actually, it is the content of this post that outlines the problem. There's another name for "second nature": it's called

BAD HABITS.

PARENT OFF
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« Reply #87 on: July 16, 2005, 08:12:55 AM »

How does someone become an Obnoxious Git?

I never realised that I had the gift of prophecy:  Wink

If someone says something stupid at a party, don't we simply ignore it and, in a way, "dissociate" from them so that the party can go on? If we react to what they say, we just give them the power they need to spoil the party- and there is usually a drunken brawl between a couple of testosterone pumped idiots when all you want to do is have a drink and a chat.
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« Reply #88 on: July 16, 2005, 09:07:48 AM »

It's OK-- I'm an approved troll for this forum.

 Tongue Wink Grin
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« Reply #89 on: July 16, 2005, 09:31:42 AM »

It's OK-- I'm an approved troll for this forum.

LOL  Cheesy

I like the "Law of the Stupidest Argument" btw. But I still think the Stupidest Argument only dominates (and ultimately will prevail) if people don't just move on.
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« Reply #90 on: July 16, 2005, 11:18:52 AM »

Quote
On a personal note, I find it interesting that GisC believes the Phanar is right and so is obedient to it, and I believe the Pharar is wrong and believe that I should NOT be obedient to it, whereas Silouan is stuck beleiving the Phanar has authority that he must submit to even though he completely disagrees with it.  While each of us has decided his course, I wonder in 20 years who will still be on the same course and who won't, purely from a human interest.  Will I be able to maintain my ecclesiastical allegiance given its difficulty? Will Silouan be able to stay submissive to the Ecumenist patriarch of Constantinople? And will GisC still be happy with the Phanar or eventually become disillusioned if things don't go his way and his high ideals prove unworkable? Who knows.  Maybe in 20 years we can rehash this thread

I have a better idea.  Instead of rehashing this thread let's all get together for a drink (say, coffee, so that no one can accuse me of talking too much about alcohol . . . but I'll have a beer, you can have the coffee).

What the heck, why wait 20 years?  Let's rehash the topic now.  I'm thirsty.
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« Reply #91 on: July 16, 2005, 11:22:26 AM »

cizinec,

These days I skip the beer and go straight for the Kettle One Vodka!

Anastasios
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« Reply #92 on: July 16, 2005, 11:27:07 AM »

Others believe me to be strange and eccentric,

I'm sorry to go back to this old of a post, but when I finally read it I couldn't pass it up...

Yeah, GiC, at Holy Cross only a few unnamed 'others' believed you to be 'strange and eccentric'....  ÃƒÆ’‚  ÃƒÆ’‚ Smiley Wink Cheesy Grin Roll Eyes
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