OrthodoxChristianity.net
September 30, 2014, 03:54:06 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: How does someone become an Orthodox priest?  (Read 10753 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
mmathewes
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 6


« on: July 13, 2005, 12:03:30 PM »

I am just curious what the process is. I am aware of the order of reader, subdeacon, deacon and then priest. But what besides that are the actual requirments for becoming a priest? Do they have to go to seminary?
Logged
Timos
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 856



« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2005, 01:24:13 PM »

Usually, you'd go to seminary and complete a degree (there are different ones...u could get different degrees and bacehlors and majors in theology, history, languages like hebrew, greek, russian etc). To go to an orthodox seminary u usually need a reccomendation by your priest and bishop which is not usually a problem (unless you have done something terribly heinous or have been charged in the past) because they love it when guys pursue theological education. Also, women could also go to seminary but of course not be ordained to the diaconate/priesthood or have the title 'seminarian.'

After that, some durisdictions require that you have a bachelor in something else like accounting, english, science, just to make sure you are an educated person in both theological and secular life as a priest deals with both all the time.

You don't have to get your secular education after. I know some guys prefer to get it over with before to fall back on in case the priesthood is not their calling. A friend of mine meanwhile is going straight into seminary out of highschool...

So after all the education is over, you basically wait around- err study some more, work etc, until you feel you've got the call from God. When you think youare ready and your priest and bishop have guided you properly, then you are usually ordained a deacon which lasts as little as a few weeks to as long as a few years. Then you are ordained a priest.

Oh yeah, and as you know you should be married to be a communiy priest. If you are ordained without prior marriage then you must remain celibate and usually reside in a monastic setting or seminary.

Hope that helped and wasn't misinformative in any way,
                                                                              Timos
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2005, 01:40:03 PM »

I am just curious what the process is. I am aware of the order of reader, subdeacon, deacon and then priest. But what besides that are the actual requirments for becoming a priest? Do they have to go to seminary?

Technically, the only requirement is that your Bishop lays his hands on you and ordains you...it's just that most bishops usually insist on some degree of education before they're willing to do that. If one wants to get ordained, they should simply bring the issue up with their bishop.

Oh yeah, and as you know you should be married to be a communiy priest. If you are ordained without prior marriage then you must remain celibate and usually reside in a monastic setting or seminary.

Not really, I know and know of several priests who are simply celibate parish priests. Most celibate priests, at least in the United States, are parish priests.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Timos
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 856



« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2005, 02:06:24 PM »

but doesn't that run the risk of increasing the priest's temptations? And also wouldn't that potentially increase the likleyhood of sex-scandals like the Catholic Chuch has?
Logged
Nigula Qian Zishi
Administrator Emeritus, Retired Deacon, Inactive Poster, Active Orthodox Christian, Father, and Husband
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 1,836


我美丽的妻子和我。

nstanosheck
WWW
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2005, 02:40:56 PM »

Not really, I know and know of several priests who are simply celibate parish priests. Most celibate priests, at least in the United States, are parish priests.

Dear GiC,

Do you happen to have the numbers on that? That would be interesting to see the breakdown. Are most of the celebate priests black clergy or just celebate white clergy?
Logged

在基督         My Original Blog
尼古拉         My Facebook Profile
前执事         My Twitter Page
choirfiend
ManIsChristian=iRnotgrEek.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 903

Rachael weeping for her children, for they are not


« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2005, 03:04:28 PM »

If a man is going to cheat on his promises, which have more meaning--marriage, or ordination?

Being a single, celibate parish priest doesn't necessarily have to increase any sort of scandals. It is usually preferred that a parish priest be married if he has the inclination because of the important role a matushka plays and because marriage makes the home into a Church, but it's also completely acceptable to be single. Not all men will be married, and there's generally such a need for priests that every priest, single or no, serves the Church.

Also, why wouldn't women receive the name "seminarian?" It means someone who is going to seminary, or receiving a religious education. I know plenty of female seminarians and never called them anything different.
Logged

Qui cantat, bis orat
choirfiend
ManIsChristian=iRnotgrEek.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 903

Rachael weeping for her children, for they are not


« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2005, 03:04:54 PM »

And what the heck does black and white have to do with anything?
Logged

Qui cantat, bis orat
Nigula Qian Zishi
Administrator Emeritus, Retired Deacon, Inactive Poster, Active Orthodox Christian, Father, and Husband
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 1,836


我美丽的妻子和我。

nstanosheck
WWW
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2005, 03:11:09 PM »

And what the heck does black and white have to do with anything?

Monastic clergy are called black clergy and non-monastic clergy are called white clergy. It comes from the pre-revolutionary custom of monks only wearing dark podryasniks and rassas and many married clergy tending to wear lighter podryasniks and rassas.
Logged

在基督         My Original Blog
尼古拉         My Facebook Profile
前执事         My Twitter Page
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2005, 03:33:45 PM »

but doesn't that run the risk of increasing the priest's temptations?

Depends on the Person.

Quote
And also wouldn't that potentially increase the likleyhood of sex-scandals like the Catholic Chuch has?

Not necessarially, married priests (or people from other related professions), in past experience, have been just as capable of causing scandal as celibate Clergy. From what I understand, these types of scandals are as prevelant amongst Protestant Clergy as amongst Latin Clergy, despite their being able to marry and even remarry. Plus, when you consider married clergy, there are two people in a posistion, able to cause comprable degrees of scandal, both the Priest and his Wife (amongst the Reasons why the Canons address not only the Conduct of Priests, but also that of their wives specifically).

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6644.msg86907#msg86907 date=1121280056]
Dear GiC,

Do you happen to have the numbers on that? That would be interesting to see the breakdown. Are most of the celebate priests black clergy or just celebate white clergy?
[/quote]

Not off the top of my head. The place I believe that these Statistics can be found (for the GOA at least) is in the Archdiocese's Yearbook...but I dont have one readily available. I'm not certain where one would look for these statistics from other jurisdictions.

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6644.msg86911#msg86911 date=1121281869]
Monastic clergy are called black clergy and non-monastic clergy are called white clergy. It comes from the pre-revolutionary custom of monks only wearing dark podryasniks and rassas and many married clergy tending to wear lighter podryasniks and rassas.
[/quote]

Of Course, if they're priests of the Great Church, they should be wearing black regardless of whether they're Monastic or Secular Clergy. Wink
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,456


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2005, 03:41:02 PM »

Women students at St Vladimir's are referred to as seminarians.  What would be the point of NOT calling them that? No one is clammoring for ordination of women and even if they did it's not like it can happen in the Orthodox Church so it's a non-issue.  I am proud of the many faithful and intelligent women that I have know over the past few years who studied with me at St Vladimir's Seminary.

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Timos
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 856



« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2005, 03:56:21 PM »

Sorry for not explaining myself more thoroughly. I was told by a student at Hellenic College that women cannot have the title seminarian...sry for the misinformation! I'm not against women pursuing higher theological learning. I actually want my sister to do it one day but thats just what I was told. And so I got told again, hehe.
Logged
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,456


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2005, 04:16:44 PM »

Sorry for not explaining myself more thoroughly. I was told by a student at Hellenic College that women cannot have the title seminarian...sry for the misinformation! I'm not against women pursuing higher theological learning. I actually want my sister to do it one day but thats just what I was told. And so I got told again, hehe.

Probably just an institutional difference. Orthodoxy is so relatively new in America that the terms are not set in stone yet in our language.

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
Donna Rose
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 937


« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2005, 04:18:49 PM »

Quote
Oh yeah, and as you know you should be married to be a communiy priest. If you are ordained without prior marriage then you must remain celibate and usually reside in a monastic setting or seminary.

funny you should say this, not 2 weeks ago i was talking to a friend about how almost all of the parishes i frequent regularly (as a college student i sorta hop around depending on where i am staying any given weekend) - all but 1 - are run by celibate, monastic priests. my home parish certainly is, w/ an archdeacon who is a monk as well, then 2 others i frequent semi-regularly, one priest is an igumen and one an archimandrite. anyway, i found it interesting that almost all the priests i know are monks, and all run parishes. my priest has been a parish priest for many years at my parish, as far as i know there has never been the slightest sign of a scandal, he is loved by all, and gives so much to the parish, as does the archdeacon, in time and labor, since it is their entire life. anyway, just my 2 cents Smiley
Logged

hmmmm...
Nigula Qian Zishi
Administrator Emeritus, Retired Deacon, Inactive Poster, Active Orthodox Christian, Father, and Husband
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 1,836


我美丽的妻子和我。

nstanosheck
WWW
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2005, 04:25:36 PM »

Women students at St Vladimir's are referred to as seminarians.ÂÂ  What would be the point of NOT calling them that? No one is clammoring for ordination of women and even if they did it's not like it can happen in the Orthodox Church so it's a non-issue.

I would disagree since the definition of seminary is "A theological school especially for the training of priests, ministers, or rabbis." Since the women are not training to be priests, then they should not be called seminarians IMO. Theology students is better I would think. Just like at SVOTS the men wear podryasniks and the women do not, so there is no reason in having a different name for each sex either. Of course I am not for calling actresses actors either. :-)

But as to no one clammoring for women's ordination, there were not female tonsured Readers either until a few years ago when the GOA started the new practice.
Logged

在基督         My Original Blog
尼古拉         My Facebook Profile
前执事         My Twitter Page
choirfiend
ManIsChristian=iRnotgrEek.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 903

Rachael weeping for her children, for they are not


« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2005, 07:03:20 PM »

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6644.msg86911#msg86911 date=1121281869]
Monastic clergy are called black clergy and non-monastic clergy are called white clergy. It comes from the pre-revolutionary custom of monks only wearing dark podryasniks and rassas and many married clergy tending to wear lighter podryasniks and rassas.
[/quote]

Thanks for that; Ive never heard that terminology before.
Logged

Qui cantat, bis orat
Thomas
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,796



« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2005, 08:36:09 PM »

Actually in the United States the word Seminary means only school of upper education.  Indeed prior to the rise of the Colleges for women, most women who were educated in what we now call high school and junior college went to Seminary.  My grandmother was a graduate from such a seminary here in Texas, it had nothing to do with a religious group or training program.  The students were called seminarians. I believe that in the Orthodox Church we usually call female theology students and male theology student seminarians and if they are track for ordination they are called candidates (for the priesthood) this actively differentiates the general seminary students (male or female ) from those being considered for the priesthood.  After graduation or shortly before graduation, some male seminary students also apply to the Ordination committee or commission of their jurisdiction to be evaluated for ordination, until that time, they are just seminarians, just a student. In some jurisdictions, there are  seminarians who are sent to the Seminary by their bishop as candidates for the priesthood  from the very begining (you often see these ordained  Deacons in their senior year)

In Christ,
Thomas
Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,960


black metal cat


« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2005, 08:52:06 PM »

Quote
How does someone become an Orthodox priest?

The first step is to ask yourself why you are asking this question to begin with. Ask yourself: why am I seeking this burden, when Saints like Ambrose, John Chrysostom, etc. went to great lengths to avoid getting ordained, and eventually only got ordained because they felt like it was God's will and it would be a terrible sin to disobey it? Ask yourself: When one of our greatest saints, St. Gregory the Theologian, can speak bitterly, years after, about how he felt essentially forced into the priesthood almost against his will, what makes me think that I am capable of being a priest? Read the literature on the priesthood and then ask yourself: am I worthy of such a burden? Why do I want to be a priest? What would happen if my bishop sent me to the last place on earth I wanted to be, to do the last thing on earth I wanted to do?

If, after all that soul searching, you feel worthy of the priesthood, do more soul searching, since you haven't found the truth yet. If, however, you recognize your unworthiness--not in a shallow or "I'm the greatest of sinners" false humility type of way, but as a mindset that manifests itself in a humble life--but you still feel called to the priesthood, talk to your priest and your bishop and ask what they think about such an idea. Then, follow your priest or bishop's advice.
Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
Girl
Search the unknown
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 165


« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2005, 08:52:33 PM »

I know a woman orthodox priest that was single when she was ordained but then got married and is now trying to have a child.
Logged

"Go out and make disciples of all nations" (Mathew 28:19)
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,960


black metal cat


« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2005, 09:04:01 PM »

Quote
I know a woman orthodox priest that was single when she was ordained but then got married and is now trying to have a child.

<--Walks out the door before anyone can hear his comment!  Grin
Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
Nigula Qian Zishi
Administrator Emeritus, Retired Deacon, Inactive Poster, Active Orthodox Christian, Father, and Husband
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 1,836


我美丽的妻子和我。

nstanosheck
WWW
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2005, 09:10:23 PM »

I know a woman orthodox priest that was single when she was ordained but then got married and is now trying to have a child.

In Orthodoxy, neither priestesses nor getting married after the ordination to the Subdeaconate is allowed.
(And to clarify, you have to be set apart as a Reader before you can become a Subdeacon, must be a Subdeacon before you can be ordained a Deacon and likewise must be a deacon before you can be ordained a Priest.)
« Last Edit: July 13, 2005, 09:12:15 PM by ΝικολάÎÆ» Logged

在基督         My Original Blog
尼古拉         My Facebook Profile
前执事         My Twitter Page
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,456


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #20 on: July 13, 2005, 09:21:55 PM »

Yet subdeaons are often allowed to marry by economia in this day and age. Just to be clear.  That is an issue of discipline.  Women priests are a matter of dogma.

To clarify, I believe Girl belongs to a Church affiliated with Archbishop Ashe/Mor Enoch and while we don't agree with their policies, we also recognize that they do not claim to be members of the Eastern Orthodox communion.

Anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodox teaching. Also, I served as an Orthodox priest from 2008-2013, before resigning.
EkhristosAnesti
'I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust."' - Psalm 91:2
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Posts: 2,743


Pope St Kyrillos VI


« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2005, 09:40:41 PM »

I'm hoping Mor Ephrem can clarify the issue regarding what Girl's church is exactly, and what relationship if any it has to the genuine Malankara Oriental Orthodox Church. Was jmjedi's assessment of her church in a previous thread correct? I don't see how her church could possibly be part of any canonical Oriental Orthodox Church if it ordains women priests; our Coptic Patriarch His Holiness Pope Shenouda III even wrote a polemical book directed against both female and homosexual priests specifically, and members of the Holy Coptic Synod have on a number occasions walked out of ecumenical dialogues with Anglicans whenever they have persisted in pushing forth the issue of female and homosexual priests.

Peace.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2005, 09:42:21 PM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

No longer an active member of this forum. Sincerest apologies to anyone who has taken offence to anything posted in youthful ignorance or negligence prior to my leaving this forum - October, 2012.

"Philosophy is the imitation by a man of what is better, according to what is possible" - St Severus
cizinec
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 941


There ain't no way but the hard way.


« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2005, 10:23:39 PM »

I think they have a lottery and whoever has the unlucky losing number has to become the priest.

Seriously, though, with the garbage priests have to put up with, I don't know how they do it.
Logged

"Brother, your best friend ain't your Momma, it's the Field Artillery."
Girl
Search the unknown
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 165


« Reply #23 on: July 13, 2005, 11:34:51 PM »

The father of my church is a bishop elect and was sopposed to be ordained an American Orthodox Bishop, July 3rd but our Arch Bishop, Veron Ashe, was not able to make it so the ordination had to be delayed, obviously someone can not become a bishop if no one supports them.  Undecided
Logged

"Go out and make disciples of all nations" (Mathew 28:19)
Ian Lazarus
The Main Man!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: AOA
Posts: 1,545


yIjah, Qey' 'oH!


« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2005, 12:06:57 AM »

Dear Girl:

This is not a question of simply whether a bishop supports him.  Its a question of whether the jurisdiction itself is valid and in communion with either an EO or an OO jurisdiction.  The church of which this Mar Enoch (Vernon Ashe) is a part of is listed among the churches that are not associated with either, and therfore is not a valid Orthodox jurisdiction.  Though he may dress like an OO bishop, he is not an OO bishop.  Just because he calls the Holy Qurbana by it's proper name from the Syriac/ Indian tradition, it does not mean it is a valid sacrament.  I say this not out of a spirit of meanness, nor from haughtiness, but from fact.  No Orthodox Church claims them.  I would encourage you to ask other priests and bishops from other churches, particualarly Orthodox, about the status of your church in relation to them.  For the EO Part, you can visit and email people at these addresses where it says "contact us":

www.antiochian.org

www.oca.org

www.goarch.org

There are more, buth that is all that comes to mind for the moment.

I can say this without reservation. No Orthodox Church, be it Oriental or Eastern, has women priests.  It is not done following the Holy Tradition of the Church.  There are no acceptions to the rule.

Again not picking, just informing.


Peace.

Ian Lazarus           
Logged

"For I am With thee, withersoever thou goest"

Joshua 1:9
Girl
Search the unknown
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 165


« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2005, 12:24:04 AM »

Listen............ I am going to stick with what I believe. There are other jurisdictions that accept us, to be ordained a bishop you need at LEAST three other bishops present and in agreement, are these three other bishops not really valid Bishops either? Is it possible for three men to become "in valid" bishops/arch bishops with out anyone saying anything about it, until now? I say NO.
Logged

"Go out and make disciples of all nations" (Mathew 28:19)
choirfiend
ManIsChristian=iRnotgrEek.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 903

Rachael weeping for her children, for they are not


« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2005, 12:36:23 AM »

Girl,

What organizations do you share communion with, since you say there are some?
Logged

Qui cantat, bis orat
Timos
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 856



« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2005, 01:04:58 AM »

Hey all, these are Mr. Ashe's website:

http://www.archbishopashe.com/index2.html

http://www.churchofmiami.org/

I scoured it for its "apostolic lineage" or "orthodox affiliation" but failed at finding anything...however...I did find this quote:

"THE CHURCH OF MIAMI is orthodox in doctrine, evangelical in ethos, and charismatic in expression." So its like they are a mix...they got the orthodox faith on paper but they practise like protestants? I'm pretty sure that is not possible.

Girl, I don't mean to demean your church in any way but there is a difference between your church and the Orthodox church. The Orthodox Church is the chruch of Christ, founded by Christ Himself who gave it to the Apostles to be caretakers over it. The Orthodox Church is as old as the Apostles themselves, ooo about 2000 years.

Can you tell us what source your church comes from please?

Please don't take what I said in a negative way,

Christ be with us all,
                            Timos
Logged
Girl
Search the unknown
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 165


« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2005, 01:09:56 AM »

http://www.marthomaorthodoxchurch.com/history.html     there is our history.

Choirfiend,

I was saying that these bishops have to come from some chruch, so obviously there are others who accept us.
Logged

"Go out and make disciples of all nations" (Mathew 28:19)
choirfiend
ManIsChristian=iRnotgrEek.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 903

Rachael weeping for her children, for they are not


« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2005, 01:36:29 AM »

Unfortunately, sometimes bishops break from their churches. They then start their own churches and ordain whomever they like and teach whatever they like. These churches are not part of the Orthodox Church. The history of your church leaves out details between 1892 and 1997. It also states that the first bishop of your church was consecrated by two Malankara bishops and an "independent Catholic" one. You cannot consecrate an Orthodox bishop using a Catholic one, even one that is "Independent" or not part of the RCC.

Claiming apostolic succession through a Catholic(?) bishop doesn't work to be Orthodox. Just claiming apostolic succession of any sort isnt enough! You must teach and do what has been believed "by all, in all places and all times." The ordination of women priests has never been done in Orthodoxy for good reason and will never be done.

Again, what groups is your church in communion with? You gotta be able to answer that question. Orthodoxy is a communion.
Logged

Qui cantat, bis orat
Kosmas
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 66


« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2005, 06:47:44 AM »

Hi Everyone,

I'm new here and hope to post many more messages in the future.

By the way I think that to become a good priest you need to be trained and educated. The days of the uneducated village priest are over. In those days it was not realy necessary to be overly educated. Now days we have to be very prepared. Because, there are all kinds of 'worlves' waiting to take our faithful 'lambs' away from the true fold.

But we should reach out with  a great deal of patience, love and gentleness to the lost 'lambs' and 'sheep' for them to return.

In Christ

Fr. Chrysostomos
« Last Edit: July 14, 2005, 06:51:50 AM by Fr Chrysostomos » Logged

«Ουδείς εκών κακός» Σωκράτης
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2005, 06:32:12 PM »

All this nonsense is exactly why there needs to be, and is, a Standard of Orthodoxy, a Centre of our Communion. Without this standard anyone can claim to be an Orthodox Bishop because they were ordained by the fourth cousin thrice removed of a real Orthodox Bishop.

This Standard of Communion' has long been, and yet remains, the Holy and Oecumenical Throne of Constantinople...all who are in communion with Her are Orthodox, all out of Communion with Her are Heterodox.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
yBeayf
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 708

/etc


« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2005, 06:33:11 PM »

So what happens if by some chance the Ecumenical Patriarchate ceases to be Orthodox?

If every other Orthodox church broke communion with the EP, would they all cease to be Orthodox? IOW, is the EP the standard of Orthodoxy simply by virtue of being the EP, and Orthodoxy is whatever the EP believes, or is the EP the standard because they are the first among the churches and still hold to the faith? If the latter, then that's fine. If the former, then you've just reinvented the papacy.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2005, 06:37:28 PM by Beayf » Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Posts: 29,960


black metal cat


« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2005, 06:40:41 PM »

Someone should do a serious study of neo-papal-patriarchalism some day, maybe as a thesis for college. I have read tidbits here and there enough to know that this problem isn't a modern, or even post-Great-Schism, phenomenon. As long as there has been a Constantinople, there have been people claiming that she was the bestower of Orthodoxy. The role of the first among equals is validatory (= to support or corroborate), not to be the authoritarian final word on who is and isn't Orthodox. For Pete's sake, Constantinople has been in heresy more than any of the other five Sees in the so-called Pentarchy, and this in spite of it having the shortest history!
« Last Edit: July 14, 2005, 07:07:45 PM by Paradosis » Logged

"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2005, 06:48:29 PM »

So what happens if by some chance the Ecumenical Patriarchate ceases to be Orthodox?

If every other Orthodox church broke communion with the EP, would they all cease to be Orthodox? IOW, is the EP the standard of Orthodoxy simply by virtue of being the EP, and Orthodoxy is whatever the EP believes, or is the EP the standard because they are the first among the churches and still hold to the faith? If the latter, then that's fine. If the former, then you've just reinvented the papacy.

It would depend on the manner of their departure, if they all broke communion, each Church acting independently, then yes, they would cease to be Orthodox. Now if Communion was broken by the decree of an Oecumenical Synod, that's another issue; for it was an Oecumenical Synod that first Gave Constantinople the Rights and Honours she now Enjoys.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Veniamin
Fire for Effect!
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA Diocese of the South
Posts: 3,372


St. Barbara, patroness of the Field Artillery


« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2005, 07:02:44 PM »

It would depend on the manner of their departure, if they all broke communion, each Church acting independently, then yes, they would cease to be Orthodox. Now if Communion was broken by the decree of an Oecumenical Synod, that's another issue; for it was an Oecumenical Synod that first Gave Constantinople the Rights and Honours she now Enjoys.

So if a Nestorian Arian were to become EP and all the other Churches broke communion as a result, they would cease to be Orthodox because of it? Shocked
Logged

Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl. ~Frederick the Great
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2005, 07:29:47 PM »

Perhaps you could produce some patristic evidence that communion with Constantinople is the sine qua non of Orthodoxy?   Many great saints and fathers have found themselves out of communion with Conastantinople at various times.  Or conversely was the Russian "Living Church" of the 1920s Orthodox because they were in communion with Constantinople?
Logged
Ebor
Vanyar
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,421



« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2005, 07:39:24 PM »

Actually in the United States the word Seminary means only school of upper education.ÂÂ  Indeed prior to the rise of the Colleges for women, most women who were educated in what we now call high school and junior college went to Seminary.ÂÂ  My grandmother was a graduate from such a seminary here in Texas..
In Christ,
Thomas


"Three little maids who, all unwary
Come from a ladies' seminary
Freed from its genius tutelary
Three little maids from school
Three little maids from school"

the Refrain from "Three Little Maids from School are We"  From "The Mikado" by Gilbert and Sullivan

 Grin

Verse 1:
"Three little maids from school are we
Pert as a school-girl well can be
Filled to the brim with girlish glee
Three little maids from school"


The use of the term "Seminary" for a place of education for ladies goes back at least to 1694 with Mary Astells  "A Serious Proposal to the Ladies"
http://www.litencyc.com/php/sworks.php?rec=true&UID=10533

And from "Etymology Online"

Seminary "c.1440, "plot where plants are raised from seeds," from L. seminarium "plant nursery," figuratively, "breeding ground," from seminarius "of seed," from semen (gen. seminis) "seed" (see semen). Meaning "school for training priests" first recorded 1581; commonly used for any school (especially academies for young ladies) from 1585 to 1930s. Seminarian "seminary student" is attested from 1584."

From your friendly neighborhood researcher,

Ebor
Logged

"I wish they would remember that the charge to Peter was "Feed my sheep", not "Try experiments on my rats", or even "Teach my performing dogs new tricks". - C. S. Lewis

The Katana of Reasoned Discussion

For some a world view is more like a neighborhood watch.
Nigula Qian Zishi
Administrator Emeritus, Retired Deacon, Inactive Poster, Active Orthodox Christian, Father, and Husband
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 1,836


我美丽的妻子和我。

nstanosheck
WWW
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2005, 07:46:05 PM »


The Pastoral School of the Diocese of Chicago and Detroit of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad is now accepting applications for the fall semester beginning in September of 2005. The application deadline is August 1st.

 

The goal of the program is to provide students with a sound theological education through a distance-learning format. The program is designed for individuals who:
 

I. Are unable to attend an Orthodox seminary, but nonetheless feel called to serve the Church through parish ministry;
II. Are already in the ranks of the clergy, but would like to advance their education through Continuing Theological Education credit (CTE);

III. As laity would like to learn more about the Orthodox Church through a structured academic program.

 

All interested individuals should write to Priest Martin Swanson for an application or for additional information.
 

The Pastoral School of the Diocese of Chicago and Detroit Of the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad
c/o Rev. Father Martin Swanson, Ph.D.

127 E. Clinton Place 2a

Kirkwwod, MO 63122

 

Or email Father Martin at: rmswanson@primary.net
 More information about the program can be obtained here.
Logged

在基督         My Original Blog
尼古拉         My Facebook Profile
前执事         My Twitter Page
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2005, 01:33:11 AM »

So if a Nestorian Arian were to become EP and all the other Churches broke communion as a result, they would cease to be Orthodox because of it? Shocked

We've already had a Nestorian Patriarch of Constantinople...Nestorius; he was anathematized using the proper Method, an Oecumenical Synod. If there is a Nestorian Patriarch of Constantinople, and Oecumenical Synod should be used to anathematize him, not individual Patriarchal Synods who have no jurisdiction and lack the authority to condemn the Oecumenical Patriarch. If their solution to the problem was simply to break Communion they would enter into Schism, and yes, cease to be Orthodox. For Orthodoxy is as much communion as it is doctrinal, if not more so. You confuse the priority of the Church and Dogmatics: a doctrine is Orthodox because it is accepted by the Communion of the Church, one is Not Orthodox because they hold to certain doctrines.

Perhaps you could produce some patristic evidence that communion with Constantinople is the sine qua non of Orthodoxy? Many great saints and fathers have found themselves out of communion with Conastantinople at various times. Or conversely was the Russian "Living Church" of the 1920s Orthodox because they were in communion with Constantinople?

I would start with the commentaries of Balsamon, Zonaras, and Aristenus, especially the latter, as well as documents on the Subject surrounding the Fourth Oecumenical Synod. Concerning the Living Church, did Constantinople enter into Communion with them or just favour them in the debates of the time? If they did not enter into Communion the question is moot. If there was communion, then it must be said that they were certainly more Orthodox than the Schismatic group that was out of Communion.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2005, 02:21:28 AM »

But none of those say that Constantinople is the sine qua non of Orthodoxy - and if we take the logic to its final end, than Constantinople had no right to break communion with Rome unless an ecumenical synod had first condemned Rome.  So are those who refused communion with the iconiclasts even before the seventh council to numbered among the schismatics, along with Saint Maximos the confessor and Saint Mark of Ephesos?  Applying a papal model to Orthodoxy will force you to condemn many saints. 

Quote
Concerning the Living Church, did Constantinople enter into Communion with them or just favour them in the debates of the time? If they did not enter into Communion the question is moot. If there was communion, then it must be said that they were certainly more Orthodox than the Schismatic group that was out of Communion.

Patriarch Meletios entered into communion with the Living Church and saw them as the sole legitimate synod of Russia - not the synod of Saint Tikhon.  Now pray tell, which group during this time was the "Schismatic group" that was present in Russia?
Logged
GiC
Resident Atheist
Site Supporter
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Mathematician
Posts: 9,490



« Reply #41 on: July 15, 2005, 02:42:44 AM »

But none of those say that Constantinople is the sine qua non of Orthodoxy - and if we take the logic to its final end, than Constantinople had no right to break communion with Rome unless an ecumenical synod had first condemned Rome.ÂÂ  So are those who refused communion with the iconiclasts even before the seventh council to numbered among the schismatics, along with Saint Maximos the confessor and Saint Mark of Ephesos?ÂÂ  Applying a papal model to Orthodoxy will force you to condemn many saints.ÂÂ  

I believe you misunderstand the point, it's not that the Oecumenical Throne is either infallible or is the sine qua non of Orthodoxy, it is that the Oecumenical Throne is greatest Authority in Orthodoxy. At time the Oecumenical Throne may be wrong, but it is still Authoritive, it is Still the Centre of the Orthodox Communion, even if it may be subject to Correction at a later date. As the Church is based primarily on, and not Doctrine, one may cease to be in the Church, even though they are right for they have Broken Communion with the Church by Breaking Communion with the Oecumenical Throne. However, we must keep in mind that the Church is not an institution located only in one place and time, but an institution that transcends space and time. One may be removed from communion, and yet restored; and a bishop or patriarch who died in Communion, can later be excommunicated. So in the end it is the one excommunicated outside the Church and the one restored who is within the Church. But at the paticular time first mentioned, the person excommunicated (however unjustly) is still outside the Church.

The Saints do not have to be condemned to maintain Order in the Church and prevent the the anarchistic situation we see amongst various schismatic groups today where every layman is a synod unto himself.

Quote
Patriarch Meletios entered into communion with the Living Church and saw them as the sole legitimate synod of Russia - not the synod of Saint Tikhon.ÂÂ  Now pray tell, which group during this time was the "Schismatic group" that was present in Russia?

Out of curiosity, which Primate of the Living Church was entered into the Dyptics of the Great Church? But in any case, there would have been nothing inherently wrong with this Communion. The Revolution was a difficult time with various factions fighting for power, Constantinople was attempting to determine the Legitimate Ecclesiastical Authority in the New Communist State (and as Constantinople had been under the Turks for nearly 500 years, she was far from inexperienced in such matters), and eventually did...the problem of the time was that most factions were either revolutionaries or counter-revolutionaries, she eventually found and endorsed the entity that was simply a continuation of the Church, independent of Political Alliances, and was concerned for the Church first and foremost, not the state...with the death of the Tzar, the counter-revolution was a lost cause, and Constantinople realized this and refused to jeprodize the Church by supporting this quickly diminishing political faction.
Logged

"The liberties of people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them." -- Patrick Henry
choirfiend
ManIsChristian=iRnotgrEek.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 903

Rachael weeping for her children, for they are not


« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2005, 02:47:59 AM »

Ok, for the sake of my eyes, would it be possible to abide by common English useage instead of German and just capitalize the things that are supposed to be capitals?? I can't read it.
Logged

Qui cantat, bis orat
Silouan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 818

Bogurodzica dziewica zbaw nas


« Reply #43 on: July 15, 2005, 03:44:02 AM »

Agreed Choirfiend!  This odd mixture of forced attempts at British English in addition to what amounts to random capitilization (which is not exactly the German rule either) is very different to read.  Perhaps this is the only English form in which the subjects of the "Oecumenical Throne" are permitted to use. 

As to the points of GiC.  Your arguments are based on authority, which is the weakest of all arguments.  It has come to the point where many people here laugh at you every time you say "Oecumenical Throne."  Of those who were in schismatic groups and have since joined the Orthodox Church that I know, none of them were won over with authority.  It is grace, not authority that draws people to the Church.  But let us play along with your example, that one must stay in communion with the primus inter pares of the Church until an ecumenical synod condemns the primus inter pares.  The only churches that have done that are the Uniates since the Orthodox are schismatics for leaving the Roman communion. 

Regarding the condemning of saints - you have already done that with your previous implication concerning Saint John Maximovitch - a blasphemy equal to the Old Calendarists that deny the grace in the mysteries of the Church.  Were Elder Paisios the Athonite, Elder Joseph of Vatopaidi, Elder Ephraim of Katounakia, Elder Ephraim of Philotheou, Elder Haralamabros of Dionisiou or Elder George of Grigoriou schismatics because they didn't commerate Patriarch Athenagoras?  So yes your papalism condemns saints of the past and the living fathers of our era.

Quote
But in any case, there would have been nothing inherently wrong with this Communion.

That is exactly the essence of the problem - you see the Church as an administrative entity.  The Russian Living Church was an heretical body condemned by Saint Tikhon's synod - think TomS as a patriarch to get the picture.  The point is that yes, there is something inherently wrong with holding communion with heretics. 

Your assertation that this was a confused time for the Russian church is actually incorrect - it wasn't until later, the statement of Patriarch Sergius, that several competing groups came into play.  There was at the time of Living Church only the legitimate synod of the Russian Church (which was apolitical) and the Living Church (supported the communists).  As for who was the head of the living church - I'll leave you to do some much needed research on the Russian Church of this time period... it is a very interesting and telling tale actually.       
Logged
ania
Life according to Abe Simpson:
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,097



« Reply #44 on: July 15, 2005, 10:49:45 AM »

Ok, for the sake of my eyes, would it be possible to abide by common English useage instead of German and just capitalize the things that are supposed to be capitals?? I can't read it.

tHAnk yOU!!!!!!!!!
Logged

Now where were we? Oh yeah - the important thing was I had an onion on my belt, which was the style at the time. They didn’t have white onions because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
Tags: ROCOR Seminary 
Pages: 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.138 seconds with 72 queries.