Author Topic: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.  (Read 15652 times)

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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #180 on: October 10, 2015, 03:53:20 AM »
How is being called a heretic or an adulterer not a personal attack? How is that permitted, but me calling someone a Donatist a bridge too far? If people want to ruffle my feathers, that's fine. I only ask that I can do so in return. By all means, I'll comply with your request, but I'd like to know more details.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 03:57:45 AM by Rohzek »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #181 on: October 10, 2015, 04:04:01 AM »
How is being called a heretic or an adulterer not a personal attack?
Who has called you a heretic? I'd like to see it.

How is that permitted, but me calling someone a Donatist a bridge too far?
If no one has called you a heretic, then you are going too far to call them something they never called you. If someone did call you a heretic, that is a violation of forum rules and therefore punishable, but just as punishable is your act of calling your opponents heretics.

If people want to ruffle my feathers, that's fine.
You don't have to let anyone ruffle your feathers. Despite what others may say of you, you can choose to not let it anger you. You cannot control what others say to you, but you can control how you respond. You will even be held responsible for how you choose to respond, so choose your response wisely.

I only ask that I can do so in return.
If it is wrong for others to attack you personally, then it is equally wrong for you to retaliate by attacking others in the same way that they attack you. Speaking now as a moderator, if someone punches you and you punch back, you will both be punished.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2015, 04:07:37 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #182 on: October 10, 2015, 08:55:02 AM »
Every time I take communion, I too get images of ... I even get all tsundere about it too.


How lovely.
James' somewhat baffling analogy aside (which is truly fuel for a good therapist's session), this place seems awash lately with folks who can't differentiate crude and blasphemous from clever.
And I ain't exactly a prude, at least not in the way so many folks here feign.

Interesting analogy as I've come to the same issues as James. We are the Bride of Christ so there is some ecstasy involved in knowing Him.
Descriptors aside, I find it....many things.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #183 on: October 10, 2015, 12:28:18 PM »
So here's my point: I respect how you came to your conclusion, and I respect the fact that your Priest allows it, but please, stop calling those who disagree with your interpretation "Donatists."
Rohzek hasn't called anyone a Donatist on this thread, though he has called certain beliefs Donatist. You're making the same mistake he's making. You're conflating criticism of beliefs with criticism of persons. They're not the same.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #184 on: October 10, 2015, 01:47:59 PM »
I'm sorry, but have you ever been Catholic? Because I have. And I can tell you now that even when Catholic, I experienced the grace of God in their sacraments. I'm in the best and true Church now, but I'm not always near by it. Here's a news flash, I live in North America. How easy is it to access an Orthodox Church, especially when one is a college student constantly on the move attending conferences, etc.? I can tell you that it is quite the logistical challenge. I have dispensation from my priest to take Catholic sacraments if I feel that I really want to. By all means, continue in your Donatism. Nevermind the fact that Optatus and Augustine, and even Tychonius all affirmed the validity of sacraments outside the true and full Orthodox Church. While they said it was less than ideal to receive the sacraments outside the Orthodox Church, they nevertheless confirmed their validity. If you want to say that I am affirming heresy, I highly suggest you look in the mirror. You're affirming a heresy from about 1600-1700 years ago.

Some of us, myself included, have been in situations where an Orthodox church was not as easy to get to as a Roman Catholic church.  We managed to survive without availing ourselves of Roman Catholic sacraments, despite our opinions on its (in)validity.  At this point, I don't think we're really talking about whether RC sacraments are just as good as Orthodox sacraments or if they're good enough or what have you.  It seems to me we're really talking about the spiritual needs, real or perceived, of some Orthodox who avail themselves of RC sacraments versus the spiritual needs, real or perceived, of those who don't.  That's a more subjective discussion, and while there are some objective truths which are relevant, you're not going to be able to make the case for RC sacraments based on your needs or feelings.  That kind of conversation is doomed.

If your priest has allowed you to receive RC sacraments, that's between you and him, but I'm not sure it proves anything.  I know of priests who have recommended masturbation as an antidote to fornication, yet I would not be correct to conclude that masturbation was acceptable according to Orthodox teaching and practice.  Priests can and do err. 

Finally, I'd like to know where you're getting your information on Donatism. 

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #185 on: October 10, 2015, 02:07:02 PM »
In short, you extrapolate people's interior motivations, and their relationship with Christ from outside appearances alone. That is ridiculous.

So if you caught your Latin wife sleeping with another man, would you refrain from judging her since apparently her exterior act of adultery does not reflect her interior motivation and relationship with you?

I'm sorry. Like most people, I don't associate eating and drinking of the Eucharist with sexual activity in the bedroom. So let's just say your analogy is lost on me.

Rohzek, meet JamesR.  :P

I don't think James' analogy associates communing with sexual activity in the way you seem to have taken it.  His analogy is, roughly, one I've heard more often from Roman Catholics than from other Christians.  According to this theory, for example, the altar and the celebration of the Eucharist is for the priest what the marriage bed and sexual intercourse are for a married man and woman: it is the highest and most sublime expression of and actualisation of their identity and vocation in Christ. 

If one accepts this analogy, and perhaps even without it, it is not a stretch to view "closed communion" in these terms.  The Church is the bride of Christ, betrothed to him at the Jordan and wedded to him on Golgotha.  She becomes one flesh with him (to the extent that she herself can be called the body of Christ) through his sacrificial offering and her partaking of it in the Eucharist.  It is the highest and most sublime expression of and actualisation of our identity and vocation in Christ. 

But the Eucharist is not an independent phenomenon, it is linked closely with the Church.  It is within the Church that Christ celebrates the Eucharist.  If we accept the Eucharist of others (e.g., Roman Catholics) as the Eucharist of the Church, we are admitting that those others are in some real way one with the Church.  But there are any number of other issues which make such an admission difficult to make.  Without addressing those issues, it is not difficult to see how someone could view "open communion" as a form of infidelity. 

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #186 on: October 10, 2015, 02:10:24 PM »
As for demanding that I stop calling others who insult me Donatists, I refuse. How many times have I been compared to an adulterer, called unorthodox, asked "why don't you just go join the Catholic Church," called a Brazilian (as though that is somehow a negative thing), said to be hard-hearted, or outright labelled a heretic, all because I took the Eucharist at a Catholic mass? I was met with demands to talk to my priest, which I felt no need to talk to him about. But I did, and he agreed with my reasonings for why I did take communion at a Catholic mass. And when I told those here the results of my conversation, they moved goals posts and called me adulterer again. It seems to me that such people aren't the sort who care so much about understanding or critical thought, but rather care more about presenting themselves as "all-holy." These aren't trivial accusations. For example, being hard-hearted means being compared to an absolute monarch that enslaved an entire nation and ordered a mass genocide of the first born. It's not very flattering nor does it leave a good impression. It's been pretty rough over this one single issue. I generally refrain from being abrasive or gruff, but if this is the sort of thing that is going to occur, then I will make the case for their own heretical errors. I will defend myself.

Just for the sake of comparison, I've upset a lot of Catholics over at CAF by correcting their completely inaccurate views of history and on more than one occasion pointing out the absurdity of Thomism (Aquinas either being a tacit atheist or patheist). Despite all of that though, I've never encountered there, of all places, so many personal attacks simply because I put forth an argument that doesn't fit their mold. Rather, instead, people attempted to debate the merits of the argument, not issue preposterous personal attacks. And while many people here have done me the honor of debating the merits of my points, many have also engaged in the behavior that I have aforementioned. And it is with the latter group whom I have a bone of contention with, not the former.

I'm not sure if you consider me one of the offenders, but in any case, I ask your forgiveness. 

Regardless, based on what you wrote above, it seems like you are prone to misunderstanding a lot. 

Offline JamesR

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #187 on: October 10, 2015, 10:20:54 PM »
Quantity is not a substitute for quality.

Being Orthodox and therefore not believing in the validity of the Roman Catholic sacraments, I would rather only receive them a few times a year at an Orthodox parish knowing that they are genuine than receive them every week from a Catholic parish knowing that they are invalid. Frequency does not change the validity or invalidity of sacraments.
Why does Orthodoxy necessarily mean not believing in the validity of the Roman Catholic sacraments?

Because the Holy Spirit was delivered to the Church and to the Church alone on Pentecost.

Offline JamesR

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #188 on: October 10, 2015, 10:39:23 PM »
I'm sorry, but have you ever been Catholic?

I have fond memories of attending a Catholic Church with my Mexican grandmother as a small child.

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Because I have. And I can tell you now that even when Catholic, I experienced the grace of God in their sacraments.

As do the Lutherans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, Scientologists and adherents of every other religion, though it doesn't make them true. Your feelings mean nothing, and if they didn't lead you to the truth of Orthodoxy, then they're just the delusions of demons.

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I'm in the best and true Church now, but I'm not always near by it.

So you commit adultery on it like a housewife whose military husband is deployed.

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Here's a news flash, I live in North America. How easy is it to access an Orthodox Church, especially when one is a college student constantly on the move attending conferences, etc.?

Difficult, but now answer this: how does quantity create quality? The Sacraments are either valid or invalid. Frequency does not change that. Receiving them all the time at a Catholic Church will not magically make them valid, just as receiving them only once in a while at an Orthodox Church will not magically make them less important or valid.

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I have dispensation from my priest to take Catholic sacraments if I feel that I really want to.

Which means that either your priest is in error, or more likely, he doesn't truly take you seriously and is just entertaining you. Are you really Orthodox? Have you been received? Or are you just another lifelong inquirer?

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By all means, continue in your Donatism.

Continue your adultery.

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Nevermind the fact that Optatus and Augustine, and even Tychonius all affirmed the validity of sacraments outside the true and full Orthodox Church.

One of which isn't a saint in the Orthodox Church (Optatus) and another (St. Augustine) who is already viewed with caution due to his errors.

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While they said it was less than ideal to receive the sacraments outside the Orthodox Church, they nevertheless confirmed their validity.

For who? Those who know no better? Don't equate yourself with the heathens. St. Paul makes it clear for us that you cannot partake of the Lord's table and the table of demons. Whatever God is doing for those outside of the Church is between Him and them, but as for us, we know very well what is expected and laid out for us. So that does not give us a license to commune with heretics.

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If you want to say that I am affirming heresy, I highly suggest you look in the mirror. You're affirming a heresy from about 1600-1700 years ago.

The misotheism?  ;)

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #189 on: October 11, 2015, 12:04:21 AM »
Quantity is not a substitute for quality.

Being Orthodox and therefore not believing in the validity of the Roman Catholic sacraments, I would rather only receive them a few times a year at an Orthodox parish knowing that they are genuine than receive them every week from a Catholic parish knowing that they are invalid. Frequency does not change the validity or invalidity of sacraments.
Why does Orthodoxy necessarily mean not believing in the validity of the Roman Catholic sacraments?

Because the Holy Spirit was delivered to the Church and to the Church alone on Pentecost.
That's an explanation I've never heard before. Who taught you to conclude this from the Pentecost story? ???
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #190 on: October 11, 2015, 12:23:13 AM »
I'm sorry, but have you ever been Catholic?

I have fond memories of attending a Catholic Church with my Mexican grandmother as a small child.

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Because I have. And I can tell you now that even when Catholic, I experienced the grace of God in their sacraments.

As do the Lutherans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, Scientologists and adherents of every other religion, though it doesn't make them true. Your feelings mean nothing, and if they didn't lead you to the truth of Orthodoxy, then they're just the delusions of demons.
Really? Says who?

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I'm in the best and true Church now, but I'm not always near by it.

So you commit adultery on it like a housewife whose military husband is deployed.

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Here's a news flash, I live in North America. How easy is it to access an Orthodox Church, especially when one is a college student constantly on the move attending conferences, etc.?

Difficult, but now answer this: how does quantity create quality? The Sacraments are either valid or invalid. Frequency does not change that. Receiving them all the time at a Catholic Church will not magically make them valid,
Not if they already are valid. Again, who taught you your take on the sacraments?

just as receiving them only once in a while at an Orthodox Church will not magically make them less important or valid.

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I have dispensation from my priest to take Catholic sacraments if I feel that I really want to.

Which means that either your priest is in error, or more likely, he doesn't truly take you seriously and is just entertaining you. Are you really Orthodox? Have you been received? Or are you just another lifelong inquirer?
And what about you? Are you really Orthodox, or is this just the pendulum swinging to the extreme opposite your hatred of God? When will the pendulum swing back?

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By all means, continue in your Donatism.

Continue your adultery.
Who are you to judge?

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Nevermind the fact that Optatus and Augustine, and even Tychonius all affirmed the validity of sacraments outside the true and full Orthodox Church.

One of which isn't a saint in the Orthodox Church (Optatus) and another (St. Augustine) who is already viewed with caution due to his errors.
You got any proof of your former claim? St. Optatus lived and died in the 4th century, when the Latin West and the Greek East were still one Church.

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While they said it was less than ideal to receive the sacraments outside the Orthodox Church, they nevertheless confirmed their validity.

For who? Those who know no better? Don't equate yourself with the heathens. St. Paul makes it clear for us that you cannot partake of the Lord's table and the table of demons. Whatever God is doing for those outside of the Church is between Him and them, but as for us, we know very well what is expected and laid out for us.
Speak for yourself, James. Don't use this royal "us".

So that does not give us a license to commune with heretics.

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If you want to say that I am affirming heresy, I highly suggest you look in the mirror. You're affirming a heresy from about 1600-1700 years ago.

The misotheism?  ;)
Well, one could certainly say that your hatred of God (which is what misotheism means) really makes your spirited and tactless defense of His Church quite odd, to say the least. If you really hate God as much as you often claim, then why do you care so much about His Church?
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Offline Flavius Hesychius

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #191 on: October 11, 2015, 02:58:52 AM »
To answer the OP:

No, I would not. Receiving the Eucharist in a Catholic parish would be making a public statement that I believe the doctrines of the RCC—errors which I publicly renounced at Chrismation.

Would I go to Mass to hear the Word, and to have some sort of Christian social life? Yeah, I would (ignoring the whole lex orandi, lex credendi principle). But I wouldn't dare receive there.
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Offline JamesR

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #192 on: October 11, 2015, 04:53:49 AM »
If you really hate God as much as you often claim, then why do you care so much about His Church?

Because she's my mother and I love her, even if I hate my father.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #193 on: October 11, 2015, 10:09:47 AM »
Something that folks need to look at a little more closely.  There's never been a time in the Orthodox-Catholic schism when there has not been intercommunion somewhere.  There have been times in both the Catholic Church and in Orthodoxy where it has been more strictly forbidden than at other times, but there's never been a time when there's not been intercommunion acknowledged and practiced. 

Part of my decades long preparation to enter Orthodoxy came from an Orthodox metropolitan who would not have turned me away had I stood in front of him in a communion line.  He did not invite but he also did not refuse.  I never did, for my own reasons.  But that is not the only place where I could have received communion in an Orthodox liturgy, though I did not.

Now that I am in communion with Orthodoxy, I will abide the strictures against receiving Catholic communion, in obedience, not because I think that the Catholic Church has a different faith or lacks grace.  I am not the only one who thinks as I do and is Orthodox.

Sometimes it is just better to accept the fact that we are in some senses like the six blind monks and the elephant and we see things quite differently from one another even though we are all in communion.  Best to leave it right there if we are not in charge.

M.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #194 on: October 11, 2015, 10:50:38 AM »
Something that folks need to look at a little more closely.  There's never been a time in the Orthodox-Catholic schism when there has not been intercommunion somewhere.  There have been times in both the Catholic Church and in Orthodoxy where it has been more strictly forbidden than at other times, but there's never been a time when there's not been intercommunion acknowledged and practiced. 

Part of my decades long preparation to enter Orthodoxy came from an Orthodox metropolitan who would not have turned me away had I stood in front of him in a communion line.  He did not invite but he also did not refuse.  I never did, for my own reasons.  But that is not the only place where I could have received communion in an Orthodox liturgy, though I did not.

Now that I am in communion with Orthodoxy, I will abide the strictures against receiving Catholic communion, in obedience, not because I think that the Catholic Church has a different faith or lacks grace.  I am not the only one who thinks as I do and is Orthodox.

Sometimes it is just better to accept the fact that we are in some senses like the six blind monks and the elephant and we see things quite differently from one another even though we are all in communion.  Best to leave it right there if we are not in charge.

M.

Why bother switching if you don't see the difference between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism? I'm honestly curious.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2015, 10:51:04 AM by Cyrillic »

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #195 on: October 11, 2015, 11:29:49 AM »
It was no bother at all  :)

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #196 on: October 11, 2015, 11:55:23 AM »
It was no bother at all  :)

What's the reason you did it, though?

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #197 on: October 11, 2015, 11:55:49 AM »
To answer the OP:

No, I would not. Receiving the Eucharist in a Catholic parish would be making a public statement that I believe the doctrines of the RCC—errors which I publicly renounced at Chrismation.

Would I go to Mass to hear the Word, and to have some sort of Christian social life? Yeah, I would (ignoring the whole lex orandi, lex credendi principle). But I wouldn't dare receive there.

I like your name but I can't find "Latinissimus" as a real term

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #198 on: October 11, 2015, 12:05:12 PM »
One thing I did not do was to enter communion in Orthodoxy to become an anti-Catholic Poster Girl.  If you go back and read the interviews that were posted on-line with Hieromonk Gabriel Bunge, you will find that he expresses many of the same kinds of things that drew me into Orthodoxy over time.  He waited till he was 70.  I decided not to wait quite that long, though I am in my 60s.  The very simple bottom line is that I practiced liturgically and spiritually as an Orthodox believer in an Orthodox parish and at home for nearly two decades.  I could not longer be anything else....M.

Offline Flavius Hesychius

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Re: Roman Catholicism as the "next-best thing" to Orthodoxy, and vice versa.
« Reply #199 on: October 11, 2015, 04:54:22 PM »
I like your name but I can't find "Latinissimus" as a real term

Can't "find", as in 'searching the dictionary', or as in 'I don't think'.

It's an adjective, latinus, in the superlative (the -issimus ending). It's not going to come up in a dictionary search; most normal dictionaries don't list superlative and comparative forms, unless it's absolutely necessary.
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