Author Topic: 'Can't see, can't believe'  (Read 833 times)

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Offline andrewlya

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'Can't see, can't believe'
« on: September 17, 2015, 04:06:34 PM »
Hi guys,
today at work I spoke to my colleague about religion. I asked him why he doesn't believe, he simply answered that what he does not see, or has not seen, he doesn't believe in.

How is it possible to show/explain to an atheist, or an agnostic, why we believe in God that we have not seen?

I kind of understand why some people don't believe because not everyone is blessed with a faith.

How can it be their fault if their hearts are hardened, if their parents or environment/society is secular or atheistic, they grow up being secular themselves as a result. Faith to them is a mere fairy story.

 How can we blame those people for not believing if they are brought up in a secular environment hence they don't have the faith?

Also,why does God require of us to believe in Him?

Why does not God make Himself known to us all so we all know that He exists?

Would not God instill belief in everyone from birth so all of us have faith and all we would have to do is to just follow His Commandments or simply be God obedient people?

To sum up,why do we have to believe in God in order to be saved rather?
Why has not God made Himself known to everyone from birth so everyone would know that God does really exist and there would not have been any atheists and everyone would have a belief.

Thank you for your thoughts.
I believe in ONE God the Father YHWH and I also believe in His Son Lord Yeshua,the Ha Mashiach.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: 'Can't see, can't believe'
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2015, 04:10:02 PM »
This is a whole lotta stuff in the universe that I believe exists without ever having seen it. I've never understood this logic.
God bless!

Offline biro

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Re: 'Can't see, can't believe'
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2015, 04:20:31 PM »
Yes. There are many things we can't see with the naked eye.

Also, seeing is not the only way to tell that something is real. Hearing, for instance.
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Offline Bryan Paul

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Re: 'Can't see, can't believe'
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2015, 04:25:05 PM »
Hi guys,
today at work I spoke to my colleague about religion. I asked him why he doesn't believe, he simply answered that what he does not see, or has not seen, he doesn't believe in.

How is it possible to show/explain to an atheist, or an agnostic, why we believe in God that we have not seen?
Through the witness of a life lived for Christ.
Quote
I kind of understand why some people don't believe because not everyone is blessed with a faith.

How can it be their fault if their hearts are hardened, if their parents or environment/society is secular or atheistic, they grow up being secular themselves as a result. Faith to them is a mere fairy story.
You're operating under the assumption that we are all just the sum of our experiences. God transcends this world and our experiences.
Quote
How can we blame those people for not believing if they are brought up in a secular environment hence they don't have the faith?

Also,why does God require of us to believe in Him?
Because he wants us to love Him. How can we love what we don't believe in?
Quote
Why does not God make Himself known to us all so we all know that He exists?
I'm sure you've seen this movie: The prince/billionaire/rockstar meets a girl. She doesn't know he's a prince/billionaire/rockstar. He falls for her, and he things she's falling for him, but he can't let her know that he's a prince/billionaire/rockstar until he's sure she's really in love with him, as a person, not just his power/money/fame.
If God made Himself known to us all right now, we'd have no choice but to bow down in the Glory of His Majesty. He wants more than subservience though; he wants our love.
Quote
Would not God instill belief in everyone from birth so all of us have faith and all we would have to do is to just follow His Commandments or simply be God obedient people?
Who says he didn't.
Quote
To sum up,why do we have to believe in God in order to be saved rather?
Why has not God made Himself known to everyone from birth so everyone would know that God does really exist and there would not have been any atheists and everyone would have a belief.

Thank you for your thoughts.
All answers taken from the Gospel according to Bryan.  :angel:
I have always found the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom to be so much more moving in the original Ukrainian.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: 'Can't see, can't believe'
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2015, 04:31:35 PM »
Hi guys,
today at work I spoke to my colleague about religion. I asked him why he doesn't believe, he simply answered that what he does not see, or has not seen, he doesn't believe in.

How is it possible to show/explain to an atheist, or an agnostic, why we believe in God that we have not seen?

I kind of understand why some people don't believe because not everyone is blessed with a faith.

How can it be their fault if their hearts are hardened, if their parents or environment/society is secular or atheistic, they grow up being secular themselves as a result. Faith to them is a mere fairy story.

 How can we blame those people for not believing if they are brought up in a secular environment hence they don't have the faith?

Also,why does God require of us to believe in Him?

Why does not God make Himself known to us all so we all know that He exists?

Would not God instill belief in everyone from birth so all of us have faith and all we would have to do is to just follow His Commandments or simply be God obedient people?

To sum up,why do we have to believe in God in order to be saved rather?
Why has not God made Himself known to everyone from birth so everyone would know that God does really exist and there would not have been any atheists and everyone would have a belief.

Thank you for your thoughts.

People who have decided to believe something rarely change their minds. But I have got some atheists who are science and mathematics admirers thinking with this:

I suspect you have seen π creating circles or maybe φ just about everywhere.

You could also put materialism to the test and go about destroying/killing wheels to see if the circle dies with the matter on which it existed. Suposing you took some measures before your wheelicide, the typical properties of the mathematical proportions of the wheel *still exist* even after the wheel is destroyed. In fact, that wheel can even be recreated if you know those proportions and it is going to have the same properties.

Now, this self-conscious I that is you, is it more likely to literally be the matter, the atoms, or to be like that specific circle and its proportions to that specific wheel? Can it be that we are a "logical" entity like a circle, only far more complex and self-conscious is one of our intrinsic attributes, and therefore even if a material expression of us (this body) is destroyed, the "logical form", aka, the spirit, still remains?

Usually they concede that it is at least a reasonable possibility they never thought of. From that point on though, they have already instilled the possibility in their imagination of a universe that can be caused by invisble intelligence, instead of the merely sensorial universe they imagined before.

If a person is blind to the circle that pre-exists and survives all wheels, how will they be able to see their own spirit or God?

Most of the time it is less about soft or hard hearts but a weakness of imagination. We live in a culture that forces us to remain slaved to sensorial perceptions and people deal with the real non-material objects of daily life in a merely pragmatical way, not thinking about the fact that such abstractions are not just the name of perceptions but subjacent realities.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 04:33:15 PM by Fabio Leite »
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline PeaceSerenity

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Re: 'Can't see, can't believe'
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2015, 04:32:52 PM »
I have a sense that some of the Fathers of the Church would say that God has instilled in all of us a desire/longing for Him and an awareness of His Will (in the form of our conscience), but that often through our lives we ignore that aspect of ourselves and bury it. At that point we no longer see an innate orientation towards God within ourselves. So it's not that God has not made Himself known to us individually, it's just that we are blind to it.

TheTrisagion expresses the irony of your friend's position very succinctly - most people believe in atoms, electrons, the stratosphere, all things that we personally haven't seen, on the testimony of others who we trust (to whom the mysteries of science/our world/the universe have been manifest). Similarly, we believe in God based on the testimony of the martyrs, the apostles, the Scriptures. I think for most atheists it's not a question of "not believing without seeing" but rather, not trusting the sources with which they are presented.

Ultimately, God does not "need" us to believe in Him, it is we who benefit from that belief. If we don't love God and want to be with him (and cultivate that desire here in this life), then will we even want to be in heaven where we will be worshipping Him for all eternity? God doesn't force anyone to believe in Him here on earth, and He will not force us to love Him for eternity.

Additionally, I would like to add, it's really not a question of "blaming" or "faulting" people who don't know God, or who aren't Christian - judgement belongs with God, and we are hardly capable of understanding His mercy.

Offline Amatorus

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Re: 'Can't see, can't believe'
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2015, 04:52:56 PM »
Tide goes in, tide goes out. You can't explain that.

Offline Vanhyo

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Re: 'Can't see, can't believe'
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2015, 06:33:05 AM »
Quote
How is it possible to show/explain to an atheist, or an agnostic, why we believe in God that we have not seen?
What do i mean not seen ? I See Christ Crusified on icons and everywhere...

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Re: 'Can't see, can't believe'
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2015, 06:37:47 AM »
Tide goes in, tide goes out. You can't explain that.

Yes, you can.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: 'Can't see, can't believe'
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2015, 10:42:00 AM »
This works for all forms of informational knowledge: It has to first becom imaginable, than it has to become possible, then probable and only then it becomes some form of knowledge or faith.

The problem with many young atheists is that God, at least God as Christianity teaches it, is not even imaginable.

Our culture, which is the main source of material for imagination, is Godless. God is not in movies, not in songs, not in literature, not at least in a non-catechetical way and by that I mean not as the "point" or "message" of the work of art, but as the subjacent reality in it. The problem with much Gospel art is precisely that it *talks* about God, but if you analyze closely the premises of the fictional world in there, it's not a world where God exists.

So, the first task is always to, somehow, make God imaginable again.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 10:42:35 AM by Fabio Leite »
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Amatorus

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Re: 'Can't see, can't believe'
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2015, 10:48:48 AM »
This works for all forms of informational knowledge: It has to first becom imaginable, than it has to become possible, then probable and only then it becomes some form of knowledge or faith.

The problem with many young atheists is that God, at least God as Christianity teaches it, is not even imaginable.

Our culture, which is the main source of material for imagination, is Godless. God is not in movies, not in songs, not in literature, not at least in a non-catechetical way and by that I mean not as the "point" or "message" of the work of art, but as the subjacent reality in it. The problem with much Gospel art is precisely that it *talks* about God, but if you analyze closely the premises of the fictional world in there, it's not a world where God exists.

So, the first task is always to, somehow, make God imaginable again.

I think the problem is that the laity have always seen The Father as, to quote an atheist, "magical sky daddy" rather than a truly infinite and incomprenhisible Creator entity. The media of course loves to beat dead horse and make fun of religion (conveniently only Christianity and sometimes Islam) at any turn. It's almost like there's a bias from prominent media executives or something.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 10:50:08 AM by Amatorus »

Offline Fabio Leite

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Re: 'Can't see, can't believe'
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2015, 11:57:26 AM »
This works for all forms of informational knowledge: It has to first becom imaginable, than it has to become possible, then probable and only then it becomes some form of knowledge or faith.

The problem with many young atheists is that God, at least God as Christianity teaches it, is not even imaginable.

Our culture, which is the main source of material for imagination, is Godless. God is not in movies, not in songs, not in literature, not at least in a non-catechetical way and by that I mean not as the "point" or "message" of the work of art, but as the subjacent reality in it. The problem with much Gospel art is precisely that it *talks* about God, but if you analyze closely the premises of the fictional world in there, it's not a world where God exists.

So, the first task is always to, somehow, make God imaginable again.

I think the problem is that the laity have always seen The Father as, to quote an atheist, "magical sky daddy" rather than a truly infinite and incomprenhisible Creator entity. The media of course loves to beat dead horse and make fun of religion (conveniently only Christianity and sometimes Islam) at any turn. It's almost like there's a bias from prominent media executives or something.

Again, it's an imagination problem. That's why so many authors recommend we read the lives of the saints. The benefit it brings is that it feeds our imagination with examples of how God acts is and what kind of Person(s) He is.
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: 'Can't see, can't believe'
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2015, 12:50:09 PM »
God became incarnate so that He can show us how we can humanly become God.  We can definitely "see" that.  Therefore, make him "see" God in yourself.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

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Offline andrewlya

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Re: 'Can't see, can't believe'
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2015, 09:34:58 AM »
This is a whole lotta stuff in the universe that I believe exists without ever having seen it. I've never understood this logic.
Yes, I forgot to tell him that he can't see his own brain so does it mean he doesn't not have it?
I believe in ONE God the Father YHWH and I also believe in His Son Lord Yeshua,the Ha Mashiach.
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Offline andrewlya

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Re: 'Can't see, can't believe'
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2015, 09:36:46 AM »
Hi guys,
today at work I spoke to my colleague about religion. I asked him why he doesn't believe, he simply answered that what he does not see, or has not seen, he doesn't believe in.

How is it possible to show/explain to an atheist, or an agnostic, why we believe in God that we have not seen?
Through the witness of a life lived for Christ.
Quote
I kind of understand why some people don't believe because not everyone is blessed with a faith.

How can it be their fault if their hearts are hardened, if their parents or environment/society is secular or atheistic, they grow up being secular themselves as a result. Faith to them is a mere fairy story.
You're operating under the assumption that we are all just the sum of our experiences. God transcends this world and our experiences.
Quote
How can we blame those people for not believing if they are brought up in a secular environment hence they don't have the faith?

Also,why does God require of us to believe in Him?
Because he wants us to love Him. How can we love what we don't believe in?
Quote
Why does not God make Himself known to us all so we all know that He exists?
I'm sure you've seen this movie: The prince/billionaire/rockstar meets a girl. She doesn't know he's a prince/billionaire/rockstar. He falls for her, and he things she's falling for him, but he can't let her know that he's a prince/billionaire/rockstar until he's sure she's really in love with him, as a person, not just his power/money/fame.
If God made Himself known to us all right now, we'd have no choice but to bow down in the Glory of His Majesty. He wants more than subservience though; he wants our love.
Quote
Would not God instill belief in everyone from birth so all of us have faith and all we would have to do is to just follow His Commandments or simply be God obedient people?
Who says he didn't.
Quote
To sum up,why do we have to believe in God in order to be saved rather?
Why has not God made Himself known to everyone from birth so everyone would know that God does really exist and there would not have been any atheists and everyone would have a belief.

Thank you for your thoughts.
All answers taken from the Gospel according to Bryan.  :angel:
Why does God gift certain people with a faith and other doesn't? Why can it be people's fault that they don't have faith if they have not been blessed with one? 
I believe in ONE God the Father YHWH and I also believe in His Son Lord Yeshua,the Ha Mashiach.
https://yrm.org/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Eusebian/
http://www.arianismtoday.com/

Offline andrewlya

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Re: 'Can't see, can't believe'
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2015, 09:38:27 AM »
Hi guys,
today at work I spoke to my colleague about religion. I asked him why he doesn't believe, he simply answered that what he does not see, or has not seen, he doesn't believe in.

How is it possible to show/explain to an atheist, or an agnostic, why we believe in God that we have not seen?
Through the witness of a life lived for Christ.
Quote
I kind of understand why some people don't believe because not everyone is blessed with a faith.

How can it be their fault if their hearts are hardened, if their parents or environment/society is secular or atheistic, they grow up being secular themselves as a result. Faith to them is a mere fairy story.
You're operating under the assumption that we are all just the sum of our experiences. God transcends this world and our experiences.
Quote
How can we blame those people for not believing if they are brought up in a secular environment hence they don't have the faith?

Also,why does God require of us to believe in Him?
Because he wants us to love Him. How can we love what we don't believe in?

How can one secular person love Someone that he has not seen or experienced?
I believe in ONE God the Father YHWH and I also believe in His Son Lord Yeshua,the Ha Mashiach.
https://yrm.org/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Eusebian/
http://www.arianismtoday.com/

Offline andrewlya

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Re: 'Can't see, can't believe'
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2015, 09:47:31 AM »
Hi guys,
today at work I spoke to my colleague about religion. I asked him why he doesn't believe, he simply answered that what he does not see, or has not seen, he doesn't believe in.

How is it possible to show/explain to an atheist, or an agnostic, why we believe in God that we have not seen?

I kind of understand why some people don't believe because not everyone is blessed with a faith.

How can it be their fault if their hearts are hardened, if their parents or environment/society is secular or atheistic, they grow up being secular themselves as a result. Faith to them is a mere fairy story.

 How can we blame those people for not believing if they are brought up in a secular environment hence they don't have the faith?

Also,why does God require of us to believe in Him?

Why does not God make Himself known to us all so we all know that He exists?

Would not God instill belief in everyone from birth so all of us have faith and all we would have to do is to just follow His Commandments or simply be God obedient people?

To sum up,why do we have to believe in God in order to be saved rather?
Why has not God made Himself known to everyone from birth so everyone would know that God does really exist and there would not have been any atheists and everyone would have a belief.

Thank you for your thoughts.

People who have decided to believe something rarely change their minds. But I have got some atheists who are science and mathematics admirers thinking with this:

I suspect you have seen π creating circles or maybe φ just about everywhere.

You could also put materialism to the test and go about destroying/killing wheels to see if the circle dies with the matter on which it existed. Suposing you took some measures before your wheelicide, the typical properties of the mathematical proportions of the wheel *still exist* even after the wheel is destroyed. In fact, that wheel can even be recreated if you know those proportions and it is going to have the same properties.

Now, this self-conscious I that is you, is it more likely to literally be the matter, the atoms, or to be like that specific circle and its proportions to that specific wheel? Can it be that we are a "logical" entity like a circle, only far more complex and self-conscious is one of our intrinsic attributes, and therefore even if a material expression of us (this body) is destroyed, the "logical form", aka, the spirit, still remains?

Usually they concede that it is at least a reasonable possibility they never thought of. From that point on though, they have already instilled the possibility in their imagination of a universe that can be caused by invisble intelligence, instead of the merely sensorial universe they imagined before.

If a person is blind to the circle that pre-exists and survives all wheels, how will they be able to see their own spirit or God?

Most of the time it is less about soft or hard hearts but a weakness of imagination. We live in a culture that forces us to remain slaved to sensorial perceptions and people deal with the real non-material objects of daily life in a merely pragmatical way, not thinking about the fact that such abstractions are not just the name of perceptions but subjacent realities.
Yes, you are right, People are much more materialistic nowadays which prevents them from believing.
I believe in ONE God the Father YHWH and I also believe in His Son Lord Yeshua,the Ha Mashiach.
https://yrm.org/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Eusebian/
http://www.arianismtoday.com/

Offline andrewlya

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Re: 'Can't see, can't believe'
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2015, 10:03:07 AM »
I have a sense that some of the Fathers of the Church would say that God has instilled in all of us a desire/longing for Him and an awareness of His Will (in the form of our conscience), but that often through our lives we ignore that aspect of ourselves and bury it. At that point we no longer see an innate orientation towards God within ourselves. So it's not that God has not made Himself known to us individually, it's just that we are blind to it.

TheTrisagion expresses the irony of your friend's position very succinctly - most people believe in atoms, electrons, the stratosphere, all things that we personally haven't seen, on the testimony of others who we trust (to whom the mysteries of science/our world/the universe have been manifest). Similarly, we believe in God based on the testimony of the martyrs, the apostles, the Scriptures. I think for most atheists it's not a question of "not believing without seeing" but rather, not trusting the sources with which they are presented.

Ultimately, God does not "need" us to believe in Him, it is we who benefit from that belief. If we don't love God and want to be with him (and cultivate that desire here in this life), then will we even want to be in heaven where we will be worshipping Him for all eternity? God doesn't force anyone to believe in Him here on earth, and He will not force us to love Him for eternity.

Additionally, I would like to add, it's really not a question of "blaming" or "faulting" people who don't know God, or who aren't Christian - judgement belongs with God, and we are hardly capable of understanding His mercy.
What I find hard to understand why is it required of people to believe rather than to know God, if everyone knew that God exists people would either be the followers of God, those who are obedient and God-fearing people, and some will not be, but at least there won't be atheists denying God's existence. The judgement would be based on whether one had a faith in God but rather whether one followed God's commandments.

Im just wondering, I am not saying I am right in any way, or my way of thinking is more logical because God's way is the best way.
I believe in ONE God the Father YHWH and I also believe in His Son Lord Yeshua,the Ha Mashiach.
https://yrm.org/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/Eusebian/
http://www.arianismtoday.com/