Author Topic: Antiochians want to maintain status quo  (Read 4900 times)

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Offline liftsifter

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2015, 02:52:51 PM »
I think the primary reason for the Antiochian's stance is not ethnophyletism or some sense of remaining ethnic. Rather, it's a practical thing, motivated by a need and desire to serve the faithful as best as possible.

Out of all the jurisdictions here, the Antiochians are arguably receiving the most immigrants from their original ethnic center. These people naturally gravitate towards Antiochian churches, and the Antiochian church is the most focused on providing support for those fleeing the Middle East.

I spent a while in the OCA, and while I did see many immigrants from places in Eastern Europe, they were mainly older people. The Antiochians aren't just receiving older immigrants, but a large number of young people, young professionals are coming over here from places like Syria, Lebanon, Jordan & Palestine.

While the church isn't an ethnic club, I will tell you that the Antiochian Church is probably the best location for these young people because many of them are going to deal with issues that older immigrants don't, and it's probably easier for the Archdiocese to deal with them than for another jurisdiction.

In fact, I know of a couple Antiochian Bishops (and even our own Priest) who, in the past, really wanted the Divine Services to only be in English, but in the last couple years they have relaxed their position on that due to the sheer number of people fleeing the Middle East and coming here.

Also, while I saw plenty of prayers being offered in the OCA for Syria, I think that the fear by the Antiochians, is that in unifying, direct aid to Syria (desperately needed!) by each individual parish, each diocese and the entire archdiocese would cease. Arguably, it'd be much harder to get a unified church (made up of lots of Greeks, Slavs etc...) to send a lot of financial aid to the Antiochian Churches in Syria, which really need a lot of help, and more help than just occasional donations to IOCC can provide.

I'm sure there is also a fear of being subjected to the Ecumenical Patriarch as well, which many Antiochians definitely do not want, since our Patriarchate only recently has gotten out from under the thumb and influence/control of the Phanar.

I know that Patriarch John remains committed to promoting a unified church in America, but at present, it's not possible with the situations that exist among the mother churches. It's just not the right time.
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2015, 03:38:19 PM »
I think the primary reason for the Antiochian's stance is not ethnophyletism or some sense of remaining ethnic. Rather, it's a practical thing, motivated by a need and desire to serve the faithful as best as possible.

Out of all the jurisdictions here, the Antiochians are arguably receiving the most immigrants from their original ethnic center. These people naturally gravitate towards Antiochian churches, and the Antiochian church is the most focused on providing support for those fleeing the Middle East.

I spent a while in the OCA, and while I did see many immigrants from places in Eastern Europe, they were mainly older people. The Antiochians aren't just receiving older immigrants, but a large number of young people, young professionals are coming over here from places like Syria, Lebanon, Jordan & Palestine.

While the church isn't an ethnic club, I will tell you that the Antiochian Church is probably the best location for these young people because many of them are going to deal with issues that older immigrants don't, and it's probably easier for the Archdiocese to deal with them than for another jurisdiction.

In fact, I know of a couple Antiochian Bishops (and even our own Priest) who, in the past, really wanted the Divine Services to only be in English, but in the last couple years they have relaxed their position on that due to the sheer number of people fleeing the Middle East and coming here.

Also, while I saw plenty of prayers being offered in the OCA for Syria, I think that the fear by the Antiochians, is that in unifying, direct aid to Syria (desperately needed!) by each individual parish, each diocese and the entire archdiocese would cease. Arguably, it'd be much harder to get a unified church (made up of lots of Greeks, Slavs etc...) to send a lot of financial aid to the Antiochian Churches in Syria, which really need a lot of help, and more help than just occasional donations to IOCC can provide.

I'm sure there is also a fear of being subjected to the Ecumenical Patriarch as well, which many Antiochians definitely do not want, since our Patriarchate only recently has gotten out from under the thumb and influence/control of the Phanar.

I know that Patriarch John remains committed to promoting a unified church in America, but at present, it's not possible with the situations that exist among the mother churches. It's just not the right time.

then when is the right time? why can't they meet the needs of the immigrants while striving for a american orthodox church?

Offline liftsifter

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2015, 02:47:45 AM »
^ The issue here is not building an American church. It's fending off the desires of Pat. Bartholomew to occupy all the "diaspora" land.
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Offline Maria

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2015, 04:07:27 AM »
^ The issue here is not building an American church. It's fending off the desires of Pat. Bartholomew to occupy all the "diaspora" land.

Well said.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
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Offline homedad76

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2015, 08:09:11 AM »
^ The issue here is not building an American church. It's fending off the desires of Pat. Bartholomew to occupy all the "diaspora" land.

Wasn't the entire point of the diaspora settling the issue to avoid the EP pushing his claim?  HAH requested the churches to come to a solution on their own under the suggestion that if they didn't then he would step in and take over so I fail to see how undermining the process makes it less likely?  I would be interested for anyone to find evidence that anybody on the committee had seriously proposed just handing the whole thing over to the Phanar.  I just keep hearing this argument and while I've heard individuals argue in favor of the EP I've never heard him actually push it.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2015, 09:25:24 AM »
As an Antiochian, and one who loves Antioch, I think that they realize that if the USA is put into one jurisdiction, it has alot to lose, because it wouldn't be under them. Then again, I think all the other jurisdictions are in the same boat (except for Russia and Greece who IMHO both think the US belongs to them already).

As far as the EP goes, it wont ever get the USA under its jurisdiction. It wont happen. So debating it is a waste of breath. IMHO I think that one of two options will occur:

1. All jurisdictions agree to give up all, or almost all, of its land and holdings here in the US for a new jurisdiction to be created (with some compensation plan to be put in place)
2. Things will remain as they are.

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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #51 on: September 22, 2015, 10:12:07 AM »
As an Antiochian, and one who loves Antioch, I think that they realize that if the USA is put into one jurisdiction, it has alot to lose, because it wouldn't be under them. Then again, I think all the other jurisdictions are in the same boat (except for Russia and Greece who IMHO both think the US belongs to them already).

As far as the EP goes, it wont ever get the USA under its jurisdiction. It wont happen. So debating it is a waste of breath. IMHO I think that one of two options will occur:

1. All jurisdictions agree to give up all, or almost all, of its land and holdings here in the US for a new jurisdiction to be created (with some compensation plan to be put in place)
2. Things will remain as they are.

PP

It's even more basic All politics is local is an old maxim. In my career in government we always heard great support from the grassroots  for "running local government like a business".and consolidating units of government, including school districts, into a  more rational model to effectively deliver services. Lots of bi partisan and popular support UNTIL the details leak out . Things like football programs, where services will be available, cost (some pay more, others less) and so on AND emotional attachments go ones town or school .

Parish support for the " concept " of unity may be high, but  not so much for the details. Bishops may be holy men, but most have good political instincts. It's far less about fear of foreign patriarchates and far more about control of the local ecclesia.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 10:14:35 AM by podkarpatska »

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #52 on: September 22, 2015, 10:46:19 AM »
As an Antiochian, and one who loves Antioch, I think that they realize that if the USA is put into one jurisdiction, it has alot to lose, because it wouldn't be under them. Then again, I think all the other jurisdictions are in the same boat (except for Russia and Greece who IMHO both think the US belongs to them already).

As far as the EP goes, it wont ever get the USA under its jurisdiction. It wont happen. So debating it is a waste of breath. IMHO I think that one of two options will occur:

1. All jurisdictions agree to give up all, or almost all, of its land and holdings here in the US for a new jurisdiction to be created (with some compensation plan to be put in place)
2. Things will remain as they are.

PP

It's even more basic All politics is local is an old maxim. In my career in government we always heard great support from the grassroots  for "running local government like a business".and consolidating units of government, including school districts, into a  more rational model to effectively deliver services. Lots of bi partisan and popular support UNTIL the details leak out . Things like football programs, where services will be available, cost (some pay more, others less) and so on AND emotional attachments go ones town or school .

Parish support for the " concept " of unity may be high, but  not so much for the details. Bishops may be holy men, but most have good political instincts. It's far less about fear of foreign patriarchates and far more about control of the local ecclesia.

I think it is more like a both/and proposition.

Most overseas churches don't want to lose their emigrants during times of low fertility and mass migration.

AND...

Most local communities don't want to lose the bishop they know for the bishop they don't.

In a nutshell, people don't like change.  Nobody.

I don't think trading an Antiochian administration for a Greek one brings any perceived benefits at a local level, though the perceived drawbacks are plentiful and oft-repeated.  Antioch certainly would not 'sell' its holdings during this time, but I don't see Constantinople offering the other churches anything resembling a 'fair trade.'

So, risks outweigh benefits, both here and abroad.

BTW, an autocephalous church has never been part of the plan.
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Offline Orest

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #53 on: September 22, 2015, 12:37:53 PM »
^ The issue here is not building an American church. It's fending off the desires of Pat. Bartholomew to occupy all the "diaspora" land.
Yeah but GOARCH I have read  has more members than any other jurisdiction.  Who really wants an American Church?  Only the OCA and some people now with Antioch.  The whole Episcopal Assembly was doomed to failure.  The only good it will ever do is to at least speak as  one Orthodox voice on certain issues. 
By the way who or which church is paying for the administration and all the hotel rooms for meetings?

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #54 on: September 22, 2015, 01:03:11 PM »
Quote
Yeah but GOARCH I have read  has more members than any other jurisdiction.
Big deal.

Quote
Who really wants an American Church?
I do. So do alot of others.
Quote
The whole Episcopal Assembly was doomed to failure
My own bishop has said as much.
Quote
By the way who or which church is paying for the administration and all the hotel rooms for meetings?
Everybody pays.

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Offline liftsifter

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #55 on: September 22, 2015, 01:52:36 PM »
My understanding is that at the moment, GOA, Antiochians and OCA are paying for everything, although the Antiochians have insisted it be hosted for free at Antiochian Village, however, that would give Metropolitan Joseph presvia during Divine Services
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #56 on: September 22, 2015, 01:56:18 PM »
Quote
My understanding is that at the moment, GOA, Antiochians and OCA are paying for everything, although the Antiochians have insisted it be hosted for free at Antiochian Village
A great idea.

Quote
that would give Metropolitan Joseph presvia during Divine Services
I fail to see a problem.

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #57 on: September 22, 2015, 02:35:02 PM »
^ The issue here is not building an American church. It's fending off the desires of Pat. Bartholomew to occupy all the "diaspora" land.
Yeah but GOARCH I have read  has more members than any other jurisdiction.  Who really wants an American Church?  Only the OCA and some people now with Antioch.  The whole Episcopal Assembly was doomed to failure.  The only good it will ever do is to at least speak as  one Orthodox voice on certain issues. 
By the way who or which church is paying for the administration and all the hotel rooms for meetings?
The majority of American Orthodox Christians...
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Offline TheMathematician

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2015, 03:03:52 PM »
I would love an American Orthodox Church.

It honestly has become more of a need than a nice thing to have at this point.

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2015, 03:05:19 PM »
I would like one too, but I'm a little scared as to what it would look like.
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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2015, 03:07:28 PM »
I would like one too, but I'm a little scared as to what it would look like.
Honestly a drive thru Eucharist would be great. It stops being unnecessarily distracted by folks that arrive only for it and leave before the priest even gets to his homily.
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2015, 03:12:11 PM »
I would like one too, but I'm a little scared as to what it would look like.
Honestly a drive thru Eucharist would be great. It stops being unnecessarily distracted by folks that arrive only for it and leave before the priest even gets to his homily.


God bless!

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2015, 03:17:37 PM »
I would like one too, but I'm a little scared as to what it would look like.
Honestly a drive thru Eucharist would be great. It stops being unnecessarily distracted by folks that arrive only for it and leave before the priest even gets to his homily.


that eyebrow raising hmm I see people fear on what a orthodox church could look like if gone wrong. Still why not get involved in the outcome of how a american orthodox church of north america would many of you can show what orthodox is to americans

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2015, 03:50:45 PM »
I would like one too, but I'm a little scared as to what it would look like.

I would imagine that we would continue to have slight liturgical variances. Let's face it, the Liturgical musical traditions of the various jurisdictions are real. But, I like them all perhaps because I grew up in the Bulgarian Church that used both Byzantine chanting and mainly Russian/Ukrainian four-part choral compositions. Sure, I have personal prejudices: I cannot stand either choral concert pieces (the congregation cannot sing along), or dueling (screeching) Byzantine chanters. Fortunately, those are anomalies that happen when the bishop comes, and I can live with that torture once or twice a year. :)

« Last Edit: September 22, 2015, 03:51:32 PM by Carl Kraeff (Second Chance) »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2015, 03:51:48 PM »
I would like one too, but I'm a little scared as to what it would look like.

+1
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Offline homedad76

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2015, 06:59:28 PM »
I would like one too, but I'm a little scared as to what it would look like.

In the short term pretty much exactly what it looks like now.  In the long term the makeup of some churches may change but that will depend much more on the population surrounding them and likely would have changed (or not) irregardless of jurisdictional changes.   New churches would likely see the biggest difference as a new sense of mission would deem it necessary to plant new churches outside of immigrant heavy areas.  These churches would be mostly converts.  A single jurisdiction would necessitate some changes in vestments and liturgy but I don't think we'd have to go crazy with it. As far as I've seen it isn't like we can't find something that everybody can't at least tolerate.  But I think people tend to more fear changes in the makeup of the parish and what happens outside of the liturgy.  And that is going to change (or not change) on the parish level no matter what happens.

I know I've made some poor word choices in the past but I certainly do not support forcing priests out or forcing major changes on the parish level.  And certainly not trying to wedge in so-called "American" customs for coffee hour and cook outs by decree.  The ethnic identity of many parishes is too important to them and I have no issue with them sharing them and continuing them so long as they are not used to alienate others and are not confusing ethnich tradition with Orthodox tradition.
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Offline homedad76

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2015, 07:03:02 PM »
I am curious if all the foreign patriarchs gave up their holdings to a new jurisdiction would most Bishops have to leave?  I just wonder if a way couldn't be found to let the current Bishops, if they wanted, move over to the new jurisdiction?  Could there even be immigration issues for some of them? I actually have no clue about how the immigration status works for Bishops serving here from other countries?
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Offline liftsifter

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2015, 07:36:42 PM »
...I think many folks around here are a bit confused about the nature of "Orthodox Unity." We all know that we share the same body and blood of Christ, that's not the question here. The plan as it stood from the Assembly of Bishops was to dissolve all the Archdiocese of America into the Ecumenical Patriarchate's current presence in the USA. Last year, when the proposal was presented, a bishop asked, "what happens to the rest of us?" and a bishop of the EP responded, "Well, you're uncanonical, so you'll be retired."

This was the very real prospect of the Assembly, thank God for Antioch putting their foot down, I think Moscow will be more vocal now.
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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #68 on: September 22, 2015, 08:22:55 PM »
Sometimes ideas that appear dead may spring back to life:

The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline TheMathematician

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2015, 09:31:42 PM »
I want to see bishops be Eparchs of geographical territories, with the current  Bishops being moved as necessary so that all will have geographic sense and about the same number of parishioners in the diocese/eparchy

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2015, 09:50:41 PM »
...I think many folks around here are a bit confused about the nature of "Orthodox Unity." We all know that we share the same body and blood of Christ, that's not the question here. The plan as it stood from the Assembly of Bishops was to dissolve all the Archdiocese of America into the Ecumenical Patriarchate's current presence in the USA. Last year, when the proposal was presented, a bishop asked, "what happens to the rest of us?" and a bishop of the EP responded, "Well, you're uncanonical, so you'll be retired."

This was the very real prospect of the Assembly, thank God for Antioch putting their foot down, I think Moscow will be more vocal now.

Who were the bishops?
Quote
The erection of one’s rod counts as a form of glory (Theophylaktos of Ohrid, A Defense of Eunuchs, p. 329).

The whole forum is Mor. We're emanations of his godlike mind.

Offline liftsifter

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2015, 09:57:43 PM »
...I think many folks around here are a bit confused about the nature of "Orthodox Unity." We all know that we share the same body and blood of Christ, that's not the question here. The plan as it stood from the Assembly of Bishops was to dissolve all the Archdiocese of America into the Ecumenical Patriarchate's current presence in the USA. Last year, when the proposal was presented, a bishop asked, "what happens to the rest of us?" and a bishop of the EP responded, "Well, you're uncanonical, so you'll be retired."

This was the very real prospect of the Assembly, thank God for Antioch putting their foot down, I think Moscow will be more vocal now.

Who were the bishops?
All of the non-EP bishops.
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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #72 on: September 22, 2015, 10:11:57 PM »
...I think many folks around here are a bit confused about the nature of "Orthodox Unity." We all know that we share the same body and blood of Christ, that's not the question here. The plan as it stood from the Assembly of Bishops was to dissolve all the Archdiocese of America into the Ecumenical Patriarchate's current presence in the USA. Last year, when the proposal was presented, a bishop asked, "what happens to the rest of us?" and a bishop of the EP responded, "Well, you're uncanonical, so you'll be retired."

This was the very real prospect of the Assembly, thank God for Antioch putting their foot down, I think Moscow will be more vocal now.

Yeah, I think the policy ought to be "no unity without autocephaly". Meaning the US as a whole isn't going to come under the heel of any one foreign patriarch, that's the wrong kind of unity. Only when the US (or North America as a whole) is ecclesially independent could it possibly become ecclesially united.

The problem, though, is where such a unified North American church would be headquartered. Different cities, etc., would all want to be "first among equals".

So perhaps a decentralized, quasi-republican structure might be better, sort of like how the American government works. Out of all the bishops in the North American church, there'd be a standing council of 20 or so, elected (but by a consensus-based mechanism rather than simple majority vote), and they would act as the "Congress" of sorts. There could be councils of priests and laymen/women, chosen similarly, who would work alongside them (a "tricameral" structure). This group would then elect a bishop to serve as the "president" and he'd be the de facto Patriarch of North America, at least in terms of representing the American Orthodox Church to the media and in the world.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #73 on: September 22, 2015, 10:14:01 PM »
...I think many folks around here are a bit confused about the nature of "Orthodox Unity." We all know that we share the same body and blood of Christ, that's not the question here. The plan as it stood from the Assembly of Bishops was to dissolve all the Archdiocese of America into the Ecumenical Patriarchate's current presence in the USA. Last year, when the proposal was presented, a bishop asked, "what happens to the rest of us?" and a bishop of the EP responded, "Well, you're uncanonical, so you'll be retired."

This was the very real prospect of the Assembly, thank God for Antioch putting their foot down, I think Moscow will be more vocal now.

Who were the bishops?
All of the non-EP bishops.

I meant the two involved in the exchange I bolded above. 
Quote
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #74 on: September 22, 2015, 10:59:04 PM »
...I think many folks around here are a bit confused about the nature of "Orthodox Unity." We all know that we share the same body and blood of Christ, that's not the question here. The plan as it stood from the Assembly of Bishops was to dissolve all the Archdiocese of America into the Ecumenical Patriarchate's current presence in the USA. Last year, when the proposal was presented, a bishop asked, "what happens to the rest of us?" and a bishop of the EP responded, "Well, you're uncanonical, so you'll be retired."

This was the very real prospect of the Assembly, thank God for Antioch putting their foot down, I think Moscow will be more vocal now.

Yeah, I think the policy ought to be "no unity without autocephaly". Meaning the US as a whole isn't going to come under the heel of any one foreign patriarch, that's the wrong kind of unity. Only when the US (or North America as a whole) is ecclesially independent could it possibly become ecclesially united.

The problem, though, is where such a unified North American church would be headquartered. Different cities, etc., would all want to be "first among equals".

So perhaps a decentralized, quasi-republican structure might be better, sort of like how the American government works. Out of all the bishops in the North American church, there'd be a standing council of 20 or so, elected (but by a consensus-based mechanism rather than simple majority vote), and they would act as the "Congress" of sorts. There could be councils of priests and laymen/women, chosen similarly, who would work alongside them (a "tricameral" structure). This group would then elect a bishop to serve as the "president" and he'd be the de facto Patriarch of North America, at least in terms of representing the American Orthodox Church to the media and in the world.

I agree autoceplachy would solve this problem we shouldn't be under one foreign patriarchate. The mess with overlaping juridistictions seems like a problem that keeps coming up.

Offline Jeffrey

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #75 on: September 22, 2015, 11:08:54 PM »

Offline FatherGiryus

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #76 on: September 22, 2015, 11:44:05 PM »
Yes, I am totally sure.  Completely.  Utterly.  If I was any more sure, I'd need to be two people.


BTW, an autocephalous church has never been part of the plan.[/size][/font]

Are you sure?

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Offline Bob2

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #77 on: September 23, 2015, 12:31:01 AM »
^ The issue here is not building an American church. It's fending off the desires of Pat. Bartholomew to occupy all the "diaspora" land.
Yeah but GOARCH I have read  has more members than any other jurisdiction.  Who really wants an American Church?  Only the OCA and some people now with Antioch.  The whole Episcopal Assembly was doomed to failure.  The only good it will ever do is to at least speak as  one Orthodox voice on certain issues. 
By the way who or which church is paying for the administration and all the hotel rooms for meetings?
The majority of American Orthodox Christians...

Really? Are you sure?

Offline liftsifter

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #78 on: September 23, 2015, 03:33:42 AM »
Let's answer this question:

If the Ecumenical Patriarchate is so concerned with the uncanonical situation in America, why has there been no action or even a single whisper regarding the uncanonical interference of the Patriarchate of Jerusalem in the territory of the Patriarchate of Antioch?

"And the King will say to them, ‘Verily I say to you, inasmuch as you have done it to the least of these my bretheren, you have done it to Me.’" Matthew 25

Offline homedad76

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #79 on: September 23, 2015, 08:13:09 AM »
...I think many folks around here are a bit confused about the nature of "Orthodox Unity." We all know that we share the same body and blood of Christ, that's not the question here. The plan as it stood from the Assembly of Bishops was to dissolve all the Archdiocese of America into the Ecumenical Patriarchate's current presence in the USA. Last year, when the proposal was presented, a bishop asked, "what happens to the rest of us?" and a bishop of the EP responded, "Well, you're uncanonical, so you'll be retired."

This was the very real prospect of the Assembly, thank God for Antioch putting their foot down, I think Moscow will be more vocal now.

That was one proposal and it was rejected.  Have you actually read or looked in to the proposals?  The one actually being discussed was a move toward eventual autocephaly with the new church being overlooked by all the Patriarchs in some unique way until restructuring was complete.  Yes a goarch Bishop made a statement at a Q&A said autocephaly was never part of the discussion but many members of the committee were actually shocked by what he said.  And yes I am sure there were Bishops on the committee who have pushed for unity under the EP but they are only one voice.  And I also have not found any official statement by HAH pushing to put the diaspora under his direct authority.  Even if he believes he could do it it seems to me that he has been pushing for those in the diaspora to come up with a different way.  There are plenty of things the EP has done that deserve scrutiny but these conspiracy theories about taking over the diaspora seem to be just that.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 08:19:18 AM by homedad76 »
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #80 on: September 23, 2015, 09:58:32 AM »
is the EP really as bad as many make him out to be on here? well if people can't even agree what unity really means then the 2016 great and holy council is dead in the water before it even starts.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #81 on: September 23, 2015, 10:08:58 AM »
^ The issue here is not building an American church. It's fending off the desires of Pat. Bartholomew to occupy all the "diaspora" land.
Yeah but GOARCH I have read  has more members than any other jurisdiction.  Who really wants an American Church?  Only the OCA and some people now with Antioch.  The whole Episcopal Assembly was doomed to failure.  The only good it will ever do is to at least speak as  one Orthodox voice on certain issues. 
By the way who or which church is paying for the administration and all the hotel rooms for meetings?
The majority of American Orthodox Christians...

Really? Are you sure?
Yup.
God bless!

Offline Agabus

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #82 on: September 23, 2015, 10:13:47 AM »
The relationship between Antioch and the OCA is strong and I'm sure Moscow wouldn't mind giving it's American parishes to Antioch in exchange for a bit of the revenue and to poke the EP a bit more. Then it will be clear who really believes in unity in America.
Indeed.

Nothing says "unity" like getting a good jab in.
Blessed Nazarius practiced the ascetic life. His clothes were tattered. He wore his shoes without removing them for six years.

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Offline converted viking

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #83 on: September 23, 2015, 10:16:25 AM »
Is it just me being cranky?  It would seem from what I am reading in the posts here that the EC is trying for a power grab?   Is he trying to be an Orthodox pope?   Won't fly with me as one of the reasons I left the RCC is the issue of papal authority and power.   Sorry, it must be time for that second cup of coffee.

Viking

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #84 on: September 23, 2015, 10:16:54 AM »
I have an idea: since the Ecumenical Patriarchate is eager for Orthodox unity in America, why not unify under Antioch? Antioch has said they will not unify unless Antioch is the receiving party of the additional jurisdictions for obvious reasons. The relationship between Antioch and the OCA is strong and I'm sure Moscow wouldn't mind giving it's American parishes to Antioch in exchange for a bit of the revenue and to poke the EP a bit more. Then it will be clear who really believes in unity in America.

I'm not up on all the church politics, but hasn't Moscow already pronounced its parishes autocephalous?
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Offline Bob2

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #85 on: September 23, 2015, 10:24:06 AM »
^ The issue here is not building an American church. It's fending off the desires of Pat. Bartholomew to occupy all the "diaspora" land.
Yeah but GOARCH I have read  has more members than any other jurisdiction.  Who really wants an American Church?  Only the OCA and some people now with Antioch.  The whole Episcopal Assembly was doomed to failure.  The only good it will ever do is to at least speak as  one Orthodox voice on certain issues. 
By the way who or which church is paying for the administration and all the hotel rooms for meetings?
The majority of American Orthodox Christians...

Really? Are you sure?
Yup.

ok, do you have any evidence?

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #86 on: September 23, 2015, 10:24:45 AM »
^ The issue here is not building an American church. It's fending off the desires of Pat. Bartholomew to occupy all the "diaspora" land.
Yeah but GOARCH I have read  has more members than any other jurisdiction.  Who really wants an American Church?  Only the OCA and some people now with Antioch.  The whole Episcopal Assembly was doomed to failure.  The only good it will ever do is to at least speak as  one Orthodox voice on certain issues. 
By the way who or which church is paying for the administration and all the hotel rooms for meetings?
The majority of American Orthodox Christians...

Really? Are you sure?
Yup.

ok, do you have any evidence?
Nope.
God bless!

Offline Bob2

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #87 on: September 23, 2015, 10:33:57 AM »

 Antioch has said they will not unify unless Antioch is the receiving party of the additional jurisdictions for obvious reasons. The relationship between Antioch and the OCA is strong and I'm sure Moscow wouldn't mind giving it's American parishes to Antioch in exchange for a bit of the revenue and to poke the EP a bit more. Then it will be clear who really believes in unity in America.

Perhaps you are closer to Patriarch Kirill than I am, but what makes you sure?

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #88 on: September 23, 2015, 10:40:03 AM »

 Antioch has said they will not unify unless Antioch is the receiving party of the additional jurisdictions for obvious reasons. The relationship between Antioch and the OCA is strong and I'm sure Moscow wouldn't mind giving it's American parishes to Antioch in exchange for a bit of the revenue and to poke the EP a bit more. Then it will be clear who really believes in unity in America.

Perhaps you are closer to Patriarch Kirill than I am, but what makes you sure?
It makes sense. The EP has been gathering power for quite some time, at the expense of Antioch and Russia. Just look at the Jerusalem fiasco.

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Offline Bob2

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Re: Antiochians want to maintain status quo
« Reply #89 on: September 23, 2015, 10:46:17 AM »

 Antioch has said they will not unify unless Antioch is the receiving party of the additional jurisdictions for obvious reasons. The relationship between Antioch and the OCA is strong and I'm sure Moscow wouldn't mind giving it's American parishes to Antioch in exchange for a bit of the revenue and to poke the EP a bit more. Then it will be clear who really believes in unity in America.

Perhaps you are closer to Patriarch Kirill than I am, but what makes you sure?
It makes sense. The EP has been gathering power for quite some time, at the expense of Antioch and Russia. Just look at the Jerusalem fiasco.

PP

Perhaps it makes sense to you, it sounds ridiculous to me.