Author Topic: Sacred Heart of Jesus  (Read 6390 times)

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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2015, 06:16:44 PM »
Seems odd to be defending the practices of the Western rite to another Orthodox believer.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 06:18:25 PM by elijahmaria »

Offline LBK

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2015, 06:28:12 PM »

However, the fact remains that the sacred heart devotion is foreign to Orthodoxy, having arisen from outside of its tradition, and long past the Great Schism. Just because a few present-day WR use it does not make it a "functional" part of the devotional life of the Church.

Seems to me that if it is practiced in Orthodoxy it is thereby a functional part of the devotional life of the Church.  What would you call it?

An aberration adhered to by a minuscule fraction.
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2015, 06:35:22 PM »

Seems to me that if it is practiced in Orthodoxy it is thereby a functional part of the devotional life of the Church.  What would you call it?

An aberration adhered to by a minuscule fraction.

Apparently there are a good number of clergy and bishops and Metropolitans and a Patriarch or two who don't see it that way.  I think I will adhere to the thinking of those who have been called to lead the Church.

Offline Bob2

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2015, 06:54:30 PM »

However, the fact remains that the sacred heart devotion is foreign to Orthodoxy, having arisen from outside of its tradition, and long past the Great Schism. Just because a few present-day WR use it does not make it a "functional" part of the devotional life of the Church.

Seems to me that if it is practiced in Orthodoxy it is thereby a functional part of the devotional life of the Church.  What would you call it?
By this logic any liturgical anomaly, that has ever occurred in any Orthodox church is now a functional part of the devotional life of the Church. 

Offline LBK

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2015, 06:55:31 PM »

However, the fact remains that the sacred heart devotion is foreign to Orthodoxy, having arisen from outside of its tradition, and long past the Great Schism. Just because a few present-day WR use it does not make it a "functional" part of the devotional life of the Church.

Seems to me that if it is practiced in Orthodoxy it is thereby a functional part of the devotional life of the Church.  What would you call it?
By this logic any liturgical anomaly, that has ever occurred in any Orthodox church is now a functional part of the devotional life of the Church.

Indeed. Thank you for the clarity.  :)
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2015, 07:31:51 PM »
Elijiahmaria,

Another problem is that, as you know, some of the RC mystics went a little too far in their ecstatic descriptions of things (e.g. Catherine of Sienna). Many of the mystics lived during a time when people began to change the way they understood themselves and spirituality in general.

To put it short, these changes made people value inner visions, inner experiences, and made them understand terms like "inner life" differently. I believe that some of these changes were unhelpful and leading away from truth, and why I'm skeptical of prayer practices where you're supposed to conjure mental images, etc.

However, people are far too critical of these RC mystics. Teresa of Avila, for example, has great stuff. And because we're modern people, we're going to tend to read all of the Fathers in the terms of very different understandings of ourselves and our inner lives than the Fathers had. So we have to fight that battle against error either way, ignoring RC mystics isn't going to help.

Same thing with the Sacred Heart, I think. It falls under the same overreaching condemnations as the RC mystics.

Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2015, 07:49:23 PM »
There's nothing to say in the face of rejection.  I watch Orthodox believers talk and talk and talk against similar kinds of arguments leveled against them by protestants, and sometimes Catholics.  You are not going to change the minds of the already convicted.  Which is why I said I would follow those chosen to lead the Church....M.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2015, 09:51:36 PM »
The devotion is to what the body part represents.  It represents the love of Jesus for us.

It is really that simple.


Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2015, 10:17:14 PM »









Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2015, 10:20:21 PM »
Thank you for reminding me how kitchy religious western art is. I had forgotten.  :P
God bless!

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2015, 10:25:46 PM »
Nobody said you had to like the artwork.  Because of the art, I had to wait till I was an adult and was willing to look at the teaching and not the images before I could appreciate what the "heart" symbolized and what the teaching was really all about.  Make all the fun you like it is now celebrated in western Orthodoxy so you too will need to look beyond the pictures that you like to use to make fun of the devotion.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2015, 10:27:46 PM »
Nobody said you had to like the artwork.  Because of the art, I had to wait till I was an adult and was willing to look at the teaching and not the images before I could appreciate what the "heart" symbolized and what the teaching was really all about.  Make all the fun you like it is now celebrated in western Orthodoxy so you too will need to look beyond the pictures that you like to use to make fun of the devotion.
I don't know if or to what extent it is used in WR, but it isn't used in my parish and I am most thankful for that.
God bless!

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2015, 10:47:25 PM »
Nobody said you had to like the artwork.  Because of the art, I had to wait till I was an adult and was willing to look at the teaching and not the images before I could appreciate what the "heart" symbolized and what the teaching was really all about.  Make all the fun you like it is now celebrated in western Orthodoxy so you too will need to look beyond the pictures that you like to use to make fun of the devotion.
I don't know if or to what extent it is used in WR, but it isn't used in my parish and I am most thankful for that.

I've had Orthodox priests tell me that they celebrate the Feast of the Sacred Heart.  And others tell me that they use images of the sacred heart and liken those images to the icon of the Theotokos with the swords stuck in her chest.  I just look past the hearts-on-fire artwork.  I don't like it but I do not deride the actual devotion and what it means.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 10:49:32 PM by elijahmaria »

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2015, 10:50:18 PM »
Nobody said you had to like the artwork.  Because of the art, I had to wait till I was an adult and was willing to look at the teaching and not the images before I could appreciate what the "heart" symbolized and what the teaching was really all about.  Make all the fun you like it is now celebrated in western Orthodoxy so you too will need to look beyond the pictures that you like to use to make fun of the devotion.

I think you assume too much. 

You can claim that the heart symbolises something else, but you can't claim that the devotion has nothing to do with the body part at all, as you did.  There is clearly a version of this devotion which is focused on the heart as a body part, even separated from the body of the person. 

And it's not just the heart of Jesus, though that is the most popular.  There are also the hearts of Mary, of Joseph, and (new to me) John (the Evangelist?).  These can't all be devotions to relics.  Are they also devotions to the heart as symbol of the love of a person?  What is special about the love of these saints in particular?  What other saints' hearts can be the focus of devotion? 

The Western Orthodox may have a devotion to the heart of Christ, but until proven otherwise, I'm willing to take for granted that they have adapted it to be more suitable in an Orthodox context.  They were willing to make such changes, though IMO unnecessary, to the Eucharistic Canon, so I'm not sure why a private devotion should be untouchable. 

And I'm still interested in learning how this devotion has "Eastern origins". 

Offline LBK

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2015, 10:56:42 PM »
Nobody said you had to like the artwork.  Because of the art, I had to wait till I was an adult and was willing to look at the teaching and not the images before I could appreciate what the "heart" symbolized and what the teaching was really all about.  Make all the fun you like it is now celebrated in western Orthodoxy so you too will need to look beyond the pictures that you like to use to make fun of the devotion.
I don't know if or to what extent it is used in WR, but it isn't used in my parish and I am most thankful for that.

I've had Orthodox priests tell me that they celebrate the Feast of the Sacred Heart.  And others tell me that they use images of the sacred heart and liken those images to the icon of the Theotokos with the swords stuck in her chest.  I just look past the hearts-on-fire artwork.  I don't like it but I do not deride the actual devotion and what it means.

Are these the same Orthodox priests who have told you Orthodoxy always taught the immaculate conception, but it was suppressed in the 16th century?

Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #60 on: October 06, 2015, 11:11:52 PM »
There's nothing to say in the face of rejection.  I watch Orthodox believers talk and talk and talk against similar kinds of arguments leveled against them by protestants, and sometimes Catholics.  You are not going to change the minds of the already convicted.  Which is why I said I would follow those chosen to lead the Church....M.
Sounds like a good idea
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #61 on: October 06, 2015, 11:12:44 PM »
There is clearly a version of this devotion which is focused on the heart as a body part, even separated from the body of the person. 
You could say the same about our veneration of the Cross if taken out of the tradition.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2015, 12:23:34 AM »
There is clearly a version of this devotion which is focused on the heart as a body part, even separated from the body of the person. 
You could say the same about our veneration of the Cross if taken out of the tradition.
But is there clearly such a version of the veneration of the Cross that has been taken out of the tradition?
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2015, 01:21:57 AM »
There is clearly a version of this devotion which is focused on the heart as a body part, even separated from the body of the person. 
You could say the same about our veneration of the Cross if taken out of the tradition.
But is there clearly such a version of the veneration of the Cross that has been taken out of the tradition?
Yeah
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #64 on: October 07, 2015, 08:38:59 AM »
NicholasMyra:  When the recalcitrant begin to make assertions that simply are not so, it is best to simply state the truth and ignore the rest.  The texts on how the Orthodox are to understand Catholic devotions was written in an Orthodox context and is nothing like the false inferences that are being drawn here.  That is sufficient.

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #65 on: October 07, 2015, 10:16:52 AM »
Quote
I've had Orthodox priests tell me that they celebrate the Feast of the Sacred Heart
Privately, maybe. Publicly? Better not let their Bishop find out.

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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #66 on: October 07, 2015, 11:03:45 AM »
Here is a very interesting blog posting on the Sacred Heart and the rise of it from a pedestrian devotion to a para-liturgical devotion.  The blog post itself is negative but then there's a surprising Orthodox response in the com box which is not at all negative and which actually indicates that some Orthodox do grasp its meaning.

http://philorthodox.blogspot.com/2009/06/on-latin-cultus-of-sacred-heart.html

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #67 on: October 07, 2015, 11:05:52 AM »
The Church of Antioch in America's western rite celebrates a Feast of the Sacred Heart.  That makes the devotion, liturgically, a part of Orthodoxy.   Simply because ROCOR cannot make up its mind has no bearing on the fact that it is recognized liturgically in Orthodoxy.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #68 on: October 07, 2015, 11:09:02 AM »
There is clearly a version of this devotion which is focused on the heart as a body part, even separated from the body of the person. 
You could say the same about our veneration of the Cross if taken out of the tradition.
But is there clearly such a version of the veneration of the Cross that has been taken out of the tradition?
Yeah
Can you tell us about it?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #69 on: October 07, 2015, 11:17:55 AM »
This is a brief history of the rise of the devotion over time and serves to refute some of the assertions commonly made about its appearance in the west.  It is not my work and I have long since lost track of the source but it is accurate and so I kept it though I cannot call it my own:

" It is in the eleventh and twelfth centuries that the first indications of devotion to the Sacred Heart are found. It was in the fervent atmosphere of the Benedictine or Cistercian monasteries, in the world of Anselmian or Bernardine thought, that the devotion arose, although it is impossible to say positively what were its first texts or who were its first devotees. From the 16th century the image of the Sacred Heart of Jesus was everywhere in evidence, largely due to the Franciscan devotion to the Five Wounds and to the habit formed by the Jesuits of placing the image on their title-page of their books and the walls of their churches. Nevertheless, the devotion remained an individual, or at least a private, devotion. Jean Eudes (1602-1680) made it public, gave it an Office, and established a feast for it. Père Eudes was the apostle of the Heart of Mary; but in his devotion to the Immaculate Heart there was a share for the Heart of Jesus. The most significant source for the devotion to the Sacred Heart in the form it is known today was Margaret Mary Alacoque (1647-1690), who claimed to have received visions of Jesus Christ. There is nothing to indicate that she had known the devotion prior to the revelations, or at least that she had paid any attention to it.’ "
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 11:23:34 AM by elijahmaria »

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #70 on: October 07, 2015, 01:30:54 PM »
There is clearly a version of this devotion which is focused on the heart as a body part, even separated from the body of the person. 
You could say the same about our veneration of the Cross if taken out of the tradition.
But is there clearly such a version of the veneration of the Cross that has been taken out of the tradition?
Yeah
Can you tell us about it?
it's Cross-related.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #71 on: October 07, 2015, 01:40:05 PM »
There is clearly a version of this devotion which is focused on the heart as a body part, even separated from the body of the person. 
You could say the same about our veneration of the Cross if taken out of the tradition.

If you are willing to flesh that out some more, I'd be interested to hear it.  I'm not sure I agree that the veneration of the Cross in Orthodoxy is similar to the veneration of Christ's heart in Roman Catholicism.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #72 on: October 07, 2015, 02:20:54 PM »
There is clearly a version of this devotion which is focused on the heart as a body part, even separated from the body of the person. 
You could say the same about our veneration of the Cross if taken out of the tradition.
But is there clearly such a version of the veneration of the Cross that has been taken out of the tradition?
Yeah
Can you tell us about it?
it's Cross-related.
Stop with the smartassery, Captain Obvious, or I shall get very cross. >:( ;)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 02:25:08 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #73 on: October 07, 2015, 02:32:17 PM »
There is clearly a version of this devotion which is focused on the heart as a body part, even separated from the body of the person. 
You could say the same about our veneration of the Cross if taken out of the tradition.
But is there clearly such a version of the veneration of the Cross that has been taken out of the tradition?
Yeah
Can you tell us about it?
it's Cross-related.
Stop with the smartassery, Captain Obvious, or I shall get very cross. >:( ;)
We'll cross that bridge when we get there.
God bless!

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #74 on: October 07, 2015, 03:39:53 PM »
For what it's worth, the word for heart in Latin, which is what this whole practice originated from, is mentes. This word also has the meaning of: soul, mind, feeling, character, and disposition. So perhaps that might help clear up any confusion. idk...
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #75 on: October 07, 2015, 03:51:52 PM »
For what it's worth, the word for heart in Latin, which is what this whole practice originated from, is mentes. This word also has the meaning of: soul, mind, feeling, character, and disposition. So perhaps that might help clear up any confusion. idk...

Litaniae Cordis Sanctae Iesu (Litany of the Sacred Heart of Jesus

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #76 on: October 07, 2015, 04:10:07 PM »
For what it's worth, the word for heart in Latin, which is what this whole practice originated from, is mentes. This word also has the meaning of: soul, mind, feeling, character, and disposition. So perhaps that might help clear up any confusion. idk...

Litaniae Cordis Sanctae Iesu (Litany of the Sacred Heart of Jesus

New Latin is a butchering, that doesn't count...!

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #77 on: October 07, 2015, 04:55:53 PM »
For what it's worth, the word for heart in Latin, which is what this whole practice originated from, is mentes. This word also has the meaning of: soul, mind, feeling, character, and disposition. So perhaps that might help clear up any confusion. idk...

Litaniae Cordis Sanctae Iesu (Litany of the Sacred Heart of Jesus

New Latin is a butchering, that doesn't count...!

So you prefer to deal with the Latin you like rather than the Latin actually used by Roman Catholics? 

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #78 on: October 07, 2015, 05:28:53 PM »
Stop with the smartassery, Captain Obvious, or I shall get very cross. >:( ;)

From the OCA Orthodox Daily Prayers book:

"...rejoice, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, which chases demons away through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ Who was nailed to you, descended into hell and, having trampled down the power of the devil, gave to us His precious Cross for the routing of all enemies. Help me for ever, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, with the Holy Lady Virgin Theotokos and all the Saints. Amen."
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 05:30:35 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #79 on: October 07, 2015, 05:38:17 PM »
Remembering that Cor Ad Cor Loquitor was the motto for John Henry Newman, I went looking and found this interesting piece:   https://suite.io/duncan-mcgibbon/3vt625d

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #80 on: October 07, 2015, 07:01:53 PM »
For what it's worth, the word for heart in Latin, which is what this whole practice originated from, is mentes. This word also has the meaning of: soul, mind, feeling, character, and disposition. So perhaps that might help clear up any confusion. idk...

Litaniae Cordis Sanctae Iesu (Litany of the Sacred Heart of Jesus

Cor is more precise, but still carries the dual/multi meaning of heart (physically and feeling wise), soul, judgment, and mind. I'm not sure how that would effect anyone's opinion, and as a former Catholic, whose parish was dedicated to Saint Margaret Mary, not even I am really all that familiar with the Sacred Heart. That's the classical understanding at least. It would be difficult to imagine it changing despite over 1500 years of language development.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 07:04:28 PM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #81 on: October 07, 2015, 07:49:35 PM »
For what it's worth, the word for heart in Latin, which is what this whole practice originated from, is mentes. This word also has the meaning of: soul, mind, feeling, character, and disposition. So perhaps that might help clear up any confusion. idk...

Litaniae Cordis Sanctae Iesu (Litany of the Sacred Heart of Jesus

New Latin is a butchering, that doesn't count...!

So you prefer to deal with the Latin you like rather than the Latin actually used by Roman Catholics?

is joke

Offline Sleeper

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #82 on: October 07, 2015, 10:01:02 PM »
Quote
I've had Orthodox priests tell me that they celebrate the Feast of the Sacred Heart
Privately, maybe. Publicly? Better not let their Bishop find out.

PP

Yeah, publicly, and bishops are fully aware. You can read a sermon about the feast, given on the feast, during the Parish Life Conference of the Diocese of Wichita and Mid-America here.

It's not exactly a secret.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 10:01:30 PM by Sleeper »

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #83 on: October 08, 2015, 11:28:48 AM »
Quote
I've had Orthodox priests tell me that they celebrate the Feast of the Sacred Heart
Privately, maybe. Publicly? Better not let their Bishop find out.

PP

Yeah, publicly, and bishops are fully aware. You can read a sermon about the feast, given on the feast, during the Parish Life Conference of the Diocese of Wichita and Mid-America here.

It's not exactly a secret.
This is from 2007. I was told this was all put to a halt a few years ago.

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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #84 on: October 08, 2015, 07:51:37 PM »
I was speaking to Priest John Morris just this year and he says that there is still a feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus kept in their western rite vicariate.  Find him ask him write to bishops call down heaven...

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #85 on: October 08, 2015, 11:33:50 PM »
Stop with the smartassery, Captain Obvious, or I shall get very cross. >:( ;)

From the OCA Orthodox Daily Prayers book:

"...rejoice, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, which chases demons away through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ Who was nailed to you, descended into hell and, having trampled down the power of the devil, gave to us His precious Cross for the routing of all enemies. Help me for ever, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, with the Holy Lady Virgin Theotokos and all the Saints. Amen."
You're still not making any sense. How is the Cross a body part of Jesus?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #86 on: October 09, 2015, 01:55:49 AM »
Stop with the smartassery, Captain Obvious, or I shall get very cross. >:( ;)

From the OCA Orthodox Daily Prayers book:

"...rejoice, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, which chases demons away through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ Who was nailed to you, descended into hell and, having trampled down the power of the devil, gave to us His precious Cross for the routing of all enemies. Help me for ever, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, with the Holy Lady Virgin Theotokos and all the Saints. Amen."
You're still not making any sense. How is the Cross a body part of Jesus?

The Cross does not have to be a body part of Jesus for the analogy to go through.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #87 on: October 09, 2015, 02:28:30 AM »
Stop with the smartassery, Captain Obvious, or I shall get very cross. >:( ;)

From the OCA Orthodox Daily Prayers book:

"...rejoice, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, which chases demons away through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ Who was nailed to you, descended into hell and, having trampled down the power of the devil, gave to us His precious Cross for the routing of all enemies. Help me for ever, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, with the Holy Lady Virgin Theotokos and all the Saints. Amen."
You're still not making any sense. How is the Cross a body part of Jesus?

The Cross does not have to be a body part of Jesus for the analogy to go through.
What analogy?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #88 on: October 09, 2015, 03:00:50 AM »
Stop with the smartassery, Captain Obvious, or I shall get very cross. >:( ;)

From the OCA Orthodox Daily Prayers book:

"...rejoice, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, which chases demons away through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ Who was nailed to you, descended into hell and, having trampled down the power of the devil, gave to us His precious Cross for the routing of all enemies. Help me for ever, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, with the Holy Lady Virgin Theotokos and all the Saints. Amen."
You're still not making any sense. How is the Cross a body part of Jesus?

The Cross does not have to be a body part of Jesus for the analogy to go through.
What analogy?
Between a couple objected-to aspects of the Sacred Heart tradition and how we often treat the Cross in our tradition.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 03:01:16 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #89 on: October 09, 2015, 04:04:22 AM »
Stop with the smartassery, Captain Obvious, or I shall get very cross. >:( ;)

From the OCA Orthodox Daily Prayers book:

"...rejoice, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, which chases demons away through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ Who was nailed to you, descended into hell and, having trampled down the power of the devil, gave to us His precious Cross for the routing of all enemies. Help me for ever, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, with the Holy Lady Virgin Theotokos and all the Saints. Amen."
You're still not making any sense. How is the Cross a body part of Jesus?

The Cross does not have to be a body part of Jesus for the analogy to go through.
What analogy?
Between a couple objected-to aspects of the Sacred Heart tradition and how we often treat the Cross in our tradition.
The point where your analogy breaks down is that the Cross never was a body part of Jesus. You might want to try another analogy, because this one isn't working.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 04:05:26 AM by PeterTheAleut »
Not all who wander are lost.