Author Topic: Sacred Heart of Jesus  (Read 6387 times)

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Offline Anastasia1

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Sacred Heart of Jesus
« on: September 17, 2015, 06:53:20 AM »
What would be an Orthodox reaction to something with a "Sacred Heart of Jesus" devotion on it? Though not part of Orthodox tradition, how would that line up with our theology?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2015, 06:53:42 AM by Anastasia1 »
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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2015, 07:07:06 AM »
It doesn't.
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Offline primuspilus

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2015, 07:32:51 AM »
What would be an Orthodox reaction to something with a "Sacred Heart of Jesus" devotion on it? Though not part of Orthodox tradition, how would that line up with our theology?
Another of a multitude of RC innovations. It has no place in Orthodoxy, Eastern or Western Rite.

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Offline LBK

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2015, 08:07:49 AM »
Agree with both Arachne and PP. It has no basis or place in Orthodox tradition.
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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2015, 10:31:20 PM »
What would be an Orthodox reaction to something with a "Sacred Heart of Jesus" devotion on it? Though not part of Orthodox tradition, how would that line up with our theology?

Although it is not Orthodox I have seen some homes in Orthodox countries with pictures, not Icons of the Sacred Heart.  I also saw the Miraculous heart of Mary with 7 swords picture...  Although it is rare in Orthodox households it does exist in some Eastern European homes.

Offline Sam G

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2015, 11:24:06 PM »
It grew out of the overemphasis the west began to place on devotion to the bodily sufferings of Our Lord after the Schism. It has no basis in Orthodox spirituality, east or west.

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Offline JoeS2

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2015, 11:26:58 PM »
If the "Sacred Heart of Jesus" was our only stumbling block to unity we would be considered very fortunate.

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2015, 11:33:12 PM »
Perhaps the heart can bbe interpreted as Christ's human aspect? I think it is a romantic devotion.

Offline LBK

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2015, 11:42:11 PM »
Perhaps the heart can bbe interpreted as Christ's human aspect? I think it is a romantic devotion.

No. We worship Christ in His entirety, not an attribute of His. Romanticism is irrelevant and no justification.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 11:42:45 PM by LBK »
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2015, 11:44:26 PM »
Perhaps the heart can bbe interpreted as Christ's human aspect? I think it is a romantic devotion.

No. We worship Christ in His entirety, not an attribute of His. Romanticism is irrelevant and no justification.

But the Sacrfed Heart is venerated by itself, not worshiped, no?

Offline LBK

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2015, 11:46:14 PM »
Perhaps the heart can bbe interpreted as Christ's human aspect? I think it is a romantic devotion.

No. We worship Christ in His entirety, not an attribute of His. Romanticism is irrelevant and no justification.

But the Sacrfed Heart is venerated by itself, not worshiped, no?

In the RCC, yes. In Orthodoxy, no. There is no place at all for sacred heart devotions in Orthodoxy.
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Offline wgw

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2015, 09:36:56 AM »
The greatest problem with the Sacred Heart is of course that a devotion to it represents a Nestorian splitting of veneration between the humanity and divinity of the Lord.  There is also the disagreeable fact that this devotion emerged from a private revelation; one of the great errors of the 18th cenrury RCC was in approving this divergence. 
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2015, 11:37:21 AM »
The greatest problem with the Sacred Heart is of course that a devotion to it represents a Nestorian splitting of veneration between the humanity and divinity of the Lord.  There is also the disagreeable fact that this devotion emerged from a private revelation; one of the great errors of the 18th cenrury RCC was in approving this divergence.

Have the EP or any other Church figure tried to inform the Papacy of this problem? I can see they would defend it by claiming it is merely figurative or something.

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2015, 09:05:47 AM »
There is no reconciliation by many here.
Sad.
And we venerate the bones of others but not one whit of consideration for this......
Not my cup o' tea either but to dismiss it in it's entirety is foolishness, IMNSHO.
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2015, 12:49:59 PM »
There is no reconciliation by many here.
Sad.
And we venerate the bones of others but not one whit of consideration for this......
Not my cup o' tea either but to dismiss it in it's entirety is foolishness, IMNSHO.

It's been the subject of a number of whits of consideration and found wanting.  Not so relic veneration.  But nice try.

Offline Cyrillic

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2015, 01:05:54 PM »
Theological issues aside, the Sacred Heart devotion is as scary as it is gaudy.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 01:06:33 PM by Cyrillic »

Offline converted viking

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2015, 01:51:04 PM »
Theological issues aside, the Sacred Heart devotion is as scary as it is gaudy.

And creepy.

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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2015, 02:25:32 PM »
There is no reconciliation by many here.
Sad.
And we venerate the bones of others but not one whit of consideration for this......
Not my cup o' tea either but to dismiss it in it's entirety is foolishness, IMNSHO.

It's been the subject of a number of whits of consideration and found wanting.  Not so relic veneration.  But nice try.

I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2015, 05:32:17 PM »
No. We worship Christ in His entirety, not an attribute of His. Romanticism is irrelevant and no justification.
I heard of this woman once who adored the feet of Christ. She even wasted all of this expensive perfume doing so. To think that she believed a mere attribute was worthy of her attention... She went so far as to weep while she did it, too. What crass Western Post-Renaissance sensualism, fetishism and emotionalism.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 05:34:20 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2015, 06:02:07 PM »
No. We worship Christ in His entirety, not an attribute of His. Romanticism is irrelevant and no justification.
I heard of this woman once who adored the feet of Christ.
That's a real stretch to say that she adored Christ's feet in and of themselves. She adored Christ but expressed this adoration by washing His feet.
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2015, 06:09:37 PM »
No. We worship Christ in His entirety, not an attribute of His. Romanticism is irrelevant and no justification.
I heard of this woman once who adored the feet of Christ.
That's a real stretch to say that she adored Christ's feet in and of themselves. She adored Christ but expressed this adoration by washing His feet.
You mean like how one could adore Christ but express this adoration by venerating his heart, or by referring to the Cross as an agent in hymns?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 06:09:56 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2015, 06:13:02 PM »
No. We worship Christ in His entirety, not an attribute of His. Romanticism is irrelevant and no justification.
I heard of this woman once who adored the feet of Christ.
That's a real stretch to say that she adored Christ's feet in and of themselves. She adored Christ but expressed this adoration by washing His feet.
You mean like how one could adore Christ but express this adoration by venerating his heart, or by referring to the Cross as an agent in hymns?
Why do you link the veneration of the Cross to the veneration of the Sacred Heart? Was the Cross a body part of Jesus?
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Offline Sleeper

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2015, 06:24:53 PM »
If one can track down the thoughtful masters thesis written by the Very Rev. Fr. Ed Hughes on paraliturgical devotions within the Western Church and how Orthodoxy can understand them, it's worth the time. He skewers any "maudlin" aspects of the devotion, and maintains that the devotion can be understood apart from a literal "pulmonary artery" type of understanding.

It should be noted that there are indeed Orthodox who maintain this devotion, and some parishes who celebrate it as a feast, and that it is not understood in the same way as it was popularly understood within Roman Catholicism.

It is included in the St. Ambrose Prayer Book with the following introduction:

"The Western Orthodox use of this devotion — although the devotion didn’t develop until the 17th century, long after the schism between the East and West — is directed to the compassion of Jesus Christ, represented by His Sacred Heart. The devotion does parallel the Eastern Rite devotion found in The Akathist to the Sweetest Lord Jesus, which has been popular among Eastern Christians for centuries. It is not a devotion to a specific physical organ and body part, anymore than when we say of ourselves, “my heart within me is troubled,” but to Our Lord’s compassionate love for us. The heart is long been taken to be the symbolic seat of love and the Heart of Jesus reveals the fundamental fact of Christianity that God loves us. Devotion to the Sacred Heart bestows a deeper insight into the Divine love and a surer confidence in it. As we see something of God’s love, we shall want to make a return in terms of love and this devotion enables us to express the love of our own hearts." p. 370

You don't have to agree with it, but be sure to make the necessary distinctions when discussing its merits.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2015, 06:33:42 PM »
Why do you link the veneration of the Cross to the veneration of the Sacred Heart? Was the Cross a body part of Jesus?
Well, many object to the Sacred Heart devotions because they seem to treat the Heart itself as an agent. Yet we have hymns that do the same with the Cross (which, theologically, implies/discloses Christ), yet we do not find these objectionable, nor do we interpret them in some carnal fashion.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 06:34:07 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2015, 07:59:28 AM »
There is no reconciliation by many here.
Sad.
And we venerate the bones of others but not one whit of consideration for this......
Not my cup o' tea either but to dismiss it in it's entirety is foolishness, IMNSHO.

It's been the subject of a number of whits of consideration and found wanting.  Not so relic veneration.  But nice try.

Not a 'try', just an observation.
Painful to have witnessed such subjects found wanting.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2015, 08:10:20 AM »
No. We worship Christ in His entirety, not an attribute of His. Romanticism is irrelevant and no justification.
I heard of this woman once who adored the feet of Christ.
That's a real stretch to say that she adored Christ's feet in and of themselves. She adored Christ but expressed this adoration by washing His feet.
You mean like how one could adore Christ but express this adoration by venerating his heart, or by referring to the Cross as an agent in hymns?
Why do you link the veneration of the Cross to the veneration of the Sacred Heart? Was the Cross a body part of Jesus?

Knowing my heart, observing what's in the heart of man, and relating such to a Pure Heart, one can see that, no?
For all that is "known" here, their Heart could by our Nous.
If one wishes creepiness, go ahead, as many find kissing bones or people in repose 'creepy'.
Judgement is most often a personal issue, then passing such judgement upon others, making it objectionable for them to venerate chosen 'things' and then castigating for such!
Lord, save us from ourselves.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2015, 10:16:41 AM »
Why do you link the veneration of the Cross to the veneration of the Sacred Heart? Was the Cross a body part of Jesus?
Well, many object to the Sacred Heart devotions because they seem to treat the Heart itself as an agent. Yet we have hymns that do the same with the Cross (which, theologically, implies/discloses Christ), yet we do not find these objectionable, nor do we interpret them in some carnal fashion.
That's because even St. Paul talked of his desire to glory in the Cross of our Lord. Where in the Christian Scriptures do we see anyone talk of glorying in or venerating the heart of our Lord?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 10:17:12 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2015, 10:18:56 AM »
Why do you link the veneration of the Cross to the veneration of the Sacred Heart? Was the Cross a body part of Jesus?
Well, many object to the Sacred Heart devotions because they seem to treat the Heart itself as an agent. Yet we have hymns that do the same with the Cross (which, theologically, implies/discloses Christ), yet we do not find these objectionable, nor do we interpret them in some carnal fashion.
That's because even St. Paul talked of his desire to glory in the Cross of our Lord. Where in the Christian Scriptures do we see anyone talk of glorying in or venerating the heart of our Lord?

Apparently heart in Koine Greek is καρδία, is this ever referenced to Christ? In my reading it seems the word also can mean mind or seat of the mind.

EDIT: "). Heart is similar in meaning to soul, but often the heart has a focus on thinking and understanding (Mk 2:8; Lk 1:51; 24:38)

the heart, regarded as the seat of feeling, impulse, affection, desire, Mt. 6:21; 22:37; Phil. 1:7; the heart, as the seat of intellect, Mt. 13:15; Rom. 1:21; the heart, as the inner and mental frame, Mt. 5:8; Lk. 16:15; 1 Pet. 3:4; the conscience, 1 Jn. 3:20, 21; the heart, the inner part, middle, center, Mt. 12:40"
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 10:20:14 AM by Amatorus »

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2015, 12:19:55 PM »
Why do you link the veneration of the Cross to the veneration of the Sacred Heart? Was the Cross a body part of Jesus?
Well, many object to the Sacred Heart devotions because they seem to treat the Heart itself as an agent. Yet we have hymns that do the same with the Cross (which, theologically, implies/discloses Christ), yet we do not find these objectionable, nor do we interpret them in some carnal fashion.
That's because even St. Paul talked of his desire to glory in the Cross of our Lord. Where in the Christian Scriptures do we see anyone talk of glorying in or venerating the heart of our Lord?

They talk about veneration his feet, which is similar. The hymn of kassiani makes a big deal out of that.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 12:21:34 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2015, 01:28:15 PM »
To me, it seems that the veneration of the Sacred Heart would not be appropriate because it arose out of an apparition that occurred outside of the Church. We have no way of determining where the apparition came from or whether it is indeed valid. When we kiss the feet of Christ in an icon, there is precedent inside the Church from very early times of the appropriateness of such an act of worship. There is no Orthodox tradition regarding the Sacred Heart of Christ devotion.
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Offline Rohzek

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2015, 02:09:10 PM »
I think the charges of Nestorianism are misplaced against this practice. As Pope Pius XII noted on it, the practice acknowledges the truth of the hypostatic union. Catholics do not separate or deny the two natures of the single person of Christ when they venerate his heart. And while it might be a freaky practice for some of us, just remember that it has its roots in popular practice and focus on the bodily sufferings of God that date beginning around the 13th century. Their veneration is done out of their belief and wish to imitate Christ's radical example of selflessness, spiritual and bodily. As with most of the early focus on the sufferings of Christ during this period, it was very popular among nuns and lay women, mostly because every other devotion was so tightly regulated by men. Any outlet of religious oppression is therefore bound to contain some peculiarities.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 02:10:26 PM by Rohzek »
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Offline Antonious Nikolas

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2015, 02:22:53 PM »
To me, it seems that the veneration of the Sacred Heart would not be appropriate because it arose out of an apparition that occurred outside of the Church. We have no way of determining where the apparition came from or whether it is indeed valid. When we kiss the feet of Christ in an icon, there is precedent inside the Church from very early times of the appropriateness of such an act of worship. There is no Orthodox tradition regarding the Sacred Heart of Christ devotion.

+1
I'm with the camp of 13 million Americans that believe politicians are, or are controlled by, Reptilians. I think only monks can solve this problem. It doesn't seem right that they prefer to ignore it.

Offline gueranger

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2015, 03:27:36 PM »
The greatest problem with the Sacred Heart is of course that a devotion to it represents a Nestorian splitting of veneration between the humanity and divinity of the Lord.

That's ridiculous. I understand that is an inappropriate devotion for the Orthodox since it originated from a post-schism apparition, but there is nothing Nestorian about it. The intention of the devotion is to foster a deeper love and imitation of Christ who said, "Take up my yoke upon you, and learn of me, because I am meek, and humble of heart..." Matt 11:29.


But the Sacrfed Heart is venerated by itself, not worshiped, no?

Obviously images are merely venerated. But in virtue of the Hypostatic Union every part of Christ is Divine and worthy of worship. Not that Catholics are consciously worshiping only a "part" of Jesus. Criticizing Catholics by saying they are dividing Christ up in their worship through the Sacred Heart devotion is kind of silly to me, as someone who used to practice this devotion.

I would never try to force this devotion into Orthodoxy or iconography, but personally, apparitions aside, I don't find anything objectionable about the Sacred Heart as a symbol of God's love for us. But that's just me.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2015, 03:29:15 PM by gueranger »

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2015, 03:25:09 PM »
If one can track down the thoughtful masters thesis written by the Very Rev. Fr. Ed Hughes on paraliturgical devotions within the Western Church and how Orthodoxy can understand them, it's worth the time. He skewers any "maudlin" aspects of the devotion, and maintains that the devotion can be understood apart from a literal "pulmonary artery" type of understanding.

It should be noted that there are indeed Orthodox who maintain this devotion, and some parishes who celebrate it as a feast, and that it is not understood in the same way as it was popularly understood within Roman Catholicism.

It is included in the St. Ambrose Prayer Book with the following introduction:

"The Western Orthodox use of this devotion — although the devotion didn’t develop until the 17th century, long after the schism between the East and West — is directed to the compassion of Jesus Christ, represented by His Sacred Heart. The devotion does parallel the Eastern Rite devotion found in The Akathist to the Sweetest Lord Jesus, which has been popular among Eastern Christians for centuries. It is not a devotion to a specific physical organ and body part, anymore than when we say of ourselves, “my heart within me is troubled,” but to Our Lord’s compassionate love for us. The heart is long been taken to be the symbolic seat of love and the Heart of Jesus reveals the fundamental fact of Christianity that God loves us. Devotion to the Sacred Heart bestows a deeper insight into the Divine love and a surer confidence in it. As we see something of God’s love, we shall want to make a return in terms of love and this devotion enables us to express the love of our own hearts." p. 370

You don't have to agree with it, but be sure to make the necessary distinctions when discussing its merits.

This is very important to anyone who seriously wants to have some understanding of this particular devotion.  It is not a devotion to a body part at all but to the symbol of something which is expressed very accurately above, and had definite eastern origins.  I was not aware of the publication mentioned so my thanks to the author of this post.   Also as a post script: The devotion is actually older than the 1700s but more localized and had become part of the liturgical life of the Dominican order by the 1700s long before any revelations or apparitions on the matter....M.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2015, 03:36:19 PM »
http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/orthodoxy/modern-orthodox-use-of-the-western-rite/

If you follow the essay to the end you will see the reference to Father Ed Hughes and his text written in an Orthodox context for the use of Western rite Orthodox and those Orthodox who would continue to mis-understand them.   So that when LBK says that the devotion has no place in Orthodoxy, my guess is that she means eastern Orthodoxy.  But it certainly does have a place in universal Orthodoxy.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 03:37:31 PM by elijahmaria »

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2015, 03:48:19 PM »
The problem is that some Russians, I think, said that it was unorthodox, and they have Russians dixit power. They may have even been Russian expats which adds to the authority.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 03:48:39 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #36 on: October 06, 2015, 04:03:07 PM »
The problem is that some Russians, I think, said that it was unorthodox, and they have Russians dixit power. They may have even been Russian expats which adds to the authority.

That makes sense.  For several centuries western Europe made great and formal inroads into Russian life.  The monarchies guaranteed that it would be that way.  So the push goes the other way after a time and much that is so-called western is rejected.  The Western rite in the Antiochian Church is much less inhibited and Byzantinized than it is in ROCOR, though the rite is also adjusted in the Antiochian Church, again you can argue a Russian influence there.  But the paraliturgical devotions seem to be better utilized under Antioch.

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #37 on: October 06, 2015, 05:27:29 PM »
This is very important to anyone who seriously wants to have some understanding of this particular devotion.  It is not a devotion to a body part at all...

I'm sorry, but I have in my library pre-Vatican II Roman Catholic publications which very clearly state it is a devotion to a particular body part.  You may contend it is not the primary object of the devotion, but "not a devotion to a body part at all" is an exaggeration. 

Quote
...but to the symbol of something which is expressed very accurately above, and had definite eastern origins. 

Such as?

Quote
I was not aware of the publication mentioned so my thanks to the author of this post.   Also as a post script: The devotion is actually older than the 1700s but more localized and had become part of the liturgical life of the Dominican order by the 1700s long before any revelations or apparitions on the matter....M.

Sure, devotion to the heart predates the 1700s, along with devotion to wounds, shoulders, faces, prepuces, etc. 

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #38 on: October 06, 2015, 05:36:34 PM »
The devotion is to what the body part represents.  It represents the love of Jesus for us.

It is really that simple.

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2015, 05:49:00 PM »
http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/orthodoxy/modern-orthodox-use-of-the-western-rite/

If you follow the essay to the end you will see the reference to Father Ed Hughes and his text written in an Orthodox context for the use of Western rite Orthodox and those Orthodox who would continue to mis-understand them.   So that when LBK says that the devotion has no place in Orthodoxy, my guess is that she means eastern Orthodoxy.  But it certainly does have a place in universal Orthodoxy.

Yet again, you're trying to assert that various devotional practices and teachings which are not, and were never part of Orthodoxy. You've tried that with the immaculate conception of the Mother of God, claiming the East taught it but later suppressed it, and you were shown to be comprehensively wrong.

You are a communicant in the Roman church. Your belief in the sacred heart devotion is part of that tradition. Please do not distort what Orthodoxy believes.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2015, 05:51:14 PM »
http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/orthodoxy/modern-orthodox-use-of-the-western-rite/

If you follow the essay to the end you will see the reference to Father Ed Hughes and his text written in an Orthodox context for the use of Western rite Orthodox and those Orthodox who would continue to mis-understand them.   So that when LBK says that the devotion has no place in Orthodoxy, my guess is that she means eastern Orthodoxy.  But it certainly does have a place in universal Orthodoxy.

Yet again, you're trying to assert that various devotional practices and teachings which are not, and were never part of Orthodoxy. You've tried that with the immaculate conception of the Mother of God, claiming the East taught it but later suppressed it, and you were shown to be comprehensively wrong.

You are a communicant in the Roman church. Your belief in the sacred heart devotion is part of that tradition. Please do not distort what Orthodoxy believes.
She converted to Orthodoxy.
God bless!

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2015, 05:55:17 PM »
http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/orthodoxy/modern-orthodox-use-of-the-western-rite/

If you follow the essay to the end you will see the reference to Father Ed Hughes and his text written in an Orthodox context for the use of Western rite Orthodox and those Orthodox who would continue to mis-understand them.   So that when LBK says that the devotion has no place in Orthodoxy, my guess is that she means eastern Orthodoxy.  But it certainly does have a place in universal Orthodoxy.

Yet again, you're trying to assert that various devotional practices and teachings which are not, and were never part of Orthodoxy. You've tried that with the immaculate conception of the Mother of God, claiming the East taught it but later suppressed it, and you were shown to be comprehensively wrong.

You are a communicant in the Roman church. Your belief in the sacred heart devotion is part of that tradition. Please do not distort what Orthodoxy believes.
She converted to Orthodoxy.

Yep. You all got one of the good ones out of the deal. :)
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2015, 06:05:13 PM »
http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/orthodoxy/modern-orthodox-use-of-the-western-rite/

If you follow the essay to the end you will see the reference to Father Ed Hughes and his text written in an Orthodox context for the use of Western rite Orthodox and those Orthodox who would continue to mis-understand them.   So that when LBK says that the devotion has no place in Orthodoxy, my guess is that she means eastern Orthodoxy.  But it certainly does have a place in universal Orthodoxy.

Yet again, you're trying to assert that various devotional practices and teachings which are not, and were never part of Orthodoxy. You've tried that with the immaculate conception of the Mother of God, claiming the East taught it but later suppressed it, and you were shown to be comprehensively wrong.

You are a communicant in the Roman church. Your belief in the sacred heart devotion is part of that tradition. Please do not distort what Orthodoxy believes.

If you look LBK, Father Ed Hughes is writing to Orthodox about Orthodox.  He explains how the Orthodox, in this case western Orthodox, are to understand and practice such western devotions, paraliturgical devotions.  So your complaint really is not with me but with an entirely functional rite of the Orthodox Church.

Your assessment of me is, of course, off base but that is not your fault.  You have no way of knowing me.  Make no effort to know me and so are reduced to presumption.


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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2015, 06:13:40 PM »
http://www.saintpeterorthodox.org/orthodoxy/modern-orthodox-use-of-the-western-rite/

If you follow the essay to the end you will see the reference to Father Ed Hughes and his text written in an Orthodox context for the use of Western rite Orthodox and those Orthodox who would continue to mis-understand them.   So that when LBK says that the devotion has no place in Orthodoxy, my guess is that she means eastern Orthodoxy.  But it certainly does have a place in universal Orthodoxy.

Yet again, you're trying to assert that various devotional practices and teachings which are not, and were never part of Orthodoxy. You've tried that with the immaculate conception of the Mother of God, claiming the East taught it but later suppressed it, and you were shown to be comprehensively wrong.

You are a communicant in the Roman church. Your belief in the sacred heart devotion is part of that tradition. Please do not distort what Orthodoxy believes.

If you look LBK, Father Ed Hughes is writing to Orthodox about Orthodox.  He explains how the Orthodox, in this case western Orthodox, are to understand and practice such western devotions, paraliturgical devotions.  So your complaint really is not with me but with an entirely functional rite of the Orthodox Church.

Your assessment of me is, of course, off base but that is not your fault.  You have no way of knowing me.  Make no effort to know me and so are reduced to presumption.

I have only just seen the other thread where you state that you have now converted to Orthodoxy. I stand corrected.

However, the fact remains that the sacred heart devotion is foreign to Orthodoxy, having arisen from outside of its tradition, and long past the Great Schism. Just because a few present-day WR use it does not make it a "functional" part of the devotional life of the Church.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2015, 06:15:55 PM »

However, the fact remains that the sacred heart devotion is foreign to Orthodoxy, having arisen from outside of its tradition, and long past the Great Schism. Just because a few present-day WR use it does not make it a "functional" part of the devotional life of the Church.

Seems to me that if it is practiced in Orthodoxy it is thereby a functional part of the devotional life of the Church.  What would you call it?

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2015, 06:16:44 PM »
Seems odd to be defending the practices of the Western rite to another Orthodox believer.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 06:18:25 PM by elijahmaria »

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2015, 06:28:12 PM »

However, the fact remains that the sacred heart devotion is foreign to Orthodoxy, having arisen from outside of its tradition, and long past the Great Schism. Just because a few present-day WR use it does not make it a "functional" part of the devotional life of the Church.

Seems to me that if it is practiced in Orthodoxy it is thereby a functional part of the devotional life of the Church.  What would you call it?

An aberration adhered to by a minuscule fraction.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2015, 06:35:22 PM »

Seems to me that if it is practiced in Orthodoxy it is thereby a functional part of the devotional life of the Church.  What would you call it?

An aberration adhered to by a minuscule fraction.

Apparently there are a good number of clergy and bishops and Metropolitans and a Patriarch or two who don't see it that way.  I think I will adhere to the thinking of those who have been called to lead the Church.

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2015, 06:54:30 PM »

However, the fact remains that the sacred heart devotion is foreign to Orthodoxy, having arisen from outside of its tradition, and long past the Great Schism. Just because a few present-day WR use it does not make it a "functional" part of the devotional life of the Church.

Seems to me that if it is practiced in Orthodoxy it is thereby a functional part of the devotional life of the Church.  What would you call it?
By this logic any liturgical anomaly, that has ever occurred in any Orthodox church is now a functional part of the devotional life of the Church. 

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2015, 06:55:31 PM »

However, the fact remains that the sacred heart devotion is foreign to Orthodoxy, having arisen from outside of its tradition, and long past the Great Schism. Just because a few present-day WR use it does not make it a "functional" part of the devotional life of the Church.

Seems to me that if it is practiced in Orthodoxy it is thereby a functional part of the devotional life of the Church.  What would you call it?
By this logic any liturgical anomaly, that has ever occurred in any Orthodox church is now a functional part of the devotional life of the Church.

Indeed. Thank you for the clarity.  :)
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2015, 07:31:51 PM »
Elijiahmaria,

Another problem is that, as you know, some of the RC mystics went a little too far in their ecstatic descriptions of things (e.g. Catherine of Sienna). Many of the mystics lived during a time when people began to change the way they understood themselves and spirituality in general.

To put it short, these changes made people value inner visions, inner experiences, and made them understand terms like "inner life" differently. I believe that some of these changes were unhelpful and leading away from truth, and why I'm skeptical of prayer practices where you're supposed to conjure mental images, etc.

However, people are far too critical of these RC mystics. Teresa of Avila, for example, has great stuff. And because we're modern people, we're going to tend to read all of the Fathers in the terms of very different understandings of ourselves and our inner lives than the Fathers had. So we have to fight that battle against error either way, ignoring RC mystics isn't going to help.

Same thing with the Sacred Heart, I think. It falls under the same overreaching condemnations as the RC mystics.

Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2015, 07:49:23 PM »
There's nothing to say in the face of rejection.  I watch Orthodox believers talk and talk and talk against similar kinds of arguments leveled against them by protestants, and sometimes Catholics.  You are not going to change the minds of the already convicted.  Which is why I said I would follow those chosen to lead the Church....M.

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2015, 09:51:36 PM »
The devotion is to what the body part represents.  It represents the love of Jesus for us.

It is really that simple.


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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2015, 10:17:14 PM »









Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2015, 10:20:21 PM »
Thank you for reminding me how kitchy religious western art is. I had forgotten.  :P
God bless!

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2015, 10:25:46 PM »
Nobody said you had to like the artwork.  Because of the art, I had to wait till I was an adult and was willing to look at the teaching and not the images before I could appreciate what the "heart" symbolized and what the teaching was really all about.  Make all the fun you like it is now celebrated in western Orthodoxy so you too will need to look beyond the pictures that you like to use to make fun of the devotion.

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2015, 10:27:46 PM »
Nobody said you had to like the artwork.  Because of the art, I had to wait till I was an adult and was willing to look at the teaching and not the images before I could appreciate what the "heart" symbolized and what the teaching was really all about.  Make all the fun you like it is now celebrated in western Orthodoxy so you too will need to look beyond the pictures that you like to use to make fun of the devotion.
I don't know if or to what extent it is used in WR, but it isn't used in my parish and I am most thankful for that.
God bless!

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2015, 10:47:25 PM »
Nobody said you had to like the artwork.  Because of the art, I had to wait till I was an adult and was willing to look at the teaching and not the images before I could appreciate what the "heart" symbolized and what the teaching was really all about.  Make all the fun you like it is now celebrated in western Orthodoxy so you too will need to look beyond the pictures that you like to use to make fun of the devotion.
I don't know if or to what extent it is used in WR, but it isn't used in my parish and I am most thankful for that.

I've had Orthodox priests tell me that they celebrate the Feast of the Sacred Heart.  And others tell me that they use images of the sacred heart and liken those images to the icon of the Theotokos with the swords stuck in her chest.  I just look past the hearts-on-fire artwork.  I don't like it but I do not deride the actual devotion and what it means.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2015, 10:49:32 PM by elijahmaria »

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2015, 10:50:18 PM »
Nobody said you had to like the artwork.  Because of the art, I had to wait till I was an adult and was willing to look at the teaching and not the images before I could appreciate what the "heart" symbolized and what the teaching was really all about.  Make all the fun you like it is now celebrated in western Orthodoxy so you too will need to look beyond the pictures that you like to use to make fun of the devotion.

I think you assume too much. 

You can claim that the heart symbolises something else, but you can't claim that the devotion has nothing to do with the body part at all, as you did.  There is clearly a version of this devotion which is focused on the heart as a body part, even separated from the body of the person. 

And it's not just the heart of Jesus, though that is the most popular.  There are also the hearts of Mary, of Joseph, and (new to me) John (the Evangelist?).  These can't all be devotions to relics.  Are they also devotions to the heart as symbol of the love of a person?  What is special about the love of these saints in particular?  What other saints' hearts can be the focus of devotion? 

The Western Orthodox may have a devotion to the heart of Christ, but until proven otherwise, I'm willing to take for granted that they have adapted it to be more suitable in an Orthodox context.  They were willing to make such changes, though IMO unnecessary, to the Eucharistic Canon, so I'm not sure why a private devotion should be untouchable. 

And I'm still interested in learning how this devotion has "Eastern origins". 

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2015, 10:56:42 PM »
Nobody said you had to like the artwork.  Because of the art, I had to wait till I was an adult and was willing to look at the teaching and not the images before I could appreciate what the "heart" symbolized and what the teaching was really all about.  Make all the fun you like it is now celebrated in western Orthodoxy so you too will need to look beyond the pictures that you like to use to make fun of the devotion.
I don't know if or to what extent it is used in WR, but it isn't used in my parish and I am most thankful for that.

I've had Orthodox priests tell me that they celebrate the Feast of the Sacred Heart.  And others tell me that they use images of the sacred heart and liken those images to the icon of the Theotokos with the swords stuck in her chest.  I just look past the hearts-on-fire artwork.  I don't like it but I do not deride the actual devotion and what it means.

Are these the same Orthodox priests who have told you Orthodoxy always taught the immaculate conception, but it was suppressed in the 16th century?

Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #60 on: October 06, 2015, 11:11:52 PM »
There's nothing to say in the face of rejection.  I watch Orthodox believers talk and talk and talk against similar kinds of arguments leveled against them by protestants, and sometimes Catholics.  You are not going to change the minds of the already convicted.  Which is why I said I would follow those chosen to lead the Church....M.
Sounds like a good idea
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #61 on: October 06, 2015, 11:12:44 PM »
There is clearly a version of this devotion which is focused on the heart as a body part, even separated from the body of the person. 
You could say the same about our veneration of the Cross if taken out of the tradition.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #62 on: October 07, 2015, 12:23:34 AM »
There is clearly a version of this devotion which is focused on the heart as a body part, even separated from the body of the person. 
You could say the same about our veneration of the Cross if taken out of the tradition.
But is there clearly such a version of the veneration of the Cross that has been taken out of the tradition?
Not all who wander are lost.

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #63 on: October 07, 2015, 01:21:57 AM »
There is clearly a version of this devotion which is focused on the heart as a body part, even separated from the body of the person. 
You could say the same about our veneration of the Cross if taken out of the tradition.
But is there clearly such a version of the veneration of the Cross that has been taken out of the tradition?
Yeah
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #64 on: October 07, 2015, 08:38:59 AM »
NicholasMyra:  When the recalcitrant begin to make assertions that simply are not so, it is best to simply state the truth and ignore the rest.  The texts on how the Orthodox are to understand Catholic devotions was written in an Orthodox context and is nothing like the false inferences that are being drawn here.  That is sufficient.

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #65 on: October 07, 2015, 10:16:52 AM »
Quote
I've had Orthodox priests tell me that they celebrate the Feast of the Sacred Heart
Privately, maybe. Publicly? Better not let their Bishop find out.

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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #66 on: October 07, 2015, 11:03:45 AM »
Here is a very interesting blog posting on the Sacred Heart and the rise of it from a pedestrian devotion to a para-liturgical devotion.  The blog post itself is negative but then there's a surprising Orthodox response in the com box which is not at all negative and which actually indicates that some Orthodox do grasp its meaning.

http://philorthodox.blogspot.com/2009/06/on-latin-cultus-of-sacred-heart.html

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #67 on: October 07, 2015, 11:05:52 AM »
The Church of Antioch in America's western rite celebrates a Feast of the Sacred Heart.  That makes the devotion, liturgically, a part of Orthodoxy.   Simply because ROCOR cannot make up its mind has no bearing on the fact that it is recognized liturgically in Orthodoxy.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #68 on: October 07, 2015, 11:09:02 AM »
There is clearly a version of this devotion which is focused on the heart as a body part, even separated from the body of the person. 
You could say the same about our veneration of the Cross if taken out of the tradition.
But is there clearly such a version of the veneration of the Cross that has been taken out of the tradition?
Yeah
Can you tell us about it?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #69 on: October 07, 2015, 11:17:55 AM »
This is a brief history of the rise of the devotion over time and serves to refute some of the assertions commonly made about its appearance in the west.  It is not my work and I have long since lost track of the source but it is accurate and so I kept it though I cannot call it my own:

" It is in the eleventh and twelfth centuries that the first indications of devotion to the Sacred Heart are found. It was in the fervent atmosphere of the Benedictine or Cistercian monasteries, in the world of Anselmian or Bernardine thought, that the devotion arose, although it is impossible to say positively what were its first texts or who were its first devotees. From the 16th century the image of the Sacred Heart of Jesus was everywhere in evidence, largely due to the Franciscan devotion to the Five Wounds and to the habit formed by the Jesuits of placing the image on their title-page of their books and the walls of their churches. Nevertheless, the devotion remained an individual, or at least a private, devotion. Jean Eudes (1602-1680) made it public, gave it an Office, and established a feast for it. Père Eudes was the apostle of the Heart of Mary; but in his devotion to the Immaculate Heart there was a share for the Heart of Jesus. The most significant source for the devotion to the Sacred Heart in the form it is known today was Margaret Mary Alacoque (1647-1690), who claimed to have received visions of Jesus Christ. There is nothing to indicate that she had known the devotion prior to the revelations, or at least that she had paid any attention to it.’ "
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 11:23:34 AM by elijahmaria »

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #70 on: October 07, 2015, 01:30:54 PM »
There is clearly a version of this devotion which is focused on the heart as a body part, even separated from the body of the person. 
You could say the same about our veneration of the Cross if taken out of the tradition.
But is there clearly such a version of the veneration of the Cross that has been taken out of the tradition?
Yeah
Can you tell us about it?
it's Cross-related.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #71 on: October 07, 2015, 01:40:05 PM »
There is clearly a version of this devotion which is focused on the heart as a body part, even separated from the body of the person. 
You could say the same about our veneration of the Cross if taken out of the tradition.

If you are willing to flesh that out some more, I'd be interested to hear it.  I'm not sure I agree that the veneration of the Cross in Orthodoxy is similar to the veneration of Christ's heart in Roman Catholicism.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #72 on: October 07, 2015, 02:20:54 PM »
There is clearly a version of this devotion which is focused on the heart as a body part, even separated from the body of the person. 
You could say the same about our veneration of the Cross if taken out of the tradition.
But is there clearly such a version of the veneration of the Cross that has been taken out of the tradition?
Yeah
Can you tell us about it?
it's Cross-related.
Stop with the smartassery, Captain Obvious, or I shall get very cross. >:( ;)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 02:25:08 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #73 on: October 07, 2015, 02:32:17 PM »
There is clearly a version of this devotion which is focused on the heart as a body part, even separated from the body of the person. 
You could say the same about our veneration of the Cross if taken out of the tradition.
But is there clearly such a version of the veneration of the Cross that has been taken out of the tradition?
Yeah
Can you tell us about it?
it's Cross-related.
Stop with the smartassery, Captain Obvious, or I shall get very cross. >:( ;)
We'll cross that bridge when we get there.
God bless!

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #74 on: October 07, 2015, 03:39:53 PM »
For what it's worth, the word for heart in Latin, which is what this whole practice originated from, is mentes. This word also has the meaning of: soul, mind, feeling, character, and disposition. So perhaps that might help clear up any confusion. idk...
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #75 on: October 07, 2015, 03:51:52 PM »
For what it's worth, the word for heart in Latin, which is what this whole practice originated from, is mentes. This word also has the meaning of: soul, mind, feeling, character, and disposition. So perhaps that might help clear up any confusion. idk...

Litaniae Cordis Sanctae Iesu (Litany of the Sacred Heart of Jesus

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #76 on: October 07, 2015, 04:10:07 PM »
For what it's worth, the word for heart in Latin, which is what this whole practice originated from, is mentes. This word also has the meaning of: soul, mind, feeling, character, and disposition. So perhaps that might help clear up any confusion. idk...

Litaniae Cordis Sanctae Iesu (Litany of the Sacred Heart of Jesus

New Latin is a butchering, that doesn't count...!

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #77 on: October 07, 2015, 04:55:53 PM »
For what it's worth, the word for heart in Latin, which is what this whole practice originated from, is mentes. This word also has the meaning of: soul, mind, feeling, character, and disposition. So perhaps that might help clear up any confusion. idk...

Litaniae Cordis Sanctae Iesu (Litany of the Sacred Heart of Jesus

New Latin is a butchering, that doesn't count...!

So you prefer to deal with the Latin you like rather than the Latin actually used by Roman Catholics? 

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #78 on: October 07, 2015, 05:28:53 PM »
Stop with the smartassery, Captain Obvious, or I shall get very cross. >:( ;)

From the OCA Orthodox Daily Prayers book:

"...rejoice, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, which chases demons away through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ Who was nailed to you, descended into hell and, having trampled down the power of the devil, gave to us His precious Cross for the routing of all enemies. Help me for ever, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, with the Holy Lady Virgin Theotokos and all the Saints. Amen."
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 05:30:35 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #79 on: October 07, 2015, 05:38:17 PM »
Remembering that Cor Ad Cor Loquitor was the motto for John Henry Newman, I went looking and found this interesting piece:   https://suite.io/duncan-mcgibbon/3vt625d

Offline Rohzek

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #80 on: October 07, 2015, 07:01:53 PM »
For what it's worth, the word for heart in Latin, which is what this whole practice originated from, is mentes. This word also has the meaning of: soul, mind, feeling, character, and disposition. So perhaps that might help clear up any confusion. idk...

Litaniae Cordis Sanctae Iesu (Litany of the Sacred Heart of Jesus

Cor is more precise, but still carries the dual/multi meaning of heart (physically and feeling wise), soul, judgment, and mind. I'm not sure how that would effect anyone's opinion, and as a former Catholic, whose parish was dedicated to Saint Margaret Mary, not even I am really all that familiar with the Sacred Heart. That's the classical understanding at least. It would be difficult to imagine it changing despite over 1500 years of language development.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 07:04:28 PM by Rohzek »
"Il ne faut imaginer Dieu ni trop bon, ni méchant. La justice est entre l'excès de la clémence et la cruauté, ainsi que les peines finies sont entre l'impunité et les peines éternelles." - Denise Diderot, Pensées philosophiques 1746

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #81 on: October 07, 2015, 07:49:35 PM »
For what it's worth, the word for heart in Latin, which is what this whole practice originated from, is mentes. This word also has the meaning of: soul, mind, feeling, character, and disposition. So perhaps that might help clear up any confusion. idk...

Litaniae Cordis Sanctae Iesu (Litany of the Sacred Heart of Jesus

New Latin is a butchering, that doesn't count...!

So you prefer to deal with the Latin you like rather than the Latin actually used by Roman Catholics?

is joke

Offline Sleeper

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #82 on: October 07, 2015, 10:01:02 PM »
Quote
I've had Orthodox priests tell me that they celebrate the Feast of the Sacred Heart
Privately, maybe. Publicly? Better not let their Bishop find out.

PP

Yeah, publicly, and bishops are fully aware. You can read a sermon about the feast, given on the feast, during the Parish Life Conference of the Diocese of Wichita and Mid-America here.

It's not exactly a secret.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 10:01:30 PM by Sleeper »

Offline primuspilus

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #83 on: October 08, 2015, 11:28:48 AM »
Quote
I've had Orthodox priests tell me that they celebrate the Feast of the Sacred Heart
Privately, maybe. Publicly? Better not let their Bishop find out.

PP

Yeah, publicly, and bishops are fully aware. You can read a sermon about the feast, given on the feast, during the Parish Life Conference of the Diocese of Wichita and Mid-America here.

It's not exactly a secret.
This is from 2007. I was told this was all put to a halt a few years ago.

PP
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #84 on: October 08, 2015, 07:51:37 PM »
I was speaking to Priest John Morris just this year and he says that there is still a feast of the Sacred Heart of Jesus kept in their western rite vicariate.  Find him ask him write to bishops call down heaven...

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #85 on: October 08, 2015, 11:33:50 PM »
Stop with the smartassery, Captain Obvious, or I shall get very cross. >:( ;)

From the OCA Orthodox Daily Prayers book:

"...rejoice, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, which chases demons away through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ Who was nailed to you, descended into hell and, having trampled down the power of the devil, gave to us His precious Cross for the routing of all enemies. Help me for ever, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, with the Holy Lady Virgin Theotokos and all the Saints. Amen."
You're still not making any sense. How is the Cross a body part of Jesus?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #86 on: October 09, 2015, 01:55:49 AM »
Stop with the smartassery, Captain Obvious, or I shall get very cross. >:( ;)

From the OCA Orthodox Daily Prayers book:

"...rejoice, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, which chases demons away through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ Who was nailed to you, descended into hell and, having trampled down the power of the devil, gave to us His precious Cross for the routing of all enemies. Help me for ever, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, with the Holy Lady Virgin Theotokos and all the Saints. Amen."
You're still not making any sense. How is the Cross a body part of Jesus?

The Cross does not have to be a body part of Jesus for the analogy to go through.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #87 on: October 09, 2015, 02:28:30 AM »
Stop with the smartassery, Captain Obvious, or I shall get very cross. >:( ;)

From the OCA Orthodox Daily Prayers book:

"...rejoice, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, which chases demons away through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ Who was nailed to you, descended into hell and, having trampled down the power of the devil, gave to us His precious Cross for the routing of all enemies. Help me for ever, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, with the Holy Lady Virgin Theotokos and all the Saints. Amen."
You're still not making any sense. How is the Cross a body part of Jesus?

The Cross does not have to be a body part of Jesus for the analogy to go through.
What analogy?
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #88 on: October 09, 2015, 03:00:50 AM »
Stop with the smartassery, Captain Obvious, or I shall get very cross. >:( ;)

From the OCA Orthodox Daily Prayers book:

"...rejoice, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, which chases demons away through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ Who was nailed to you, descended into hell and, having trampled down the power of the devil, gave to us His precious Cross for the routing of all enemies. Help me for ever, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, with the Holy Lady Virgin Theotokos and all the Saints. Amen."
You're still not making any sense. How is the Cross a body part of Jesus?

The Cross does not have to be a body part of Jesus for the analogy to go through.
What analogy?
Between a couple objected-to aspects of the Sacred Heart tradition and how we often treat the Cross in our tradition.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 03:01:16 AM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #89 on: October 09, 2015, 04:04:22 AM »
Stop with the smartassery, Captain Obvious, or I shall get very cross. >:( ;)

From the OCA Orthodox Daily Prayers book:

"...rejoice, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, which chases demons away through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ Who was nailed to you, descended into hell and, having trampled down the power of the devil, gave to us His precious Cross for the routing of all enemies. Help me for ever, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, with the Holy Lady Virgin Theotokos and all the Saints. Amen."
You're still not making any sense. How is the Cross a body part of Jesus?

The Cross does not have to be a body part of Jesus for the analogy to go through.
What analogy?
Between a couple objected-to aspects of the Sacred Heart tradition and how we often treat the Cross in our tradition.
The point where your analogy breaks down is that the Cross never was a body part of Jesus. You might want to try another analogy, because this one isn't working.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 04:05:26 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #90 on: October 09, 2015, 05:45:50 AM »
"God is love." [I John 4:8]


Selam
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #91 on: October 09, 2015, 10:15:37 AM »
So basically some peoplehere are implyingonce *any* concept is thought of outsidethe Church, it can never ever become part of doctrine because it's heretical forever? Is that what I'm hearing?

Any Orthodox who experiences a miracle by the Sacred Heart is secretly a Papist heretic?

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #92 on: October 09, 2015, 10:21:16 AM »
So basically some peoplehere are implyingonce *any* concept is thought of outsidethe Church, it can never ever become part of doctrine because it's heretical forever? Is that what I'm hearing?

Any Orthodox who experiences a miracle by the Sacred Heart is secretly a Papist heretic?
No, I don't think you are hearing that at all. I think you are hearing cautiousness from Orthodox persons because there is no basis for Sacred Heart teaching in our tradition.
God bless!

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #93 on: October 09, 2015, 10:34:15 AM »
So basically some peoplehere are implyingonce *any* concept is thought of outsidethe Church, it can never ever become part of doctrine because it's heretical forever? Is that what I'm hearing?

Any Orthodox who experiences a miracle by the Sacred Heart is secretly a Papist heretic?
No, I don't think you are hearing that at all. I think you are hearing cautiousness from Orthodox persons because there is no basis for Sacred Heart teaching in our tradition.

I would amend that statement to say that the basis for an expressed theology of the heart is there, but the particular teaching, as it appeared in the western Catholic tradition is not there.

What do you think?

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #94 on: October 09, 2015, 10:41:15 AM »
So basically some peoplehere are implyingonce *any* concept is thought of outsidethe Church, it can never ever become part of doctrine because it's heretical forever? Is that what I'm hearing?

Any Orthodox who experiences a miracle by the Sacred Heart is secretly a Papist heretic?
No, I don't think you are hearing that at all. I think you are hearing cautiousness from Orthodox persons because there is no basis for Sacred Heart teaching in our tradition.

Not currently though

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #95 on: October 09, 2015, 10:45:57 AM »
As sides harden, rhetoric becomes more extreme.
God bless!

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #96 on: October 09, 2015, 11:04:54 AM »
Stop with the smartassery, Captain Obvious, or I shall get very cross. >:( ;)

From the OCA Orthodox Daily Prayers book:

"...rejoice, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, which chases demons away through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ Who was nailed to you, descended into hell and, having trampled down the power of the devil, gave to us His precious Cross for the routing of all enemies. Help me for ever, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, with the Holy Lady Virgin Theotokos and all the Saints. Amen."
You're still not making any sense. How is the Cross a body part of Jesus?

The Cross does not have to be a body part of Jesus for the analogy to go through.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #97 on: October 09, 2015, 11:49:48 AM »
Stop with the smartassery, Captain Obvious, or I shall get very cross. >:( ;)

From the OCA Orthodox Daily Prayers book:

"...rejoice, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, which chases demons away through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ Who was nailed to you, descended into hell and, having trampled down the power of the devil, gave to us His precious Cross for the routing of all enemies. Help me for ever, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, with the Holy Lady Virgin Theotokos and all the Saints. Amen."
You're still not making any sense. How is the Cross a body part of Jesus?

The Cross does not have to be a body part of Jesus for the analogy to go through.
Merely repeating a useless analogy doesn't make it suddenly work. How does the veneration of a body part, a veneration not seen in our tradition, equate to the veneration of that which is praised as the very instrument of our salvation even in the Scriptures? You keep hinting at a connection, but you're not doing a very good job of explaining it.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 11:57:08 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #98 on: October 09, 2015, 01:00:16 PM »
Stop with the smartassery, Captain Obvious, or I shall get very cross. >:( ;)

From the OCA Orthodox Daily Prayers book:

"...rejoice, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, which chases demons away through the power of our Lord Jesus Christ Who was nailed to you, descended into hell and, having trampled down the power of the devil, gave to us His precious Cross for the routing of all enemies. Help me for ever, most precious and life-creating Cross of the Lord, with the Holy Lady Virgin Theotokos and all the Saints. Amen."
You're still not making any sense. How is the Cross a body part of Jesus?

The Cross does not have to be a body part of Jesus for the analogy to go through.
Merely repeating a useless analogy doesn't make it suddenly work. How does the veneration of a body part, a veneration not seen in our tradition, equate to the veneration of that which is praised as the very instrument of our salvation even in the Scriptures? You keep hinting at a connection, but you're not doing a very good job of explaining it.
They are not equivalent, but they share certain relevant properties. The two I had in mind are:

1. The object in question is physically-associated with Christ
2. The object in question is treated as an agent distinct from Christ, when to modern sensibilities it would not and could not be an agent.

This is meant to show that the following two objections to the Sacred Heart devotion:

A. The Sacred Heart devotion treats the heart as distinguishable from, and therefore divided from, Christ himself.
B. The Sacred Heart devotion treats the heart as if it were an agent, which i. is simply false and ii. divides Christ into several agents corresponding to body parts, or into two human and divine beings, or some other.

...could also be applied to some of our Cross devotions. Of course the notion that distinguishing implies dividing is nonsense, but that's another topic.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2015, 01:01:12 PM by NicholasMyra »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #99 on: October 09, 2015, 02:46:18 PM »
Before this carries on too much longer the Catholic devotion of the Sacred Heart does not distinguish the body part from the Person.  In fact the particular choice of the heart is with reference to the ancient understanding of the heart being the place where God and man communicate.  The eye of the soul.    So I too have yet to see where the comparison of the heart to the tree is viable or meaningful.

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: Sacred Heart of Jesus
« Reply #100 on: October 10, 2015, 09:31:17 AM »
So basically some peoplehere are implyingonce *any* concept is thought of outsidethe Church, it can never ever become part of doctrine because it's heretical forever? Is that what I'm hearing?

Any Orthodox who experiences a miracle by the Sacred Heart is secretly a Papist heretic?
No, I don't think you are hearing that at all. I think you are hearing cautiousness from Orthodox persons because there is no basis for Sacred Heart teaching in our tradition.

The above ends the issue for me, otherwise we are counting pins on some angel's head.
And since they are on another angel we are judging their experience and finding it false.

Thanks, Tri, I owe ya one.
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