Author Topic: University and Religion.  (Read 3478 times)

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Raylight

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University and Religion.
« on: September 12, 2015, 06:18:09 PM »
I'm very excited to be a university student, the first few days proved to me that after I finish and graduate, I will be a different person than I'm today. But that doesn't include my faith in God and Christ. However, so far almost all the books I have are talking about thinking critically, doubting your beliefs, be skeptic about everything you know. And with that, any example used for something irrational includes supernatural/paranormal matters.

I wasn't raised Christian, I converted to Christianity, and I know why I believe what I believe. But I'm sure there will be times when my faith will be challenged.

When I searched online for Religion and Critical Thinking, the results included lots of "researches" that says; the more you use critical thinking, the less religious you are!!

What are your thoughts ? Do you believe that Critical Thinking leads someone to become less religious, or maybe lose the faith. ? And why such claims are made ?

« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 06:23:40 PM by Raylight »

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2015, 07:23:06 PM »
There is no critical thinking required of students at universities.

Los[ing] the faith in university is more likely due to people experiencing a sense of independence for the first time away from mommy and daddy.
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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2015, 07:32:12 PM »
If you want to keep your faith, read the Scripture, pray, and try to find a church not far from school.
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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2015, 07:58:52 PM »
However, so far almost all the books I have are talking about thinking critically, doubting your beliefs, be skeptic about everything you know.

You should. If Christianity is true (which it is) you have nothing to fear.

But I'm sure there will be times when my faith will be challenged.

That doesn't have to be a bad thing. It will at least refresh your mind on why you believe what you believe.

And with that, any example used for something irrational includes supernatural/paranormal matters.

It's rather unacademic to just accept whatever the editors of textbooks say.

Don't make an idol out of pure reason and empiricism.

Do you believe that Critical Thinking leads someone to become less religious, or maybe lose the faith. ?

Critical thinking could lead to someone becoming less religious or losing his faith, then again, it might lead to the opposite as well.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 08:01:50 PM by Cyrillic »

Raylight

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2015, 08:35:22 PM »
However, so far almost all the books I have are talking about thinking critically, doubting your beliefs, be skeptic about everything you know.

You should. If Christianity is true (which it is) you have nothing to fear.

But I'm sure there will be times when my faith will be challenged.

That doesn't have to be a bad thing. It will at least refresh your mind on why you believe what you believe.

And with that, any example used for something irrational includes supernatural/paranormal matters.

It's rather unacademic to just accept whatever the editors of textbooks say.

Don't make an idol out of pure reason and empiricism.

Do you believe that Critical Thinking leads someone to become less religious, or maybe lose the faith. ?

Critical thinking could lead to someone becoming less religious or losing his faith, then again, it might lead to the opposite as well.


Thank you for your reply. I knew your reply would help a lot :) That is right, if Christianity is true, and it is indeed, than I should not fear critical thinking.

I think the "ego" may lead some people to leave Christianity during university, and that is the opposite of critical thinking.

Raylight

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2015, 08:39:06 PM »
There is no critical thinking required of students at universities.

Los[ing] the faith in university is more likely due to people experiencing a sense of independence for the first time away from mommy and daddy.

Yes there is, or at least where I attend. Plus, I'm taking a class about Logic.

And like my professor said; university is not all about loading the student's brain with facts and information, that is High School. It is about teaching you how to think for yourself and form your own opinions.

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2015, 08:41:27 PM »
There is no critical thinking required of students at universities.

Los[ing] the faith in university is more likely due to people experiencing a sense of independence for the first time away from mommy and daddy.

Yes there is, or at least where I attend. Plus, I'm taking a class about Logic.
LOL!!!!!!!
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Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Raylight

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2015, 08:41:56 PM »
If you want to keep your faith, read the Scripture, pray, and try to find a church not far from school.

I agree  :) There is a chapel at the university but I don't think there is a minister. Also the Catholic parish I go to currently is close to the university.


Raylight

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2015, 08:42:26 PM »
There is no critical thinking required of students at universities.

Los[ing] the faith in university is more likely due to people experiencing a sense of independence for the first time away from mommy and daddy.

Yes there is, or at least where I attend. Plus, I'm taking a class about Logic.
LOL!!!!!!!

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Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2015, 08:45:20 PM »
Depends on how you define religion. On the issue of Orthodoxy specifically, it's what we don't claim to know, but claim to experience that makes me believe in Orthodoxy. We obviously don't know how God became man. Islam, for example, claims the opposite and claims to know for a fact that a) Muhammad existed, b) the Qur'an is a perfect book from God, c) the Hadiths that come down from the scholars are trustworthy, and d) the interpretation of the Qur'an, those Hadiths is legitimate and correct. All of which, is beyond the scope of the evidence they provide. The Orthodox only claim to know what the ineffable and incomprehensible has done on earth, insofar as it has been revealed to His Saints and His Church.  (Kataphatic vs Apophatic worldviews)

So, in terms of critical thinking, Islam is much more prone to being victim of the skeptical mindset than Orthodoxy, just in terms of what claims are being made by one vs. the other.

But to answer the question, yes I think critical thinking makes people question religions which were obviously made by men. Western Christianity with it's immoral and irrational system of Substitutionary Atonement, as well as it's subjectivity in relation to Ecclesiastical affairs and interpretation of Scripture and Tradition has been questioned because of the obvious holes in such a mentality and in such a worldview.

I think Orthodoxy only claims to know so much, and then claims it cannot know everything about our ultimate reality, that it's humility in this regard leads me to embrace it. As opposed to other claims made by other faiths which are more definitive on their "relationship with Jesus" and that they'll "absolutely" be saved by faith alone. Or you'll "absolutely" go to hell, if you do this or the other thing. Those type of things do warrant skepticism and people should reject such stupid claims.
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2015, 09:00:54 PM »
Scholasticism

Raylight

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2015, 09:10:21 PM »
Scholasticism

Apparently it was introduced by theologians in the medieval universities. It is a method of critical thinking. Another example of how Christendom created today's academic thinking and system.

Offline Amatorus

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2015, 09:15:32 PM »
Scholasticism

Apparently it was introduced by theologians in the medieval universities. It is a method of critical thinking. Another example of how Christendom created today's academic thinking and system.

If I recall correctly not many Orthodox are fans of it because it and indirectly caused the rise of Protestantism and by extension many nasty modern ideologies. I'm not saying all but I can understand why scholasticism can be a problem, especially when you have people who lose focus of the bigger picture and delude themselves (like Jean Calvin).

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2015, 10:10:32 PM »
Scholasticism

Apparently it was introduced by theologians in the medieval universities. It is a method of critical thinking. Another example of how Christendom created today's academic thinking and system.

If I recall correctly not many Orthodox are fans of it because it and indirectly caused the rise of Protestantism and by extension many nasty modern ideologies. I'm not saying all but I can understand why scholasticism can be a problem, especially when you have people who lose focus of the bigger picture and delude themselves (like Jean Calvin).

Martin Luther didn't always utilize scholastic argumentation, but I recall reading that there were times when he did.
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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2015, 12:08:36 AM »
There is no critical thinking required of students at universities.

Los[ing] the faith in university is more likely due to people experiencing a sense of independence for the first time away from mommy and daddy.

Yes there is, or at least where I attend. Plus, I'm taking a class about Logic.

And like my professor said; university is not all about loading the student's brain with facts and information, that is High School. It is about teaching you how to think for yourself and form your own opinions.

If you (generic "you") don't know how to think for yourself by the time you get to university age, there's not much left to be done.  Your opinion will be swayed with whatever information is provided to you. 

You (Raylight) have proved that time and again on this forum.
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Raylight

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2015, 01:00:23 AM »
There is no critical thinking required of students at universities.

Los[ing] the faith in university is more likely due to people experiencing a sense of independence for the first time away from mommy and daddy.

Yes there is, or at least where I attend. Plus, I'm taking a class about Logic.

And like my professor said; university is not all about loading the student's brain with facts and information, that is High School. It is about teaching you how to think for yourself and form your own opinions.

If you (generic "you") don't know how to think for yourself by the time you get to university age, there's not much left to be done.  Your opinion will be swayed with whatever information is provided to you. 

You (Raylight) have proved that time and again on this forum.

There are people who may not be able to think of themselves until they reach a certain age, depending on their environment, and how they raised.

As for pointing out to me being "swayed". You're right, there were times I changed my opinions as soon as I found new information, but then realize that it was irrational to do that. You can say it is part of my personality to react to things without thinking sometimes.  But I believe we all do that one way or another.

Going back to thinking for yourself point, it also depends on what you're thinking for yourself about. For example, I did think for myself when it came to religion since I was a teenager, which lead me to become a Christian. But there were other things that I wasn't able to think for myself about. And as I mentioned, some people take longer than others to "think for themselves", or at least when it comes to things that really matter.

Raylight

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2015, 01:03:14 AM »
Scholasticism

Apparently it was introduced by theologians in the medieval universities. It is a method of critical thinking. Another example of how Christendom created today's academic thinking and system.

If I recall correctly not many Orthodox are fans of it because it and indirectly caused the rise of Protestantism and by extension many nasty modern ideologies. I'm not saying all but I can understand why scholasticism can be a problem, especially when you have people who lose focus of the bigger picture and delude themselves (like Jean Calvin).

That is true. But I think it is good, because it keeps the Faith active, it keeps it relevant to many aspects of our lives. 

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2015, 05:47:34 AM »
Are you studying PPE?

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2015, 09:28:45 AM »
Had to look up "critical thinking".
Seems you are safe.

"Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action".

Ours, and any religion, is based on Revelation, which by definition cannot be "proven" via Western standards of 'analysis'. However the above definition utilizes the words "experience, reflection" and has a great conclusion re: belief & action.

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Raylight

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2015, 01:43:08 PM »
Are you studying PPE?

I'm studying Politics currently, and I'm going to study Philosophy as well.

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2015, 02:03:10 PM »
I think there is a key difference between Critical Thinking and Skepticism. I'm not sure I would agree that those with better critical thinking skills are less religious than anyone else, but people who use it to feed the fetish of skepticism certainly are. Critical thinking still requires some a priori positions in order for it to be useful. If you take those away, you can become suseptible to skepticism and you wind up wondering if we are all stuck in the Matrix.
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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2015, 02:07:28 PM »
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Corporal Tunny

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2015, 02:18:45 PM »
College shouldn't be very testing for your faith unless you're a creationist or have other beliefs than can be easily refuted by science. The existence of God, however, cannot be refuted by science, not even a little bit. Lawrence Krauss, the leading atheist physicist, cannot explain how something can come from nothing(despite the name of his book). Richard Dawkins, the leading atheist evolutionary biologist, cannot explain how Earth went from lifeless to having life. Call it the "God of the gaps" argument but those gaps are too big for us to even possibly comprehend.

The whole "smarter/critical thinkers are more likely to be atheist" meme is a modern invention by the secular left. They love to talk about the Enlightenment and never bring up that almost every scientist who's made a significant contribution in the last couple thousand years was either a Christian or a Deist at the very least. If they're such critical thinkers they should understand that saying there is no God is a logical fallacy in itself. It's also important that we understand intelligence in the right context. True intelligence is more than just your IQ or what kind of degree you have, it is spiritual in nature, knowing right from wrong, being able to discriminate in your thoughts, being loving and humble before God. The intelligence that universities promotes is simply the arrogance of man thinking they have all the answers.  There is also plenty of room for God within science and critical thinking. Science looks for scientific evidence of God within our perception yet readily admits the possibility that there may be as many as 10 or 11 dimensions in this universe, most of which are outside of our comprehension, as well as the multiverse theory, many worlds theory, all kinds of things that are more speculation than science, but for some reason there are people believe in these theories who say "there is no God!" How is that for critical thinking?

Offline William T

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2015, 03:10:47 PM »
The whole "smarter/critical thinkers are more likely to be atheist" meme is a modern invention by the secular left.

I think your setting yourself up to fall into conspiracy theory styled thinking, that's not good.  Dont be the guy doing geneologies to find "the left wing" at the bottom of everything.  Besides, this is America we're talking about, formal atheists are a rare bird, most I came across tended to be 18 yr old libertarians and people who read Dawkins, Dennet, and Sam Harris....hardly a "left wing" phenomena.

Offline Amatorus

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2015, 03:15:43 PM »
The whole "smarter/critical thinkers are more likely to be atheist" meme is a modern invention by the secular left.

I think your setting yourself up to fall into conspiracy theory styled thinking, that's not good.  Dont be the guy doing geneologies to find "the left wing" at the bottom of everything.  Besides, this is America we're talking about, formal atheists are a rare bird, most I came across tended to be 18 yr old libertarians and people who read Dawkins, Dennet, and Sam Harris....hardly a "left wing" phenomena.

I believe this is the same "nothing to worry about, you loon" logic the French and Polish living in Alsace-Lorraine and Pomerania had about 70 years ago, no?

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2015, 03:17:13 PM »
The whole "smarter/critical thinkers are more likely to be atheist" meme is a modern invention by the secular left.

I think your setting yourself up to fall into conspiracy theory styled thinking, that's not good.  Dont be the guy doing geneologies to find "the left wing" at the bottom of everything.  Besides, this is America we're talking about, formal atheists are a rare bird, most I came across tended to be 18 yr old libertarians and people who read Dawkins, Dennet, and Sam Harris....hardly a "left wing" phenomena.

I believe this is the same "nothing to worry about, you loon" logic the French and Polish living in Alsace-Lorraine and Pomerania had about 70 years ago, no?
No. Atheism straddles the political divide. There are plenty of right wing atheists, and many of them are just as hardline as the left wing atheists.
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Offline RobS

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2015, 03:18:22 PM »
Atheists are fools, best not to dialogue with them. The Psalmist agrees with me.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Corporal Tunny

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2015, 03:30:36 PM »
The whole "smarter/critical thinkers are more likely to be atheist" meme is a modern invention by the secular left.

I think your setting yourself up to fall into conspiracy theory styled thinking, that's not good.  Dont be the guy doing geneologies to find "the left wing" at the bottom of everything.  Besides, this is America we're talking about, formal atheists are a rare bird, most I came across tended to be 18 yr old libertarians and people who read Dawkins, Dennet, and Sam Harris....hardly a "left wing" phenomena.

The people who are reading Murray Rothbard this year are the same people who were reading Noam Chomsky the year before, and Karl Marx the year before that. But chances are unless you're an Econ major or just have an interest in economics, you're not going to learn Austrian economic principles or things of that nature in college. Chances are you're going to learn how capitalism caused the great depression, and Keynes, FDR and the New Deal saved the day. That's why it's no surprise that most of Bernie Sanders base is college students.

Offline Amatorus

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #28 on: September 14, 2015, 03:30:50 PM »
The whole "smarter/critical thinkers are more likely to be atheist" meme is a modern invention by the secular left.

I think your setting yourself up to fall into conspiracy theory styled thinking, that's not good.  Dont be the guy doing geneologies to find "the left wing" at the bottom of everything.  Besides, this is America we're talking about, formal atheists are a rare bird, most I came across tended to be 18 yr old libertarians and people who read Dawkins, Dennet, and Sam Harris....hardly a "left wing" phenomena.

I believe this is the same "nothing to worry about, you loon" logic the French and Polish living in Alsace-Lorraine and Pomerania had about 70 years ago, no?
No. Atheism straddles the political divide. There are plenty of right wing atheists, and many of them are just as hardline as the left wing atheists.

There is hot ice and there is dry ice. Both will tend to hurt or even kill you, but dry ice is far more common and painful.

There is unseemliness in every group, and the fallacy lies both in attempting to equalize amounts and signify why said radicalism is even objectively evil in the first place. Did you know if the Boston Tea Party happened today, the Founding Fathers would be called domestic terrorists? The flow of time is complex; although it follows the butterfly effect, a strong wave must tear the stride to really change direction.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 03:32:50 PM by Amatorus »

Offline William T

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2015, 04:20:38 PM »
The whole "smarter/critical thinkers are more likely to be atheist" meme is a modern invention by the secular left.

I think your setting yourself up to fall into conspiracy theory styled thinking, that's not good.  Dont be the guy doing geneologies to find "the left wing" at the bottom of everything.  Besides, this is America we're talking about, formal atheists are a rare bird, most I came across tended to be 18 yr old libertarians and people who read Dawkins, Dennet, and Sam Harris....hardly a "left wing" phenomena.

I believe this is the same "nothing to worry about, you loon" logic the French and Polish living in Alsace-Lorraine and Pomerania had about 70 years ago, no?

No its not.  Im not saying there is nothing to worry about, or that you asking questions is wrong. 

It's closer to saying, you are using a method  that is closing conversation and inquiry off, and it is not engaging with the issues properly.  Even if everything you think is technically 100% correct, it is still a terrible way, if not impossible, way to learn and engage things and has the tendency to lead to a needles and harmful escapism, triumphalism, and romanticism of Orthodoxy or whatever....this is the opposite attitude of what people need to have.

To have a conspiratorial mindset, demonize and simplify an opponent, do lots of geneologies, and then throw around political paradigms is a very dangerous game that isn't very helpful.  It's just as radical a method as much of what you are critquing.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 04:28:24 PM by William T »

Offline Amatorus

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2015, 05:15:16 PM »
The whole "smarter/critical thinkers are more likely to be atheist" meme is a modern invention by the secular left.

I think your setting yourself up to fall into conspiracy theory styled thinking, that's not good.  Dont be the guy doing geneologies to find "the left wing" at the bottom of everything.  Besides, this is America we're talking about, formal atheists are a rare bird, most I came across tended to be 18 yr old libertarians and people who read Dawkins, Dennet, and Sam Harris....hardly a "left wing" phenomena.

I believe this is the same "nothing to worry about, you loon" logic the French and Polish living in Alsace-Lorraine and Pomerania had about 70 years ago, no?

No its not.  Im not saying there is nothing to worry about, or that you asking questions is wrong. 

It's closer to saying, you are using a method  that is closing conversation and inquiry off, and it is not engaging with the issues properly.  Even if everything you think is technically 100% correct, it is still a terrible way, if not impossible, way to learn and engage things and has the tendency to lead to a needles and harmful escapism, triumphalism, and romanticism of Orthodoxy or whatever....this is the opposite attitude of what people need to have.

To have a conspiratorial mindset, demonize and simplify an opponent, do lots of geneologies, and then throw around political paradigms is a very dangerous game that isn't very helpful.  It's just as radical a method as much of what you are critquing.

Pause for a moment. That word you used.

"Romanticize".

I see that a lot. On tumblr, mostly, but that's not the point. Why has romanticism been seen so disgustedly in recent times. What is wrong with Romanticism? People say it inspires blind zeal, or confusion, or even promotes abusive relationships; but you know what? Why do we think that being hyper-cynical is any better? IS that going to change human nature to remove all hope from life? What is wrong with extracting and celebrating the purity and achievements of media, culture, history, etc.? Must life be lived through suspicion and shame of the past? To see ancestors as misguided, ignorant, primitive, malevolent? Must we look back and only see a Crusader's bloody sword, or a slave ship, or a colonist on safari shooting a Bengal tiger and eating a tribal baby? Why does it seem only Westerners are shamed for their romanticism and must apologize profusely until the end of time, while the people of Asia, Africa, everywhere but Europe can freely celebrate their culture and even be militant about it with little to no backlash? When will the Turks apologize for capturing Slavic Christian boys in the countryside and forcing them to be Muslim Janissaries and die for the Sultan, for example?

Yesterday I was at a festival in a town park and even though the audience was all white, the band was by black people in traditional clothing; the female singer had a cone-beehive thing on her head. She was literally screaming -- I am not exaggerating in the slightest -- and making indescribable noises that if any white woman had done, she would be sent to an asylum or boo'd off at the last. (I would swear to God on this if I could, cf. Matthew 5:37) And at the end of one of her "songs" while the backup played contemplative jazz music, she shouted "STOP THE RACISM! STOP THE BIGOTRY!!! STOP THE HATRED!!!", and then somewhat later the audience, all white and mostly hipsters and old people, started clapping with mixed looks on their faces. This was the only musical performance the ENTIRE festival. Do you think this is right? Do you think that is relevant? When was the last time those people heard some Boccherini or Tchaikovsky or traditional EUROPEAN folk music? Do you not see the guilt complex and subtle psychological development here??? Is this not insanity? Do you not see how slippery the slope is?

EDIT: I should clarify this festival required $5 admission on public park property with no free amenities other than this banshee screaming.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 05:29:22 PM by Amatorus »

Offline William T

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2015, 05:59:56 PM »
Neither people, history, the arts, any worthwhile body of knowledge or whatever are a Procrustean Bed to conform to your ideals.  And the second they don't if you bring in ultra politicized (and critical/sucpicious) geneologies and slippery slopes, accusations of heresies, and simplify people and history....do you not see how you just became a caricture of what you just criticized?


And all I meant by Romantism was what Fr. Schmemmann called "Romantic Orthodoxy".  This becomes hard to talk about if someone is bringing too much baggage to the table.  I don't think a forum is the appropriate place to deal with that.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 06:02:40 PM by William T »

Offline Amatorus

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2015, 06:08:20 PM »
Neither people, history, the arts, any worthwhile body of knowledge or whatever are a Procrustean Bed to conform to your ideals.  And the second they don't if you bring in ultra politicized (and critical/sucpicious) geneologies and slippery slopes, accusations of heresies, and simplify people and history....do you not see how you just became a caricture of what you just criticized?


And all I meant by Romantism was what Fr. Schmemmann called "Romantic Orthodoxy".  This becomes hard to talk about if someone is bringing too much baggage to the table.  I don't think a forum is the appropriate place to deal with that.

I'm sorry. I don't know why I went into such a rant. I have higher priorities and I was venting something unrelated. I feel like a fool but I was mainly a little disappointed that I thought someone of your education and class would have different thoughts. I don't wish bad things on anyone, it's a very long story but I don't mean anything bad. Ignore this.

EDIT: I was about to modify that post to a "." but you posted while I had the other tab open, and now I can't. Oh well. My luck.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 06:09:38 PM by Amatorus »

Offline William T

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #33 on: September 14, 2015, 06:33:33 PM »
Neither people, history, the arts, any worthwhile body of knowledge or whatever are a Procrustean Bed to conform to your ideals.  And the second they don't if you bring in ultra politicized (and critical/sucpicious) geneologies and slippery slopes, accusations of heresies, and simplify people and history....do you not see how you just became a caricture of what you just criticized?


And all I meant by Romantism was what Fr. Schmemmann called "Romantic Orthodoxy".  This becomes hard to talk about if someone is bringing too much baggage to the table.  I don't think a forum is the appropriate place to deal with that.

I'm sorry. I don't know why I went into such a rant. I have higher priorities and I was venting something unrelated. I feel like a fool but I was mainly a little disappointed that I thought someone of your education and class would have different thoughts. I don't wish bad things on anyone, it's a very long story but I don't mean anything bad. Ignore this.

EDIT: I was about to modify that post to a "." but you posted while I had the other tab open, and now I can't. Oh well. My luck.

There's nothing to apologize for.  I'm just suggesting focus and approach should be tweeked a little.

a) If you got an F on your exam, would you: change habits or externalize blame?
b) If you enter a classroom should you: enter it as a student or a teacher? 

Be a student, do your job as a student, and try to learn as much as you can from your teachers.  if you think they, or your fellow students are out to get you or you know more, you are dead at the gate.


I get as a young man, and a young Eastern Christian man in the USA, there can be a lot going on.  But one of the worst things you can do to yourself is disengage, drop out, or condemn "the system", and only love what Dostoyevsky called "the idea of man" (and not your actual neighbor) or whatever.  That's classic male self sabotage.  There are things like your regular parish community, SOYA, the Antiochian Village, or whatever that are there for teenage/early 20s for Orthodox youth.  If you are still saying those things "aren't really Orthodox", or something similar, that may be a good sign that you should approach problems differently. 

I think one of those famous saintly modern monks said something like "be a bee and approach flowers and gather honey, not a fly flying around and being attracted to dung".  What approach are you using?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 06:36:38 PM by William T »

Offline Amatorus

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #34 on: September 14, 2015, 06:40:04 PM »
Neither people, history, the arts, any worthwhile body of knowledge or whatever are a Procrustean Bed to conform to your ideals.  And the second they don't if you bring in ultra politicized (and critical/sucpicious) geneologies and slippery slopes, accusations of heresies, and simplify people and history....do you not see how you just became a caricture of what you just criticized?


And all I meant by Romantism was what Fr. Schmemmann called "Romantic Orthodoxy".  This becomes hard to talk about if someone is bringing too much baggage to the table.  I don't think a forum is the appropriate place to deal with that.

I'm sorry. I don't know why I went into such a rant. I have higher priorities and I was venting something unrelated. I feel like a fool but I was mainly a little disappointed that I thought someone of your education and class would have different thoughts. I don't wish bad things on anyone, it's a very long story but I don't mean anything bad. Ignore this.

EDIT: I was about to modify that post to a "." but you posted while I had the other tab open, and now I can't. Oh well. My luck.

There's nothing to apologize for.  I'm just suggesting focus and approach should be tweeked a little.

a) If you got an F on your exam, would you: change habits or externalize blame?
b) If you enter a classroom should you: enter it as a student or a teacher? 

Be a student, do your job as a student, and try to learn as much as you can from your teachers.  if you think they, or your fellow students are out to get you or you know more, you are dead at the gate.


I get as a young man, and a young Eastern Christian man in the USA, there can be a lot going on.  But one of the worst things you can do to yourself is disengage, drop out, or condemn "the system", and only love what Dostoyevsky called "the idea of man" (and not your actual neighbor) or whatever.  That's classic male self sabotage.  There are things like your regular parish community, SOYA, the Antiochian Village, or whatever that are there for teenage/early 20s for Orthodox youth.  If you are still saying those things "aren't really Orthodox", or something similar, that may be a good sign that you should approach problems differently. 

I think one of those famous saintly modern monks said something like "be a bee and approach flowers and gather honey, not a fly flying around and being attracted to dung".  What approach are you using?

I'm still technically not an adult but I understand. Time is going too quickly and I get so mad at myself for hypocritically wanting to get into adult business yet retain the lack of responsibility as a child. I have extremely bad anxiety and that stunted my chances to accomplish things. The pages I could write my thoughts on could fill several Gospels. I guess the worst thing I can be doing is arguing with people who are more traveled and knowledgeable than me a random internet forum instead of studying and practicing skills I want to achieve.

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #35 on: September 14, 2015, 10:14:01 PM »
The whole "smarter/critical thinkers are more likely to be atheist" meme is a modern invention by the secular left.

I think your setting yourself up to fall into conspiracy theory styled thinking, that's not good.  Dont be the guy doing geneologies to find "the left wing" at the bottom of everything.  Besides, this is America we're talking about, formal atheists are a rare bird, most I came across tended to be 18 yr old libertarians and people who read Dawkins, Dennet, and Sam Harris....hardly a "left wing" phenomena.

The people who are reading Murray Rothbard this year are the same people who were reading Noam Chomsky the year before, and Karl Marx the year before that. But chances are unless you're an Econ major or just have an interest in economics, you're not going to learn Austrian economic principles or things of that nature in college. Chances are you're going to learn how capitalism caused the great depression, and Keynes, FDR and the New Deal saved the day. That's why it's no surprise that most of Bernie Sanders base is college students.

I highlighted the only thing you & disagree on. My son graduated in Econ from UC Davis, a state school, and is utterly clueless about Austrian Economics; Von Misses was never mentioned but the rest about capitalism, the Great Depression, Keynes, FDR and greater gov't control of monies was par for the school course, all in a most favorable light, short sighted as it is. Now that he is working in the world, sans Ivory Tower, he is coming around to the load of horse feathers that was spoon fed to him.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #36 on: September 14, 2015, 10:19:13 PM »
The whole "smarter/critical thinkers are more likely to be atheist" meme is a modern invention by the secular left.

I think your setting yourself up to fall into conspiracy theory styled thinking, that's not good.  Dont be the guy doing geneologies to find "the left wing" at the bottom of everything.  Besides, this is America we're talking about, formal atheists are a rare bird, most I came across tended to be 18 yr old libertarians and people who read Dawkins, Dennet, and Sam Harris....hardly a "left wing" phenomena.

I believe this is the same "nothing to worry about, you loon" logic the French and Polish living in Alsace-Lorraine and Pomerania had about 70 years ago, no?
No its not.  Im not saying there is nothing to worry about, or that you asking questions is wrong. 
It's closer to saying, you are using a method  that is closing conversation and inquiry off, and it is not engaging with the issues properly.  Even if everything you think is technically 100% correct, it is still a terrible way, if not impossible, way to learn and engage things and has the tendency to lead to a needles and harmful escapism, triumphalism, and romanticism of Orthodoxy or whatever....this is the opposite attitude of what people need to have.
To have a conspiratorial mindset, demonize and simplify an opponent, do lots of geneologies, and then throw around political paradigms is a very dangerous game that isn't very helpful.  It's just as radical a method as much of what you are critquing.

You are not disagreeing with him, just his approach.
One would like to think that in the give & take within public forum others involved are not made of soap bubbles so that it is not so much as to referring to the opposition as, "my esteemed opponent"  as in a debating club, but rather follow common courtesy and speak to the issues at hand.
Or, of course I could simply be in a perturbed mood which is more likely after working all day fingers: bone type AND with no beer or meat!
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #37 on: September 14, 2015, 10:21:29 PM »
Neither people, history, the arts, any worthwhile body of knowledge or whatever are a Procrustean Bed to conform to your ideals.  And the second they don't if you bring in ultra politicized (and critical/sucpicious) geneologies and slippery slopes, accusations of heresies, and simplify people and history....do you not see how you just became a caricture of what you just criticized?


And all I meant by Romantism was what Fr. Schmemmann called "Romantic Orthodoxy".  This becomes hard to talk about if someone is bringing too much baggage to the table.  I don't think a forum is the appropriate place to deal with that.

I'm sorry. I don't know why I went into such a rant. I have higher priorities and I was venting something unrelated. I feel like a fool but I was mainly a little disappointed that I thought someone of your education and class would have different thoughts. I don't wish bad things on anyone, it's a very long story but I don't mean anything bad. Ignore this.

EDIT: I was about to modify that post to a "." but you posted while I had the other tab open, and now I can't. Oh well. My luck.

There's nothing to apologize for.  I'm just suggesting focus and approach should be tweeked a little.

a) If you got an F on your exam, would you: change habits or externalize blame?
b) If you enter a classroom should you: enter it as a student or a teacher? 

Be a student, do your job as a student, and try to learn as much as you can from your teachers.  if you think they, or your fellow students are out to get you or you know more, you are dead at the gate.


I get as a young man, and a young Eastern Christian man in the USA, there can be a lot going on.  But one of the worst things you can do to yourself is disengage, drop out, or condemn "the system", and only love what Dostoyevsky called "the idea of man" (and not your actual neighbor) or whatever.  That's classic male self sabotage.  There are things like your regular parish community, SOYA, the Antiochian Village, or whatever that are there for teenage/early 20s for Orthodox youth.  If you are still saying those things "aren't really Orthodox", or something similar, that may be a good sign that you should approach problems differently. 

I think one of those famous saintly modern monks said something like "be a bee and approach flowers and gather honey, not a fly flying around and being attracted to dung".  What approach are you using?

I'm still technically not an adult but I understand. Time is going too quickly and I get so mad at myself for hypocritically wanting to get into adult business yet retain the lack of responsibility as a child. I have extremely bad anxiety and that stunted my chances to accomplish things. The pages I could write my thoughts on could fill several Gospels. I guess the worst thing I can be doing is arguing with people who are more traveled and knowledgeable than me a random internet forum instead of studying and practicing skills I want to achieve.

And here I thought you a childish one per your previous rhetorical posts, but now see, though young, you are blessed.
Good for you.  :)
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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #38 on: September 14, 2015, 10:29:39 PM »
Quote
Los[ing] the faith in university is more likely due to people experiencing a sense of independence for the first time away from mommy and daddy.

This is so dead on I couldn't tell you how many students in College are away from mommy and daddy now seek "Independence" and open mindedness (so open minded their brains fall out) sadly many turn away from the Christian faith (of all stripes) anyways Raylight I pray you are strong your heart and mind seem to be in the right place even if we never agreed on politics or Sexual issues I have no doubt you are firm in your Christian faith even if it isn't say Orthodoxy. Good Luck :)

Offline William T

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Re: University and Religion.
« Reply #39 on: September 14, 2015, 10:36:50 PM »
The whole "smarter/critical thinkers are more likely to be atheist" meme is a modern invention by the secular left.

I think your setting yourself up to fall into conspiracy theory styled thinking, that's not good.  Dont be the guy doing geneologies to find "the left wing" at the bottom of everything.  Besides, this is America we're talking about, formal atheists are a rare bird, most I came across tended to be 18 yr old libertarians and people who read Dawkins, Dennet, and Sam Harris....hardly a "left wing" phenomena.

I believe this is the same "nothing to worry about, you loon" logic the French and Polish living in Alsace-Lorraine and Pomerania had about 70 years ago, no?
No its not.  Im not saying there is nothing to worry about, or that you asking questions is wrong. 
It's closer to saying, you are using a method  that is closing conversation and inquiry off, and it is not engaging with the issues properly.  Even if everything you think is technically 100% correct, it is still a terrible way, if not impossible, way to learn and engage things and has the tendency to lead to a needles and harmful escapism, triumphalism, and romanticism of Orthodoxy or whatever....this is the opposite attitude of what people need to have.
To have a conspiratorial mindset, demonize and simplify an opponent, do lots of geneologies, and then throw around political paradigms is a very dangerous game that isn't very helpful.  It's just as radical a method as much of what you are critquing.

You are not disagreeing with him, just his approach.
One would like to think that in the give & take within public forum others involved are not made of soap bubbles so that it is not so much as to referring to the opposition as, "my esteemed opponent"  as in a debating club, but rather follow common courtesy and speak to the issues at hand.
Or, of course I could simply be in a perturbed mood which is more likely after working all day fingers: bone type AND with no beer or meat!

I don't know if I follow your statement.  I am saying there is a means-ends problem.

If a coach saw a player randomly throw a ball at a basket and the way it was done was not helpful to learning basketball,  he wouldn't really care if the ball went in or not.  When my math teacher checked my work, the last thing he cared about were the solutions. I can honestly say I had no attachment one way or the other to the ends stated.