Author Topic: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.  (Read 4829 times)

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Offline Amatorus

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Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« on: September 11, 2015, 07:55:10 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7ujvOWWfpY

Look at 1:28, for example. Two icons of the Theotokos and Christ Pantocrator, respectively. Is it there for Prince Philip? I thought he converted to Anglicanism. Aren't icons against their theology?

« Last Edit: September 11, 2015, 07:56:52 PM by Amatorus »

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2015, 08:00:51 PM »
I think some of the High Church Anglicans permit the use of icons.

Not to confuse these individuals with others such as that Episcopal one in San Francisco with the dancing business. Eeeeew.
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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2015, 08:01:12 PM »
Sadly, "Anglican theology" has long ceased being coherent. Their appropriation of Orthodox trappings is no surprise.
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2015, 08:10:24 PM »
Sadly, "Anglican theology" has long ceased being coherent. Their appropriation of Orthodox trappings is no surprise.

I always wondered this; if the Queen one morning in all honesty claimed she witnessed, say, the Archangel Michael talk to her to say some message, is that experience supposed to be embued within the Church theology then?

I know most Britons probably wouldn't take it too seriously but still.

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2015, 08:18:26 PM »
Like I said, Anglican theology has been all over the place for more than forty years. If the Queen did see such a vision, it would make no difference to what the Anglican church as a whole believes, not when there have been bishops openly questioning fundamental teachings such as the virgin birth and the Resurrection of Christ.
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2015, 08:54:32 PM »
Like I said, Anglican theology has been all over the place for more than forty years. If the Queen did see such a vision, it would make no difference to what the Anglican church as a whole believes, not when there have been bishops openly questioning fundamental teachings such as the virgin birth and the Resurrection of Christ.

Up to what Councils they accept?

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2015, 08:57:29 PM »
When senior bishops come out and say such things as belief in a literal Resurrection of Christ and a literal virgin birth are not necessary, which councils their church subscribes to are irrelevant.
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2015, 08:59:09 PM »
When senior bishops come out and say such things as belief in a literal Resurrection of Christ and a literal virgin birth are not necessary, which councils their church subscribes to are irrelevant.

Who said that and when was it said? Also shouldn't it matter more what the people believe?

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2015, 09:04:25 PM »
I think some of the High Church Anglicans permit the use of icons.

Not to confuse these individuals with others such as that Episcopal one in San Francisco with the dancing business. Eeeeew.

I have seen an icon once or twice in a (Western) RC Church and was shocked.

If I remember correctly, even though veneration of icons is theologically sound in the RC, the lack of it is purely cultural, right?

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2015, 09:12:31 PM »
Quote
Who said that and when was it said?

One of them is David Jenkins, Bishop of Durham, 1984. York Minster was hit by a lightning bolt and set on fire several days after he said these things. He is by no means the only one. Then there are American Episcopalians like Bishop Spong.
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2015, 09:15:41 PM »
Quote
Who said that and when was it said?

One of them is David Jenkins, Bishop of Durham, 1984. York Minster was hit by a lightning bolt and set on fire several days after he said these things. He is by no means the only one. Then there are American Episcopalians like Bishop Spong.

Well...what would you describe the Anglican Church as then, if anything? To quote  the late Robin Williams "I'm an Episcopal, which is Catholic Lite. It's like same religion, half the guilt. "

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #11 on: September 11, 2015, 09:16:31 PM »

I have seen an icon once or twice in a (Western) RC Church and was shocked.


You haven't been to many RC churches, have you? There would be few RC churches in the world which don't have an icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Help on display, and usually facing a stand of votive candles. This is not a new custom, either.



This icon is known in Orthodoxy as Mother of God of the Passion.
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #12 on: September 11, 2015, 09:20:13 PM »

I have seen an icon once or twice in a (Western) RC Church and was shocked.


You haven't been to many RC churches, have you? There would be few RC churches in the world which don't have an icon of Our Lady of Perpetual Help on display, and usually facing a stand of votive candles. This is not a new custom, either.



This icon is known in Orthodoxy as Mother of God of the Passion.

That's very interesting; I've never seen that, not even in St. Patrick's Cathedral. Why are icons rarely mentioned in that church, then? How did the Orthodox veneration grow so strong but Rome's decrease?

Were icons ever popular in the pre-Schism West?

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2015, 09:21:03 PM »

Well...what would you describe the Anglican Church as then, if anything?

A doctrinal mess, I'm sorry to say.  :(
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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2015, 09:31:31 PM »

That's very interesting; I've never seen that, not even in St. Patrick's Cathedral. Why are icons rarely mentioned in that church, then? How did the Orthodox veneration grow so strong but Rome's decrease?

Were icons ever popular in the pre-Schism West?

Your questions require long answers to fully address them, but here's a start:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15497.msg230203.html#msg230203
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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2015, 09:37:20 PM »

Were icons ever popular in the pre-Schism West?

Yes, there are several churches in Britain that date back to the pre-Schism.
Here is a picture of one:

http://englandandenglishhistory.com/a-guide-to-english-art-from-450-ad-to-the-present/beginnings-of-medieval-english-art

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Offline Amatorus

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2015, 09:43:56 PM »

Were icons ever popular in the pre-Schism West?

Yes, there are several churches in Britain that date back to the pre-Schism.
Here is a picture of one:

http://englandandenglishhistory.com/a-guide-to-english-art-from-450-ad-to-the-present/beginnings-of-medieval-english-art



Oh my, thank you for that link. I love this

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2015, 09:49:33 PM »
 Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.




Really?  all I see is icons hung up as pictures....I didn't see HM bowing or kissing or any other signs of actual veneration.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2015, 09:50:48 PM »
Another post which might help, Amatorus:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15497.msg230399.html#msg230399

The idea that the West did not develop a tradition of sacred iconography is silly to anyone who actually knows the history of Western art.
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2015, 09:54:45 PM »
Another post which might help, Amatorus:

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,15497.msg230399.html#msg230399

Something interesting you posted:

"In this regard, it must be remembered that the Byzantines were the descendants of the Greeks and Romans who gave the world the physical perfection of Classical sculpture and murals (such as the sculptures of Praxiteles and Pheidias, or the frescoes of Pompeii), and where the development of geometry allowed the refinement of linear perspective in depicting three dimensions on a flat surface."

It just hit me to make the connection how the same Empire that produced some of the greatest art known to man drastically changed its art focus over the centuries from the naturalistic to the abstract . :o Did the "Byzantines" see the Classical sculpture as idolatrous?

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2015, 09:56:39 PM »
Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.




Really?  all I see is icons hung up as pictures....I didn't see HM bowing or kissing or any other signs of actual veneration.

Well...I'm sure she has done something like that (kind of) in her life before at a service, but there's a cultural difference too. I don't know how the media would react if she was captured kissing an icon or praying to it. They would probably tear her apart and Protestant ministers would label her everything in the book, she can't do anything.

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2015, 09:58:52 PM »
you 'being sure' is not proof.


Sorry....I just don't buy that there is -veneration- going on here....period.

All opinions expressed by myself are quite tragically my own, and not those of any other poster or wall hangings.

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2015, 10:00:25 PM »
Here is a picture of Westminister Abbey with the two Orthodox Icons



Notice that the people there consider them more as works of art rather than icons to be venerated.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2015, 10:02:01 PM by Maria »
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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2015, 10:01:27 PM »
Quote
It just hit me to make the connection how the same Empire that produced some of the greatest art known to man drastically changed its art focus over the centuries from the naturalistic to the abstract .

Naturalism is for earthly things. The abstraction of iconography speaks of what is not of this world.

Quote
Did the "Byzantines" see the Classical sculpture as idolatrous?

It's possible some saw them in that light, but it is also telling that the standard for images suitable for veneration became the icon, not the statue.
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Offline William T

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2015, 10:09:33 PM »
Sadly, "Anglican theology" has long ceased being coherent. Their appropriation of Orthodox trappings is no surprise.

Regardless, many in Modern England, including the Royals have done much for Orthodox refugees, historical sites, preservation of the writings, and so on.  I have no patience for traditional Orthodox people so quickly condemning the West.

I  mean what do you want to say about the Orthodox?  That a minority of us  (and not us personally) didn't go iconoclastic, Islamic or commie in a time of severe persecution within our own culture?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2015, 10:14:18 PM by William T »

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2015, 10:09:53 PM »
you 'being sure' is not proof.


Sorry....I just don't buy that there is -veneration- going on here....period.

Why are you salty

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2015, 10:11:38 PM »
Sadly, "Anglican theology" has long ceased being coherent. Their appropriation of Orthodox trappings is no surprise.

Regardless, many in Modern England, including the Royals have done much for Orthodox refugees, historical sites, preservation of the writings, and so on.  I have no patience for traditional Orthodox people so quickly condemning the West.

I was going to say this, if I remember correctly Prince Charles said he was interested by Orthdoxy and had a few kind words about it.

Here is a picture of Westminister Abbey with the two Orthodox Icons



Notice that the people there consider them more as works of art rather than icons to be venerated.

I think that's more of a symptom of the illness known as "Modern Culture". :/

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2015, 10:13:07 PM »
Sadly, "Anglican theology" has long ceased being coherent. Their appropriation of Orthodox trappings is no surprise.

Regardless, many in Modern England, including the Royals have done much for Orthodox refugees, historical sites, preservation of the writings, and so on.  I have no patience for traditional Orthodox people so quickly condemning the West.

Nobody here is "condemning the west", but it is an unfortunate fact that Anglican doctrine and theology has degenerated into incoherence in recent decades, to its detriment.
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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2015, 10:21:35 PM »
I was going to say this, if I remember correctly Prince Charles said he was interested by Orthdoxy and had a few kind words about it.

Prince Philip was Orthodox before marrying the future Queen, through his being a member of the Greek royal house. Philip's grandmother was of the Romanov imperial family of Russia. Prince Charles has long had an interest in Orthodoxy, though this is not his only religious interest.
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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2015, 10:35:30 PM »
Prince Charles went on a couple visits to Mt. Athos, if I recall correctly.
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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2015, 10:42:41 PM »
Prince Charles went on a couple visits to Mt. Athos, if I recall correctly.

I think he's gone there annually for many years now.
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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2015, 01:32:21 AM »
Thread locked pending review.

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #33 on: September 17, 2015, 08:29:15 AM »
Thread open after review.  Happy posting!

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2015, 07:42:18 AM »
From my knowledge, roman catholics venerate icons.
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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2015, 08:06:39 AM »
Well...what would you describe the Anglican Church as then, if anything?

A country club for the culturally British.

If you call it 'Church of England', it will make a lot more sense.
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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2015, 09:45:58 AM »
Anglicans are quite ok with imagery and icons. Every famous Church of England Cathedral I ever visited has Icons.

Here's two icons from Southwark Cathedral,

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/Sakuramochi95/12019985_10206574848081493_7938332486185608234_n_zpstcpgrhpe.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/Sakuramochi95/12038229_10206574846201446_1244812641722163721_n_zpsyhpn8tz2.jpg

Whether or not these icons are venerated is another issue all together though.
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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2015, 10:32:17 AM »
From my knowledge, roman catholics venerate icons.

It might be more accurate to say the Roman Catholics venerate images, which includes icons, statues, pictures, etc. A lot of Catholic imagery is decorative, but people certainly kiss statues and light candles and incense in front of them. It is also very different among different ethnicities.
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2015, 10:46:24 AM »
Anglicans are quite ok with imagery and icons. Every famous Church of England Cathedral I ever visited has Icons.

Here's two icons from Southwark Cathedral,

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/Sakuramochi95/12019985_10206574848081493_7938332486185608234_n_zpstcpgrhpe.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/Sakuramochi95/12038229_10206574846201446_1244812641722163721_n_zpsyhpn8tz2.jpg

Whether or not these icons are venerated is another issue all together though.

That is very intresting nice album/avatars :P

Offline sakura95

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2015, 10:51:59 AM »
Anglicans are quite ok with imagery and icons. Every famous Church of England Cathedral I ever visited has Icons.

Here's two icons from Southwark Cathedral,

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/Sakuramochi95/12019985_10206574848081493_7938332486185608234_n_zpstcpgrhpe.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/Sakuramochi95/12038229_10206574846201446_1244812641722163721_n_zpsyhpn8tz2.jpg

Whether or not these icons are venerated is another issue all together though.

That is very intresting nice album/avatars :P

Uhh...thanks I guess  :-[
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Offline Amatorus

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #40 on: September 18, 2015, 10:55:32 AM »
Anglicans are quite ok with imagery and icons. Every famous Church of England Cathedral I ever visited has Icons.

Here's two icons from Southwark Cathedral,

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/Sakuramochi95/12019985_10206574848081493_7938332486185608234_n_zpstcpgrhpe.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/Sakuramochi95/12038229_10206574846201446_1244812641722163721_n_zpsyhpn8tz2.jpg

Whether or not these icons are venerated is another issue all together though.

That is very intresting nice album/avatars :P

Uhh...thanks I guess  :-[

Do you have Steam/Myanimelist? If you do I would really like if you PM your links to me. I also need some advice about a thing.

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #41 on: September 18, 2015, 11:07:17 AM »
Anglicans are quite ok with imagery and icons. Every famous Church of England Cathedral I ever visited has Icons.

Here's two icons from Southwark Cathedral,

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/Sakuramochi95/12019985_10206574848081493_7938332486185608234_n_zpstcpgrhpe.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/Sakuramochi95/12038229_10206574846201446_1244812641722163721_n_zpsyhpn8tz2.jpg

Whether or not these icons are venerated is another issue all together though.

That is very intresting nice album/avatars :P

Uhh...thanks I guess  :-[

Do you have Steam/Myanimelist? If you do I would really like if you PM your links to me. I also need some advice about a thing.

Sadly no :(

I can however make a Myanimelist account and PM you the link though.
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline Amatorus

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #42 on: September 18, 2015, 11:11:17 AM »
Anglicans are quite ok with imagery and icons. Every famous Church of England Cathedral I ever visited has Icons.

Here's two icons from Southwark Cathedral,

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/Sakuramochi95/12019985_10206574848081493_7938332486185608234_n_zpstcpgrhpe.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/Sakuramochi95/12038229_10206574846201446_1244812641722163721_n_zpsyhpn8tz2.jpg

Whether or not these icons are venerated is another issue all together though.

That is very intresting nice album/avatars :P

Uhh...thanks I guess  :-[

Do you have Steam/Myanimelist? If you do I would really like if you PM your links to me. I also need some advice about a thing.

Sadly no :(

I can however make a Myanimelist account and PM you the link though.

Seriously? You need tomake both accounts. Even steam has free games almost any computer can run. I can tell you more over PM. MAL is a great way to keep track of anime and such and they have forums as well. pls

Offline sakura95

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Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #43 on: September 18, 2015, 11:25:12 AM »
Anglicans are quite ok with imagery and icons. Every famous Church of England Cathedral I ever visited has Icons.

Here's two icons from Southwark Cathedral,

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/Sakuramochi95/12019985_10206574848081493_7938332486185608234_n_zpstcpgrhpe.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/Sakuramochi95/12038229_10206574846201446_1244812641722163721_n_zpsyhpn8tz2.jpg

Whether or not these icons are venerated is another issue all together though.

That is very intresting nice album/avatars :P

Uhh...thanks I guess  :-[

Do you have Steam/Myanimelist? If you do I would really like if you PM your links to me. I also need some advice about a thing.

Sadly no :(

I can however make a Myanimelist account and PM you the link though.

Seriously? You need tomake both accounts. Even steam has free games almost any computer can run. I can tell you more over PM. MAL is a great way to keep track of anime and such and they have forums as well. pls

But why?

Anyways, I already got the MAL account set up. Will PM you the link
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Offline Amatorus

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  • Posts: 1,105
Re: Can Roman Catholics and Anglicans venerate icons? Her Majesty is.
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2015, 11:27:39 AM »
Anglicans are quite ok with imagery and icons. Every famous Church of England Cathedral I ever visited has Icons.

Here's two icons from Southwark Cathedral,

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/Sakuramochi95/12019985_10206574848081493_7938332486185608234_n_zpstcpgrhpe.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e344/Sakuramochi95/12038229_10206574846201446_1244812641722163721_n_zpsyhpn8tz2.jpg

Whether or not these icons are venerated is another issue all together though.

That is very intresting nice album/avatars :P

Uhh...thanks I guess  :-[

Do you have Steam/Myanimelist? If you do I would really like if you PM your links to me. I also need some advice about a thing.

Sadly no :(

I can however make a Myanimelist account and PM you the link though.

Seriously? You need tomake both accounts. Even steam has free games almost any computer can run. I can tell you more over PM. MAL is a great way to keep track of anime and such and they have forums as well. pls

But why?

Anyways, I already got the MAL account set up. Will PM you the link

I don't have any friends...just one person I talk to sometimes.