Author Topic: How can we find the objective truth in faith when we are subject to our....idk  (Read 4421 times)

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Offline Amatorus

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I just want to know the character please.

Offline Fabio Leite

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Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.


Offline TheTrisagion

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Where are you getting your avatarsfrom, Poppy?
u serious? Is that the most important issue you have atm?
a cartoon bunny is always serious business.
God bless!

Offline minasoliman

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Christianity also believes in Tawheed.  The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One God, One Name, One Holiness, One Presence, One Grace.

The Presence of Allah means also that Allah in His fullnesss can dwell in you.  If Allah cannot dwell in you, He cannot be present, and if He cannot be present, He cannot give us His laws, and we receive laws without the need of Allah.

Ok so you and I know the Islamic/Christian debate around this statement and what proof texts get brought up and what points get raised and I am tired minas and intolerant of dances at the minute so I hope you get me. This is probably one of the most important core beliefs in Islam and similarly with Christianity, a real deal-breaker. So how does one get around this impasse uh? Because when all the debates are done on this, you're going to tell me it's faith isn't it.

Regarding the emboldened words/phrases, I can't understand this statement without defining what is meant by these.

Why does religion have to be so hard to negotiate at a time when people need it the most uh? I feel like that camel trying to squeeze everything through that needle eye and it's impossible. And I am not even rich so...

You ask a lot here, so I will try my very best to simplify and address all your points in a numerical fashion with titles to know the theme of each number.

1.  "Faith vs. Logic" 

We need to be honest.  I have engaged in discussions with very good Muslim friends, and they have a "scholastic" point of view generally.  What does "scholastic" mean?  It means that they can prove their religion by "logic".  A Muslim tends to scoff at the idea that a person needs "faith" to believe.  However, there is something "illogical" about using human logic to prove Allah.  When a Muslim criticizes the Holy Trinity as "anti-Tawheed", what I think a Muslim is doing is use his/her finite human mind to understand the infinite Allah.  In other words, he/she claims to say that the Islamic concept of Allah makes more sense because "my human mind is able to wrap around this concept better than the Trinity".

Do you see the illogicality of this?  What I see Muslims do is take Allah and make Him much much much smaller to comprehend Him rather than accept divine revelation from Allah Himself to tell us about Him.  This leads to my next point:

2.  "Indwelling of Allah" 

In Islam, Allah is infinite.  Therefore, He cannot dwell in you.  There is no "indwelling of Allah" in Islam.  Every time I have a discussion with a Muslim well-versed in his/her theology, this is outright rejected.  For Allah to "dwell" even in the universe is to make Allah smaller than infinity, which is blasphemy.  But in Christianity, "infinity" is not numerical, but qualitative.  It is a quality of Allah in that He is infinitely free and is able to do ALL things.  If He wants to dwell inside man in ALL HIS INFINITUDE, then nothing is impossible for Allah.  He can do so.  If Allah in His qualitative infinity can dwell in a finite man, Allah can reveal directly to man His will and His laws.  If Allah in His infinity cannot dwell in man, how can Allah communicate His will and His law to man?

How is it that Muhammad received the Quran?  Was he able to talk directly to Allah?  Or was it through a mediator, an angel?

3.  Eye of the Needle 

In ancient Christianity, you tend to see two definitions of "rich":  financial and intellectual.  In Matthew 11, Jesus prayed to the Father "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."  In Matthew 5, Jesus teaches "Blessed are the poor in spirit..."

You do not need to be financially rich to have the "camel through the eye of the needle" parable apply.  Many of us are very intellectual, and "puffed up in knowledge" (1 Cor. 8 ) (as I tend to be), but lack the simplicity of the heart of a child who is unconditionally loving.  Love is the central foundation of our existence.  Allah is not merely a Creator without love.  Allah Loved us into existence.  Allah is LOVE.  I am astounded this is not one of His 99 names in Islam.  It is the most basic name of Allah.  It is His very essence.  To be Creator and to be Love is two sides of the same coin.

Think of it this way.  What is the difference between "knowing" someone and "knowing about" someone.  Knowing someone means you are intimately related to this person.  Words cannot really describe that intimate loving relationship you have.  But "knowing about" someone can happen with any Joe Shmoe.  I know that Pope Francis is a 78 year old man, that he is Argentinian, that he is 5 foot whatever, that he has white hair, loves to wear white almost all the time, loves to engage in social activities particularly with the poor and underserved, that his parents were so and so, that his best friends were so and so, his favorite color is so and so, his favorite book besides the Bible is this and that, his patron saint seems to be St. Francis of Assissi, etc. etc. etc.  I can read a biography of the Pope, but that does not mean I "know" the Pope.

Contrast this idea of knowledge to how Allah "knows" us.  Indescribably, He knows each and everyone of us before we even existed, and He loves us even when we are sinners (Romans 5:8 ).  On the other hand, I am not very fond of those who continue to use logic just to describe how a belief in God makes more sense than another belief in God.  To me, that only proves to me that those who value logic in belief in Allah means they only know about Allah, but they do not really "know" Allah.  So when you try to describe Allah in terms of relationship, love, and revelation to these "logical people", it is also like a camel going through the eye of a needle.  Sometimes, one needs to fall off that camel, and maybe it might help to make sense.  It is not impossible, but it requires a bit more humility than those who can easily dismiss a belief that has been held for six centuries.

Religion is not about negotiation.  If the Trinity could be negotiated, we wouldn't have records of fighting Trinitarian heresies in the history of Christianity.  Truth is not up for negotiation, but Truth is Love, and Love wishes to incorporate us into His divine life because the essence of Love is Life-giving, as any loving significant other gives ALL his/her life to you.

"And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God." (Ephesians 3)

Faith is about Love, not a blind pursuit of belief in anything.  If Allah Loves, then Allah in His infinite self can come and dwell in You and share His infinite Life to you.  You have faith in the most powerful expressions of Love in your life: your parents, your friends, your siblings, your children, your spouse, and not least your Allah.  Allah is not Love if He cannot give His Life to you.  Begin with Love, and you might find the objective truth you are looking for.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 05:16:32 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Where are you getting your avatarsfrom, Poppy?
u serious? Is that the most important issue you have atm?
a cartoon bunny is always serious business.

More seriousier than a rainbow unicorn?
God is The Creator of All Free Beings

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Zounds!
And thanks.

Christianity also believes in Tawheed.  The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One God, One Name, One Holiness, One Presence, One Grace.

The Presence of Allah means also that Allah in His fullnesss can dwell in you.  If Allah cannot dwell in you, He cannot be present, and if He cannot be present, He cannot give us His laws, and we receive laws without the need of Allah.

Ok so you and I know the Islamic/Christian debate around this statement and what proof texts get brought up and what points get raised and I am tired minas and intolerant of dances at the minute so I hope you get me. This is probably one of the most important core beliefs in Islam and similarly with Christianity, a real deal-breaker. So how does one get around this impasse uh? Because when all the debates are done on this, you're going to tell me it's faith isn't it.

Regarding the emboldened words/phrases, I can't understand this statement without defining what is meant by these.

Why does religion have to be so hard to negotiate at a time when people need it the most uh? I feel like that camel trying to squeeze everything through that needle eye and it's impossible. And I am not even rich so...

You ask a lot here, so I will try my very best to simplify and address all your points in a numerical fashion with titles to know the theme of each number.

1.  "Faith vs. Logic" 

We need to be honest.  I have engaged in discussions with very good Muslim friends, and they have a "scholastic" point of view generally.  What does "scholastic" mean?  It means that they can prove their religion by "logic".  A Muslim tends to scoff at the idea that a person needs "faith" to believe.  However, there is something "illogical" about using human logic to prove Allah.  When a Muslim criticizes the Holy Trinity as "anti-Tawheed", what I think a Muslim is doing is use his/her finite human mind to understand the infinite Allah.  In other words, he/she claims to say that the Islamic concept of Allah makes more sense because "my human mind is able to wrap around this concept better than the Trinity".

Do you see the illogicality of this?  What I see Muslims do is take Allah and make Him much much much smaller to comprehend Him rather than accept divine revelation from Allah Himself to tell us about Him.  This leads to my next point:

2.  "Indwelling of Allah" 

In Islam, Allah is infinite.  Therefore, He cannot dwell in you.  There is no "indwelling of Allah" in Islam.  Every time I have a discussion with a Muslim well-versed in his/her theology, this is outright rejected.  For Allah to "dwell" even in the universe is to make Allah smaller than infinity, which is blasphemy.  But in Christianity, "infinity" is not numerical, but qualitative.  It is a quality of Allah in that He is infinitely free and is able to do ALL things.  If He wants to dwell inside man in ALL HIS INFINITUDE, then nothing is impossible for Allah.  He can do so.  If Allah in His qualitative infinity can dwell in a finite man, Allah can reveal directly to man His will and His laws.  If Allah in His infinity cannot dwell in man, how can Allah communicate His will and His law to man?

How is it that Muhammad received the Quran?  Was he able to talk directly to Allah?  Or was it through a mediator, an angel?

3.  Eye of the Needle 

In ancient Christianity, you tend to see two definitions of "rich":  financial and intellectual.  In Matthew 11, Jesus prayed to the Father "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."  In Matthew 5, Jesus teaches "Blessed are the poor in spirit..."

You do not need to be financially rich to have the "camel through the eye of the needle" parable apply.  Many of us are very intellectual, and "puffed up in knowledge" (1 Cor. 8 ) (as I tend to be), but lack the simplicity of the heart of a child who is unconditionally loving.  Love is the central foundation of our existence.  Allah is not merely a Creator without love.  Allah Loved us into existence.  Allah is LOVE.  I am astounded this is not one of His 99 names in Islam.  It is the most basic name of Allah.  It is His very essence.  To be Creator and to be Love is two sides of the same coin.

Think of it this way.  What is the difference between "knowing" someone and "knowing about" someone.  Knowing someone means you are intimately related to this person.  Words cannot really describe that intimate loving relationship you have.  But "knowing about" someone can happen with any Joe Shmoe.  I know that Pope Francis is a 78 year old man, that he is Argentinian, that he is 5 foot whatever, that he has white hair, loves to wear white almost all the time, loves to engage in social activities particularly with the poor and underserved, that his parents were so and so, that his best friends were so and so, his favorite color is so and so, his favorite book besides the Bible is this and that, his patron saint seems to be St. Francis of Assissi, etc. etc. etc.  I can read a biography of the Pope, but that does not mean I "know" the Pope.

Contrast this idea of knowledge to how Allah "knows" us.  Indescribably, He knows each and everyone of us before we even existed, and He loves us even when we are sinners (Romans 5:8 ).  On the other hand, I am not very fond of those who continue to use logic just to describe how a belief in God makes more sense than another belief in God.  To me, that only proves to me that those who value logic in belief in Allah means they only know about Allah, but they do not really "know" Allah.  So when you try to describe Allah in terms of relationship, love, and revelation to these "logical people", it is also like a camel going through the eye of a needle.  Sometimes, one needs to fall off that camel, and maybe it might help to make sense.  It is not impossible, but it requires a bit more humility than those who can easily dismiss a belief that has been held for six centuries.

Religion is not about negotiation.  If the Trinity could be negotiated, we wouldn't have records of fighting Trinitarian heresies in the history of Christianity.  Truth is not up for negotiation, but Truth is Love, and Love wishes to incorporate us into His divine life because the essence of Love is Life-giving, as any loving significant other gives ALL his/her life to you.

"And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God." (Ephesians 3)

Faith is about Love, not a blind pursuit of belief in anything.  If Allah Loves, then Allah in His infinite self can come and dwell in You and share His infinite Life to you.  You have faith in the most powerful expressions of Love in your life: your parents, your friends, your siblings, your children, your spouse, and not least your Allah.  Allah is not Love if He cannot give His Life to you.  Begin with Love, and you might find the objective truth you are looking for.
God is The Creator of All Free Beings

Offline minasoliman

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Where are you getting your avatarsfrom, Poppy?
u serious? Is that the most important issue you have atm?
a cartoon bunny is always serious business.

More seriousier than a rainbow unicorn?

Please let's stay on topic.

Thank you!

Mina
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.