Author Topic: How can we find the objective truth in faith when we are subject to our....idk  (Read 4436 times)

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Offline Poppy

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How much are we guided by that in what religion we choose?
It influences every decision we make surely?
So then how can we find out anything objectively?

Like say for instance 'you' fall in love with a Syrian girl who happens to be Muslim and you got it bad, like you can't eat, sleep, all you can do is think about her (ok I'm using a dumb example but) if you have no religion, that might promp you to join it?

So many subtle and not so subtle things influence us all, how can we even avoid that?

Joinin any religion has nothing to do with 'God' sometimes, it's just like joining a club. But I hate even those people who say they follow God without defining what version of God it is they follow.....ykno?

It's like they made this 'God' up in their head and they like him and so they become their own judge of their behaviour and deeds.

That makes me want to vom when I chat with someone like that, total irritation.

Any helpful thoughts?

Offline FinnJames

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nafs? Self? Needs? idk

How much are we guided by that in what religion we choose?
It influences every decision we make surely?
So then how can we find out anything objectively?

Like say for instance 'you' fall in love with a Syrian girl who happens to be Muslim and you got it bad, like you can't eat, sleep, all you can do is think about her (ok I'm using a dumb example but) if you have no religion, that might promp you to join it?

So many subtle and not so subtle things influence us all, how can we even avoid that?

Joinin any religion has nothing to do with 'God' sometimes, it's just like joining a club. But I hate even those people who say they follow God without defining what version of God it is they follow.....ykno?

It's like they made this 'God' up in their head and they like him and so they become their own judge of their behaviour and deeds.

That makes me want to vom when I chat with someone like that, total irritation.

Any helpful thoughts?

Don't really have even a clue who you mean by 'someone like that'.

My only helpful thought is to stop hating people and instead open your heart/ears so you can listen to them and discover what motivates their beliefs and actions you disagree with.

Offline Poppy

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nafs? Self? Needs? idk

How much are we guided by that in what religion we choose?
It influences every decision we make surely?
So then how can we find out anything objectively?

Like say for instance 'you' fall in love with a Syrian girl who happens to be Muslim and you got it bad, like you can't eat, sleep, all you can do is think about her (ok I'm using a dumb example but) if you have no religion, that might promp you to join it?

So many subtle and not so subtle things influence us all, how can we even avoid that?

Joinin any religion has nothing to do with 'God' sometimes, it's just like joining a club. But I hate even those people who say they follow God without defining what version of God it is they follow.....ykno?

It's like they made this 'God' up in their head and they like him and so they become their own judge of their behaviour and deeds.

That makes me want to vom when I chat with someone like that, total irritation.

Any helpful thoughts?

Don't really have even a clue who you mean by 'someone like that'.

My only helpful thought is to stop hating people and instead open your heart/ears so you can listen to them and discover what motivates their beliefs and actions you disagree with.

Ok so you missed my whole entire question and focused on the last line.


Offline Severian

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Nice to see you posting again, Poppy.
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice.

Offline Poppy

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HEY!!! You too Sev

Yeah why do I always bounce back here every year idk

Offline FinnJames

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Ok so you missed my whole entire question and focused on the last line.

So what is your whole entire question? I see no one else has tried to answer it either.

Offline IoanC

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You can't avoid being subjective and that's a most objective truth. The more polished your subjectivity, the more objective truth you find.

Offline Poppy

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Ok so you missed my whole entire question and focused on the last line.

So what is your whole entire question? I see no one else has tried to answer it either.

They answered it above, mostly.

But thanks for trying again. I'm not the best one for putting questions clearly.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2015, 08:28:24 AM by Poppy »

Offline Poppy

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You can't avoid being subjective and that's a most objective truth. The more polished your subjectivity, the more objective truth you find.

I get it, thanks.

Polished = knowing what you're subject to and why?

Offline FinnJames

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Poppy, I'm glad you got a reply. Cheers!

Offline IoanC

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You can't avoid being subjective and that's a most objective truth. The more polished your subjectivity, the more objective truth you find.

I get it, thanks.

Polished = knowing what you're subject to and why?

Knowing how to not become too subjective in which case subjectivity is no longer an objective reality, but an arbitrary thing.

Offline Poppy

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Ok get it now, feel stupid, bit obvious really, never mind, such is life.....thanks for clarifying.

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Old Star Trek line, "Captain, don't believe the sensors. The ship is really....."

Your epistemological query bugged me for years...still does, so thanks for nothing!

You and I sit to eat a bowl of strawberry ice cream...I've no idea if it tastes like strawberry to you, or even to me. Darn democracy!
So getting "inside the black box" via Western taxonomy & mentality is nigh impossible.
Then there is the Orthodox approach; I thank God daily for it.
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But I hate even those people who say they follow God without defining what version of God it is they follow.....ykno?


You hate them!!!! Just because they disagree with you, you hate them ?




Joinin any religion has nothing to do with 'God' sometimes, it's just like joining a club.

Sometimes it is not about God; Like when a woman falls in luuuuuve with a Muslim man and then she converts to Islam. Or a non-Muslim man when falls in love with Muslim woman, will have to convert to Islam in order to marry her. Because as you know, in Islam, a Muslim man can marry non-Muslim women, but Muslim woman can NOT marry non-Muslim man, or she will be put to death.

Offline Poppy

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Old Star Trek line, "Captain, don't believe the sensors. The ship is really....."

Your epistemological query bugged me for years...still does, so thanks for nothing!

You and I sit to eat a bowl of strawberry ice cream...I've no idea if it tastes like strawberry to you, or even to me. Darn democracy!
So getting "inside the black box" via Western taxonomy & mentality is nigh impossible.
Then there is the Orthodox approach; I thank God daily for it.

Well, I'm a little clearer now, thanks but at least I didn't get the answer "It's a mystery"...

Offline wgw

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Hate is such a strong word.  I might be guilty of projecting my own sensibilities onto Poppy despite his implicitly Islamic perspective, but I am inclined to think he meant "these people really frustrate me," in the exaggerated, showy and affectless style of this postmodern age.  However, he might have in fact meant "I hate these people," in the sense of desiring that they might be "corrected" in some manner or otherwise made to suffer.

I daresay though we wouldn't be discussing this ooint if it were not for Poppy's Muslim persuasion.  On that point also, I would argue "Persuasion" and the meaning thereof might be worth contemplating for Poppy; especially in the rather humorous instance of Jews who describe their religion as a "persuasion" (which it is, since in fact one can convert to it or apostasize from it, but this is uncommon).
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Poppy

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Hate is such a strong word.  I might be guilty of projecting my own sensibilities onto Poppy despite his implicitly Islamic perspective, but I am inclined to think he meant "these people really frustrate me," in the exaggerated, showy and affectless style of this postmodern age.  However, he might have in fact meant "I hate these people," in the sense of desiring that they might be "corrected" in some manner or otherwise made to suffer.

I daresay though we wouldn't be discussing this ooint if it were not for Poppy's Muslim persuasion.  On that point also, I would argue "Persuasion" and the meaning thereof might be worth contemplating for Poppy; especially in the rather humorous instance of Jews who describe their religion as a "persuasion" (which it is, since in fact one can convert to it or apostasize from it, but this is uncommon).

Correct and correct.

Thank you ^_^

Offline wgw

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No problem; however I would urge you to avoid using the word hate, which is a hateful word, in every sense, unless you really mean it.  Because otherwise your dialogue looks intemperate and people will read it the wrong way based on your religion.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2015, 06:02:34 PM by wgw »
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline William T

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nafs? Self? Needs? idk

How much are we guided by that in what religion we choose?
It influences every decision we make surely?
So then how can we find out anything objectively?

Like say for instance 'you' fall in love with a Syrian girl who happens to be Muslim and you got it bad, like you can't eat, sleep, all you can do is think about her (ok I'm using a dumb example but) if you have no religion, that might promp you to join it?

So many subtle and not so subtle things influence us all, how can we even avoid that?

Joinin any religion has nothing to do with 'God' sometimes, it's just like joining a club. But I hate even those people who say they follow God without defining what version of God it is they follow.....ykno?

It's like they made this 'God' up in their head and they like him and so they become their own judge of their behaviour and deeds.

That makes me want to vom when I chat with someone like that, total irritation.

Any helpful thoughts?

The choice isn't as important as the ends that presuppose everthing, or the engagement with the option after the choice is made.

As for all that other stuff, it's nonsense to speculate on it unless it is concretely affecting your life.  If you can't taste, touch, smell, or feel the problem, most likely it's a non problem and you're probably just fiddling around in order to divert yourself from real things you ought to be focused on.  Don't be that guy.  If a "choice" comes up, just make it, who cares?  The fact that you have "options" isn't really that interesting a phenomenon as the stuff that comes before or after a decision.  Nobody likes an "existentialist".

Offline minasoliman

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Poppy,

Hi :)

Glad to see you back posting again.  Hope all is well
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Poppy

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Poppy,

Hi :)

Glad to see you back posting again.  Hope all is well

HEY MINAS!!!! Long time eh but I'm well, thanks. Just reading the old threads that you posted on for me, eons ago.

Offline Amatorus

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Pontius Pilate asked Christ, "Quid est veritas?".

What is truth? Even what we think is hard science is just as chaotic as philosophy thanks to quantum mechanics. A value can be true or false until we observe it, and even then our senses are so limited that we do not know what we are missing out on.

Offline Poppy

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So, being human, you never really know what truth is and like IoanC said, we all have to do our best at knowing how not to become too subjective. But at the time, you think that's what you're doing when you make a true decision! I suppose your decisions get better over time with practise but then you're old so, it doesn't even matter then.

I guess you just hope you don't drag your kids through too many unpolished decisions.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 12:08:10 PM by Poppy »

Offline LenInSebastopol

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Your epistemology, almost by definition and approach, will negate your objective, no?
How do you know? and how do you know THAT you know, and how do you know WHAT you know?
So, if I walk away from you, do I really get smaller? Such naive 'knowing' is tossed out the window via experience and 'belief, or maybe I DO get smaller! So how do you know I do not? Or if you play 'peek-a-boo with a toddler. Does one really disappear?

Or is it the case that you looking for The Truth? Which is another of the infinitely regressive notions.
Not knowing the gestalt of Islam, now comes Orthodoxy!
All the Western ideas of taxonomy are tossed and what is brought in is more than a 'revealed' knowledge' which all religions are based upon, but that helps along the way. Anyway, in Orthodox there is the nous which covers a lot in my experience. For me it is 'knowing without explanation in that Westerners cannot analyze', while some can call it experiential, it is beyond analytical words, or at least my vocabulary. The question, "how do you know your spouse loves you" or "how do you know you love your spouse, children" etc. A level beyond, 'how do I know what strawberry tastes to you"?
So that is where I live and play, which I do know do to time constrictions.
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Offline homedad76

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While objective truth exists the way we experience it is subjective.  The only objective truths we can actually know for certain are those that can be completely known without need for interpretation or any effect caused merely by the act of observation.  That pretty much leaves math. And some would even argue that can't truly be known objectively because we can not be objective.  As far as the objective truth in faith?  No we can't know it 100%.  It is not a tangible thing and how we read it and interpret it and apply it are ALL colored by our experiences, biases and level of understanding.  And I don't think God expects us to have all the "facts" right.  We are expected to pray, study and live our lives based on the most honest interpretation of the Faith that we can.  Luckily the Holy Spirit has inspired many before us to flesh out the scriptures and apply them more perfectly to our actual lives, but even their words must be interpreted and applied to specific situations.
"However hard I try, I find it impossible to construct anything greater than these three words, 'Love one another' —only to the end, and without exceptions: then all is justified and life is illumined, whereas otherwise it is an abomination and a burden."

—Mother Maria of Paris

Offline Poppy

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While objective truth exists the way we experience it is subjective.  The only objective truths we can actually know for certain are those that can be completely known without need for interpretation or any effect caused merely by the act of observation.  That pretty much leaves math. And some would even argue that can't truly be known objectively because we can not be objective.  As far as the objective truth in faith?  No we can't know it 100%.  It is not a tangible thing and how we read it and interpret it and apply it are ALL colored by our experiences, biases and level of understanding.  And I don't think God expects us to have all the "facts" right.  We are expected to pray, study and live our lives based on the most honest interpretation of the Faith that we can.  Luckily the Holy Spirit has inspired many before us to flesh out the scriptures and apply them more perfectly to our actual lives, but even their words must be interpreted and applied to specific situations.

What if the most honest interpretation we have say for instance, Hinduism, is wrong? There is some honest Hindu praying somewhere completely sincere but sincerely wrong in their beliefs.

And doesn't it say something in the bible about knowing God?

Offline minasoliman

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One way I approach the truth is this question:  can you achieve a sense of personal fulfillment by your own self or nature, or does true perfect fulfillment lie in something beyond this corruptible nature?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Alxandra

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Lord, those are your best servants who wish to shape their life on Your answers rather than to shape Your answers on their wishes.
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Offline LenInSebastopol

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One way I approach the truth is this question:  can you achieve a sense of personal fulfillment by your own self or nature, or does true perfect fulfillment lie in something beyond this corruptible nature?

Question of The Month nominee.
God is The Creator of All Free Beings

Offline LenInSebastopol

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While objective truth exists the way we experience it is subjective.  The only objective truths we can actually know for certain are those that can be completely known without need for interpretation or any effect caused merely by the act of observation.  That pretty much leaves math. And some would even argue that can't truly be known objectively because we can not be objective.  As far as the objective truth in faith?  No we can't know it 100%.  It is not a tangible thing and how we read it and interpret it and apply it are ALL colored by our experiences, biases and level of understanding.  And I don't think God expects us to have all the "facts" right.  We are expected to pray, study and live our lives based on the most honest interpretation of the Faith that we can.  Luckily the Holy Spirit has inspired many before us to flesh out the scriptures and apply them more perfectly to our actual lives, but even their words must be interpreted and applied to specific situations.

What if the most honest interpretation we have say for instance, Hinduism, is wrong? There is some honest Hindu praying somewhere completely sincere but sincerely wrong in their beliefs.

And doesn't it say something in the bible about knowing God?

AFAIK, somewhere in The Bible it is possible to find that Mr. Hindu can get to Heaven, as St.Paul, I believe indicates so.
I gather 'judgementalism' and The Law takes up a great deal of Islamic beliefs, practices  and views.
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Offline Poppy

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One way I approach the truth is this question:  can you achieve a sense of personal fulfillment by your own self or nature, or does true perfect fulfillment lie in something beyond this corruptible nature?

Well, def something beyond this corruptible nature, for sure.


(corruptible as in lead astray)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 01:30:21 AM by Poppy »

Offline minasoliman

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Okay...now you need to investigate how, and honestly assess the religion with this understanding in mind.  In my understanding, I find no other major religion in the world that can address this better than Christianity, if they (the other religions) can even address it at all.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 01:18:55 AM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

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I see the truth as something you learn with experience.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 01:50:39 AM by WPM »
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Offline Poppy

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One way I approach the truth is this question:  can you achieve a sense of personal fulfillment by your own self or nature, or does true perfect fulfillment lie in something beyond this corruptible nature?

Well, def something beyond this corruptible nature, for sure.


(corruptible as in lead astray)

I am finding it difficult.

That which makes us perfect or able to realise perfection comes from Allah (swt)
we cannot achieve any sense of perfection or meaningful fulfillment without obedience to Allah.

I think personal and perfect fulfillment are not easy to contemplate at all.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 05:01:49 PM by Poppy »

Offline Poppy

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And this is also heading straight back to the difference in the religions regarding the spirit and the plurality in the Qur'an which my Imam already explained to me why plurals are used in such cases.


Offline minasoliman

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One way I approach the truth is this question:  can you achieve a sense of personal fulfillment by your own self or nature, or does true perfect fulfillment lie in something beyond this corruptible nature?

Well, def something beyond this corruptible nature, for sure.


(corruptible as in lead astray)

I am finding it difficult.

That which makes us perfect or able to realise perfection comes from Allah (swt)
we cannot achieve any sense of perfection or meaningful fulfillment without obedience to Allah.

I think personal and perfect fulfillment are not easy to contemplate at all.

Once you think a little more, logically, the difficulty will go away.

Can one achieve obedience of the laws of Allah without the actual literal presence of Allah in you?

If you say "Yes", then we do not need Allah or worship Him, we only need good morals and behavior to get to heaven, and it all comes from our own corruptible nature to do these good works.

If however you say "No", then it is necessary that the grace of Allah, that is His full presence needs to dwell in you and work in you to achieve fulfillment in His laws.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline wgw

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There is of course an alternative Mina which is to descend into the black depths of metaphysical solipsism, denying the existence of everything except the self.  I think when ever we run into epistemological difficulties it is helpful to consider the alternative.
Axios and many years to you, Fr. Trenham!

Offline Poppy

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One way I approach the truth is this question:  can you achieve a sense of personal fulfillment by your own self or nature, or does true perfect fulfillment lie in something beyond this corruptible nature?

Well, def something beyond this corruptible nature, for sure.


(corruptible as in lead astray)

I am finding it difficult.

That which makes us perfect or able to realise perfection comes from Allah (swt)
we cannot achieve any sense of perfection or meaningful fulfillment without obedience to Allah.

I think personal and perfect fulfillment are not easy to contemplate at all.

Once you think a little more, logically, the difficulty will go away.

Can one achieve obedience of the laws of Allah without the actual literal presence of Allah in you?

If you say "Yes", then we do not need Allah or worship Him, we only need good morals and behavior to get to heaven, and it all comes from our own corruptible nature to do these good works.

If however you say "No", then it is necessary that the grace of Allah, that is His full presence needs to dwell in you and work in you to achieve fulfillment in His laws.

If the laws of Allah were not achievable then they wouldn't have been given to us. Everyone can make moral decisions and perform good deeds even though we are lead astray by sataan sometimes, we can ask forgiveness from Allah and hope in the grace and mercy of Allah to forgive us.

The verse 51 in Surah At-Taubah says: “Say, “Never will befall us except what Allah has decreed for us, He (is) our Protector.” And on Allah [so] let the believers put (their) trust.”

The presence of Allah inside you specifically in a certain way, is something I think Christians believe in the form of the Holy Spirit but we believe in Tawheed, the oneness of Allah with no partners or equals. So I can't exactly answer yes or no to this.



Offline Amatorus

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Where are you getting your avatarsfrom, Poppy?

Offline minasoliman

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Christianity also believes in Tawheed.  The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One God, One Name, One Holiness, One Presence, One Grace.

The Presence of Allah means also that Allah in His fullness can dwell in you.  If Allah cannot dwell in you, He cannot be present, and if He cannot be present, He cannot give us His laws, and we receive laws without the need of Allah.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 07:21:26 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Poppy

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Where are you getting your avatarsfrom, Poppy?
u serious? Is that the most important issue you have atm?

Offline Amatorus

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Where are you getting your avatarsfrom, Poppy?
u serious? Is that the most important issue you have atm?

Yes.

Offline Poppy

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Christianity also believes in Tawheed.  The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are One God, One Name, One Holiness, One Presence, One Grace.

The Presence of Allah means also that Allah in His fullnesss can dwell in you.  If Allah cannot dwell in you, He cannot be present, and if He cannot be present, He cannot give us His laws, and we receive laws without the need of Allah.

Ok so you and I know the Islamic/Christian debate around this statement and what proof texts get brought up and what points get raised and I am tired minas and intolerant of dances at the minute so I hope you get me. This is probably one of the most important core beliefs in Islam and similarly with Christianity, a real deal-breaker. So how does one get around this impasse uh? Because when all the debates are done on this, you're going to tell me it's faith isn't it.

Regarding the emboldened words/phrases, I can't understand this statement without defining what is meant by these.

Why does religion have to be so hard to negotiate at a time when people need it the most uh? I feel like that camel trying to squeeze everything through that needle eye and it's impossible. And I am not even rich so...

Offline Fabio Leite

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Before engaging the big issues, question this:

can anyone really live normal daily lives as if objective reality was unreachable? Is that a core fundamental experience, or just a fancy intellectual argument?

What is a fundamental experience in real life? Do you question the objectivity of your perceptions when crossing a street, or while choosing to eat food instead of brick and mortar?

There is a Brazilian writer, Ariano Suassuna, who used to say: "Nobody is a subjectivist when they meet a jaguar face to face".

Before tackling these issues be sure to be tackling them with your own soul and from your concrete existential experience, not with plausible words.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 01:54:42 PM by Fabio Leite »
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.

Offline Fabio Leite

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« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 01:44:27 PM by Fabio Leite »
Many Energies, 3 Persons, 2 Natures, 1 God, 1 Church, 1 Baptism, and 1 Cup. The Son begotten only from the Father, the Spirit proceeding only from the Father, Each glorifying the Other. The Son sends the Spirit, the Spirit Reveals the Son, the Father is seen in the Son. The Spirit spoke through the Prophets and Fathers and does so even today.