Author Topic: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL  (Read 2944 times)

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Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2015, 12:27:06 PM »
Well, Perennial, I'm sorry ROCOR wasn't the place for you.

There are lots of other Orthodox churches in the southern U.S., if you ever feel like giving it another try.

I second it this! you do know that Nestorianism was and is a heresey in the history of the church. Please consider looking into Goarch, The Jerusalem Patriarchate and The Antiochian patriarchate or even the OCA if need be. May I ask what did you not like about ROCOR? It not perfect but there is no perfection on earth.

Offline Perennial1

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Re: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL
« Reply #46 on: August 28, 2015, 06:09:38 AM »
Well, Perennial, I'm sorry ROCOR wasn't the place for you.

There are lots of other Orthodox churches in the southern U.S., if you ever feel like giving it another try.

I second it this! you do know that Nestorianism was and is a heresey in the history of the church. Please consider looking into Goarch, The Jerusalem Patriarchate and The Antiochian patriarchate or even the OCA if need be. May I ask what did you not like about ROCOR? It not perfect but there is no perfection on earth.

I have a problem with the Orthodox Church's view of Jesus which denies that there is any human person or human entity in him.

Offline LBK

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Re: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL
« Reply #47 on: August 28, 2015, 06:13:51 AM »
I have a problem with the Orthodox Church's view of Jesus which denies that there is any human person or human entity in him.

This is NOT what Orthodoxy teaches. Christ is God and Man. Have you forgotten this from the Creed?

who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and became Man;
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline wgw

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Re: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL
« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2015, 08:56:16 AM »
Well, Perennial, I'm sorry ROCOR wasn't the place for you.

There are lots of other Orthodox churches in the southern U.S., if you ever feel like giving it another try.

I second it this! you do know that Nestorianism was and is a heresey in the history of the church. Please consider looking into Goarch, The Jerusalem Patriarchate and The Antiochian patriarchate or even the OCA if need be. May I ask what did you not like about ROCOR? It not perfect but there is no perfection on earth.

I have a problem with the Orthodox Church's view of Jesus which denies that there is any human person or human entity in him.

I believe you are confusing us with the Gnostics.  They are the ones who taught Jesus was entirely divine and without human nature.  All Orthodox agree that Jesus is perfectly human and perfectly divine at the same time.  For that matter, so do the Assyrians, and the Assyrians do not believe that Jesus consists of a separate human and divine person in a union of will; that was Theodore of Mopsuestia or Diodore of Tarsus, I cant recall, bordering on adoptionism, and also an implication of full blown Nestorianism, which the Assyrians do not practice, as refuted by St. Cyril, derived from referring to the Virgin Mary as Christotokos.

The Oriental Orthodox believe that Jesus has one incarnate nature of the Word, perfectly human and perfectly divine, without confusion, change or separation.  The Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics and in theory most Protestants believe Jesus has a human and a divine nature in one hypostasis.  The Assyrians believe Jesus has a human qnuma and a divine qnuma in one prosopa, in somesuch - either way  it was close enough for them to reach an ecumenical agreement with the Vatican confessing a common Christology (which the Vatican also reached with the OO, ironic given Pope Leo's authorship of the Tome which essentially caused the Great Schism).
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL
« Reply #49 on: August 28, 2015, 01:48:46 PM »
I have a problem with the Orthodox Church's view of Jesus which denies that there is any human person or human entity in him.

This is NOT what Orthodoxy teaches. Christ is God and Man. Have you forgotten this from the Creed?

who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and became Man;

Perennial1's comment was a little more specific than your response. 

Offline Severian

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Re: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL
« Reply #50 on: August 28, 2015, 06:08:00 PM »
I have a problem with the Orthodox Church's view of Jesus which denies that there is any human person or human entity in him.

This is NOT what Orthodoxy teaches. Christ is God and Man. Have you forgotten this from the Creed?

who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and became Man;
Christ is a single Divine person who is perfect God and perfect man, yes. But He does not have a distinct human entity or person united to Him, that would be Nestorianism.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 06:08:11 PM by Severian »
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

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Offline biro

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Re: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL
« Reply #51 on: August 28, 2015, 06:19:01 PM »
Perennial, if you don't mind, were you actually in the church before - were you baptized and did you leave, or have you never been a regular member of a church before? Did you attend because you had a beginning interest, or were you brought up in church?

I ask because you seem to be claiming the Orthodox teach some things they never really did in the first place. It would be a shame if you left the church over some straw man argument you heard from somebody else.

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Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL
« Reply #52 on: August 28, 2015, 06:22:05 PM »
I have a problem with the Orthodox Church's view of Jesus which denies that there is any human person or human entity in him.

This is NOT what Orthodoxy teaches. Christ is God and Man. Have you forgotten this from the Creed?

who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and became Man;
Christ is a single Divine person who is perfect God and perfect man, yes. But He does not have a distinct human entity or person united to Him, that would be Nestorianism.
Wouldn't that be adoptionism?
God bless!

Offline Severian

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Re: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL
« Reply #53 on: August 28, 2015, 11:36:16 PM »
I have a problem with the Orthodox Church's view of Jesus which denies that there is any human person or human entity in him.

This is NOT what Orthodoxy teaches. Christ is God and Man. Have you forgotten this from the Creed?

who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and became Man;
Christ is a single Divine person who is perfect God and perfect man, yes. But He does not have a distinct human entity or person united to Him, that would be Nestorianism.
Wouldn't that be adoptionism?
It could be both, tbh. But for Nestorius and his partisans, Christ is two hypostases.
"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die [...] These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." -The Lord Jesus Christ

No longer active on OC.net. Please pray for me and forgive any harm I might have caused by my ignorance and malice.

Offline Perennial1

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Re: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL
« Reply #54 on: August 29, 2015, 07:38:02 AM »
I have a problem with the Orthodox Church's view of Jesus which denies that there is any human person or human entity in him.

This is NOT what Orthodoxy teaches. Christ is God and Man. Have you forgotten this from the Creed?

who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and became Man;

You have a lot to learn my friend. Orthodoxy teaches that the Logos ALONE is the person and entity and that there is no human person or entity... only human nature.

I will respond to the rest of the comments later...

Offline Perennial1

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Re: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL
« Reply #55 on: August 29, 2015, 08:15:37 AM »
Well, Perennial, I'm sorry ROCOR wasn't the place for you.

There are lots of other Orthodox churches in the southern U.S., if you ever feel like giving it another try.

I second it this! you do know that Nestorianism was and is a heresey in the history of the church. Please consider looking into Goarch, The Jerusalem Patriarchate and The Antiochian patriarchate or even the OCA if need be. May I ask what did you not like about ROCOR? It not perfect but there is no perfection on earth.

I have a problem with the Orthodox Church's view of Jesus which denies that there is any human person or human entity in him.

I believe you are confusing us with the Gnostics.  They are the ones who taught Jesus was entirely divine and without human nature.  All Orthodox agree that Jesus is perfectly human and perfectly divine at the same time.  For that matter, so do the Assyrians, and the Assyrians do not believe that Jesus consists of a separate human and divine person in a union of will; that was Theodore of Mopsuestia or Diodore of Tarsus, I cant recall, bordering on adoptionism, and also an implication of full blown Nestorianism, which the Assyrians do not practice, as refuted by St. Cyril, derived from referring to the Virgin Mary as Christotokos.

The Oriental Orthodox believe that Jesus has one incarnate nature of the Word, perfectly human and perfectly divine, without confusion, change or separation.  The Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics and in theory most Protestants believe Jesus has a human and a divine nature in one hypostasis.  The Assyrians believe Jesus has a human qnuma and a divine qnuma in one prosopa, in somesuch - either way  it was close enough for them to reach an ecumenical agreement with the Vatican confessing a common Christology (which the Vatican also reached with the OO, ironic given Pope Leo's authorship of the Tome which essentially caused the Great Schism).

Church of the East believes that there is human person and human entity in Jesus. Everyone else does not. Big difference!

Offline Perennial1

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Re: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL
« Reply #56 on: August 29, 2015, 08:20:09 AM »
I have a problem with the Orthodox Church's view of Jesus which denies that there is any human person or human entity in him.

This is NOT what Orthodoxy teaches. Christ is God and Man. Have you forgotten this from the Creed?

who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and became Man;

Really? You should do more research before you chastise me for not knowing the faith. Take a look at these quotes. ALL OF THE MAJOR CHURCHES (except Church of the East) believes that Jesus Christ does NOT have any human person or any human entity.

Take a look at these quotes that I have personally taken the time to research and type out for your benefit. These are from Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Protestant sources. (I added the Protestant to show that this is agreed upon by all.)

ORTHODOXY

John Meyendorff: “Post-Chalcedonian Christology... rejects the Nestorian view that He was a human hypostasis, or person.” (Byzantine Theology, p. 154)

John Meyendorff: "The hypostatic union implies also that the Logos made humanity His own in its totality; thus the Second Person of the Trinity was indeed the subject, or agent, of the human experiences, or acts, of Jesus. The controversy between Cyril of Alexandra and Nestorius concerning the term Theotokos, applied to the Virgin Mary, concerned essentially this very problem. Was there, in Jesus, a human person whose mother could have been Mary? Cyril's answer- emphatically negative -was, in fact, a Christological option of great importance.” (Byzantine Theology, p. 154)

ROMAN CATHOLIC

Thomas Aquinas:

"the Divine Person by His union hindered the human nature from having its personality." (Summa Theologica 3:4:2)

The Catholic Encyclopedia:

“...the Divine Hypostasis (or Person, or Word, or Logos) appropriates to Itself human nature, and takes in every respect the place of the human person. In this way, the human nature of Christ, though not a human person, loses nothing of the perfection of the perfect man; for the Divine Person supplies the place of the human.” (“Incarnation,” 1910)

The Catholic Encyclopedia:

“Theologians agree that in the Hypostatic Union the immediate reason why the Sacred Humanity, though complete and individual, is not a person is that it is not a subsistence, not per se seorsum subsistens. (“Incarnation,” 1910)

MAGISTERIAL PROTESTANTISM

Charles Hodge: “Hence it follows that the human nature of Christ, separately considered, is impersonal. To this, indeed, it is objected that intelligence and will constitute personality, and as these belong to Christ’s human nature personality cannot be denied to it. A person, however, is a suppositum intelligens, but the human nature of Christ is not a suppositum or subsistence. To personality both rational substance and distinct subsistence are essential. The latter the human nature of Christ never possessed. The Son of God did not unite Himself with a human person, but with a human nature. The proof of this is that Christ is but one person. The possibility of such a union cannot rationally be denied. ... Human nature, therefore, although endowed with intelligence and will, may be, and in fact is, in the person of Christ impersonal. (Systematic Theology 3:3)

Louis Berkoff:

Christ has a human nature, but He is not a human person. The Person of the Mediator is the unchangeable Son of God. In the incarnation He did not change into a human person; neither did He adopt a human person. He simply assumed, in addition to His divine nature, a human nature, which did not develop into an independent personality, but became personal in the Person of the Son of God. (Summary of Christian Doctrine 4:14)

Augustus Hopkins Strong:

...the Logos takes into union with himself, not an individual man with already developed personality but human nature which has had no separate existence before its union with the divine. Christ’s human nature is impersonal, in the sense that it attains self-consciousness and self-determination only in the personality of the God-man. ... Since the human nature of Christ has not and never had a separate subsistence, it is impersonal, and in the God-man the Logos furnishes the principle of personality. It is equally important to observe that self-consciousness and self-determination do not belong to nature as such but only to personality. (Systematic Theology 2:6:2:3)

John Gill:

...the human nature of Christ never had a subsistence of itself; but from the moment of its conception, formation, and creation, it subsisted in the Person of the Son of God: and hence the human nature of Christ is not a person; a person is that which subsists of itself: but that the human nature of Christ never did; therefore, 2d1c. It was a nature, and not a person, that Christ assumed so early as at its conception; it is called "the holy Thing", and not a person.

The Nestorians asserted the human nature of Christ to be a person...

...if the human nature of Christ was a person of itself, what it did and suffered could have been of no avail, nor of any benefit to any other but itself.” (I forgot to write down the source for this last one, sorry...)

Offline Perennial1

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Re: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL
« Reply #57 on: August 29, 2015, 08:21:20 AM »
I ask because you seem to be claiming the Orthodox teach some things they never really did in the first place. It would be a shame if you left the church over some straw man argument you heard from somebody else.

Really? Read the above post. You need to do more research on your own faith before you accuse me.

Offline LBK

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Re: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL
« Reply #58 on: August 29, 2015, 08:29:52 AM »
If you wish to convert to nestorianism, that's your choice. If you're looking to convert anyone here to nestorianism, or to assert nestorianism is right and Orthodoxy is wrong, you're wasting your time and effort.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Perennial1

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Re: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL
« Reply #59 on: August 29, 2015, 08:34:10 AM »
If you wish to convert to nestorianism, that's your choice. If you're looking to convert anyone here to nestorianism, or to assert nestorianism is right and Orthodoxy is wrong, you're wasting your time and effort.

I'm not. I am just trying to get you to know what the religion teaches on this point because you clearly did not.

Offline LBK

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Re: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL
« Reply #60 on: August 29, 2015, 08:41:55 AM »
If you wish to convert to nestorianism, that's your choice. If you're looking to convert anyone here to nestorianism, or to assert nestorianism is right and Orthodoxy is wrong, you're wasting your time and effort.

I'm not. I am just trying to get you to know what the religion teaches on this point because you clearly did not.

I know what Orthodoxy teaches on this and other matters. I do not need you to reinvent the wheel for me.

It's a shame you're leaving the Church that Christ established for a distorted faith. You can change your mind about this, of course, it's not too late.
Am I posting? Or is it Schroedinger's Cat?

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL
« Reply #61 on: August 29, 2015, 11:17:28 AM »
If you wish to convert to nestorianism, that's your choice. If you're looking to convert anyone here to nestorianism, or to assert nestorianism is right and Orthodoxy is wrong, you're wasting your time and effort.

I'm not. I am just trying to get you to know what the religion teaches on this point because you clearly did not.

I know what Orthodoxy teaches on this and other matters. I do not need you to reinvent the wheel for me.

It's a shame you're leaving the Church that Christ established for a distorted faith. You can change your mind about this, of course, it's not too late.

He claimed in an early post that he was leaving ROCOR for "Joel Osteen".  I'd say "Nestorianism" is pretty good, all things considered. 

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL
« Reply #62 on: August 29, 2015, 11:18:15 AM »
Church of the East believes that there is human person and human entity in Jesus. Everyone else does not. Big difference!

Yup.

Offline TheTrisagion

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Re: Faith NOT Based on Bible AT ALL
« Reply #63 on: August 29, 2015, 03:09:21 PM »
Well, Perennial, I'm sorry ROCOR wasn't the place for you.

There are lots of other Orthodox churches in the southern U.S., if you ever feel like giving it another try.

I second it this! you do know that Nestorianism was and is a heresey in the history of the church. Please consider looking into Goarch, The Jerusalem Patriarchate and The Antiochian patriarchate or even the OCA if need be. May I ask what did you not like about ROCOR? It not perfect but there is no perfection on earth.

I have a problem with the Orthodox Church's view of Jesus which denies that there is any human person or human entity in him.

I believe you are confusing us with the Gnostics.  They are the ones who taught Jesus was entirely divine and without human nature.  All Orthodox agree that Jesus is perfectly human and perfectly divine at the same time.  For that matter, so do the Assyrians, and the Assyrians do not believe that Jesus consists of a separate human and divine person in a union of will; that was Theodore of Mopsuestia or Diodore of Tarsus, I cant recall, bordering on adoptionism, and also an implication of full blown Nestorianism, which the Assyrians do not practice, as refuted by St. Cyril, derived from referring to the Virgin Mary as Christotokos.

The Oriental Orthodox believe that Jesus has one incarnate nature of the Word, perfectly human and perfectly divine, without confusion, change or separation.  The Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics and in theory most Protestants believe Jesus has a human and a divine nature in one hypostasis.  The Assyrians believe Jesus has a human qnuma and a divine qnuma in one prosopa, in somesuch - either way  it was close enough for them to reach an ecumenical agreement with the Vatican confessing a common Christology (which the Vatican also reached with the OO, ironic given Pope Leo's authorship of the Tome which essentially caused the Great Schism).

Church of the East believes that there is human person and human entity in Jesus. Everyone else does not. Big difference!
I don't know much about the Church of the East. What does it mean to say there is a human entity "in" Jesus? Obviously, we believe that Christ is God Incarnate, i.e. that God took on humanity and became fully human while still being fully God. To say that there is a human person "in" Jesus seems to be saying something different, but I'm not exactly sure what is meant by it. Can you explain?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 03:09:49 PM by TheTrisagion »
God bless!