Author Topic: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock  (Read 9169 times)

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Offline Maria

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2015, 07:06:29 PM »

Why, are you guys pro Muslims and anti Jew or something?

I would rather have Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount than Mosques any time.

Are you anti-Christian or something? 

The Jews lost the Temple, the priesthood, and the kingdom because they rejected Christ.  Islam is wrong and I'd be fine without a mosque on the Temple Mount.  But that doesn't mean I want or support a Jewish Temple there.  They had their chance in AD 33.

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Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2015, 08:01:39 PM »

Why, are you guys pro Muslims and anti Jew or something?

I would rather have Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount than Mosques any time.

Are you anti-Christian or something? 

The Jews lost the Temple, the priesthood, and the kingdom because they rejected Christ.  Islam is wrong and I'd be fine without a mosque on the Temple Mount.  But that doesn't mean I want or support a Jewish Temple there.  They had their chance in AD 33.
Muslims have no place in Jerusalem,let alone claiming the Temple Mount as their own.

I'm no fan of the muslims but are you a evangelical zionist? there are mideast christians living in refuge camps because of israeli occupation, there are jewish fundamentalist who do price tag attacks on Orthodox Christians in the region and there is Orthodox christians who are Palestinan who had been attacked by crazy settlers. You do know ths right?

Offline wgw

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2015, 09:57:30 PM »
Out of curiosity did the early church ever bother to build a church atop the temple mount, or was it voewed as an irrelevant and unworthy site?
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Offline Luke

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2015, 10:30:03 PM »
^I know for some time the early  Church worried about  "Church" matters.  The temple mount itself was not that important to them.

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2015, 10:36:22 PM »
Muslims have no place in Jerusalem,let alone claiming the Temple Mount as their own.

I'm not going to argue whether Muslims have a place in Jerusalem or not, but the Jews lost their rights to the Temple, the priesthood, and the kingdom. 
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Offline andrewlya

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #50 on: August 23, 2015, 12:46:19 PM »
Out of curiosity did the early church ever bother to build a church atop the temple mount, or was it voewed as an irrelevant and unworthy site?
A great question!
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #51 on: August 23, 2015, 12:47:18 PM »
Muslims have no place in Jerusalem,let alone claiming the Temple Mount as their own.

I'm not going to argue whether Muslims have a place in Jerusalem or not, but the Jews lost their rights to the Temple, the priesthood, and the kingdom.
How about the 3rd Temple then?
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #52 on: August 23, 2015, 12:58:57 PM »
Out of curiosity did the early church ever bother to build a church atop the temple mount, or was it voewed as an irrelevant and unworthy site?

They may have wanted to build a church there, but doing so would have provoked a major scuffle with the Jews who would have seen such a project as an affront and as blasphemous. There had already been several Jewish revolts against the Roman (and later the Byzantine) Empire, and building a church on the Temple Mount would likely have provoked even more uprisings. This could have been the reason why they decided not to do so. The Muslims apparently had no such scruples (although some Jews, who had very bad feelings toward Byzantium, actually welcomed the Muslims at first, similar to what happened with some of the Copts in Egypt).

The Dome of the Rock itself was briefly turned into a church during the Crusades, when it was turned over to the Augustinians.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 12:59:38 PM by Minnesotan »
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #53 on: August 23, 2015, 01:10:14 PM »
Muslims have no place in Jerusalem,let alone claiming the Temple Mount as their own.

I'm not going to argue whether Muslims have a place in Jerusalem or not, but the Jews lost their rights to the Temple, the priesthood, and the kingdom.
How about the 3rd Temple then?

Ask Jesus.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #54 on: August 23, 2015, 01:14:41 PM »
Hi all,
Is Jordan in charge of Dome of the Rock & Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem?
No. It's a local Muslim authority that is given the direct control, but that control is sometimes violated by Israeli forces.
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If the Jews were to remove those two buildings off Jerusalem and build their 3rd Temple, would other Muslim countries invade Israel in that case?
If the Israelis destroyed all the Christian churches, including the Holy Sepulchre and Church of the Nativity, like some of their radicals want, what would Christian countries do?

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After all, the Dome of the Rock & Al-Aqsa Mosque are built in the center of the Temple Mount, the site where, it is believed, the Jewish First Temple and Second Temple had stood.
It's questioned sometimes whether the First and Second Temple and Aqsa mosque were all built on the same place, Andrew. The Temple mount is a big location.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 01:15:45 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #55 on: August 23, 2015, 01:22:07 PM »
Muslims have no place in Jerusalem,let alone claiming the Temple Mount as their own.
Of course Muslims have "a place" in Jerusalem, since they make up about 25% of the city. Otherwise you would be advocating ethnic cleansing. And you wouldn't do that, would you?
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 01:22:34 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #56 on: August 23, 2015, 01:24:23 PM »
Out of curiosity did the early church ever bother to build a church atop the temple mount, or was it voewed as an irrelevant and unworthy site?
I think both.
There was a view that it was an unworthy site, I think. And eventually the Byzantines did build one or two chapels or churches there. But I don't think that they were big.

It would have been neat to see Byzantine Jerusalem. Even a view of modern Istanbul gives a hazy image of Constantinople's past glory.

Notice the two domes on left and right and take away the minarets and imagine back in 1400 AD:

(The Mavi Marmara is the ship in the middle being welcomed back from its tragic voyage.)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 01:29:40 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #57 on: August 23, 2015, 02:01:57 PM »
The destruction of the Temple, its empty/unrebuilt status, sack of Jerusalem, renaming of the city, etc. seemed to be viewed--at least for a time and among some--as a continuing witness that God was with the Church and no longer with the Jews. St. John is obviously controversial on these kind of topics, but fwiw:

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Even today, if you go into Jerusalem, you will see the bare foundation, if you ask why this is so, you will hear no explanation other than the one I gave [God being with Christians and not the Jews]. We are all witnesses to this, for it happened not long ago but in our own time [he spoke of several attempts at rebuilding the temple, including in the mid-4th century]. Consider how conspicuous our victory is. This did not happen in the times of the good emperors; no one can say that the Christians came and prevented the work from being finished. It happened at a time when our religion was subject to persecution, when all our lives were in danger, when every man was afraid to speak, when paganism flourished [meaning the Emperor Julian, and possibly earlier emperors]. Some of the faithful hid in their homes, others fled the marketplaces and moved to the deserts. That is when these events occurred. So the Jews have no excuse left to them for their impudence.

-- St. John Chrysostom, Homilies Against the Jews, 5.11.10

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Come now, and let me give you abundant proof that the temple will not be rebuilt and that the Jews will not return to their former way of life. In this way you will come to a clearer understanding of what the Apostles taught, and the Jews will be all the more convicted of acting in a godless way. As witness I shall produce not an angel, not an archangel, but the very Master of the whole world, our Lord Jesus Christ. When he came into Jerusalem and saw the temple, he said: "Jerusalem will be trodden down by many nations, until the times of many nations be fulfilled."

By this he meant the years to come until the consummation of the world. And again, speaking to his disciples about the temple, he made the threat that a stone would not remain upon a stone in that place until the time when it be destroyed. His threat was a prediction that the temple would come to a final devastation and completely disappear.

But the Jew totally rejects this testimony. He refuses to admit what Christ said. What does the Jew say? "The man who said this is my foe. I crucified him. so how am I to accept his testimony?" But this is the marvel of it. You Jews did crucify him. But after he died on the cross, he then destroyed your city; it was then that he dispersed your people; it was then that he scattered your nation over the face of the earth. In doing this, he teaches us that he is risen, alive, and in heaven.

Because you were not willing to recognize his power through his benefactions, he taught you by his punishment and vengeance that no one can struggle with or prevail against his might and strength. But even so, you do not believe in him, you do not recognize that he is God and Master of all the world, but you consider him just another man.

-- St. John Chrysostom, Homilies Against the Jews, 5.1.6-8

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He also predicted that the temple would be destroyed, that Jerusalem would be captured, and that the city would no longer be the city of the Jews as it had been in the past.

If he was wrong and deceived you in all those other predictions, and they did not come true, then refuse to believe what he foretold of Jerusalem and the temple. But you do see those other predictions gloriously fulfilled and their truth waxing stronger with each passing day. The gates of hell did not prevail against the Church, after so many years the story of what that woman did is still told all over the world, and men who believed in him did pay greater veneration to him than to their own parents, wives, and children. If this is true, tell me, why do you reject this one prediction about the temple, especially since the testimony of time puts the gag of silence on your shameless words?

Suppose a mere ten, twenty, thirty, or fifty years were to have passed since the capture of Jerusalem. Even then you would have absolutely no right to show your impudence by rejecting his prediction, but if you wished to be obstinate, you might have had some pretext for protest left to you. But not only fifty years but many more than one, two, or three centuries have passed since Jerusalem was captured. And never has there been seen a single trace or shadow of the change for which you are waiting. Why, then, are you so rash and foolish as to keep up your shameless objections?

-- St. John Chrysostom, Homilies Against the Jews, 5.3.13-15
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 02:04:54 PM by Justin Kissel »
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Offline Maria

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #58 on: August 23, 2015, 02:21:28 PM »
Justin, could the current Temple Mount that the Muslims now control be the remains of this mid-4th century attempt to rebuild the Temple at Jerusalem?
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Asteriktos

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #59 on: August 23, 2015, 02:35:37 PM »
I'm not sure; St. John says the place was "bare," but some of the work, including the land/foundation work, were probably left. Here is a fuller description, which came right before the first quote I posted in the last post:

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But what I am going to tell you is clear and obvious even to the very young. For it did not happen in the time of Hadrian or Constantine, but during our own lifetime, in the reign of the Emperor of twenty years ago. Julian, who surpassed all the emperors in irreligion, invited the Jews to sacrifice to idols in an attempt to drag them to Iris own level of ungodliness. He used their old way of sacrifice as an excuse and said: "In the days of your ancestors, God  was worshipped in this way."

They refused his invitation, but, at that time, they did admit to the very things I just lately proved to you, namely, that they were not allowed to offer their sacrifices outside Jerusalem. Their answer was that those who offered any sacrifice whatsoever in a foreign land were violating the Law. So they said to the Emperor: "If you wish to see us offer sacrifices, give us back Jerusalem, rebuild the temple, show us the holy of holies, restore the altar, and we will offer sacrifices again just as we did before."

These abominable and shameless men had the impudence to ask these firings from an impious pagan and to invite him to rebuild their sanctuary with his polluted hands. They failed to see that they were attempting the impossible. They did not realize that if human hands had put an end to those things, then  human hands could get them back for them. But it was God who destroyed their city, and no human power could ever change what God had decreed. "For what God, the Holy One, has planned who shall dissipate? His hand is stretched out; who will turn it back?" What God has reared up and wishes to remain, no man can tear down. In the same way, what he has destroyed and wishes to stay destroyed, no man can rebuild.

I grant you that the Emperor did give you Jews back your temple and did build you an altar, just as you foolishly suspected he would. But he could not send down to you the heavenly fire from on high, could he? Yet if you could not have this fire, your sacrifice had to be an abomination and unclean. This is why the sons of  Aaron perished; they brought ill a foreign fire.

Nonetheless, these Jews, who were blind to all things, called on the Emperor for help and begged him to aid them in undertaking to rebuild the temple. The Emperor, for his part, spared no expense, sent engineers from all over the empire to oversee the work, summoned craftsmen from every land; he left nothing undone, nothing untried. He overlooked nothing but worked quietly and a little at a time to bring the Jews to offer sacrifice; in this way he expected that it would be easy for them to go from sacrifice to the worship of idols. At the same time, in his mad folly, he was hoping to cancel out the sentence passed by Christ which forbade the rebuilding of the temple. But tie who catches the wise in their craftiness straightway made clear to him by His action that the decrees of God are mightier than any man's and that works get their strength from the word of God.

They started to work in earnest on that forbidden task, they removed a great mound of earth and began to lay bare the foundations. They were just about to start building when suddenly fire leaped forth from the foundations and completely consumed not only a great number of the workmen but even the stones piled up there to support the structure. This put a stop to the untimely obstinacy of those who had undertaken the project. Many of the Jews, too, who had seen what had happened, were astonished and struck with shame. The Emperor Julian had been madly eager to finish the work. But when he heard what had happened, he was afraid that, if he went on with it, he might call down the fire on his  own head. So he and the whole Jewish people withdrew in defeat.

Even today, if you go into Jerusalem, you will see the bare foundation, if you ask why this is so, you will hear no explanation other than the one I gave...

-- St. John Chrysostom, Homilies Against the Jews, 5.11.4-10
"The priest who preaches foul doctrine shall be reborn as a fungus." - Buddhist proverb

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #60 on: August 23, 2015, 05:48:58 PM »
Quote
They started to work in earnest on that forbidden task, they removed a great mound of earth and began to lay bare the foundations. They were just about to start building when suddenly fire leaped forth from the foundations and completely consumed not only a great number of the workmen but even the stones piled up there to support the structure. This put a stop to the untimely obstinacy of those who had undertaken the project. Many of the Jews, too, who had seen what had happened, were astonished and struck with shame. The Emperor Julian had been madly eager to finish the work. But when he heard what had happened, he was afraid that, if he went on with it, he might call down the fire on his  own head. So he and the whole Jewish people withdrew in defeat.

Even today, if you go into Jerusalem, you will see the bare foundation, if you ask why this is so, you will hear no explanation other than the one I gave...

-- St. John Chrysostom, Homilies Against the Jews, 5.11.4-10

Incredible.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #61 on: August 23, 2015, 05:50:04 PM »
Obviously, if the Temple at Jerusalem is built successfully, then that means we are in the last days of the AntiChrist.

Let him who has ears, hear.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2015, 05:50:44 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2015, 07:45:18 PM »
Obviously, if the Temple at Jerusalem is built successfully, then that means we are in the last days of the AntiChrist.

Let him who has ears, hear.

To him who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone which no one knows except him who receives it.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2015, 08:18:55 PM »
Obviously, if the Temple at Jerusalem is built successfully, then that means we are in the last days of the AntiChrist.

Let him who has ears, hear.

To him who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, with a new name written on the stone which no one knows except him who receives it.

 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #64 on: August 24, 2015, 09:03:09 AM »

Why, are you guys pro Muslims and anti Jew or something?

I would rather have Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount than Mosques any time.
If the Muslims want to voluntarily turn it over to the Jews to allow them to build a temple, then I say go for it, but I am not going to advocate one ounce of blood being spilled for that spot. There has been enough bloodshed in that region already that we don't need to encourage more just so the Jews can build a temple.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 09:03:26 AM by TheTrisagion »
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #65 on: August 24, 2015, 05:26:32 PM »
Hi all,
Is Jordan in charge of Dome of the Rock & Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem?
No. It's a local Muslim authority that is given the direct control, but that control is sometimes violated by Israeli forces.
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If the Jews were to remove those two buildings off Jerusalem and build their 3rd Temple, would other Muslim countries invade Israel in that case?
If the Israelis destroyed all the Christian churches, including the Holy Sepulchre and Church of the Nativity, like some of their radicals want, what would Christian countries do?
To be fair, I don't think they would do much, who would actually stick up for Christians militarily nowadays? Let's be realistic.
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #66 on: August 24, 2015, 05:27:39 PM »
Muslims have no place in Jerusalem,let alone claiming the Temple Mount as their own.
Of course Muslims have "a place" in Jerusalem, since they make up about 25% of the city. Otherwise you would be advocating ethnic cleansing. And you wouldn't do that, would you?
No, but I would like to see the Dome of the Rock along with the Mosque to go.
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #67 on: August 24, 2015, 06:39:24 PM »
Muslims have no place in Jerusalem,let alone claiming the Temple Mount as their own.
Of course Muslims have "a place" in Jerusalem, since they make up about 25% of the city. Otherwise you would be advocating ethnic cleansing. And you wouldn't do that, would you?
No, but I would like to see the Dome of the Rock along with the Mosque to go.

If you take out the Islamic beliefs of its normal attendants, you are just left with an Abrahamic house of worship that was made by Byzantine architects. So I don't see why it matters whether this building is there, except that so long as it has adherents it serves their need and that it also has value as an architectural monument. Anyway Orthodoxy takes a cynical attitude toward building a Third Temple there in its place.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2015, 06:40:59 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline rakovsky

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #68 on: August 24, 2015, 06:42:08 PM »
Hi all,
Is Jordan in charge of Dome of the Rock & Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem?
No. It's a local Muslim authority that is given the direct control, but that control is sometimes violated by Israeli forces.
Quote
If the Jews were to remove those two buildings off Jerusalem and build their 3rd Temple, would other Muslim countries invade Israel in that case?
If the Israelis destroyed all the Christian churches, including the Holy Sepulchre and Church of the Nativity, like some of their radicals want, what would Christian countries do?
To be fair, I don't think they would do much, who would actually stick up for Christians militarily nowadays? Let's be realistic.
Personally I think it would make a huge difference if the Israelis did that for several geopolitical reasons, which is a partial explanation.
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #69 on: August 25, 2015, 03:19:15 AM »
Muslims have no place in Jerusalem,let alone claiming the Temple Mount as their own.

I'm not going to argue whether Muslims have a place in Jerusalem or not, but the Jews lost their rights to the Temple, the priesthood, and the kingdom.

From the standpoint of Christian theology, yes.  However, were it not for the Islamic presence on the Temple Mount, or another religion being historically present there, I would not object to the Jews attempting at their own risk to rebuild it.  However one can make a legal case that the Muslims have constructive possession of the Temple Mount because Jewish efforts to rebuild the temple under Emperor Julian were abandoned due to the accidental ignition of residual pockets of natural gas in the temple mount.  Thus the Jews abandoned the site during a period when they had lawful access to it, thus the later Islamic works which were perhaps Providentially not disturbed by erupting fireballs have a right to be there.

Now that said, most of the mount is undeveloped, and if the Zionists could be reasonable, there is easily enough space to accommodate a replica of the First or initial pre Herodian Second Temple next to the Islamic shrine and mosque (the Dome of the Rock is a shrine rather than a mosque per se, the mosque being the separate and rather less impressive Al Aqsa Mosque).   That said some lovely natural gardens and cypress trees would be lost as a result of this,

However, because of the current political situation, such actions would be provocative and should be avoided.  What is more, the majority of Jews are either Orthodox Jews who believe the Temple cannot be rebuilt until the Messiah comes (even for those who support the Kingdom of Israel, for most of them, rebuilding the Temple is a Bridge Too Far [awesome film, btw]), or alternately are members of denominations which have expressed an opposition to the resumption of the animal sacrifices.

The minority of Jews and the fundamentalist Christians who support them who want to do this are reckless, irresponsible heretics according to Orthodox Judaism and from the standpoint of the welfare of the Jewish people, and from our Orthodox perspective, diabolically influenced infidels being lured by Satan into causing a needless war which may not in fact have anything at all to do with Christian eschatology.

The fundamentalist commentators of my KJV Study Bible (mainly fundamentalist Baptists and Calvinists, but with a lone Methodist oddly) argue that "The energy that keeps God's prophetic clock ticking is the Jewish nation" (commenting on Ez 37:11-14).  The reconstruction is mentioned as  in a course of events that naturally includes the Tribulation and other Darbyist-Chiliast blasphemy. The commentators go on to suggest that the restored animal sacrifices in the temple, described in a comment on 40:38, will be "memorials tomthe work of Christ, just as the Old Testament sacrifices had their status as precursors of Christ's work."

This, from an Orthodox standpoint, is ecclesiological and sacramental blasphemy of the first order.  The foolish authors of that commentary deny the Church's status as Israel, which renders a huge chunk of OT prophecies about the Church which came to pass as moot, and then ignore the Lord's own word that the Eucharist is a "Memorial of Me" which even they accept about it, as a minimum, daring to suggest that while what they call the Lord's Supper is a valid Memorial, a more perfect Memorial will come during Christ's post-tribulation millennial kingdom in the form of restored animal sacrifices.  Thus the entire corpus of ecclesiological, sacramental and liturgical theology held by the Church from the time of the Apostles at least until the Radical Reformation is discarded entirely in favor of a new, extreme and alien theology that explicitly denies (elsewhere in the same commentary) the status of the Church as the Kingdom of God, in favor of literally following all of Ezekiel's prophecies about the Jews as describing future events.

To this a liberal Christian might counter that Ezekiel was probably written after the events like the Babylonian Captivity, which it provides a theological analysis of in retrospect, rather than a prophecy.  This view is not entirely incompatible with regarding the book as Christologocal prophecy, for even if all fore tellings of future events in the Old Testament were to be regarded as mythological or prophecies written after the fact, the Old Testament is still undeniably and obviously a prophecy of Christ.  However, this is not my view, and I would regard such a view as being impious; it is equally impious and dangerously presumptuous however to claim we can interpret the precise meanings of prophecies.  Specific Jewish expectations regarding what the Kingdom of God would entail being wrong led to a substantial number of Jews rejecting Christ and not joining the Church, thus, as Mor has said, cutting themselves off from the Temple, Priesthood and Kingdom, in a great tragedy, something reflected if not explicitly acknowledged in the sombre nature of non-Chassidic Orthodox synagogue worship on many occasions (with mourning rites like the breaking of glass inserted into the wedding liturgy for example). 

What these fools are doing however is ignoring both Orthodox Christian and Jewish rabbinical traditions of the Talmudic era regarding the Temple and the Messiah, and instead are taking the Pharisaical expectations for the Messiah and applying them to the Second Coming of Christ, or in the case of the minority of Jews who want to rebuild the temple and actually render sacrifices therein, to either the First Coming, which they still await, or to the actions of the Jews as a whole as a "Messianic people" who have to collectively bring about The World to Come, as in much Reform, Reconstructionist and Conservative tradition.  That this  apocalyptic mentality is inherently disastrous if unchecked is proven by the revolt of 70 AD, which led to the destruction of the Temple to begin with, and the even more disastrous Bar Kochba Revolt in 130 AD which led to the destruction of most of Jerusalem and the expulsion of the Jews from what was left of it; the city would not be fully rebuilt nor would the Jews return in small numbers until St. Constantine, and in the Middle Ages there were multiple periods when the city was nearly if not completely bereft of Jews.   The existence of a nation state for the Jewish people as an ethno-linguistic-religious group, which should properly include Hebrew ethnic members of other religions like Christianity or even Buddhism, as well as those who wish to sojourn or live amongst the Jews as described in the Pentateuch, and which I support, based on the severe hardships suffered by the Jews in the diaspora, is directly endangered by this mentality.

The Jews have a right to believe whatever they want to believe about the priesthood, their eschatological status and so on, but their rights end at the boundaries of the property occupied by the Islamic Waqf since the end of the Crusades, which the Muslims have a legal and moral right to under the legal principle of adverse possession (or the civil law equivalents), the Jews and Crusaders having abandoned the site.  In contrast, the Muslims have no right to the Western Wall itself (the demolished Moroccan Quarter which was demolished to make way for the Western Wall Plaza is perhaps another matter), and the Christians by virtue of their continuous presence, a clear right shared between several schismatically seaprated jurisdictions to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which is properly regarded by all except some Protestants as the holiest place in Jerusalem, and one might argue that it coked even in some respects be the Third Temple).  Its also interesting to consider the layout of the Third Temple in Ezekiel can be interpreted as having a cruciform shape reminiscent of our common Christian ecclesiastical architecture, with what looks like a nave, an apse and a transept or solea.  So perhaps its correct to say every Temple in the Catholic Church (that is to say, what we would otherwise call the Orthodox Church), is the Third Temple, or an instance of it.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2015, 03:19:43 AM by wgw »
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #70 on: August 25, 2015, 04:41:36 AM »
My thoughts are that it would be neat to go back in time and see what the original temple looked like and to see how all the buildings have progressed there over the centuries.

Factoid:

Quote
The Crusaders captured Jerusalem in 1099 and the Dome of the Rock was given to the Augustinians, who turned it into a church while the Al-Aqsa Mosque became a royal palace. The Knights Templar, who believed the Dome of the Rock was the site of the Temple of Solomon, later set up their headquarters in the Al-Aqsa Mosque adjacent to the Dome for much of the 12th century. The "Templum Domini", as they called the Dome of the Rock, featured on the official seals of the Order's Grand Masters (such as Everard des Barres and Renaud de Vichiers), and soon became the architectural model for Round Templar churches across Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_Rock
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #71 on: August 25, 2015, 05:16:56 PM »
The destruction of the Temple, its empty/unrebuilt status, sack of Jerusalem, renaming of the city, etc. seemed to be viewed--at least for a time and among some--as a continuing witness that God was with the Church and no longer with the Jews. St. John is obviously controversial on these kind of topics, but fwiw:

Quote
Even today, if you go into Jerusalem, you will see the bare foundation, if you ask why this is so, you will hear no explanation other than the one I gave [God being with Christians and not the Jews]. We are all witnesses to this, for it happened not long ago but in our own time [he spoke of several attempts at rebuilding the temple, including in the mid-4th century]. Consider how conspicuous our victory is. This did not happen in the times of the good emperors; no one can say that the Christians came and prevented the work from being finished. It happened at a time when our religion was subject to persecution, when all our lives were in danger, when every man was afraid to speak, when paganism flourished [meaning the Emperor Julian, and possibly earlier emperors]. Some of the faithful hid in their homes, others fled the marketplaces and moved to the deserts. That is when these events occurred. So the Jews have no excuse left to them for their impudence.

-- St. John Chrysostom, Homilies Against the Jews, 5.11.10

Quote
Come now, and let me give you abundant proof that the temple will not be rebuilt and that the Jews will not return to their former way of life. In this way you will come to a clearer understanding of what the Apostles taught, and the Jews will be all the more convicted of acting in a godless way. As witness I shall produce not an angel, not an archangel, but the very Master of the whole world, our Lord Jesus Christ. When he came into Jerusalem and saw the temple, he said: "Jerusalem will be trodden down by many nations, until the times of many nations be fulfilled."

By this he meant the years to come until the consummation of the world. And again, speaking to his disciples about the temple, he made the threat that a stone would not remain upon a stone in that place until the time when it be destroyed. His threat was a prediction that the temple would come to a final devastation and completely disappear.

But the Jew totally rejects this testimony. He refuses to admit what Christ said. What does the Jew say? "The man who said this is my foe. I crucified him. so how am I to accept his testimony?" But this is the marvel of it. You Jews did crucify him. But after he died on the cross, he then destroyed your city; it was then that he dispersed your people; it was then that he scattered your nation over the face of the earth. In doing this, he teaches us that he is risen, alive, and in heaven.

Because you were not willing to recognize his power through his benefactions, he taught you by his punishment and vengeance that no one can struggle with or prevail against his might and strength. But even so, you do not believe in him, you do not recognize that he is God and Master of all the world, but you consider him just another man.

-- St. John Chrysostom, Homilies Against the Jews, 5.1.6-8

Quote
He also predicted that the temple would be destroyed, that Jerusalem would be captured, and that the city would no longer be the city of the Jews as it had been in the past.

If he was wrong and deceived you in all those other predictions, and they did not come true, then refuse to believe what he foretold of Jerusalem and the temple. But you do see those other predictions gloriously fulfilled and their truth waxing stronger with each passing day. The gates of hell did not prevail against the Church, after so many years the story of what that woman did is still told all over the world, and men who believed in him did pay greater veneration to him than to their own parents, wives, and children. If this is true, tell me, why do you reject this one prediction about the temple, especially since the testimony of time puts the gag of silence on your shameless words?

Suppose a mere ten, twenty, thirty, or fifty years were to have passed since the capture of Jerusalem. Even then you would have absolutely no right to show your impudence by rejecting his prediction, but if you wished to be obstinate, you might have had some pretext for protest left to you. But not only fifty years but many more than one, two, or three centuries have passed since Jerusalem was captured. And never has there been seen a single trace or shadow of the change for which you are waiting. Why, then, are you so rash and foolish as to keep up your shameless objections?

-- St. John Chrysostom, Homilies Against the Jews, 5.3.13-15
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #72 on: August 25, 2015, 05:33:50 PM »

Why, are you guys pro Muslims and anti Jew or something?

I would rather have Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount than Mosques any time.
If the Muslims want to voluntarily turn it over to the Jews to allow them to build a temple, then I say go for it, but I am not going to advocate one ounce of blood being spilled for that spot. There has been enough bloodshed in that region already that we don't need to encourage more just so the Jews can build a temple.
All I can say is that If God wills it, then it will happen no matter what.
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #73 on: August 25, 2015, 05:37:04 PM »

Why, are you guys pro Muslims and anti Jew or something?

I would rather have Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount than Mosques any time.

Are you anti-Christian or something? 

The Jews lost the Temple, the priesthood, and the kingdom because they rejected Christ.  Islam is wrong and I'd be fine without a mosque on the Temple Mount.  But that doesn't mean I want or support a Jewish Temple there.  They had their chance in AD 33.
Muslims have no place in Jerusalem,let alone claiming the Temple Mount as their own.

I'm no fan of the muslims but are you a evangelical zionist? there are mideast christians living in refuge camps because of israeli occupation, there are jewish fundamentalist who do price tag attacks on Orthodox Christians in the region and there is Orthodox christians who are Palestinan who had been attacked by crazy settlers. You do know ths right?
I don't know if I am a Zionist, I am more pro Jew than I am pro Muslim, put it that way. God chose Jews, not the Muslims to be His people and Temple Mount is Holy of Hollies belonging to Jews but Muslims have built their Mosque there which, in fact, had been destroyed by earth quake at least twice in the past, which tells you something. They,the Muslims, should not have built it there in the 1st place. 
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #74 on: August 25, 2015, 10:06:59 PM »

Why, are you guys pro Muslims and anti Jew or something?

I would rather have Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount than Mosques any time.
If the Muslims want to voluntarily turn it over to the Jews to allow them to build a temple, then I say go for it, but I am not going to advocate one ounce of blood being spilled for that spot. There has been enough bloodshed in that region already that we don't need to encourage more just so the Jews can build a temple.
All I can say is that If God wills it, then it will happen no matter what.
Well, that goes without saying, but I'm not convinced God wills the Jews to tear down the Dome of the Rock and build a temple.
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #75 on: August 26, 2015, 04:00:41 AM »

Why, are you guys pro Muslims and anti Jew or something?

I would rather have Jewish Temple on the Temple Mount than Mosques any time.
If the Muslims want to voluntarily turn it over to the Jews to allow them to build a temple, then I say go for it, but I am not going to advocate one ounce of blood being spilled for that spot. There has been enough bloodshed in that region already that we don't need to encourage more just so the Jews can build a temple.
All I can say is that If God wills it, then it will happen no matter what.
Well, that goes without saying, but I'm not convinced God wills the Jews to tear down the Dome of the Rock and build a temple.

Indeed.  The natural gas explosions triggered when the Jews tried to do this under Julian the Apostate I believe was one of the factors that persuaded the Orthodox rabbis that the Temple could not be rebuilt until the coming of the Messiah.

There may be a case for a Christian church to relieve overcrowding at the Holy Sepulchre.  If I were asked to design a solution to the problem, I would, based on Orthodox Jewish halakha, declare the Temple Mount temporarily under Christian and Islamic control pending the coming or return of the Messiah, at which time if the Jewish faith were vindicated these structures would naturally give way to the Third Temple.  I would then build a cathedral on the half of the Temple Mount not used by Muslims.  I would then create a magnificent synagogue to enclose the entire Western Wall plaza, which would be the grandest in Jerusalem, and which would be built in a traditional Judeo-Turkic-Byzantine style like the great choral synagogues of Eastern Europe, and the nearby Hurva Synagogue.  The new Western Wall synagogue however would feature an open series of portals and would not directly attach to the Western zwall, but rather, worshippers would pass through the portals, which would be on either side of the Torah Ark, to access the wall, which would otherwise be visible through a series ofmplain glass windows (the windows on the other walls would be opaque stained glass; a balcony for women would be connected with stairs to a re-segregated womens section of the Kotel).

Then, the Al Aqsa mosque, which is rather drab, would be replaced by a larger and grander modwue capable of handling more worshippers.  The other half of the Temple Mount would be thoroughly excavated.  The church, which woukd operate on a shared basis like Holy Sepulchre, would be designed in harmony with the new Al Aqsa mosqueand the grand synagogue below.  Christians would enter the Temple Mount from the south, and muslims from the north, and exquisite gardens would connect the two.  If archaeologists discovered the actual Holy of Holies of the First or Second Temple or calculated where it is, and if the Dome of the Rock did not cover it, it would be undisturbed but set apart in the gardens; if it fell inside the Dome of the Rock, the Dome would become an Abrahamic shrine to the ancient Temple and would no longer be specifically Muslim, but Islamic features would not be removed.  The hope would be the splendid new Al Aqsa mosque, which would be designed to outdo the Blue Mosque, and which would feature six minarets, would offset this.  The Christian cathedral would feature four spires and a central Byzantine dome; one spire would be equipped for zorthodox campanology, one for change ringing, one with a carillon, and one with an observation gallery.  The bells would not be rung at the same time as Islamic calls to prayer or during scheduled Jewish services so as to ensure tranquility.

I have in fact worked out a plan for Old Jerusalem modelled on Walt Disney's vision for EPCOT.  Alas I dont think either the Jews or Muslims or even the Christians would let me build it.  But its nice I think to prayerfully contemplate a peaceful Jerusalem, while studying sacred architecture and urban design.
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #76 on: August 26, 2015, 04:06:40 AM »
I have in fact worked out a plan for Old Jerusalem modelled on Walt Disney's vision for EPCOT. 

You have entirely too much time on your hands.
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #77 on: August 26, 2015, 05:29:18 AM »
Andrew, do you belong to one of the Orthodox churches?
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #78 on: August 26, 2015, 08:30:09 AM »
I have in fact worked out a plan for Old Jerusalem modelled on Walt Disney's vision for EPCOT. 

You have entirely too much time on your hands.
I wonder how he has any time at all after all the 18 paragraph posts that are sprinkled liberally throughout the forum.  :P
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #79 on: August 26, 2015, 10:59:23 AM »
"I have in fact worked out a plan for Old Jerusalem modelled on Walt Disney's vision for EPCOT."

 :o :o :o

Um... huh?
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #80 on: August 26, 2015, 12:18:53 PM »
I was recovering from stomach flu at the time.  What can I say.  I have posted a thread in Other Topics with the urban planning details for those who are interested.


But the bottom line is the Third Temple is a violation of Jewish Law according to the Chief Rabinnate of Israel; only the coming of the Messiah will facilitate it.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 12:21:39 PM by wgw »
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #81 on: August 26, 2015, 02:04:00 PM »
Hope you feel better.
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #82 on: August 26, 2015, 10:06:24 PM »
Hi all,
Is Jordan in charge of Dome of the Rock & Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem?

If the Jews were to remove those two buildings off Jerusalem and build their 3rd Temple, would other Muslim countries invade Israel in that case?

After all, the Dome of the Rock & Al-Aqsa Mosque are built in the center of the Temple Mount, the site where, it is believed, the Jewish First Temple and Second Temple had stood.

I don't think any of this will actually happen...  The Jews for now are content with the wall and the Muslims with their Dome.  I don't see any changes in our life times.....  To answer your idea of removing the Mosque on the Dome...... that I think would provoke a hail storm of war on Israel.. 

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #83 on: August 28, 2015, 06:17:51 AM »
My thoughts are that it would be neat to go back in time and see what the original temple looked like and to see how all the buildings have progressed there over the centuries.

Factoid:

Quote
The Crusaders captured Jerusalem in 1099 and the Dome of the Rock was given to the Augustinians, who turned it into a church while the Al-Aqsa Mosque became a royal palace. The Knights Templar, who believed the Dome of the Rock was the site of the Temple of Solomon, later set up their headquarters in the Al-Aqsa Mosque adjacent to the Dome for much of the 12th century. The "Templum Domini", as they called the Dome of the Rock, featured on the official seals of the Order's Grand Masters (such as Everard des Barres and Renaud de Vichiers), and soon became the architectural model for Round Templar churches across Europe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dome_of_the_Rock
After the Crusaders recaptured Jerusalem and occupied the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Golden Dome, how did they manage to give it up again to the Muslims later?
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #84 on: August 28, 2015, 06:33:45 AM »
I have in fact worked out a plan for Old Jerusalem modelled on Walt Disney's vision for EPCOT. 

You have entirely too much time on your hands.
Yes, I thought that.
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #85 on: August 28, 2015, 06:34:04 AM »
Andrew, do you belong to one of the Orthodox churches?
Yes.
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #86 on: August 28, 2015, 06:53:13 AM »
Hi all,
Is Jordan in charge of Dome of the Rock & Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem?

If the Jews were to remove those two buildings off Jerusalem and build their 3rd Temple, would other Muslim countries invade Israel in that case?

After all, the Dome of the Rock & Al-Aqsa Mosque are built in the center of the Temple Mount, the site where, it is believed, the Jewish First Temple and Second Temple had stood.

I don't think any of this will actually happen...  The Jews for now are content with the wall and the Muslims with their Dome.  I don't see any changes in our life times.....  To answer your idea of removing the Mosque on the Dome...... that I think would provoke a hail storm of war on Israel..
Thank you for your thoughts.
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Offline biro

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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #87 on: August 28, 2015, 12:53:45 PM »
Although I think some Orthodox Jews may want to see the Temple built in their lifetimes, I expect other factions may find this is too impractical. There is too much chance for open war with radical factions. That area has plenty of terrorist incidents right now. I suspect they don't want to open up the possibility of anything even worse than that.
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #88 on: August 28, 2015, 01:17:26 PM »
Jews will get their way, one day. It is a matter of time.
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Re: Jerusalem & Dome of the Rock
« Reply #89 on: August 28, 2015, 01:34:56 PM »
Jews will get their way, one day. It is a matter of time.

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