OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 22, 2014, 02:09:23 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Armenian Orthodox  (Read 12250 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
djrak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire" - 1 Thess 5:19


WWW
« on: July 06, 2005, 08:38:19 AM »

hey i'm new here and was wondering if there are any armenians here, i did come across a few armenian names.
i got attracted to the orthodox church not too long ago and discovered what a great treasure it is, and was wondering if you people know what i'm talking about, or if there's anyone out there who can relate...
peace
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 08:40:19 AM by djrak » Logged

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - John 14:9
sin_vladimirov
ANAXIOS!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 477

ICXC NIKA


« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2005, 09:05:59 AM »

Welcome to OC.net.


Oh brother, don't I know what you are talking about.

There is so much in Orthodoxy that is just beyond of all those who are due to wrong science or action just out of Her.

The meanings behind the symbols and types; the meaning behind the words and actions; the depth, width and hight of Theology; the beauty of faith and in all of all and through all the ever present and pure Love of God for His Bride and care of Head for His Body is just beyond all those sectarian and selfish, human and philosophical opinions that desert of this world thinks to be "bible believing Christianity".

I love Orthodoxy.

It is true saying of St. Cyprian:
"No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother".

So true.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 09:06:21 AM by sin_vladimirov » Logged

Lord have mercy.
djrak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire" - 1 Thess 5:19


WWW
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2005, 09:41:24 AM »

the depth, width and hight of Theology
3D theology
Quote
the beauty of faith and in all of all and through all the ever present and pure Love of God for His Bride and care of Head for His Body is just beyond all those sectarian and selfish, human and philosophical opinions that desert of this world thinks to be "bible believing Christianity".
yes, yes, yes, couldnt have said it better myself Grin
although selfishness and church politics has its place there too :'( but it's simply not the same, it's as if God in some mysterious way is in control of things and only allows the bad things for a while for us to lean a lesson as a church.

Quote
I love Orthodoxy.
Amen

Quote
It is true saying of St. Cyprian:
"No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother".

So true.
a little extreme but has a lot of truth in it.
Logged

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - John 14:9
sin_vladimirov
ANAXIOS!
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 477

ICXC NIKA


« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2005, 09:51:30 AM »

...although selfishness and church politics has its place there too...
To true, there are many things that can and should be changed, but not OF the Church but IN he Church... I mean, human aspect can always be better. Thankfully Church is Divine also (so we can't destroy her as much as satan would like us too).

Quote
...a little extreme but has a lot of truth in it...
I love extreme LOL.

Logged

Lord have mercy.
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,901


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2005, 01:15:57 PM »

I am Armenian Orthodox.  So is Ghazaros.  It used to be that you could list your religion by your name.  I don't know what happened to that.

Are you interested in the Armenian Church?  It is a beautiful Church, but the one drawback for non-Armenians is that we don't have English liturgies. Still, Armenian is not a hard language.  If I can speak it, anyone can. Smiley
Logged

djrak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire" - 1 Thess 5:19


WWW
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2005, 01:23:09 PM »

I am Armenian Orthodox.ÂÂ  So is Ghazaros.ÂÂ  It used to be that you could list your religion by your name.ÂÂ  I don't know what happened to that.

Are you interested in the Armenian Church?ÂÂ  It is a beautiful Church, but the one drawback for non-Armenians is that we don't have English liturgies. Still, Armenian is not a hard language.ÂÂ  If I can speak it, anyone can. Smiley
parev Salpy,
i am armenian, my name is Sebouh. I am not a "convert" but in a sense i feel like one.
i've never had religious education and after becoming a real christian (born-again or whatever you want to call it) i went to other churches and communities for the truth as i saw "legalism" and only tradition in our church and it was only after a few accidents and experiences that i got attracted to our church... and i am very interrested about it now and orthodoxy in general
Logged

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - John 14:9
djrak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire" - 1 Thess 5:19


WWW
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2005, 04:40:54 PM »

so Salpy where are you from? did i scare you off? Undecided
Logged

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - John 14:9
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,901


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2005, 04:43:31 PM »

No, you didn't scare me off.ÂÂ  I was just preoccupied.ÂÂ  

Welcome back to the Armenian Church!

I was actually raised in a Protestant church, since my dad is not Armenian.  I got plenty of exposure, however, to the Armenian Church through my mom's parents and as a young adult I converted.

On the surface, the Armenian Church can look like an ethnic club (some people would like to turn it into that.)  But when you really get involved, study the beliefs and immerse yourself in the badarak, you find a deep well of spirituality which doesn't exist in any form of Protestantism.

Check out our brother Ghazaros' website:  http://www.geocities.com/derghazar/index.html   He also is  someone who spent time outside of the Armenian Church and had to "find his way home."   ÃƒÆ’‚ It's a pretty cool website.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2006, 12:55:03 AM by Salpy » Logged

djrak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire" - 1 Thess 5:19


WWW
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2005, 04:50:40 PM »

hey thanks for the link i'll check it out

Logged

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - John 14:9
djrak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire" - 1 Thess 5:19


WWW
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2005, 05:44:12 PM »

hey there are some great articles on his site! i'm impressed!
Logged

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - John 14:9
Timos
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 856



« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2005, 08:50:33 PM »

Not too far from my house is the Holy Trinity Armenian Church. I was interested in the Liturgy so I decided to check it out.
The baradark was a mixture between Byzantine, Syrian, and Latin Tradition which was really really cool. For example, the Armenian bishop hat looks very much like a Catholic mitre and the clothing is very much Byzantine. Also, the liturgy itself has some byzantine elements like: "Let us stand aright, let us stand well....in the fear of God." etc.

What I found interesting was that there are no icons except 1 of the Virgin Mary at the altar. Also, the altar girls or 'tubirs' are a really nice touch.Correct me if I'm wrong but they can serve at the altar until they reach puberty, correct?

I also noticed that the music (before Komitas or anyone else harmonized it) had the drone/bass liek the Greek Byzantine chanting.

As far as I know, the church of Georgia which is very close in custom and language to Armenia used to be OO but then in the Middle ages was brought into communion with the EO churches.

Oh yeah and your architecture is awesome 2.
Logged
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,901


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2005, 10:16:50 PM »

My priest told me something interesting about the bishop's mitre.  Prior to the crusades, Armenian bishops wore crowns, just like Greek bishops do.  However, during the crusades, the Armenian bishops saw the mitres the Catholic bishops wore and decided to wear them also.  I guess they thought they were cool looking.  The bishops didn't want to just throw out their nice crowns, however, so they passed them down to the priests.  That is why today Armenian priests wear crowns that look like the ones Greek bishops wear and Armenian bishops wear Catholic looking mitres.

I think altar girls are a late 20th century addition.  We have them at my church and I know some people think it isn't right.  You are correct that they don't continue to serve when they get to be teenagers. 

Armenian churches tend not to have as many icons as Coptic or Greek churches, but it varies from parish to parish.  The altar is supposed to have the icon of the Mother of God holding Christ.  Now and then, however, you'll see an Armenian church with a different icon above the altar.  I went to one near Boston once that had an icon of the Resurrection over the altar.  My church has about half a dozen icons besides the one above the altar.

The Georgian language is very different from Armenian, although their alphabet was invented by the same man, the Armenian saint Mesrob Mashdots.  Their architecture is somewhat similar to Armenian architecture. 

You are right that the Georgians used to be OO.  I think they rejected Chalcedon around the same time the Armenians did, during the first decade of the 6th century.  The Armenians rejected Chalcedon in the council of Dvin, and the Georgians were represented at that council, which means they either rejected it then, or had already rejected it. 

The Council of Dvin was called as a reaction to the fact that the Persian (Assyrian) Church, which had long held the christology of Theodore of Mopsuestia, had embraced Chalcedon and the tome of Leo as vindicating their position.  The Armenian Church had remained faithful to the christology of Alexandria and had accepted the Third Council, while the Persian Church had rejected it.  The Council of Dvin, in 506, anathematized both Nestorius (whom the Persian Church had embraced) and Eutyches, to show that they were not embracing the heresy of the latter.

I think it was two or three centuries later that the Georgians reversed their position and embraced Chalcedon.  I do not know why they did this, but it may have to do with the fact that the fifth council got rid of some of the more nestorian elements of Chalcedon (the three chapters) and reoriented it so it was a little more consistent with the third council.

Historically, the Armenians and Georgians have gotten along pretty well.  The Armenians in Georgia have been a significant minority there with very few problems.  However, recently, things have been a little tense.  The Georgians have been closing down or taking over Armenian churches.  Supposedly, this is being done in the name of Chalcedon, although I wonder if ethnic tension may play a role in it too.  In any event, it is not a happy situation.

Sorry for going on too long!  I don't know the answer to your musical question, as I know very little about music (except that I like listening to it.) 

Logged

Hadel
IN CHRIST
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Jerusalem
Posts: 277


Jesus Christ Our Lord, King of Kings


« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2005, 01:38:33 AM »

hey i'm new here and was wondering if there are any armenians here, i did come across a few armenian names.
i got attracted to the orthodox church not too long ago and discovered what a great treasure it is, and was wondering if you people know what i'm talking about, or if there's anyone out there who can relate...
peace

Welcome! I am not Armenian, however, I relate, because I have Armenian family thru marriage.... my origins are from Jordan.

Love the people and the Armenian culture.

Welcome and I hope you enjoy this forum.

In Christ,
Hadel
Logged

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
djrak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire" - 1 Thess 5:19


WWW
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2005, 03:05:13 AM »

What I found interesting was that there are no icons except 1 of the Virgin Mary at the altar. Also, the altar girls or 'tubirs' are a really nice touch.Correct me if I'm wrong but they can serve at the altar until they reach puberty, correct?
we dont have icons like the greek orthodox do... there are paintings and images in our churches but they arent icons. Salpy, correct me if i'm wrong.

Quote
I also noticed that the music (before Komitas or anyone else harmonized it) had the drone/bass liek the Greek Byzantine chanting.
Gomidas is the man! that priest was a genius!
Logged

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - John 14:9
djrak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire" - 1 Thess 5:19


WWW
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2005, 03:13:25 AM »

Welcome! I am not Armenian, however, I relate, because I have Armenian family thru marriage.... my origins are from Jordan.

Love the people and the Armenian culture.

Welcome and I hope you enjoy this forum.

In Christ,
Hadel
Hey there Hadel, thank you for the warm welcome, Jordanian people are cool, very civilized.
Logged

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - John 14:9
Addai
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 154


WWW
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2005, 11:36:14 AM »

hey i'm new here and was wondering if there are any armenians here, i did come across a few armenian names.
i got attracted to the orthodox church not too long ago and discovered what a great treasure it is, and was wondering if you people know what i'm talking about, or if there's anyone out there who can relate...
peace


I think there are a few here.  ÃƒÆ’‚  I myself went to an armenian church for over 6 months.  ÃƒÆ’‚  By the way I wonder if we have met before on another web site perhaps (theooze.com)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2005, 11:37:44 AM by Addai » Logged

djrak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire" - 1 Thess 5:19


WWW
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2005, 12:45:59 PM »


I think there are a few here.  ÃƒÆ’‚  I myself went to an armenian church for over 6 months.  ÃƒÆ’‚  By the way I wonder if we have met before on another web site perhaps (theooze.com)
Addai, how's it goin, yeah it's me "flame"("djrak" in Armenian). i think i found this forum thru your links, thanks!
Logged

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - John 14:9
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,901


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2005, 01:00:25 PM »

Re icons in the Armenian church:

If you look at the illuminated manuscripts as well as what is left of the really ancient frescoes in some of the old churches, you'll see that the images are in an old, traditional style very similar to what you see in Greek icons.  During the 1700's, it became popular to imitate the naturalistic style of the western Europeans, and that eventually became the prevalent form of images to be seen in Armenian churches, especially in the diaspora after the Genocide.

I think there is a movement now toward bringing back the old style and I think that is a good thing.  I have heard there are schools of iconography now in Yerevan where they teach the traditional style to young people and it is becoming increasingly popular to put the traditional images in the churches over there.

In fact, about a year ago my church commissioned an icon of one of the apostles to be painted in Armenia. ÂÂ We have a relic of that saint and we wanted the icon so we could embed the relic in it for veneration. ÂÂ The icon is painted on wood in the old style, about 15 by 9 inches. ÂÂ We now have the icon with the relic embedded in it, on top of a stand in our church with glass on it so people can venerate the relic. ÂÂ  

A vocabulary lesson for the non-Armenians:  The images in Armenian churches, whether the traditional style or the western style, are called "sourp ngar" or "sourp badger."  Both mean "holy picture."
Logged

djrak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire" - 1 Thess 5:19


WWW
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2005, 01:10:26 PM »

hey Salpy i know about "trchnakir" (bird-letters) and little miniature drawings they use to have in manuscripts, but have never seen icons like the ones in greek orthodox churches.
i've also seen huge paintings in churches but again i believe icons are as you said venerated, or the person/saint represented in it right?
people do touch the painting and kiss them sometime thow, so i guess they venerate them right? hmm.... still a strange thing for me Undecided
Logged

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - John 14:9
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,901


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2005, 02:20:38 PM »

I think the Armenians have always had a stronger veneration for the Holy Cross than for holy pictures and our theology regarding images never became as developed or formalized as that of the Greeks.ÂÂ  Still, holy pictures have always been in Armenian churches and people have always been free to worship Christ or venerate His saints through them.ÂÂ  As you said, people kiss and touch them.ÂÂ  The deacons, as they cense the church, also make a point of censing the holy pictures.

For an example of an Armenian church in the U.S. which is trying to bring back the traditional style of iconography, see the website of St. John Church in Michigan:ÂÂ  http://www.stjohnsarmenianchurch.org/
« Last Edit: July 07, 2005, 02:22:47 PM by Salpy » Logged

Mexican
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria
Posts: 489


« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2005, 08:30:03 PM »

Last year because of my ex-girlfriend's family I attended an Armenian liturgy that was celebrated by a Uniat-Armenian bishop from Argentina who visited Mexico City's Armenian community (people of both confessions are under the care of the Catholic Uniat Bishop) and they had many elements brought from the Medieval Roman tradition as I could see:

- The first prayers (at the foot of the altar) that are performed by the priest and the servers..

- People kneel at the consecration and the eucharist is transumted when "this is my body.. this is my blood" are pronnounced like in the Roman Church.

- The Last Gospel is recited at the end of the liturgy. The French Church had adopted this practice as a proof of the orthodoxy of its priests to prevent that they were hidden Cathars or Jews. The Armenians adopted this during the time of the cruzades.

- Un-leavened bread (or leavened bread which looks unleavened) is used at the liturgy.

The Armenian Orthodox also have these Latin influences from what i know.
Logged
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,901


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2005, 01:57:55 AM »

The use of unleavened bread for the Eucharist by the Armenian Orthodox actually predates the Roman use of unleavened bread by a few centuries.  I've heard it has something to do with Christ being without sin.  Yeast or leaven evidently represent sin. 

Something else which is unique to the Armenian Church is the priest does not add water to the wine.  I think all other Orthodox do that.  Also, we don't use a communion spoon.  The priest just takes the Holy Body, which is already immersed in the Holy Blood, and puts it in the mouth of the faithful.

I've heard that the confession said by the priest before ascending the altar was borrowed from the Romans during the Crusades.

In some Armenian churches it is customary to kneel during certain parts of the liturgy, but I don't know if that was borrowed from the Romans.  It probably was.  I know in my church, the choir never kneels, but many people in the congregation kneel.

I never heard about the final Gospel being borrowed.  Don't other Orthodox churches have that?
Logged

yBeayf
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 708

/etc


« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2005, 12:34:56 PM »

Quote
I never heard about the final Gospel being borrowed.  Don't other Orthodox churches have that?

Nope -- it was a peculiarly Roman tradition that developed in the middle ages.
Logged
Ghazar
Byzantine Armenian Christian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 215


"Ghazaros, toors yegoor:" "Lazarus, come forth."


WWW
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2005, 08:14:47 AM »

Dear friends,
Our sister Salpy wrote me and invited me into this discussion.ÂÂ  It may be a little late but I'll add a few things anyway.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mexican wrote:
"Last year because of my ex-girlfriend's family I attended an Armenian liturgy that was celebrated by a Uniat-Armenian bishop from Argentina who visited Mexico City's Armenian community (people of both confessions are under the care of the Catholic Uniat Bishop) and they had many elements brought from the Medieval Roman tradition as I could see:

- The first prayers (at the foot of the altar) that are performed by the priest and the servers..
- People kneel at the consecration and the eucharist is transumted when "this is my body.. this is my blood" are pronnounced like in the Roman Church.
- The Last Gospel is recited at the end of the liturgy. The French Church had adopted this practice as a proof of the orthodoxy of its priests to prevent that they were hidden Cathars or Jews. The Armenians adopted this during the time of the cruzades.
- Un-leavened bread (or leavened bread which looks unleavened) is used at the liturgy.
The Armenian Orthodox also have these Latin influences from what i know."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its true we have borrowed a little from the Latins in our Liturgy.  (I say "Latins" because "Roman" is a term traditionally reserved by the Eastern Churches for what in English most now call "Byzantine".  ÃƒÆ’‚ The termed "Byzantine" is foreign to the Traditon of all ancient Churches and was coined in the last few centuries by a French writer.  Until then the Eastern Orthodox were always known as "Romans" and those in communion with the Patriarch of the West were commonly known as "Latins" or "Franks.")

Despite a few additions resulting from our contacts with the Latins during the Crusades, it should be remembered that our Liturgy is still very much an ancient one ÂÂ  Experts beleive our Divine Liturgy is an older form of the Liturgy of St. Basil which itself was based on the very ancient Liturgy of St. Jacob (or James) of Jerusalem.ÂÂ  Our Anaphora of St. Athanasios is also unique and ancient.ÂÂ  So despite the small additions to the beginning and the end of our Divine Liturgy (as noted by Mexican), it remains unique, historic and most importantly firmly rooted in the Orthodox Tradition.

Although some in our Church do kneel during the Soorp Badarak, it is not required.ÂÂ  In fact, the instructions in the front of our Divine Liturgy books specifically state that it is proper for Eastern Christians to stand during prayer to God.ÂÂ  In the book "Frequently Asked Questions about the Armenian Church" by the Order of His Eminence Archbishop Khajag Barsamian, it is stated quite emphatically that we should NOT kneel on Sundays or in any celebration of the Divine Liturgy.ÂÂ  So I think this is something which is being corrected.

Salpy gave a nice explanation of how our Bishops came to look like Latin bishops (and our priests came to look like Eastern Orthodox bishops).ÂÂ  Some might see this as a sign of weakness on behalf of the Armenian Church leaders of that time.ÂÂ  I see it a litttle differently.ÂÂ  I see it as a manifestation of the great love and desire for unity which is a hallmark of our Armenian Church.ÂÂ  We've always been willing to bend over backwards to meet our brethren (Latins and Greeks) half way to resolve our differences.ÂÂ  Some of the writings of St. Nersess Shnorhali (the Gracefilled) on this point are remarkable for their wisdom and brotherly affection towards our seperated brethren of the historic Orthodox and Catholic Churches.ÂÂ  Our Church was even willing to adopt some of their vestments and liturgical practices if this meant it could move us closer to unity.

Our bishops bent but they did not break.ÂÂ  When the Latin Popes issued ultimatums demanding our adopting of some 117 odd changes for us to be considered worthy of Communion enough of our clergy took a stand to prevent the abandonement of anything considered essential.ÂÂ  Or when Eastern Roman theologians demanded our repudiation of essential teachings, our bishops drew the line.ÂÂ  Although they were willing to allow for changes in non-essential areas, they were not weak when we were told to change our historic faith.ÂÂ  On the contrary, they stood their ground on the faith which they knew was already Orthodox and did not need fixing by Greeks or Latins.

As for unleaveded bread, as Salpy said, "The use of unleavened bread for the Eucharist by the Armenian Orthodox actually predates the Roman use of unleavened bread by a few centuries.ÂÂ  I've heard it has something to do with Christ being without sin.ÂÂ  Yeast or leaven evidently represent sin."

There are different theological explanations for it, but she is right:ÂÂ  we used unleavened bread centuries before the Latins.ÂÂ  Perhaps liturgical adaptations were not entirely a one way street during our contacts with the Latins during the Crusades?ÂÂ  We adopted a lot of their practices.ÂÂ  Perhaps this is one of ours which they adopted?ÂÂ  As for the Words of Institution, they are sung just as they are in the other Orthodox Churches.

I hope to post more soon.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2005, 12:41:51 PM by Ghazaros » Logged

Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Lazarus Der-Ghazarian,
Byzantine Catholic Church, Eparchy of Parma
St. Gregory the Illuminator Institute:
www.looys.net
Ghazar
Byzantine Armenian Christian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 215


"Ghazaros, toors yegoor:" "Lazarus, come forth."


WWW
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2005, 02:11:15 PM »

I.  Some random comments on interesting quotes:

Djrak said:
"hey i'm new here and was wondering if there are any armenians here, i did come across a few armenian names.
i got attracted to the orthodox church not too long ago and discovered what a great treasure it is, and was wondering if you people know what i'm talking about, or if there's anyone out there who can relate... peace"

reply:  Djrak, I know exactly what you mean.  The Orthodox Church is certainly a "pearl of great price."  I too am Armenian.

Salpy said:
"On the surface, the Armenian Church can look like an ethnic club (some people would like to turn it into that.)  But when you really get involved, study the beliefs and immerse yourself in the badarak, you find a deep well of spirituality which doesn't exist in any form of Protestantism."

reply:  Well put sister Salpy!  You hit the nail right on the head.  Thank you to both Salpy and Drjak for the kind words about the site.  Glad you found it useful.

Salpy said:
"The Council of Dvin was called as a reaction to the fact that the Persian (Assyrian) Church, which had long held the christology of Theodore of Mopsuestia, had embraced Chalcedon and the tome of Leo as vindicating their position.  The Armenian Church had remained faithful to the christology of Alexandria and had accepted the Third Council, while the Persian Church had rejected it.  The Council of Dvin, in 506, anathematized both Nestorius (whom the Persian Church had embraced) and Eutyches, to show that they were not embracing the heresy of the latter."

reply:  This is a very important point, Salpy.  Many see the Seven Councils as a unity.  But this is in hindsight.  At the time of the Councils, the fourth was seen by many as a defense of those who had doubts and reservations about the third.  But hopefully this is all water under the bridge now.  Our theologians on both sides have affirmed our common Christological faith both with the Greeks and the Latins.  That's good enough for me.

Timos said:
I also noticed that the music (before Komitas or anyone else harmonized it) had the drone/bass like the Greek Byzantine chanting."

reply:  Gomidas' arrangement of the Divine Liturgy, I'm told by an expert on Armenian Liturgy is much closer to the Traditional form of the Badarak than is Egmalian's who used much more Western influence (e.g. four part harmony et al).

____________________________________________________________

II.  On the Armenian Church use of Iconography

Salpy said:
"In some of the old churches, you'll see that the images are in an old, traditional style very similar to what you see in Greek icons.  During the 1700's, it became popular to imitate the naturalistic style of the western Europeans, and that eventually became the prevalent form of images to be seen in Armenian churches, especially in the diaspora after the Genocide.  I think there is a movement now toward bringing back the old style and I think that is a good thing.  I have heard there are schools of iconography now in Yerevan where they teach the traditional style to young people and it is becoming increasingly popular to put the traditional images in the churches over there. I think the Armenians have always had a stronger veneration for the Holy Cross than for holy pictures and our theology regarding images never became as developed or formalized as that of the Greeks.  Still, holy pictures have always been in Armenian churches and people have always been free to worship Christ or venerate His saints through them.  As you said, people kiss and touch them.  The deacons, as they cense the church, also make a point of censing the holy pictures. -Salpy "

reply:  Very good points!

Timos said:
"What I found interesting was that there are no icons except 1 of the Virgin Mary at the altar.  Also, the altar girls or 'tubirs' are a really nice touch.  Correct me if I'm wrong but they can serve at the altar until they reach puberty, correct?" -Timos

reply:  Dear Timos,
   You are correct that many Armenian Churches are more conservative in their use of Iconography.  It is important for us all to remember that the word Icon means "Image."  The Armenian Church certainly does employ Holy Images in their Churches and in their Worship.  The Armenian word "Surpabadger" litterally connotes "Holy Image."  The Armenian Church was one of the first to have to do battle with the Iconoclasts and indeed ultimately affirmed the Orthodoxy of Images and their veneration.  Our Church fully concurs with the decisions of the Council of Nicea II (counted as the VIIth Ecumenical Council by the West).  In fact the oldest written defense of the use Icons was by an Armenian writer.  It can be found on-line at http://www.geocities.com/derghazar/symbol.html
   Another important point is that although our Iconography is usually not on wood but rather painted on walls as frescoes, or in the style of Mosaics, or in our Sacred Books as "Miniatures" it is important to recognize one thing about them:  the far majority of them follow the identical theological themes and canonical patterns common to all Eastern Iconography.  Thus you can find identical Armenian Icons of everything from the Transfiguration of our Lord, to the Translation of the Mother of God into Paradise, to the Harrowing of Hell, etc.  This is just a manifestation of the fact that we share the same basic Orthodox faith with all of our Eastern brethren.
   As for girls as tubirs, I think this is problematic for several reasons which I won't delve into now.
Logged

Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Lazarus Der-Ghazarian,
Byzantine Catholic Church, Eparchy of Parma
St. Gregory the Illuminator Institute:
www.looys.net
djrak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire" - 1 Thess 5:19


WWW
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2005, 02:39:46 AM »

this may be off-topic but do you know where to download sharagans from (mp3's and/or lyrics(krapar))
thanks!
Logged

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - John 14:9
Ghazar
Byzantine Armenian Christian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 215


"Ghazaros, toors yegoor:" "Lazarus, come forth."


WWW
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2005, 04:21:59 PM »

Djrak,

Yes there are such things available.  Try one of these:

http://www.armenianchurchlibrary.com/divineliturgy.html

http://www.sharagan.com/

http://www.armenianchurch.org/index.shtml

The Diocese site, I know does have sheet music and lyrics.  I'm not sure about MP3's though.
Logged

Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Lazarus Der-Ghazarian,
Byzantine Catholic Church, Eparchy of Parma
St. Gregory the Illuminator Institute:
www.looys.net
Salpy
Moderator
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Armenian Church
Posts: 12,901


Pray for the Christians of Iraq and Syria.


« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2005, 11:12:53 PM »

Thank you, Ghazaros, for your input.  I wasn't sure what I was getting right and what I was getting wrong.

Something interesting which pertains to the ancient character of our Church and liturgy:

There is a professor of medieval history at a nearby university who, once a year, takes his grad students for a field trip to our church.  They come to a liturgy on a Sunday and then attend a lecture by the professor in our church's social hall.  It's weird.  Like we're some obscure tribe being observed by anthropologists.  They're always pleasent, however, and polite, so it's not a problem.  Still, it's weird.
Logged

aserb
asinner
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese
Posts: 1,188


« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2005, 11:14:48 PM »

djrak

I can identify with you. My father was Serbian Orthodox (memory eternal), but I learned nothing of the faith as a child. When I went to college I became an evangelical christian and wandered in that desert for 25 years. I returned to Orthodoxy and all its magnificence in 2002.
Logged

Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!
djrak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire" - 1 Thess 5:19


WWW
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2005, 04:34:41 AM »

It's weird.ÂÂ  Like we're some obscure tribe being observed by anthropologists.
armenoids under the microscope of mad scientist the historian and the "we want to learn why people do/did what they do/did without being involved or using anything other than our brain muscles so that we dont become like them" crew.
it's a common phenomenon.
Logged

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - John 14:9
djrak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire" - 1 Thess 5:19


WWW
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2005, 04:44:01 AM »

Orthodoxy and all its magnificence
i like the way that sounds!
aserb, you dont know how great it is to find people who've been where i've been. It's such a magnificent gift like you said. let us pray to keep it that way and build on it.

it hurt me so much the other day talking with an old friend who resented our church and Christ! because of the corruption he saw there. I tried to take the discussion out of that place but couldnt ease his anger. It was as if he knows he needs the church and it hurts him that he cant rely on it but is not aware of his state of mysery and hatred. His soul was crying and he didnt know it. I cant allow that to happen. We have to build build build, pray that God shows us the right way to do it. God help us all.
Logged

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - John 14:9
djrak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire" - 1 Thess 5:19


WWW
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2005, 04:46:19 AM »

Djrak,

Yes there are such things available.ÂÂ  Try one of these:

http://www.armenianchurchlibrary.com/divineliturgy.html

http://www.sharagan.com/

http://www.armenianchurch.org/index.shtml

The Diocese site, I know does have sheet music and lyrics.ÂÂ  I'm not sure about MP3's though.
thanks for the links Ghazaros, couldnt find mp3's though, it's cool.
Logged

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - John 14:9
aserb
asinner
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self Ruled Antiochian Archdiocese
Posts: 1,188


« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2005, 09:41:38 AM »

djrak

It's good to find people like you too. I find that many cradle beleivers don't realize what they have and it is sad. Maybe, we had to wander in the desert like the prodigal.

Logged

Save us o' Son of God, who art risen from the dead, as we sing to thee Alleluia!
Ghazar
Byzantine Armenian Christian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 215


"Ghazaros, toors yegoor:" "Lazarus, come forth."


WWW
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2005, 05:52:29 PM »

djrak

I'm sorry you didn't find the MP3's.  I'm not sure if any MP3's of sharagans are there, but if you do some digging on these sites, you might find them.  I know the Diocese site certainly has sheet music and words of sharagans for several feasts.  I also know the following site has audio lectures click on MP3:  ÃƒÆ’‚ http://www.armenianchurchlibrary.com/audiovisual.html

But

« Last Edit: July 20, 2005, 06:08:27 PM by Ghazaros » Logged

Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Lazarus Der-Ghazarian,
Byzantine Catholic Church, Eparchy of Parma
St. Gregory the Illuminator Institute:
www.looys.net
Ghazar
Byzantine Armenian Christian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 215


"Ghazaros, toors yegoor:" "Lazarus, come forth."


WWW
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2005, 06:04:02 PM »

Thank you, Ghazaros, for your input. I wasn't sure what I was getting right and what I was getting wrong.

Something interesting which pertains to the ancient character of our Church and liturgy:

There is a professor of medieval history at a nearby university who, once a year, takes his grad students for a field trip to our church. They come to a liturgy on a Sunday and then attend a lecture by the professor in our church's social hall. It's weird. Like we're some obscure tribe being observed by anthropologists. They're always pleasent, however, and polite, so it's not a problem. Still, it's weird.

No problem, Salpy.  But you always do a good job of presenting our Church's teaching and history.  You don't need my help.  I have learned a lot from you and am glad to have met you here through the forum.  May God grant our Church many more faithful members like yourself to help the Church fulfill its mission!

your brother in Christ's Light,
Ghazar
Logged

Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Lazarus Der-Ghazarian,
Byzantine Catholic Church, Eparchy of Parma
St. Gregory the Illuminator Institute:
www.looys.net
djrak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire" - 1 Thess 5:19


WWW
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2005, 03:25:31 AM »

hey Ghazaros, do you know where i can find an english translation of the badarak?
thanks!
Logged

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - John 14:9
Ghazar
Byzantine Armenian Christian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 215


"Ghazaros, toors yegoor:" "Lazarus, come forth."


WWW
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2005, 07:08:39 PM »

My page below has the Soorp Badarak book our Diocese uses.  Its the best translation in modern English I've seen.  Its very accurate with no silly gimicks.  Just click on the book and there should be info. on how to order it.

http://www.geocities.com/derghazar/articles.html

By the way, if you are from Lebanon, how come you converse in English so well?

If you are looking for translations of the Badarak on-line, I haven't seen any Orthodox ones.  There is an Armenian Catholic one I know that is online.  You could do a search on this.
Logged

Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Lazarus Der-Ghazarian,
Byzantine Catholic Church, Eparchy of Parma
St. Gregory the Illuminator Institute:
www.looys.net
yBeayf
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 708

/etc


« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2005, 11:45:46 PM »

Quote
If you are looking for translations of the Badarak on-line, I haven't seen any Orthodox ones.  There is an Armenian Catholic one I know that is online.  You could do a search on this.

One of the pages you linked earlier had the Badarak.
Logged
djrak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire" - 1 Thess 5:19


WWW
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2005, 02:55:22 AM »

My page below has the Soorp Badarak book our Diocese uses.ÂÂ  Its the best translation in modern English I've seen.ÂÂ  Its very accurate with no silly gimicks.ÂÂ  Just click on the book and there should be info. on how to order it.

http://www.geocities.com/derghazar/articles.html
thanks

Quote
By the way, if you are from Lebanon, how come you converse in English so well?
globilization?
people here in some circles use only the english language for several reasons, returning immigrants, foreigners, for more clarity, so everyone understands... so you learn english by using it, oh yeah! hip hop helped too Wink
no but usually people here talk 3 to 4 languages but how fluent is a different question Cool

Quote
If you are looking for translations of the Badarak on-line, I haven't seen any Orthodox ones.ÂÂ  There is an Armenian Catholic one I know that is online.ÂÂ  You could do a search on this.
is theirs the same as ours? i think it's a very short version of ours isnt it?
Logged

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - John 14:9
djrak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire" - 1 Thess 5:19


WWW
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2005, 03:00:46 AM »

One of the pages you linked earlier had the Badarak.
hey thanks, i think this is it!
Logged

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - John 14:9
djrak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire" - 1 Thess 5:19


WWW
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2005, 03:05:38 AM »

One of the pages you linked earlier had the Badarak.
Ghazaros, this isn't a very accurate translation is it? Undecided
Logged

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - John 14:9
Addai
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 154


WWW
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2005, 03:50:35 PM »

The use of unleavened bread for the Eucharist by the Armenian Orthodox actually predates the Roman use of unleavened bread by a few centuries.  I've heard it has something to do with Christ being without sin.  Yeast or leaven evidently represent sin.
 

hey thanks for mentioning that.   I was wondering about this for the last few years.
Logged

Ghazar
Byzantine Armenian Christian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 215


"Ghazaros, toors yegoor:" "Lazarus, come forth."


WWW
« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2005, 10:31:21 AM »

Djrak,

This appears to be the translation I was referring to of my Diocese.ÂÂ  I didn't know it was available in full on-line.ÂÂ  Thank you, I'll place a link for it on my site.ÂÂ  I did notice a couple modifications to the standard text to accomadate the demands of radical feminists for "inclusive language" (e.g. using "humankind" instead of the standard English word "mankind").ÂÂ  But besides this, its a very accurate translation and well written: the best available in English, I believe.ÂÂ  Was there something about it which made you think it was not a good translation?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2005, 10:36:02 AM by Ghazar » Logged

Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Lazarus Der-Ghazarian,
Byzantine Catholic Church, Eparchy of Parma
St. Gregory the Illuminator Institute:
www.looys.net
djrak
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 191

"Do not put out the Spirit's fire" - 1 Thess 5:19


WWW
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2005, 03:01:04 AM »

Was there something about it which made you think it was not a good translation?
i may be mistaken, but doesn't "yergrbakestsouk" mean to "kiss the ground" or is it just a way of saying bow?
Logged

"Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" - John 14:9
Ghazar
Byzantine Armenian Christian
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 215


"Ghazaros, toors yegoor:" "Lazarus, come forth."


WWW
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2005, 07:41:52 PM »

i may be mistaken, but doesn't "yergrbakestsouk" mean to "kiss the ground" or is it just a way of saying bow?

Djrak,

Probably, it literally does.ÂÂ  I think the equivalent Greek word also connotes to "kiss the ground" which is probably where we got the phrase.ÂÂ  But all of the Armenian Churches that I know of take it to practically mean to "bow."ÂÂ  Thus, this is how it is translated and we all bow and touch the ground when the sargavakn (deacons) invite us to "bow down to God."ÂÂ  Does your Church actually "kiss the ground" during the Badarak?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2005, 07:43:04 PM by Ghazar » Logged

Trusting in Christ's Inextinguishable Light,
Rev. Sub-Deacon Lazarus Der-Ghazarian,
Byzantine Catholic Church, Eparchy of Parma
St. Gregory the Illuminator Institute:
www.looys.net
Tags: Armenian Church icons kneeling pews organ communion persecution Armenian Genocide azymes 
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.147 seconds with 73 queries.