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Salpy
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« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2005, 09:57:20 PM »

"yergrbakestsook" does mean to "kiss the ground," in Classical Armenian.  It means we are supposed to do the full prostration, with the forehead to the ground.  Who knows?  Maybe in the old days, people literally kissed the ground as they bowed.  I have always loved that word, as a wonderful expression of humility.  Unfortunately, now that we have pews in our churches, no one does the full prostrations anymore.  It's sad.  I'm always telling people, if I were Queen for a Day I'd pull out all the pews and organs from the churches.  Whenever I have been in a church without pews (Coptic or OCA) I have always experienced a deeper feeling of worship, as I and the other people are free to bow as we are supposed to.
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« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2005, 02:32:56 AM »

Djrak,

Probably, it literally does.ÂÂ  I think the equivalent Greek word also connotes to "kiss the ground" which is probably where we got the phrase.ÂÂ  But all of the Armenian Churches that I know of take it to practically mean to "bow."ÂÂ  Thus, this is how it is translated and we all bow and touch the ground when the sargavakn (deacons) invite us to "bow down to God."ÂÂ  Does your Church actually "kiss the ground" during the Badarak?
some people touch the ground then kiss their hand instead of atually kissing the ground, some people bow, some nod, and some stay still. Undecided
maybe the original way was to actually kiss the ground?
or maybe like you said it just means to bow
either way the translation should say "kiss the ground" since there is a word for "bow" in armenian and that one is not used there (like "khonarhil")
i heard back in the days there were no seats in churches and people used to stand most of the time and sit on the ground instead of seats. So "kiss the ground" doesnt sound too outrageous.
and some priests, those in front of the altar bow all the way down, can't say if they kiss the ground or not, i can't really see from the back.
 
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« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2005, 02:38:46 AM »

"yergrbakestsook" does mean to "kiss the ground," in Classical Armenian.ÂÂ  It means we are supposed to do the full prostration, with the forehead to the ground.ÂÂ  Who knows?ÂÂ  Maybe in the old days, people literally kissed the ground as they bowed.ÂÂ
yeah, we're on the same wavelength
Quote
I have always loved that word, as a wonderful expression of humility.ÂÂ  Unfortunately, now that we have pews in our churches, no one does the full prostrations anymore.ÂÂ  It's sad.
i even heard that people use to bring their own sheets or pillows to sit on
Quote
ÂÂ  I'm always telling people, if I were Queen for a Day I'd pull out all the pews and organs from the churches.
i got your back
Quote
Whenever I have been in a church without pews (Coptic or OCA) I have always experienced a deeper feeling of worship, as I and the other people are free to bow as we are supposed to.
the coptic church i've been to has pews, are there seriously still churches without them, where people sit on the ground? i'd really like to visit one someday.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2005, 02:39:35 AM by djrak » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2005, 10:17:52 AM »

Quote
the coptic church i've been to has pews, are there seriously still churches without them, where people sit on the ground? i'd really like to visit one someday.

The OCA cathedral in Dallas doesn't have them, and neither do either of the Russian churches here in Houston. People don't sit on the ground, though -- they stand. If you need to sit, you can always fight a place on the bench in the back with the babas.
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« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2005, 01:57:01 PM »

The Coptic parish churches I have been to have pews, but the churches at St. Anthony Coptic Monastery don't have them.  There is an OCA cathedral in Los Angeles I have visited that doesn't have pews. As I said, I really like the feeling you get when you are in such a church.  If someone really is not well enough to stand the whole time, there are seats in the back or along the sides, so it really does not create a hardship.

The problem with pews, in addition to making the full prostrations hard or impossible, is that they also create an "audience" mentality.  People feel they are in a theater to watch a show or listen to a concert.  They stand there or sit there motionless, without singing or bowing or participating in any way in the liturgy.  The congregation, which used to worship, has now been turned into spectators. 

And when the liturgy is not as interesting as the latest Tom Cruise action movie, people complain about the liturgy being boring and too long.  The result is that there is some actual talk now about shortening the liturgy because it is "too long."  What concerns me is that this talk is not only coming from the laity, but from a number of priests.

How can the liturgy be too long?  What horrible thing has God done to deserve less worship?  People need to realize that the purpose of the liturgy is not to entertain ourselves, but to worship God.  We don't go in order to get something out of it for ourselves.  We go in order to give ourselves to God.

Forgive me if it sounds like I am being judgemental of others.  That is not my intention.  In fact, I have to admit that there are Sundays when I find myself just standing or sitting there, not singing or bowing either.  I don't experience that, however, when I am in a church that doesn't have pews.  I find that in those churches, people more actively participate in the liturgy, myself included.

Does anyone else experience that, or is it just me?
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« Reply #50 on: July 29, 2005, 03:53:48 PM »

How can the liturgy be too long?
this sais it all.

people complain about it being too long, about it being in a non-familiar language,people complain about everything.
Someone actally told me, why dont we have liturgy booklets in the back of pews so we can follow. GO GET IT FROM THE LIBRARY!!! i think they already did cut it short there's a lot of the original that's excluded now, there are a lot of things we only recite half of.

Salpy, there's an mp3 sermon on-line from a pasadena priest about the subject, i'm sure you've checked it out, the guy's on fire, there's also a written article about the liturgy being work or an active thing as opposed to an entertainment show like you said.

lazyness is such a trap. It draw you further away from the Light and deeper into self-satisfaction and uselessness.

I pray for the few TRUE believers (including clergy) that are left and keep the flame of faith alive. Our faith is so precious, if only they knew, that's what i tell people all the time:
"IF ONLY YOU KNEW!"
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« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2005, 11:18:58 AM »

this sais it all.

people complain about it being too long, about it being in a non-familiar language,people complain about everything.
Someone actally told me, why dont we have liturgy booklets in the back of pews so we can follow. GO GET IT FROM THE LIBRARY!!! i think they already did cut it short there's a lot of the original that's excluded now, there are a lot of things we only recite half of.

Salpy, there's an mp3 sermon on-line from a pasadena priest about the subject, i'm sure you've checked it out, the guy's on fire, there's also a written article about the liturgy being work or an active thing as opposed to an entertainment show like you said.

lazyness is such a trap. It draw you further away from the Light and deeper into self-satisfaction and uselessness.

I pray for the few TRUE believers (including clergy) that are left and keep the flame of faith alive. Our faith is so precious, if only they knew, that's what i tell people all the time:
"IF ONLY YOU KNEW!"


The locals must do it differently.   There is like 2 hours.     They do not do the morning matins service that is typical of most Orthodox churches.   They start at 10:30 with the badarak.   Although I've seen other Armenian churches being talked about online that have a 3 hour service.   So all I can think is the American Armenians cut out their Matins service to accomodate complaints that the service is too long.
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« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2005, 03:22:56 PM »

Actually, at my church we do matins early in the morning before the liturgy.  I don't know what other churches do, though.  The matins service is a little over an hour.  It starts before 9:00 a.m. and ends a little after 10:00.  Most people don't attend matins, mostly the old ladies ("mairigs.")  I'm usually there in time for matins, but, as I volunteer for a lot of things, I'm usually running around the church grounds setting stuff up and helping out at that time.  I have that Mary vs. Martha conflict going on
sometimes.

The liturgy starts right after matins and goes for about 2 hours or 2 1/2 hours.  It is a beautiful liturgy and it gets me when I hear people talk about it being too long.  We have, as djrak indicated, already trimmed it.  Most Sundays, for example, our priest does not do the vesting part at the beginning, but starts later at the enarxis.  I guess that is historically not too incorrect, as I think that is where the liturgy used to start before the Crusades.  It is where the EO's start their liturgy. It's where the priest says "Blessed be the kingdom of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

Still, by shortening the liturgy, what message are we giving people?  Aren't we saying that we have better things to do with our Sunday than worship?  Aren't we saying that it's O.K. to give God just a little bit of ourselves and our time?

Another place where the liturgy has been trimmed is the litanies.  We now omit most of the saints' names.  How do we expect them to pray for us?  How do we expect people to learn of the saints when their names are omitted from the liturgy?

With regard to the liturgy book issue raised by djrak, we have had liturgy books in our pews for years.  People still complain about not understanding the liturgy.  It seems holding a book and reading it is too much trouble.  So we now have a power point screen toward the front where people can read the words of the liturgy in the Classical Armenian, transliterated into English letters, and translated into both modern Armenian and English.  It is easy, all you have to do is stand there and read.  So where are all these people who said they don't come to church because they can't understand the liturgy?  They still aren't coming.  It seems now they can't come because it is too long.

I guess this is what happened about eighty years ago when the Church put organs and pews into the churches.  People must have complained about standing, so the Church put pews in the churches.  Then the same people said they still can't come to church because the music isn't as pretty as that of the Protestants and Catholics who have organs.  So the Church put organs into the churches.  Then, the same people said they still can't come because the liturgy is in Classical Armenian and they can't understand it.  So the Church put liturgy books in the pews.  I can remember as a child going to my grandfather's church and seeing the liturgy books in the pews, so they have been there for a while, at least here in the U.S.

However, even with a power point screen spoon feeding the liturgy to people, they still won't come.  The latest excuse is that the liturgy is too long.  If the Catholics can have a quick in and out mass, why can't we?

What do you want to bet, if our church shortened the liturgy to a half hour (and I am sometimes afraid they are going to do that) people will just find another excuse and still not come.

The bottom line is that the people who are not coming to church don't come because they are not committed to God and don't want to spend Sunday worshipping Him.  Nothing is going to get these people to come to church, except reaching them with the message that they need to commit themselves to God and spend some time worshipping Him.  After all, He spent 3 hours dying on a cross for us.  Is it too much for us to spend 2 hours a week with Him?

So that is the challenge facing our Church.  Our church leaders can do one of the following:  1. Work to change the hearts of the people so they will love God and want to be with Him; or 2. Accommodate the hardness of people's hearts toward God by shortening the liturgy even further and sending the message that we really do have better things to do than worship God.

Forgive me for going on like this.  Again, I don't mean to be judgemental.  I can be guilty of spiritual laziness as much as anyone.  It is just that these issues regarding the liturgy frustrate me and I need to vent.
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« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2005, 03:55:13 PM »

Salpy, that's really sad about the powerpoint thing. But there's something we should always remember that the people who complain can be of 2 types, those who dont care about God and only do it for show off or other stupid reasons and those who do care but not enough, what i'm saying is: it's lack of spiritual growth some peple will grow to love worship more gradually but where they are right now it may seem long or boring. What we lack, other than faith, is education and discipline which leads to faith if implemented properly.

It's like someone singing sitting down, he will reach a point where he has to stand up then move around move freely wave his hands put all his soul out there, go all out.

You cant do that in a half hour liturgy with pews and people chatting.

People need to give their hearts to God so that God makes the seed of faith grow in them , so that they start loving Him more and desire true worship, you cant force it on people. It is personal, collective and full expression physical, mental and spiritual the entire church, the living and the dead.

What still amazes me is how God pours his priceless grace on us despite all of this going on righjt there and then. It makes me feel ashamed, unworthy and speechless. Judgement will be hard.
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« Reply #54 on: July 31, 2005, 03:48:04 PM »

Dear Friends,

This might help to clarify why in the Armenian Church we "bow" instead of "kissing the ground" on the Lord's Day.

Frequently Asked Questions:ÂÂ  On Kneeling

From the book:ÂÂ  Frequently Asked Questions about the Armenian Church
by the Very Rev. Fr. Krikor Maksoudian
(by Order of His Eminence Archbishop Khajag Barsamian, Primate)

-When should the faithful kneel down during the celebration of the Divine Liturgy?

In our churches in the United States, it has-become traditional to kneel at certain times during the celebration of the Divine Liturgy. These include:

a) the Great Entrance (when the chalice is brought to the celebrant);
b) the Inclination (after Hayr mer);
c) the Fraction (when Der Voghormya is chanted);
d) the Communion (when only the celebrant and two attendants on his left and right side kneel, holding a cloth);
e) the Confession.

Yet, in most of our churches abroad neither the celebrant nor the congregation kneel during the celebration of the Divine Liturgy. The exceptions are d) and e) cited above.
There are different ways of expressing piety in church. People obviously kneel to pray before God and to express the awe and respect that they feel in their hearts. Even in Armenian churches abroad, in places like Holy Etchmiadzin and Jerusalem one can see old people participating in the entire Divine Liturgy on their knees.

The Church, however, reserves kneeling for a specific purpose, which we shall see a little later. As for kneeling on Sundays, which is the Lord's Day when the Divine Liturgy is celebrated, the 318 bishops participating in the Holy Council of Nicaea (the first Ecumenical Council that met in AD. 325) bid the following:

Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord's Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing. (Canon XX)

The Armenian Book of Canons translates the same canon with a minor variation: instead of saying "and in the days of Pentecost," it reads: "and in the days until Pentecost" The same ordinance is repeated in Canon III, attributed to the late fifth century Catholicos Hovhannes Mantagoonnee, and, also in later canons.

The reason for not kneeling in church "on the Lord's Day and in the days of [or until] Pentecost" is given by the 12th and 13th century Armenian theologian Vartan Vartabed Aykegtsee:
But you, Brother, take note that Sunday is a superior, glorious and awe inspiring [day of] honor, since the books inspired by the [Holy] Spirit do not allow kneeling on that day [nor] touching the forehead to the ground, as we do on the [remaining] six days [of the week], but [they instruct us] to worship God on foot, by slightly bowing [the head] and only extending the tips of the fingers to the ground. . . We do not prostrate ourselves on the ground, but worship God standing, since Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday and he raised us on our feet from the destruction of sins and the perdition of idolatry.

It is clear from Vartan Vartabed's treatise that on Sundays when the priest (during the morning services) and the deacon (during the Divine Liturgy) say/chant "Let us bow down unto God," the congregation's response should be a bow (1), and if possible the faithful must extend the fingertips of their right hand to the ground and touch it, after which they must stand and cross themselves, as is still the custom in many places and with many people. Vartan Vartabed explains the symbolism of kneeling in church as follows:

Our father Adam, deceived by the evil one, fell [headlong] from sublime heights into this accursed world. In his example we are born from the womb of our mother in a head down position and fall into this world, resembling our [fore] father Adam. . . For the reason that Adam fell headlong into the world, we kneel before God for six days, with our forehead touching the ground.

-Should we kneel down when the Divine Liturgy is celebrated on a weekday, for example on January 6th or Vartanants Day?

The answer is still no, since the day on which the Divine Liturgy is celebrated, be it a Sunday or a weekday, is always considered to be the Lord's Day in our tradition and is referred to as "Geeragee [Sunday]." The church calendar [Donatsooyts, Jerusalem, 1915] lists the following weekdays as Geeragee in addition to the 52 Sundays during the year, as well as January 5th, January 6th and Easter eve:

.The Second day of Theophany (the day after Armenian Christmas)
.The eighth day of Theophany (Christ's circumcision)
.February 14th (Presentation of the Lord in the temple)
.Holy Thursday
.April 7th - the Annunciation
.Ascension Thursday (forty days after Easter)
.Saturday - the Invention of the relics of St. Gregory the Illuminator
.Monday after the Transfiguration Sunday
.Monday after the Assumption Sunday
.Monday after the Exaltation of the Holy Cross
.September 8th - the Birth of the Holy Virgin
.November 21 st - the Presentation of the Holy Virgin in the temple
.December 9th - the Conception of the Holy Virgin
.Saturday - Sts. Thaddeus and Bartholomew (usually in early December)

.Optional are the following days:
.Saturday - the feast of the Holy Archangels
.Saturday - St. Thaddeus and Princess Santookhd
.Saturday - St. Gregory the Illuminator's entry into the pit
.Saturday - St. Gregory the Illuminator's coming out of the pit
.Thursday - St. Vartanants Saturday - Holy Translators
.(The feasts with no set dates are movable.)

Besides these days, the Divine Liturgy can be celebrated on special occasions only with the permission of the diocesan Primate. As an example one can cite the name day of a church, or the funerary rites for a clergyman. Medieval monasteries traditionally celebrated the Divine Liturgy on weekdays for the salvation of the souls of deceased benefactors.

-If it was not traditional to kneel, did our forefathers stand at confession?

They kneeled at confession, but confession was not held during the Divine Liturgy. People confessed their sins to the priest on weekdays, usually in the church vestry. After the confession they did penance, and when they felt ready, they received Holy Communion on Sunday. In many parishes the priests had special days during the week when they received the faithful for confession.

-If kneeling is not acceptable on Sundays, why does the celebrant kneel to administer Holy Communion?

The celebrant administrating Holy Communion is really not in a kneeling position, since he rests only on his right knee and places the base of the Holy Chalice on his left knee, which is in a raised position. We don't consider that a kneeling position in our church.
The kneeling required from the candidates at the time of ordinations is a part of the ordination ceremony. While the candidate kneels, the congregation continues to stand. This clearly indicates that the kneeling, which is done by the candidate, is not required from the congregation as a part of common worship.

When the celebrant is a bishop, at the beginning of the liturgy he ascends the bema and proceeding to the front of the altar, he kneels to read the two prayers of St. Gregory of Nareg. This tradition is of a much later origin, probably taken from the Western Church, in order to enhance the mystical effect of the festive occasion. The congregation remains standing.

On ordinary Sundays, the celebrant, even if he is a bishop, reads these prayers in a standing position behind the closed curtain.
pgs. 142-146
______________________________________________________

Hope this helps.

p.s.ÂÂ  I fully concur with the comments about how sad it is that some have a "fast-food" mentality when it comes to Divine Worship.ÂÂ  Thank God our leaders in the Church have not been swayed to adopt such foolishness.ÂÂ  I too would love to see the pews go back to their inventors: the Protestants, and the organs return to our Latin brethren from whence they came.ÂÂ  I must confess that I have a secret fantasy about sneaking in one Lord's Day before the Badarak and sabotaging our own parish's organ just so I can hear the Badarak acapella as it was originaly intended.ÂÂ  The few times I've been to a Soorp Badarak where the organ was not operating, I was treated to a strickingly beautiful celebration of the Liturgy.ÂÂ  Finally, our parish also offers Matins weekly before the Soorp Badarak.
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« Reply #55 on: July 31, 2005, 04:55:55 PM »

Thank you Ghazaros for that information, especially this:
Quote
only extending the tips of the fingers to the ground

many people do that in my church, i use to think it's a half-bow.
Even in Armenian churches abroad, in places like Holy Etchmiadzin and Jerusalem one can see old people participating in the entire Divine Liturgy on their knees.
That's how my grandmother does it, she's from Jerusalem, she's in cali now and goes to the coptic church there since there isnt an armenian one nearby.

Quote
I must confess that I have a secret fantasy about sneaking in one Lord's Day before the Badarak and sabotaging our own parish's organ just so I can hear the Badarak acapella as it was originaly intended.ÂÂ  The few times I've been to a Soorp Badarak where the organ was not operating, I was treated to a strickingly beautiful celebration of the Liturgy.
this summer there is no choir or organ at our church here since everyone's on vacation, there's an old guy with a opera voice who volunteers to lead and it's simply beautiful

Quote
Finally, our parish also offers Matins weekly before the Soorp Badarak.
what are the sharagans they sing on Matins? can i get them from the net?
I can tell it's mostly prayers for teh Saints and the Virgin Mary's intercession but cant understand much else other than it's a mini-badarak conducted by the "sargavaks" and "tbir"s. I Try to make it that early but usually fail. It's important to prepare yourself for the badarak. Kind of like an introduction, prayer time.
because when the badarak starts all our focus should be on God and not ourselves and our needs or prayers.
Quote
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« Reply #56 on: July 31, 2005, 11:43:34 PM »

Thank you , Ghazaros, I learned a lot!

Djrak, regarding Matins:

If you have an Armenian bookstore with religious books near you, you can get a jhamakirk (I wish I had Armenian fonts, but I don't, so you have to try to figure out what I am writing with English letters.)  The jhamakirk (called "book of hours" in English) has all the services, including Matins.  There are smaller, abbreviated, jhamakirks out there.  One that was published in Lebanon was called "krbani jhamakirk" ("pocket jhamakirk.")  It was printed by G. Doniguian & Fils in Beirut.

I have never been able to follow a matins service.  There are so many variables, I get confused.  I'm probably doing something wrong.  One of the hymns sung toward the end of the service, however, is quite beautiful:  "Park ee partzoons Asdoodzo" ("Glory to God in the highest.")  I think all liturgical churches sing this one, not just the Armenian Church.  Another beautiful one is "Aravod Loosoh."  I haven't seen these on the internet.  It would be cool if they were.
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« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2005, 01:59:55 AM »

Actually at my Coptic church we have a power point thing exactly what Salpy described and I love it.    It would be so much harder trying to do service as a convert without it (and this goes doubly for my girl friend who just converted).    And the youth in America really need that since their Arabic isn't so good, and their Coptic can be rusty.


This sort of thing is a God send for folks who were born in America.   And have less exposure to the native and liturgical tongue.
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« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2005, 02:04:40 AM »

Thank you , Ghazaros, I learned a lot!

Djrak, regarding Matins:

If you have an Armenian bookstore with religious books near you, you can get a jhamakirk (I wish I had Armenian fonts, but I don't, so you have to try to figure out what I am writing with English letters.)ÂÂ  The jhamakirk (called "book of hours" in English) has all the services, including Matins.ÂÂ  There are smaller, abbreviated, jhamakirks out there.ÂÂ  One that was published in Lebanon was called "krbani jhamakirk" ("pocket jhamakirk.")ÂÂ  It was printed by G. Doniguian & Fils in Beirut.

I have never been able to follow a matins service.ÂÂ  There are so many variables, I get confused.ÂÂ  I'm probably doing something wrong.ÂÂ  One of the hymns sung toward the end of the service, however, is quite beautiful:ÂÂ  "Park ee partzoons Asdoodzo" ("Glory to God in the highest.")ÂÂ  I think all liturgical churches sing this one, not just the Armenian Church.ÂÂ  Another beautiful one is "Aravod Loosoh."ÂÂ  I haven't seen these on the internet.ÂÂ  It would be cool if they were.
so that's what they're called. I have a hard cover one with just the liturgy with ashkharapar on one page and krapar on the adjacent one it's by the late archbishop Zareh Aznavourian. But Matins are not included. I have to look for one with Matins

btw i know aravod looso, we use to sing it in high school instead of hayr mer.
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« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2005, 02:14:05 AM »

Actually at my Coptic church we have a power point thing exactly what Salpy described and I love it.  ÃƒÆ’‚  It would be so much harder trying to do service as a convert without it (and this goes doubly for my girl friend who just converted).  ÃƒÆ’‚  And the youth in America really need that since their Arabic isn't so good, and their Coptic can be rusty.


This sort of thing is a God send for folks who were born in America.  ÃƒÆ’‚ And have less exposure to the native and liturgical tongue.
i can imagine how hard it must be for americans to learn arabic. 
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« Reply #60 on: August 01, 2005, 02:14:23 AM »


The liturgy starts right after matins and goes for about 2 hours or 2 1/2 hours.ÂÂ  It is a beautiful liturgy and it gets me when I hear people talk about it being too long.ÂÂ  We have, as djrak indicated, already trimmed it.ÂÂ  Most Sundays, for example, our priest does not do the vesting part at the beginning, but starts later at the enarxis.ÂÂ  I guess that is historically not too incorrect, as I think that is where the liturgy used to start before the Crusades.ÂÂ  It is where the EO's start their liturgy. It's where the priest says "Blessed be the kingdom of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

Still, by shortening the liturgy, what message are we giving people?ÂÂ  Aren't we saying that we have better things to do with our Sunday than worship?ÂÂ  Aren't we saying that it's O.K. to give God just a little bit of ourselves and our time?


My priest handles this by reminding people that back in the early days church was an all night affair in addition to the morning divine liturgy (They prayed most of the night from vespers to matins, only stopping for 2 hours in the middle of the morning to take a break.).

And well we do have an understanding. ÂÂ  People are able to come to church late. ÂÂ  Just as long as they come before the reading of the gospel they can take communion. ÂÂ  That is only 1 hour of liturgy with maybe a 20 minute sermon. ÂÂ  So my priest has refered to the church as a buffet. ÂÂ  Those that aren't very hungry only come for that minumum time. ÂÂ  But the hungry ones come for the full 3.5 to 4 hour service, and maybe even do vespers on top of that. ÂÂ  So the reasoning is, Why should we deprive the hungry for those that want to do the minimum. ÂÂ  If people want a short service then they can just come to church late. ÂÂ (Even though we wish this wasn't done as much as it is).
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« Reply #61 on: August 02, 2005, 11:04:18 PM »

...and now for a different question...

In the Armenian tradition, are feast days that would normally occur during the week  (i.e. Dormition)transferred to the closest Sunday? From the few American Armenian sites I have visited, it seems to be the case.

If this occurs, is this just a North American thing, or does it happen in Armenia as well?


Secondly, are the Armenians on the "new" calender in North America but on the "old" calender in Armenia.

Thanks,
Basil
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« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2005, 12:23:22 AM »

Christmas is always on January 6, no matter what day of the week it is.  I've heard that there are a few parishes here in the U.S. which transfer it to the nearest Sunday, but that is improper.  Dormition, Transfiguration Day and The Exaltation of the Holy Cross are on the nearest Sunday, at least here in the U.S.  I don't know about Armenia.

I know the Armenian Church in Jerusalem is still on the old calendar.  I am not sure about Armenia, though.  Here in the U.S. we are new calendar.
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« Reply #63 on: August 03, 2005, 04:30:09 AM »

I never understood why people make such a big deal out of calenders.

Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.-John 4:21
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« Reply #64 on: August 03, 2005, 08:49:40 AM »

I'm going to go WAY off topic for a second and just make a comment...

I just finished reading "Sword of the Prophet" by Serge Trifkovic.  He gives such a vivid account of the Armenian Orthodox suffering at the hands of Muslim Turks (and Muslim Arabs too).

I've known about the genocide committed against the beloved Armenians, but it really hit home when I read it in this book.  I was SO deeply disgusted and appaulled at the cruelty, but moreso at the fact that this HOLOCAUST has remained so quiet.  I am ashamed to have not known more about the subject.

God Bless all the Armenian Orthodox martyrs.
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« Reply #65 on: August 03, 2005, 09:50:51 AM »

SouthSerb99,
Have you checked out our member tOm_Dr's post about the Blight of Asia over in the Reviews Board?

Seems the western powers were still playing their 19th Century "Great Game" to contain Russia( and probably still are). That one doesn't read the true history becomes obvious.
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« Reply #66 on: August 03, 2005, 09:54:40 AM »

I'm going to go WAY off topic for a second and just make a comment...

I just finished reading "Sword of the Prophet" by Serge Trifkovic.ÂÂ  He gives such a vivid account of the Armenian Orthodox suffering at the hands of Muslim Turks (and Muslim Arabs too).

I've known about the genocide committed against the beloved Armenians, but it really hit home when I read it in this book.ÂÂ  I was SO deeply disgusted and appaulled at the cruelty, but moreso at the fact that this HOLOCAUST has remained so quiet.ÂÂ  I am ashamed to have not known more about the subject.

God Bless all the Armenian Orthodox martyrs.

God Bless you and your people southserb. I always use to look at it as a racial thing after i came to Christ i started seeing what happenned to our people and i saw something completely different.
Armenian Orthodox were driven to the desert straight away, protestants were protected by the US and catholics by Europe but they soon followed.
My great grandfather was a judge in the supreme court, he was hung with all of his colleagues my grandfather witnessed it he ran away and was raised by bedouins in the desert ...
My other grandfather was a soldier in the army (WWI) and they started killing all armenian soldiers in their own army, my grandfather ran away and came to Syria, stories and testimonies are so many and everywhere in the media. It hasnt stopped. Even today Armenians in Turkey are discremenated, renovations of ancient armenian ruins are done with the removal of all trace of christianity( city of Ani, city of 1001 churches).
we are a remnant of the first christian nation, who has endured everything for faith, throughout our history, we've always been under attack because of our faith. the genocide was the peak. I remember this testimony by this old guy who, when young in the genocide, was following watching his parents from far being driven in the desert with a group among which there's a priest. the soldier tells them that he has to kill them after making them walk in the desert for days without food or drink, and the priest asks for a final prayer and he makes a wafer out of wheat from the fields and everyone participates in the Lord's supper before execution.
I feel so ashamed when i see my people desert their faith so easily. I was almost going to be one of them. God have mercy on us.
Turks not only deny it but even say that it was Armenians who massacred Turks  Undecided God have mercy on them for they do not know what they do. It's a terrible thing to be living in darkness. Denial is worse. I pray that He opens their hearts to repentance for their souls' sake.
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« Reply #67 on: August 03, 2005, 10:11:39 AM »

Their denial is ridiculous and based upon a world which is ignorant to the horrendous suffering of the Armenian Orthodox at the hands of Muslims.  Unfortunately, I have been a part of that ignorant world up until recently.

I am committed to learning more about this tragedy.
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« Reply #68 on: August 03, 2005, 10:12:26 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=6593.msg89312#msg89312 date=1123077051]
SouthSerb99,
Have you checked out our member tOm_Dr's post about the Blight of Asia over in the Reviews Board?

Seems the western powers were still playing their 19th Century "Great Game" to contain Russia( and probably still are). That one doesn't read the true history becomes obvious.
[/quote]

No, I will check it out now.
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« Reply #69 on: August 03, 2005, 11:56:43 AM »

I downloaded the book, I will print it and it will be train reading.  Thank you.
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