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djrak
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« on: July 06, 2005, 08:38:19 AM »

hey i'm new here and was wondering if there are any armenians here, i did come across a few armenian names.
i got attracted to the orthodox church not too long ago and discovered what a great treasure it is, and was wondering if you people know what i'm talking about, or if there's anyone out there who can relate...
peace
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 08:40:19 AM by djrak » Logged

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sin_vladimirov
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« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2005, 09:05:59 AM »

Welcome to OC.net.


Oh brother, don't I know what you are talking about.

There is so much in Orthodoxy that is just beyond of all those who are due to wrong science or action just out of Her.

The meanings behind the symbols and types; the meaning behind the words and actions; the depth, width and hight of Theology; the beauty of faith and in all of all and through all the ever present and pure Love of God for His Bride and care of Head for His Body is just beyond all those sectarian and selfish, human and philosophical opinions that desert of this world thinks to be "bible believing Christianity".

I love Orthodoxy.

It is true saying of St. Cyprian:
"No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother".

So true.
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« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2005, 09:41:24 AM »

the depth, width and hight of Theology
3D theology
Quote
the beauty of faith and in all of all and through all the ever present and pure Love of God for His Bride and care of Head for His Body is just beyond all those sectarian and selfish, human and philosophical opinions that desert of this world thinks to be "bible believing Christianity".
yes, yes, yes, couldnt have said it better myself Grin
although selfishness and church politics has its place there too :'( but it's simply not the same, it's as if God in some mysterious way is in control of things and only allows the bad things for a while for us to lean a lesson as a church.

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I love Orthodoxy.
Amen

Quote
It is true saying of St. Cyprian:
"No one can have God as Father who does not have the Church as Mother".

So true.
a little extreme but has a lot of truth in it.
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« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2005, 09:51:30 AM »

...although selfishness and church politics has its place there too...
To true, there are many things that can and should be changed, but not OF the Church but IN he Church... I mean, human aspect can always be better. Thankfully Church is Divine also (so we can't destroy her as much as satan would like us too).

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...a little extreme but has a lot of truth in it...
I love extreme LOL.

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« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2005, 01:15:57 PM »

I am Armenian Orthodox.  So is Ghazaros.  It used to be that you could list your religion by your name.  I don't know what happened to that.

Are you interested in the Armenian Church?  It is a beautiful Church, but the one drawback for non-Armenians is that we don't have English liturgies. Still, Armenian is not a hard language.  If I can speak it, anyone can. Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2005, 01:23:09 PM »

I am Armenian Orthodox.ÂÂ  So is Ghazaros.ÂÂ  It used to be that you could list your religion by your name.ÂÂ  I don't know what happened to that.

Are you interested in the Armenian Church?ÂÂ  It is a beautiful Church, but the one drawback for non-Armenians is that we don't have English liturgies. Still, Armenian is not a hard language.ÂÂ  If I can speak it, anyone can. Smiley
parev Salpy,
i am armenian, my name is Sebouh. I am not a "convert" but in a sense i feel like one.
i've never had religious education and after becoming a real christian (born-again or whatever you want to call it) i went to other churches and communities for the truth as i saw "legalism" and only tradition in our church and it was only after a few accidents and experiences that i got attracted to our church... and i am very interrested about it now and orthodoxy in general
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« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2005, 04:40:54 PM »

so Salpy where are you from? did i scare you off? Undecided
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« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2005, 04:43:31 PM »

No, you didn't scare me off.ÂÂ  I was just preoccupied.ÂÂ  

Welcome back to the Armenian Church!

I was actually raised in a Protestant church, since my dad is not Armenian.  I got plenty of exposure, however, to the Armenian Church through my mom's parents and as a young adult I converted.

On the surface, the Armenian Church can look like an ethnic club (some people would like to turn it into that.)  But when you really get involved, study the beliefs and immerse yourself in the badarak, you find a deep well of spirituality which doesn't exist in any form of Protestantism.

Check out our brother Ghazaros' website:  http://www.geocities.com/derghazar/index.html   He also is  someone who spent time outside of the Armenian Church and had to "find his way home."   ÃƒÆ’‚ It's a pretty cool website.
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« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2005, 04:50:40 PM »

hey thanks for the link i'll check it out

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« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2005, 05:44:12 PM »

hey there are some great articles on his site! i'm impressed!
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« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2005, 08:50:33 PM »

Not too far from my house is the Holy Trinity Armenian Church. I was interested in the Liturgy so I decided to check it out.
The baradark was a mixture between Byzantine, Syrian, and Latin Tradition which was really really cool. For example, the Armenian bishop hat looks very much like a Catholic mitre and the clothing is very much Byzantine. Also, the liturgy itself has some byzantine elements like: "Let us stand aright, let us stand well....in the fear of God." etc.

What I found interesting was that there are no icons except 1 of the Virgin Mary at the altar. Also, the altar girls or 'tubirs' are a really nice touch.Correct me if I'm wrong but they can serve at the altar until they reach puberty, correct?

I also noticed that the music (before Komitas or anyone else harmonized it) had the drone/bass liek the Greek Byzantine chanting.

As far as I know, the church of Georgia which is very close in custom and language to Armenia used to be OO but then in the Middle ages was brought into communion with the EO churches.

Oh yeah and your architecture is awesome 2.
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« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2005, 10:16:50 PM »

My priest told me something interesting about the bishop's mitre.  Prior to the crusades, Armenian bishops wore crowns, just like Greek bishops do.  However, during the crusades, the Armenian bishops saw the mitres the Catholic bishops wore and decided to wear them also.  I guess they thought they were cool looking.  The bishops didn't want to just throw out their nice crowns, however, so they passed them down to the priests.  That is why today Armenian priests wear crowns that look like the ones Greek bishops wear and Armenian bishops wear Catholic looking mitres.

I think altar girls are a late 20th century addition.  We have them at my church and I know some people think it isn't right.  You are correct that they don't continue to serve when they get to be teenagers. 

Armenian churches tend not to have as many icons as Coptic or Greek churches, but it varies from parish to parish.  The altar is supposed to have the icon of the Mother of God holding Christ.  Now and then, however, you'll see an Armenian church with a different icon above the altar.  I went to one near Boston once that had an icon of the Resurrection over the altar.  My church has about half a dozen icons besides the one above the altar.

The Georgian language is very different from Armenian, although their alphabet was invented by the same man, the Armenian saint Mesrob Mashdots.  Their architecture is somewhat similar to Armenian architecture. 

You are right that the Georgians used to be OO.  I think they rejected Chalcedon around the same time the Armenians did, during the first decade of the 6th century.  The Armenians rejected Chalcedon in the council of Dvin, and the Georgians were represented at that council, which means they either rejected it then, or had already rejected it. 

The Council of Dvin was called as a reaction to the fact that the Persian (Assyrian) Church, which had long held the christology of Theodore of Mopsuestia, had embraced Chalcedon and the tome of Leo as vindicating their position.  The Armenian Church had remained faithful to the christology of Alexandria and had accepted the Third Council, while the Persian Church had rejected it.  The Council of Dvin, in 506, anathematized both Nestorius (whom the Persian Church had embraced) and Eutyches, to show that they were not embracing the heresy of the latter.

I think it was two or three centuries later that the Georgians reversed their position and embraced Chalcedon.  I do not know why they did this, but it may have to do with the fact that the fifth council got rid of some of the more nestorian elements of Chalcedon (the three chapters) and reoriented it so it was a little more consistent with the third council.

Historically, the Armenians and Georgians have gotten along pretty well.  The Armenians in Georgia have been a significant minority there with very few problems.  However, recently, things have been a little tense.  The Georgians have been closing down or taking over Armenian churches.  Supposedly, this is being done in the name of Chalcedon, although I wonder if ethnic tension may play a role in it too.  In any event, it is not a happy situation.

Sorry for going on too long!  I don't know the answer to your musical question, as I know very little about music (except that I like listening to it.) 

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« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2005, 01:38:33 AM »

hey i'm new here and was wondering if there are any armenians here, i did come across a few armenian names.
i got attracted to the orthodox church not too long ago and discovered what a great treasure it is, and was wondering if you people know what i'm talking about, or if there's anyone out there who can relate...
peace

Welcome! I am not Armenian, however, I relate, because I have Armenian family thru marriage.... my origins are from Jordan.

Love the people and the Armenian culture.

Welcome and I hope you enjoy this forum.

In Christ,
Hadel
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« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2005, 03:05:13 AM »

What I found interesting was that there are no icons except 1 of the Virgin Mary at the altar. Also, the altar girls or 'tubirs' are a really nice touch.Correct me if I'm wrong but they can serve at the altar until they reach puberty, correct?
we dont have icons like the greek orthodox do... there are paintings and images in our churches but they arent icons. Salpy, correct me if i'm wrong.

Quote
I also noticed that the music (before Komitas or anyone else harmonized it) had the drone/bass liek the Greek Byzantine chanting.
Gomidas is the man! that priest was a genius!
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djrak
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« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2005, 03:13:25 AM »

Welcome! I am not Armenian, however, I relate, because I have Armenian family thru marriage.... my origins are from Jordan.

Love the people and the Armenian culture.

Welcome and I hope you enjoy this forum.

In Christ,
Hadel
Hey there Hadel, thank you for the warm welcome, Jordanian people are cool, very civilized.
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« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2005, 11:36:14 AM »

hey i'm new here and was wondering if there are any armenians here, i did come across a few armenian names.
i got attracted to the orthodox church not too long ago and discovered what a great treasure it is, and was wondering if you people know what i'm talking about, or if there's anyone out there who can relate...
peace


I think there are a few here.  ÃƒÆ’‚  I myself went to an armenian church for over 6 months.  ÃƒÆ’‚  By the way I wonder if we have met before on another web site perhaps (theooze.com)
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djrak
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« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2005, 12:45:59 PM »


I think there are a few here.  ÃƒÆ’‚  I myself went to an armenian church for over 6 months.  ÃƒÆ’‚  By the way I wonder if we have met before on another web site perhaps (theooze.com)
Addai, how's it goin, yeah it's me "flame"("djrak" in Armenian). i think i found this forum thru your links, thanks!
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« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2005, 01:00:25 PM »

Re icons in the Armenian church:

If you look at the illuminated manuscripts as well as what is left of the really ancient frescoes in some of the old churches, you'll see that the images are in an old, traditional style very similar to what you see in Greek icons.  During the 1700's, it became popular to imitate the naturalistic style of the western Europeans, and that eventually became the prevalent form of images to be seen in Armenian churches, especially in the diaspora after the Genocide.

I think there is a movement now toward bringing back the old style and I think that is a good thing.  I have heard there are schools of iconography now in Yerevan where they teach the traditional style to young people and it is becoming increasingly popular to put the traditional images in the churches over there.

In fact, about a year ago my church commissioned an icon of one of the apostles to be painted in Armenia. ÂÂ We have a relic of that saint and we wanted the icon so we could embed the relic in it for veneration. ÂÂ The icon is painted on wood in the old style, about 15 by 9 inches. ÂÂ We now have the icon with the relic embedded in it, on top of a stand in our church with glass on it so people can venerate the relic. ÂÂ  

A vocabulary lesson for the non-Armenians:  The images in Armenian churches, whether the traditional style or the western style, are called "sourp ngar" or "sourp badger."  Both mean "holy picture."
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« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2005, 01:10:26 PM »

hey Salpy i know about "trchnakir" (bird-letters) and little miniature drawings they use to have in manuscripts, but have never seen icons like the ones in greek orthodox churches.
i've also seen huge paintings in churches but again i believe icons are as you said venerated, or the person/saint represented in it right?
people do touch the painting and kiss them sometime thow, so i guess they venerate them right? hmm.... still a strange thing for me Undecided
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« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2005, 02:20:38 PM »

I think the Armenians have always had a stronger veneration for the Holy Cross than for holy pictures and our theology regarding images never became as developed or formalized as that of the Greeks.ÂÂ  Still, holy pictures have always been in Armenian churches and people have always been free to worship Christ or venerate His saints through them.ÂÂ  As you said, people kiss and touch them.ÂÂ  The deacons, as they cense the church, also make a point of censing the holy pictures.

For an example of an Armenian church in the U.S. which is trying to bring back the traditional style of iconography, see the website of St. John Church in Michigan:ÂÂ  http://www.stjohnsarmenianchurch.org/
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« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2005, 08:30:03 PM »

Last year because of my ex-girlfriend's family I attended an Armenian liturgy that was celebrated by a Uniat-Armenian bishop from Argentina who visited Mexico City's Armenian community (people of both confessions are under the care of the Catholic Uniat Bishop) and they had many elements brought from the Medieval Roman tradition as I could see:

- The first prayers (at the foot of the altar) that are performed by the priest and the servers..

- People kneel at the consecration and the eucharist is transumted when "this is my body.. this is my blood" are pronnounced like in the Roman Church.

- The Last Gospel is recited at the end of the liturgy. The French Church had adopted this practice as a proof of the orthodoxy of its priests to prevent that they were hidden Cathars or Jews. The Armenians adopted this during the time of the cruzades.

- Un-leavened bread (or leavened bread which looks unleavened) is used at the liturgy.

The Armenian Orthodox also have these Latin influences from what i know.
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« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2005, 01:57:55 AM »

The use of unleavened bread for the Eucharist by the Armenian Orthodox actually predates the Roman use of unleavened bread by a few centuries.  I've heard it has something to do with Christ being without sin.  Yeast or leaven evidently represent sin. 

Something else which is unique to the Armenian Church is the priest does not add water to the wine.  I think all other Orthodox do that.  Also, we don't use a communion spoon.  The priest just takes the Holy Body, which is already immersed in the Holy Blood, and puts it in the mouth of the faithful.

I've heard that the confession said by the priest before ascending the altar was borrowed from the Romans during the Crusades.

In some Armenian churches it is customary to kneel during certain parts of the liturgy, but I don't know if that was borrowed from the Romans.  It probably was.  I know in my church, the choir never kneels, but many people in the congregation kneel.

I never heard about the final Gospel being borrowed.  Don't other Orthodox churches have that?
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« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2005, 12:34:56 PM »

Quote
I never heard about the final Gospel being borrowed.  Don't other Orthodox churches have that?

Nope -- it was a peculiarly Roman tradition that developed in the middle ages.
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« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2005, 08:14:47 AM »

Dear friends,
Our sister Salpy wrote me and invited me into this discussion.ÂÂ  It may be a little late but I'll add a few things anyway.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mexican wrote:
"Last year because of my ex-girlfriend's family I attended an Armenian liturgy that was celebrated by a Uniat-Armenian bishop from Argentina who visited Mexico City's Armenian community (people of both confessions are under the care of the Catholic Uniat Bishop) and they had many elements brought from the Medieval Roman tradition as I could see:

- The first prayers (at the foot of the altar) that are performed by the priest and the servers..
- People kneel at the consecration and the eucharist is transumted when "this is my body.. this is my blood" are pronnounced like in the Roman Church.
- The Last Gospel is recited at the end of the liturgy. The French Church had adopted this practice as a proof of the orthodoxy of its priests to prevent that they were hidden Cathars or Jews. The Armenians adopted this during the time of the cruzades.
- Un-leavened bread (or leavened bread which looks unleavened) is used at the liturgy.
The Armenian Orthodox also have these Latin influences from what i know."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its true we have borrowed a little from the Latins in our Liturgy.  (I say "Latins" because "Roman" is a term traditionally reserved by the Eastern Churches for what in English most now call "Byzantine".  ÃƒÆ’‚ The termed "Byzantine" is foreign to the Traditon of all ancient Churches and was coined in the last few centuries by a French writer.  Until then the Eastern Orthodox were always known as "Romans" and those in communion with the Patriarch of the West were commonly known as "Latins" or "Franks.")

Despite a few additions resulting from our contacts with the Latins during the Crusades, it should be remembered that our Liturgy is still very much an ancient one ÂÂ  Experts beleive our Divine Liturgy is an older form of the Liturgy of St. Basil which itself was based on the very ancient Liturgy of St. Jacob (or James) of Jerusalem.ÂÂ  Our Anaphora of St. Athanasios is also unique and ancient.ÂÂ  So despite the small additions to the beginning and the end of our Divine Liturgy (as noted by Mexican), it remains unique, historic and most importantly firmly rooted in the Orthodox Tradition.

Although some in our Church do kneel during the Soorp Badarak, it is not required.ÂÂ  In fact, the instructions in the front of our Divine Liturgy books specifically state that it is proper for Eastern Christians to stand during prayer to God.ÂÂ  In the book "Frequently Asked Questions about the Armenian Church" by the Order of His Eminence Archbishop Khajag Barsamian, it is stated quite emphatically that we should NOT kneel on Sundays or in any celebration of the Divine Liturgy.ÂÂ  So I think this is something which is being corrected.

Salpy gave a nice explanation of how our Bishops came to look like Latin bishops (and our priests came to look like Eastern Orthodox bishops).ÂÂ  Some might see this as a sign of weakness on behalf of the Armenian Church leaders of that time.ÂÂ  I see it a litttle differently.ÂÂ  I see it as a manifestation of the great love and desire for unity which is a hallmark of our Armenian Church.ÂÂ  We've always been willing to bend over backwards to meet our brethren (Latins and Greeks) half way to resolve our differences.ÂÂ  Some of the writings of St. Nersess Shnorhali (the Gracefilled) on this point are remarkable for their wisdom and brotherly affection towards our seperated brethren of the historic Orthodox and Catholic Churches.ÂÂ  Our Church was even willing to adopt some of their vestments and liturgical practices if this meant it could move us closer to unity.

Our bishops bent but they did not break.ÂÂ  When the Latin Popes issued ultimatums demanding our adopting of some 117 odd changes for us to be considered worthy of Communion enough of our clergy took a stand to prevent the abandonement of anything considered essential.ÂÂ  Or when Eastern Roman theologians demanded our repudiation of essential teachings, our bishops drew the line.ÂÂ  Although they were willing to allow for changes in non-essential areas, they were not weak when we were told to change our historic faith.ÂÂ  On the contrary, they stood their ground on the faith which they knew was already Orthodox and did not need fixing by Greeks or Latins.

As for unleaveded bread, as Salpy said, "The use of unleavened bread for the Eucharist by the Armenian Orthodox actually predates the Roman use of unleavened bread by a few centuries.ÂÂ  I've heard it has something to do with Christ being without sin.ÂÂ  Yeast or leaven evidently represent sin."

There are different theological explanations for it, but she is right:ÂÂ  we used unleavened bread centuries before the Latins.ÂÂ  Perhaps liturgical adaptations were not entirely a one way street during our contacts with the Latins during the Crusades?ÂÂ  We adopted a lot of their practices.ÂÂ  Perhaps this is one of ours which they adopted?ÂÂ  As for the Words of Institution, they are sung just as they are in the other Orthodox Churches.

I hope to post more soon.
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« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2005, 02:11:15 PM »

I.  Some random comments on interesting quotes:

Djrak said:
"hey i'm new here and was wondering if there are any armenians here, i did come across a few armenian names.
i got attracted to the orthodox church not too long ago and discovered what a great treasure it is, and was wondering if you people know what i'm talking about, or if there's anyone out there who can relate... peace"

reply:  Djrak, I know exactly what you mean.  The Orthodox Church is certainly a "pearl of great price."  I too am Armenian.

Salpy said:
"On the surface, the Armenian Church can look like an ethnic club (some people would like to turn it into that.)  But when you really get involved, study the beliefs and immerse yourself in the badarak, you find a deep well of spirituality which doesn't exist in any form of Protestantism."

reply:  Well put sister Salpy!  You hit the nail right on the head.  Thank you to both Salpy and Drjak for the kind words about the site.  Glad you found it useful.

Salpy said:
"The Council of Dvin was called as a reaction to the fact that the Persian (Assyrian) Church, which had long held the christology of Theodore of Mopsuestia, had embraced Chalcedon and the tome of Leo as vindicating their position.  The Armenian Church had remained faithful to the christology of Alexandria and had accepted the Third Council, while the Persian Church had rejected it.  The Council of Dvin, in 506, anathematized both Nestorius (whom the Persian Church had embraced) and Eutyches, to show that they were not embracing the heresy of the latter."

reply:  This is a very important point, Salpy.  Many see the Seven Councils as a unity.  But this is in hindsight.  At the time of the Councils, the fourth was seen by many as a defense of those who had doubts and reservations about the third.  But hopefully this is all water under the bridge now.  Our theologians on both sides have affirmed our common Christological faith both with the Greeks and the Latins.  That's good enough for me.

Timos said:
I also noticed that the music (before Komitas or anyone else harmonized it) had the drone/bass like the Greek Byzantine chanting."

reply:  Gomidas' arrangement of the Divine Liturgy, I'm told by an expert on Armenian Liturgy is much closer to the Traditional form of the Badarak than is Egmalian's who used much more Western influence (e.g. four part harmony et al).

____________________________________________________________

II.  On the Armenian Church use of Iconography

Salpy said:
"In some of the old churches, you'll see that the images are in an old, traditional style very similar to what you see in Greek icons.  During the 1700's, it became popular to imitate the naturalistic style of the western Europeans, and that eventually became the prevalent form of images to be seen in Armenian churches, especially in the diaspora after the Genocide.  I think there is a movement now toward bringing back the old style and I think that is a good thing.  I have heard there are schools of iconography now in Yerevan where they teach the traditional style to young people and it is becoming increasingly popular to put the traditional images in the churches over there. I think the Armenians have always had a stronger veneration for the Holy Cross than for holy pictures and our theology regarding images never became as developed or formalized as that of the Greeks.  Still, holy pictures have always been in Armenian churches and people have always been free to worship Christ or venerate His saints through them.  As you said, people kiss and touch them.  The deacons, as they cense the church, also make a point of censing the holy pictures. -Salpy "

reply:  Very good points!

Timos said:
"What I found interesting was that there are no icons except 1 of the Virgin Mary at the altar.  Also, the altar girls or 'tubirs' are a really nice touch.  Correct me if I'm wrong but they can serve at the altar until they reach puberty, correct?" -Timos

reply:  Dear Timos,
   You are correct that many Armenian Churches are more conservative in their use of Iconography.  It is important for us all to remember that the word Icon means "Image."  The Armenian Church certainly does employ Holy Images in their Churches and in their Worship.  The Armenian word "Surpabadger" litterally connotes "Holy Image."  The Armenian Church was one of the first to have to do battle with the Iconoclasts and indeed ultimately affirmed the Orthodoxy of Images and their veneration.  Our Church fully concurs with the decisions of the Council of Nicea II (counted as the VIIth Ecumenical Council by the West).  In fact the oldest written defense of the use Icons was by an Armenian writer.  It can be found on-line at http://www.geocities.com/derghazar/symbol.html
   Another important point is that although our Iconography is usually not on wood but rather painted on walls as frescoes, or in the style of Mosaics, or in our Sacred Books as "Miniatures" it is important to recognize one thing about them:  the far majority of them follow the identical theological themes and canonical patterns common to all Eastern Iconography.  Thus you can find identical Armenian Icons of everything from the Transfiguration of our Lord, to the Translation of the Mother of God into Paradise, to the Harrowing of Hell, etc.  This is just a manifestation of the fact that we share the same basic Orthodox faith with all of our Eastern brethren.
   As for girls as tubirs, I think this is problematic for several reasons which I won't delve into now.
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« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2005, 02:39:46 AM »

this may be off-topic but do you know where to download sharagans from (mp3's and/or lyrics(krapar))
thanks!
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« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2005, 04:21:59 PM »

Djrak,

Yes there are such things available.  Try one of these:

http://www.armenianchurchlibrary.com/divineliturgy.html

http://www.sharagan.com/

http://www.armenianchurch.org/index.shtml

The Diocese site, I know does have sheet music and lyrics.  I'm not sure about MP3's though.
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« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2005, 11:12:53 PM »

Thank you, Ghazaros, for your input.  I wasn't sure what I was getting right and what I was getting wrong.

Something interesting which pertains to the ancient character of our Church and liturgy:

There is a professor of medieval history at a nearby university who, once a year, takes his grad students for a field trip to our church.  They come to a liturgy on a Sunday and then attend a lecture by the professor in our church's social hall.  It's weird.  Like we're some obscure tribe being observed by anthropologists.  They're always pleasent, however, and polite, so it's not a problem.  Still, it's weird.
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« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2005, 11:14:48 PM »

djrak

I can identify with you. My father was Serbian Orthodox (memory eternal), but I learned nothing of the faith as a child. When I went to college I became an evangelical christian and wandered in that desert for 25 years. I returned to Orthodoxy and all its magnificence in 2002.
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« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2005, 04:34:41 AM »

It's weird.ÂÂ  Like we're some obscure tribe being observed by anthropologists.
armenoids under the microscope of mad scientist the historian and the "we want to learn why people do/did what they do/did without being involved or using anything other than our brain muscles so that we dont become like them" crew.
it's a common phenomenon.
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« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2005, 04:44:01 AM »

Orthodoxy and all its magnificence
i like the way that sounds!
aserb, you dont know how great it is to find people who've been where i've been. It's such a magnificent gift like you said. let us pray to keep it that way and build on it.

it hurt me so much the other day talking with an old friend who resented our church and Christ! because of the corruption he saw there. I tried to take the discussion out of that place but couldnt ease his anger. It was as if he knows he needs the church and it hurts him that he cant rely on it but is not aware of his state of mysery and hatred. His soul was crying and he didnt know it. I cant allow that to happen. We have to build build build, pray that God shows us the right way to do it. God help us all.
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« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2005, 04:46:19 AM »

Djrak,

Yes there are such things available.ÂÂ  Try one of these:

http://www.armenianchurchlibrary.com/divineliturgy.html

http://www.sharagan.com/

http://www.armenianchurch.org/index.shtml

The Diocese site, I know does have sheet music and lyrics.ÂÂ  I'm not sure about MP3's though.
thanks for the links Ghazaros, couldnt find mp3's though, it's cool.
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« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2005, 09:41:38 AM »

djrak

It's good to find people like you too. I find that many cradle beleivers don't realize what they have and it is sad. Maybe, we had to wander in the desert like the prodigal.

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« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2005, 05:52:29 PM »

djrak

I'm sorry you didn't find the MP3's.  I'm not sure if any MP3's of sharagans are there, but if you do some digging on these sites, you might find them.  I know the Diocese site certainly has sheet music and words of sharagans for several feasts.  I also know the following site has audio lectures click on MP3:  ÃƒÆ’‚ http://www.armenianchurchlibrary.com/audiovisual.html

But

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« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2005, 06:04:02 PM »

Thank you, Ghazaros, for your input. I wasn't sure what I was getting right and what I was getting wrong.

Something interesting which pertains to the ancient character of our Church and liturgy:

There is a professor of medieval history at a nearby university who, once a year, takes his grad students for a field trip to our church. They come to a liturgy on a Sunday and then attend a lecture by the professor in our church's social hall. It's weird. Like we're some obscure tribe being observed by anthropologists. They're always pleasent, however, and polite, so it's not a problem. Still, it's weird.

No problem, Salpy.  But you always do a good job of presenting our Church's teaching and history.  You don't need my help.  I have learned a lot from you and am glad to have met you here through the forum.  May God grant our Church many more faithful members like yourself to help the Church fulfill its mission!

your brother in Christ's Light,
Ghazar
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« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2005, 03:25:31 AM »

hey Ghazaros, do you know where i can find an english translation of the badarak?
thanks!
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« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2005, 07:08:39 PM »

My page below has the Soorp Badarak book our Diocese uses.  Its the best translation in modern English I've seen.  Its very accurate with no silly gimicks.  Just click on the book and there should be info. on how to order it.

http://www.geocities.com/derghazar/articles.html

By the way, if you are from Lebanon, how come you converse in English so well?

If you are looking for translations of the Badarak on-line, I haven't seen any Orthodox ones.  There is an Armenian Catholic one I know that is online.  You could do a search on this.
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« Reply #37 on: July 21, 2005, 11:45:46 PM »

Quote
If you are looking for translations of the Badarak on-line, I haven't seen any Orthodox ones.  There is an Armenian Catholic one I know that is online.  You could do a search on this.

One of the pages you linked earlier had the Badarak.
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« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2005, 02:55:22 AM »

My page below has the Soorp Badarak book our Diocese uses.ÂÂ  Its the best translation in modern English I've seen.ÂÂ  Its very accurate with no silly gimicks.ÂÂ  Just click on the book and there should be info. on how to order it.

http://www.geocities.com/derghazar/articles.html
thanks

Quote
By the way, if you are from Lebanon, how come you converse in English so well?
globilization?
people here in some circles use only the english language for several reasons, returning immigrants, foreigners, for more clarity, so everyone understands... so you learn english by using it, oh yeah! hip hop helped too Wink
no but usually people here talk 3 to 4 languages but how fluent is a different question Cool

Quote
If you are looking for translations of the Badarak on-line, I haven't seen any Orthodox ones.ÂÂ  There is an Armenian Catholic one I know that is online.ÂÂ  You could do a search on this.
is theirs the same as ours? i think it's a very short version of ours isnt it?
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« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2005, 03:00:46 AM »

One of the pages you linked earlier had the Badarak.
hey thanks, i think this is it!
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« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2005, 03:05:38 AM »

One of the pages you linked earlier had the Badarak.
Ghazaros, this isn't a very accurate translation is it? Undecided
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« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2005, 03:50:35 PM »

The use of unleavened bread for the Eucharist by the Armenian Orthodox actually predates the Roman use of unleavened bread by a few centuries.  I've heard it has something to do with Christ being without sin.  Yeast or leaven evidently represent sin.
 

hey thanks for mentioning that.   I was wondering about this for the last few years.
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« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2005, 10:31:21 AM »

Djrak,

This appears to be the translation I was referring to of my Diocese.ÂÂ  I didn't know it was available in full on-line.ÂÂ  Thank you, I'll place a link for it on my site.ÂÂ  I did notice a couple modifications to the standard text to accomadate the demands of radical feminists for "inclusive language" (e.g. using "humankind" instead of the standard English word "mankind").ÂÂ  But besides this, its a very accurate translation and well written: the best available in English, I believe.ÂÂ  Was there something about it which made you think it was not a good translation?
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« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2005, 03:01:04 AM »

Was there something about it which made you think it was not a good translation?
i may be mistaken, but doesn't "yergrbakestsouk" mean to "kiss the ground" or is it just a way of saying bow?
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« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2005, 07:41:52 PM »

i may be mistaken, but doesn't "yergrbakestsouk" mean to "kiss the ground" or is it just a way of saying bow?

Djrak,

Probably, it literally does.ÂÂ  I think the equivalent Greek word also connotes to "kiss the ground" which is probably where we got the phrase.ÂÂ  But all of the Armenian Churches that I know of take it to practically mean to "bow."ÂÂ  Thus, this is how it is translated and we all bow and touch the ground when the sargavakn (deacons) invite us to "bow down to God."ÂÂ  Does your Church actually "kiss the ground" during the Badarak?
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« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2005, 09:57:20 PM »

"yergrbakestsook" does mean to "kiss the ground," in Classical Armenian.  It means we are supposed to do the full prostration, with the forehead to the ground.  Who knows?  Maybe in the old days, people literally kissed the ground as they bowed.  I have always loved that word, as a wonderful expression of humility.  Unfortunately, now that we have pews in our churches, no one does the full prostrations anymore.  It's sad.  I'm always telling people, if I were Queen for a Day I'd pull out all the pews and organs from the churches.  Whenever I have been in a church without pews (Coptic or OCA) I have always experienced a deeper feeling of worship, as I and the other people are free to bow as we are supposed to.
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« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2005, 02:32:56 AM »

Djrak,

Probably, it literally does.ÂÂ  I think the equivalent Greek word also connotes to "kiss the ground" which is probably where we got the phrase.ÂÂ  But all of the Armenian Churches that I know of take it to practically mean to "bow."ÂÂ  Thus, this is how it is translated and we all bow and touch the ground when the sargavakn (deacons) invite us to "bow down to God."ÂÂ  Does your Church actually "kiss the ground" during the Badarak?
some people touch the ground then kiss their hand instead of atually kissing the ground, some people bow, some nod, and some stay still. Undecided
maybe the original way was to actually kiss the ground?
or maybe like you said it just means to bow
either way the translation should say "kiss the ground" since there is a word for "bow" in armenian and that one is not used there (like "khonarhil")
i heard back in the days there were no seats in churches and people used to stand most of the time and sit on the ground instead of seats. So "kiss the ground" doesnt sound too outrageous.
and some priests, those in front of the altar bow all the way down, can't say if they kiss the ground or not, i can't really see from the back.
 
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« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2005, 02:38:46 AM »

"yergrbakestsook" does mean to "kiss the ground," in Classical Armenian.ÂÂ  It means we are supposed to do the full prostration, with the forehead to the ground.ÂÂ  Who knows?ÂÂ  Maybe in the old days, people literally kissed the ground as they bowed.ÂÂ
yeah, we're on the same wavelength
Quote
I have always loved that word, as a wonderful expression of humility.ÂÂ  Unfortunately, now that we have pews in our churches, no one does the full prostrations anymore.ÂÂ  It's sad.
i even heard that people use to bring their own sheets or pillows to sit on
Quote
ÂÂ  I'm always telling people, if I were Queen for a Day I'd pull out all the pews and organs from the churches.
i got your back
Quote
Whenever I have been in a church without pews (Coptic or OCA) I have always experienced a deeper feeling of worship, as I and the other people are free to bow as we are supposed to.
the coptic church i've been to has pews, are there seriously still churches without them, where people sit on the ground? i'd really like to visit one someday.
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« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2005, 10:17:52 AM »

Quote
the coptic church i've been to has pews, are there seriously still churches without them, where people sit on the ground? i'd really like to visit one someday.

The OCA cathedral in Dallas doesn't have them, and neither do either of the Russian churches here in Houston. People don't sit on the ground, though -- they stand. If you need to sit, you can always fight a place on the bench in the back with the babas.
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« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2005, 01:57:01 PM »

The Coptic parish churches I have been to have pews, but the churches at St. Anthony Coptic Monastery don't have them.  There is an OCA cathedral in Los Angeles I have visited that doesn't have pews. As I said, I really like the feeling you get when you are in such a church.  If someone really is not well enough to stand the whole time, there are seats in the back or along the sides, so it really does not create a hardship.

The problem with pews, in addition to making the full prostrations hard or impossible, is that they also create an "audience" mentality.  People feel they are in a theater to watch a show or listen to a concert.  They stand there or sit there motionless, without singing or bowing or participating in any way in the liturgy.  The congregation, which used to worship, has now been turned into spectators. 

And when the liturgy is not as interesting as the latest Tom Cruise action movie, people complain about the liturgy being boring and too long.  The result is that there is some actual talk now about shortening the liturgy because it is "too long."  What concerns me is that this talk is not only coming from the laity, but from a number of priests.

How can the liturgy be too long?  What horrible thing has God done to deserve less worship?  People need to realize that the purpose of the liturgy is not to entertain ourselves, but to worship God.  We don't go in order to get something out of it for ourselves.  We go in order to give ourselves to God.

Forgive me if it sounds like I am being judgemental of others.  That is not my intention.  In fact, I have to admit that there are Sundays when I find myself just standing or sitting there, not singing or bowing either.  I don't experience that, however, when I am in a church that doesn't have pews.  I find that in those churches, people more actively participate in the liturgy, myself included.

Does anyone else experience that, or is it just me?
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« Reply #50 on: July 29, 2005, 03:53:48 PM »

How can the liturgy be too long?
this sais it all.

people complain about it being too long, about it being in a non-familiar language,people complain about everything.
Someone actally told me, why dont we have liturgy booklets in the back of pews so we can follow. GO GET IT FROM THE LIBRARY!!! i think they already did cut it short there's a lot of the original that's excluded now, there are a lot of things we only recite half of.

Salpy, there's an mp3 sermon on-line from a pasadena priest about the subject, i'm sure you've checked it out, the guy's on fire, there's also a written article about the liturgy being work or an active thing as opposed to an entertainment show like you said.

lazyness is such a trap. It draw you further away from the Light and deeper into self-satisfaction and uselessness.

I pray for the few TRUE believers (including clergy) that are left and keep the flame of faith alive. Our faith is so precious, if only they knew, that's what i tell people all the time:
"IF ONLY YOU KNEW!"
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« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2005, 11:18:58 AM »

this sais it all.

people complain about it being too long, about it being in a non-familiar language,people complain about everything.
Someone actally told me, why dont we have liturgy booklets in the back of pews so we can follow. GO GET IT FROM THE LIBRARY!!! i think they already did cut it short there's a lot of the original that's excluded now, there are a lot of things we only recite half of.

Salpy, there's an mp3 sermon on-line from a pasadena priest about the subject, i'm sure you've checked it out, the guy's on fire, there's also a written article about the liturgy being work or an active thing as opposed to an entertainment show like you said.

lazyness is such a trap. It draw you further away from the Light and deeper into self-satisfaction and uselessness.

I pray for the few TRUE believers (including clergy) that are left and keep the flame of faith alive. Our faith is so precious, if only they knew, that's what i tell people all the time:
"IF ONLY YOU KNEW!"


The locals must do it differently.   There is like 2 hours.     They do not do the morning matins service that is typical of most Orthodox churches.   They start at 10:30 with the badarak.   Although I've seen other Armenian churches being talked about online that have a 3 hour service.   So all I can think is the American Armenians cut out their Matins service to accomodate complaints that the service is too long.
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« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2005, 03:22:56 PM »

Actually, at my church we do matins early in the morning before the liturgy.  I don't know what other churches do, though.  The matins service is a little over an hour.  It starts before 9:00 a.m. and ends a little after 10:00.  Most people don't attend matins, mostly the old ladies ("mairigs.")  I'm usually there in time for matins, but, as I volunteer for a lot of things, I'm usually running around the church grounds setting stuff up and helping out at that time.  I have that Mary vs. Martha conflict going on
sometimes.

The liturgy starts right after matins and goes for about 2 hours or 2 1/2 hours.  It is a beautiful liturgy and it gets me when I hear people talk about it being too long.  We have, as djrak indicated, already trimmed it.  Most Sundays, for example, our priest does not do the vesting part at the beginning, but starts later at the enarxis.  I guess that is historically not too incorrect, as I think that is where the liturgy used to start before the Crusades.  It is where the EO's start their liturgy. It's where the priest says "Blessed be the kingdom of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

Still, by shortening the liturgy, what message are we giving people?  Aren't we saying that we have better things to do with our Sunday than worship?  Aren't we saying that it's O.K. to give God just a little bit of ourselves and our time?

Another place where the liturgy has been trimmed is the litanies.  We now omit most of the saints' names.  How do we expect them to pray for us?  How do we expect people to learn of the saints when their names are omitted from the liturgy?

With regard to the liturgy book issue raised by djrak, we have had liturgy books in our pews for years.  People still complain about not understanding the liturgy.  It seems holding a book and reading it is too much trouble.  So we now have a power point screen toward the front where people can read the words of the liturgy in the Classical Armenian, transliterated into English letters, and translated into both modern Armenian and English.  It is easy, all you have to do is stand there and read.  So where are all these people who said they don't come to church because they can't understand the liturgy?  They still aren't coming.  It seems now they can't come because it is too long.

I guess this is what happened about eighty years ago when the Church put organs and pews into the churches.  People must have complained about standing, so the Church put pews in the churches.  Then the same people said they still can't come to church because the music isn't as pretty as that of the Protestants and Catholics who have organs.  So the Church put organs into the churches.  Then, the same people said they still can't come because the liturgy is in Classical Armenian and they can't understand it.  So the Church put liturgy books in the pews.  I can remember as a child going to my grandfather's church and seeing the liturgy books in the pews, so they have been there for a while, at least here in the U.S.

However, even with a power point screen spoon feeding the liturgy to people, they still won't come.  The latest excuse is that the liturgy is too long.  If the Catholics can have a quick in and out mass, why can't we?

What do you want to bet, if our church shortened the liturgy to a half hour (and I am sometimes afraid they are going to do that) people will just find another excuse and still not come.

The bottom line is that the people who are not coming to church don't come because they are not committed to God and don't want to spend Sunday worshipping Him.  Nothing is going to get these people to come to church, except reaching them with the message that they need to commit themselves to God and spend some time worshipping Him.  After all, He spent 3 hours dying on a cross for us.  Is it too much for us to spend 2 hours a week with Him?

So that is the challenge facing our Church.  Our church leaders can do one of the following:  1. Work to change the hearts of the people so they will love God and want to be with Him; or 2. Accommodate the hardness of people's hearts toward God by shortening the liturgy even further and sending the message that we really do have better things to do than worship God.

Forgive me for going on like this.  Again, I don't mean to be judgemental.  I can be guilty of spiritual laziness as much as anyone.  It is just that these issues regarding the liturgy frustrate me and I need to vent.
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« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2005, 03:55:13 PM »

Salpy, that's really sad about the powerpoint thing. But there's something we should always remember that the people who complain can be of 2 types, those who dont care about God and only do it for show off or other stupid reasons and those who do care but not enough, what i'm saying is: it's lack of spiritual growth some peple will grow to love worship more gradually but where they are right now it may seem long or boring. What we lack, other than faith, is education and discipline which leads to faith if implemented properly.

It's like someone singing sitting down, he will reach a point where he has to stand up then move around move freely wave his hands put all his soul out there, go all out.

You cant do that in a half hour liturgy with pews and people chatting.

People need to give their hearts to God so that God makes the seed of faith grow in them , so that they start loving Him more and desire true worship, you cant force it on people. It is personal, collective and full expression physical, mental and spiritual the entire church, the living and the dead.

What still amazes me is how God pours his priceless grace on us despite all of this going on righjt there and then. It makes me feel ashamed, unworthy and speechless. Judgement will be hard.
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« Reply #54 on: July 31, 2005, 03:48:04 PM »

Dear Friends,

This might help to clarify why in the Armenian Church we "bow" instead of "kissing the ground" on the Lord's Day.

Frequently Asked Questions:ÂÂ  On Kneeling

From the book:ÂÂ  Frequently Asked Questions about the Armenian Church
by the Very Rev. Fr. Krikor Maksoudian
(by Order of His Eminence Archbishop Khajag Barsamian, Primate)

-When should the faithful kneel down during the celebration of the Divine Liturgy?

In our churches in the United States, it has-become traditional to kneel at certain times during the celebration of the Divine Liturgy. These include:

a) the Great Entrance (when the chalice is brought to the celebrant);
b) the Inclination (after Hayr mer);
c) the Fraction (when Der Voghormya is chanted);
d) the Communion (when only the celebrant and two attendants on his left and right side kneel, holding a cloth);
e) the Confession.

Yet, in most of our churches abroad neither the celebrant nor the congregation kneel during the celebration of the Divine Liturgy. The exceptions are d) and e) cited above.
There are different ways of expressing piety in church. People obviously kneel to pray before God and to express the awe and respect that they feel in their hearts. Even in Armenian churches abroad, in places like Holy Etchmiadzin and Jerusalem one can see old people participating in the entire Divine Liturgy on their knees.

The Church, however, reserves kneeling for a specific purpose, which we shall see a little later. As for kneeling on Sundays, which is the Lord's Day when the Divine Liturgy is celebrated, the 318 bishops participating in the Holy Council of Nicaea (the first Ecumenical Council that met in AD. 325) bid the following:

Forasmuch as there are certain persons who kneel on the Lord's Day and in the days of Pentecost, therefore to the intent that all things may be uniformly observed everywhere (in every parish), it seems good to the holy Synod that prayer be made to God standing. (Canon XX)

The Armenian Book of Canons translates the same canon with a minor variation: instead of saying "and in the days of Pentecost," it reads: "and in the days until Pentecost" The same ordinance is repeated in Canon III, attributed to the late fifth century Catholicos Hovhannes Mantagoonnee, and, also in later canons.

The reason for not kneeling in church "on the Lord's Day and in the days of [or until] Pentecost" is given by the 12th and 13th century Armenian theologian Vartan Vartabed Aykegtsee:
But you, Brother, take note that Sunday is a superior, glorious and awe inspiring [day of] honor, since the books inspired by the [Holy] Spirit do not allow kneeling on that day [nor] touching the forehead to the ground, as we do on the [remaining] six days [of the week], but [they instruct us] to worship God on foot, by slightly bowing [the head] and only extending the tips of the fingers to the ground. . . We do not prostrate ourselves on the ground, but worship God standing, since Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday and he raised us on our feet from the destruction of sins and the perdition of idolatry.

It is clear from Vartan Vartabed's treatise that on Sundays when the priest (during the morning services) and the deacon (during the Divine Liturgy) say/chant "Let us bow down unto God," the congregation's response should be a bow (1), and if possible the faithful must extend the fingertips of their right hand to the ground and touch it, after which they must stand and cross themselves, as is still the custom in many places and with many people. Vartan Vartabed explains the symbolism of kneeling in church as follows:

Our father Adam, deceived by the evil one, fell [headlong] from sublime heights into this accursed world. In his example we are born from the womb of our mother in a head down position and fall into this world, resembling our [fore] father Adam. . . For the reason that Adam fell headlong into the world, we kneel before God for six days, with our forehead touching the ground.

-Should we kneel down when the Divine Liturgy is celebrated on a weekday, for example on January 6th or Vartanants Day?

The answer is still no, since the day on which the Divine Liturgy is celebrated, be it a Sunday or a weekday, is always considered to be the Lord's Day in our tradition and is referred to as "Geeragee [Sunday]." The church calendar [Donatsooyts, Jerusalem, 1915] lists the following weekdays as Geeragee in addition to the 52 Sundays during the year, as well as January 5th, January 6th and Easter eve:

.The Second day of Theophany (the day after Armenian Christmas)
.The eighth day of Theophany (Christ's circumcision)
.February 14th (Presentation of the Lord in the temple)
.Holy Thursday
.April 7th - the Annunciation
.Ascension Thursday (forty days after Easter)
.Saturday - the Invention of the relics of St. Gregory the Illuminator
.Monday after the Transfiguration Sunday
.Monday after the Assumption Sunday
.Monday after the Exaltation of the Holy Cross
.September 8th - the Birth of the Holy Virgin
.November 21 st - the Presentation of the Holy Virgin in the temple
.December 9th - the Conception of the Holy Virgin
.Saturday - Sts. Thaddeus and Bartholomew (usually in early December)

.Optional are the following days:
.Saturday - the feast of the Holy Archangels
.Saturday - St. Thaddeus and Princess Santookhd
.Saturday - St. Gregory the Illuminator's entry into the pit
.Saturday - St. Gregory the Illuminator's coming out of the pit
.Thursday - St. Vartanants Saturday - Holy Translators
.(The feasts with no set dates are movable.)

Besides these days, the Divine Liturgy can be celebrated on special occasions only with the permission of the diocesan Primate. As an example one can cite the name day of a church, or the funerary rites for a clergyman. Medieval monasteries traditionally celebrated the Divine Liturgy on weekdays for the salvation of the souls of deceased benefactors.

-If it was not traditional to kneel, did our forefathers stand at confession?

They kneeled at confession, but confession was not held during the Divine Liturgy. People confessed their sins to the priest on weekdays, usually in the church vestry. After the confession they did penance, and when they felt ready, they received Holy Communion on Sunday. In many parishes the priests had special days during the week when they received the faithful for confession.

-If kneeling is not acceptable on Sundays, why does the celebrant kneel to administer Holy Communion?

The celebrant administrating Holy Communion is really not in a kneeling position, since he rests only on his right knee and places the base of the Holy Chalice on his left knee, which is in a raised position. We don't consider that a kneeling position in our church.
The kneeling required from the candidates at the time of ordinations is a part of the ordination ceremony. While the candidate kneels, the congregation continues to stand. This clearly indicates that the kneeling, which is done by the candidate, is not required from the congregation as a part of common worship.

When the celebrant is a bishop, at the beginning of the liturgy he ascends the bema and proceeding to the front of the altar, he kneels to read the two prayers of St. Gregory of Nareg. This tradition is of a much later origin, probably taken from the Western Church, in order to enhance the mystical effect of the festive occasion. The congregation remains standing.

On ordinary Sundays, the celebrant, even if he is a bishop, reads these prayers in a standing position behind the closed curtain.
pgs. 142-146
______________________________________________________

Hope this helps.

p.s.ÂÂ  I fully concur with the comments about how sad it is that some have a "fast-food" mentality when it comes to Divine Worship.ÂÂ  Thank God our leaders in the Church have not been swayed to adopt such foolishness.ÂÂ  I too would love to see the pews go back to their inventors: the Protestants, and the organs return to our Latin brethren from whence they came.ÂÂ  I must confess that I have a secret fantasy about sneaking in one Lord's Day before the Badarak and sabotaging our own parish's organ just so I can hear the Badarak acapella as it was originaly intended.ÂÂ  The few times I've been to a Soorp Badarak where the organ was not operating, I was treated to a strickingly beautiful celebration of the Liturgy.ÂÂ  Finally, our parish also offers Matins weekly before the Soorp Badarak.
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« Reply #55 on: July 31, 2005, 04:55:55 PM »

Thank you Ghazaros for that information, especially this:
Quote
only extending the tips of the fingers to the ground

many people do that in my church, i use to think it's a half-bow.
Even in Armenian churches abroad, in places like Holy Etchmiadzin and Jerusalem one can see old people participating in the entire Divine Liturgy on their knees.
That's how my grandmother does it, she's from Jerusalem, she's in cali now and goes to the coptic church there since there isnt an armenian one nearby.

Quote
I must confess that I have a secret fantasy about sneaking in one Lord's Day before the Badarak and sabotaging our own parish's organ just so I can hear the Badarak acapella as it was originaly intended.ÂÂ  The few times I've been to a Soorp Badarak where the organ was not operating, I was treated to a strickingly beautiful celebration of the Liturgy.
this summer there is no choir or organ at our church here since everyone's on vacation, there's an old guy with a opera voice who volunteers to lead and it's simply beautiful

Quote
Finally, our parish also offers Matins weekly before the Soorp Badarak.
what are the sharagans they sing on Matins? can i get them from the net?
I can tell it's mostly prayers for teh Saints and the Virgin Mary's intercession but cant understand much else other than it's a mini-badarak conducted by the "sargavaks" and "tbir"s. I Try to make it that early but usually fail. It's important to prepare yourself for the badarak. Kind of like an introduction, prayer time.
because when the badarak starts all our focus should be on God and not ourselves and our needs or prayers.
Quote
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« Reply #56 on: July 31, 2005, 11:43:34 PM »

Thank you , Ghazaros, I learned a lot!

Djrak, regarding Matins:

If you have an Armenian bookstore with religious books near you, you can get a jhamakirk (I wish I had Armenian fonts, but I don't, so you have to try to figure out what I am writing with English letters.)  The jhamakirk (called "book of hours" in English) has all the services, including Matins.  There are smaller, abbreviated, jhamakirks out there.  One that was published in Lebanon was called "krbani jhamakirk" ("pocket jhamakirk.")  It was printed by G. Doniguian & Fils in Beirut.

I have never been able to follow a matins service.  There are so many variables, I get confused.  I'm probably doing something wrong.  One of the hymns sung toward the end of the service, however, is quite beautiful:  "Park ee partzoons Asdoodzo" ("Glory to God in the highest.")  I think all liturgical churches sing this one, not just the Armenian Church.  Another beautiful one is "Aravod Loosoh."  I haven't seen these on the internet.  It would be cool if they were.
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« Reply #57 on: August 01, 2005, 01:59:55 AM »

Actually at my Coptic church we have a power point thing exactly what Salpy described and I love it.    It would be so much harder trying to do service as a convert without it (and this goes doubly for my girl friend who just converted).    And the youth in America really need that since their Arabic isn't so good, and their Coptic can be rusty.


This sort of thing is a God send for folks who were born in America.   And have less exposure to the native and liturgical tongue.
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« Reply #58 on: August 01, 2005, 02:04:40 AM »

Thank you , Ghazaros, I learned a lot!

Djrak, regarding Matins:

If you have an Armenian bookstore with religious books near you, you can get a jhamakirk (I wish I had Armenian fonts, but I don't, so you have to try to figure out what I am writing with English letters.)ÂÂ  The jhamakirk (called "book of hours" in English) has all the services, including Matins.ÂÂ  There are smaller, abbreviated, jhamakirks out there.ÂÂ  One that was published in Lebanon was called "krbani jhamakirk" ("pocket jhamakirk.")ÂÂ  It was printed by G. Doniguian & Fils in Beirut.

I have never been able to follow a matins service.ÂÂ  There are so many variables, I get confused.ÂÂ  I'm probably doing something wrong.ÂÂ  One of the hymns sung toward the end of the service, however, is quite beautiful:ÂÂ  "Park ee partzoons Asdoodzo" ("Glory to God in the highest.")ÂÂ  I think all liturgical churches sing this one, not just the Armenian Church.ÂÂ  Another beautiful one is "Aravod Loosoh."ÂÂ  I haven't seen these on the internet.ÂÂ  It would be cool if they were.
so that's what they're called. I have a hard cover one with just the liturgy with ashkharapar on one page and krapar on the adjacent one it's by the late archbishop Zareh Aznavourian. But Matins are not included. I have to look for one with Matins

btw i know aravod looso, we use to sing it in high school instead of hayr mer.
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« Reply #59 on: August 01, 2005, 02:14:05 AM »

Actually at my Coptic church we have a power point thing exactly what Salpy described and I love it.  ÃƒÆ’‚  It would be so much harder trying to do service as a convert without it (and this goes doubly for my girl friend who just converted).  ÃƒÆ’‚  And the youth in America really need that since their Arabic isn't so good, and their Coptic can be rusty.


This sort of thing is a God send for folks who were born in America.  ÃƒÆ’‚ And have less exposure to the native and liturgical tongue.
i can imagine how hard it must be for americans to learn arabic. 
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« Reply #60 on: August 01, 2005, 02:14:23 AM »


The liturgy starts right after matins and goes for about 2 hours or 2 1/2 hours.ÂÂ  It is a beautiful liturgy and it gets me when I hear people talk about it being too long.ÂÂ  We have, as djrak indicated, already trimmed it.ÂÂ  Most Sundays, for example, our priest does not do the vesting part at the beginning, but starts later at the enarxis.ÂÂ  I guess that is historically not too incorrect, as I think that is where the liturgy used to start before the Crusades.ÂÂ  It is where the EO's start their liturgy. It's where the priest says "Blessed be the kingdom of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

Still, by shortening the liturgy, what message are we giving people?ÂÂ  Aren't we saying that we have better things to do with our Sunday than worship?ÂÂ  Aren't we saying that it's O.K. to give God just a little bit of ourselves and our time?


My priest handles this by reminding people that back in the early days church was an all night affair in addition to the morning divine liturgy (They prayed most of the night from vespers to matins, only stopping for 2 hours in the middle of the morning to take a break.).

And well we do have an understanding. ÂÂ  People are able to come to church late. ÂÂ  Just as long as they come before the reading of the gospel they can take communion. ÂÂ  That is only 1 hour of liturgy with maybe a 20 minute sermon. ÂÂ  So my priest has refered to the church as a buffet. ÂÂ  Those that aren't very hungry only come for that minumum time. ÂÂ  But the hungry ones come for the full 3.5 to 4 hour service, and maybe even do vespers on top of that. ÂÂ  So the reasoning is, Why should we deprive the hungry for those that want to do the minimum. ÂÂ  If people want a short service then they can just come to church late. ÂÂ (Even though we wish this wasn't done as much as it is).
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« Reply #61 on: August 02, 2005, 11:04:18 PM »

...and now for a different question...

In the Armenian tradition, are feast days that would normally occur during the week  (i.e. Dormition)transferred to the closest Sunday? From the few American Armenian sites I have visited, it seems to be the case.

If this occurs, is this just a North American thing, or does it happen in Armenia as well?


Secondly, are the Armenians on the "new" calender in North America but on the "old" calender in Armenia.

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« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2005, 12:23:22 AM »

Christmas is always on January 6, no matter what day of the week it is.  I've heard that there are a few parishes here in the U.S. which transfer it to the nearest Sunday, but that is improper.  Dormition, Transfiguration Day and The Exaltation of the Holy Cross are on the nearest Sunday, at least here in the U.S.  I don't know about Armenia.

I know the Armenian Church in Jerusalem is still on the old calendar.  I am not sure about Armenia, though.  Here in the U.S. we are new calendar.
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« Reply #63 on: August 03, 2005, 04:30:09 AM »

I never understood why people make such a big deal out of calenders.

Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father.-John 4:21
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« Reply #64 on: August 03, 2005, 08:49:40 AM »

I'm going to go WAY off topic for a second and just make a comment...

I just finished reading "Sword of the Prophet" by Serge Trifkovic.  He gives such a vivid account of the Armenian Orthodox suffering at the hands of Muslim Turks (and Muslim Arabs too).

I've known about the genocide committed against the beloved Armenians, but it really hit home when I read it in this book.  I was SO deeply disgusted and appaulled at the cruelty, but moreso at the fact that this HOLOCAUST has remained so quiet.  I am ashamed to have not known more about the subject.

God Bless all the Armenian Orthodox martyrs.
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« Reply #65 on: August 03, 2005, 09:50:51 AM »

SouthSerb99,
Have you checked out our member tOm_Dr's post about the Blight of Asia over in the Reviews Board?

Seems the western powers were still playing their 19th Century "Great Game" to contain Russia( and probably still are). That one doesn't read the true history becomes obvious.
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« Reply #66 on: August 03, 2005, 09:54:40 AM »

I'm going to go WAY off topic for a second and just make a comment...

I just finished reading "Sword of the Prophet" by Serge Trifkovic.ÂÂ  He gives such a vivid account of the Armenian Orthodox suffering at the hands of Muslim Turks (and Muslim Arabs too).

I've known about the genocide committed against the beloved Armenians, but it really hit home when I read it in this book.ÂÂ  I was SO deeply disgusted and appaulled at the cruelty, but moreso at the fact that this HOLOCAUST has remained so quiet.ÂÂ  I am ashamed to have not known more about the subject.

God Bless all the Armenian Orthodox martyrs.

God Bless you and your people southserb. I always use to look at it as a racial thing after i came to Christ i started seeing what happenned to our people and i saw something completely different.
Armenian Orthodox were driven to the desert straight away, protestants were protected by the US and catholics by Europe but they soon followed.
My great grandfather was a judge in the supreme court, he was hung with all of his colleagues my grandfather witnessed it he ran away and was raised by bedouins in the desert ...
My other grandfather was a soldier in the army (WWI) and they started killing all armenian soldiers in their own army, my grandfather ran away and came to Syria, stories and testimonies are so many and everywhere in the media. It hasnt stopped. Even today Armenians in Turkey are discremenated, renovations of ancient armenian ruins are done with the removal of all trace of christianity( city of Ani, city of 1001 churches).
we are a remnant of the first christian nation, who has endured everything for faith, throughout our history, we've always been under attack because of our faith. the genocide was the peak. I remember this testimony by this old guy who, when young in the genocide, was following watching his parents from far being driven in the desert with a group among which there's a priest. the soldier tells them that he has to kill them after making them walk in the desert for days without food or drink, and the priest asks for a final prayer and he makes a wafer out of wheat from the fields and everyone participates in the Lord's supper before execution.
I feel so ashamed when i see my people desert their faith so easily. I was almost going to be one of them. God have mercy on us.
Turks not only deny it but even say that it was Armenians who massacred Turks  Undecided God have mercy on them for they do not know what they do. It's a terrible thing to be living in darkness. Denial is worse. I pray that He opens their hearts to repentance for their souls' sake.
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« Reply #67 on: August 03, 2005, 10:11:39 AM »

Their denial is ridiculous and based upon a world which is ignorant to the horrendous suffering of the Armenian Orthodox at the hands of Muslims.  Unfortunately, I have been a part of that ignorant world up until recently.

I am committed to learning more about this tragedy.
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« Reply #68 on: August 03, 2005, 10:12:26 AM »

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=6593.msg89312#msg89312 date=1123077051]
SouthSerb99,
Have you checked out our member tOm_Dr's post about the Blight of Asia over in the Reviews Board?

Seems the western powers were still playing their 19th Century "Great Game" to contain Russia( and probably still are). That one doesn't read the true history becomes obvious.
[/quote]

No, I will check it out now.
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« Reply #69 on: August 03, 2005, 11:56:43 AM »

I downloaded the book, I will print it and it will be train reading.  Thank you.
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