Topic: "Pan-African Orthodox Christian Church": um, who are they?

[biro]

http://www.theyearofrestoration.org/

This church has some Orthodox-like verbiage here and there on its site. But it uses many terms I've heard in a Protestant context as well, and I can't seem to detect any ties to the more well-known Orthodox jurisdictions. The site says they have locations in Georgia, Texas, Michigan and South Carolina.

Something to wonder about.

Anybody ever heard of these folks before? 

According to the site: "D. Kimathi Nelson aka Jaramogi Menelik Kimathi,  Presiding Bishop and Holy Patriarch of the Pan African Orthodox Christian Church" is this man:

[LBK]

Sigh. Yet another group which has hijacked the name Orthodox. Here's how they came into existence:

http://www.theyearofrestoration.org/Jaramogi-Abebe-History.html

[wgw]

In your estimation have the rabinnical Jews, the Oriental churches and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, whose founding dates from the era the Eastern Orthodox were commonly called "The Greek Church", hijacked the name Orthodox?

[qawe]

Paging AntoniousNikolas...

[qawe]

This church has some Orthodox-like verbiage here and there on its site. But it uses many terms I've heard in a Protestant context as well, and I can't seem to detect any ties to the more well-known Orthodox jurisdictions.

Don't worry, it's probably a Coptic 'Orthodox' "mission" church website!

[LBK]

In your estimation have the rabinnical Jews, the Oriental churches and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, whose founding dates from the era the Eastern Orthodox were commonly called "The Greek Church", hijacked the name Orthodox?

Did you actually look at the links posted? If not, please do, before making such comments. If you did, please tell us what the group in the OP has to do with Orthodox Christianity.

While you're at it, show us what this Orthodox Presbyterian Church you speak of has to do with Orthodox Christianity. According to the OPC website, it was founded in 1936, not 33 AD.

[Minnesotan]

Their creed is:

"I BELIEVE that human society stands under the judgment of one God, revealed to all and known by many names. His creative power is visible in the mysteries of the universe, in the revolutionary Holy Spirit which will not long permit men to endure injustice nor to wear the shackles of bondage, in the rage of the powerless when they struggle to be free, and in the violence and conflict which even now threaten to level the hills and the mountains.

"I BELIEVE that Jesus, the Black Messiah, was a revolutionary leader, sent by God to rebuild the Black Nation Israel and to liberate Black people from powerlessness and from the oppression, brutality, and exploitation of the white gentile world.

"I BELIEVE that the revolutionary spirit of God, embodied in the Black Messiah, is born anew in each generation and that Black Christian Nationalists constitute the living remnant of God's chosen people in this day, and are charged by him with responsibility for the liberation of Black people.

"I BELIEVE that both my survival and my salvation depend upon my willingness to reject INDIVIDUALISM and so I commit my life to the liberation struggle of Black people and accept the values, ethics, morals and program of the Black Nation, defined by that struggle, and taught by the Black Christian Nationalist Movement."

So they're a bit like African Hebrew Israelites, except with a Christian rather than a Jewish veneer. They seem to admire the African Orthodox Church (the one with ties to Marcus Garvey); why they didn't just join that group, I'm not sure. Maybe it's because Garvey's AOC doesn't explicitly adopt "Afro-Israelism" the way the PAOCC do.

I suspect they might have just called themselves Orthodox in order to distance themselves from Protestantism and Catholicism while keeping a recognizably Christian name. They're probably taking advantage of the fact that many Americans (regardless of race) have relatively little idea of what the term Orthodox Church means except that it's some sort of weird ethnic Catholic thing (in their minds).

[Minnesotan]

This church has some Orthodox-like verbiage here and there on its site. But it uses many terms I've heard in a Protestant context as well, and I can't seem to detect any ties to the more well-known Orthodox jurisdictions.

Don't worry, it's probably a Coptic 'Orthodox' "mission" church website!

Nope, as stated above, this is a black nationalist (I would call them "Afro-Israelists" by analogy with Anglo-Israelism) group.

[qawe]

This church has some Orthodox-like verbiage here and there on its site. But it uses many terms I've heard in a Protestant context as well, and I can't seem to detect any ties to the more well-known Orthodox jurisdictions.

Don't worry, it's probably a Coptic 'Orthodox' "mission" church website!

Nope, as stated above, this is a black nationalist (I would call them "Afro-Israelists" by analogy with Anglo-Israelism) group.

Clearly the sarcasm is lost on you: http://stsachurch.org

[Severian]

Clearly the sarcasm is lost on you: http://stsachurch.org

Having clicked on the link, I will now have to gouge out my own eyes.

[Elisha]

I'm the church of St. John Coltrane is related somehow....I still need to make a visit one of these days.

http://www.coltranechurch.org/

[Antonious Nikolas]

Paging AntoniousNikolas...

Looks like just another cult appropriating the term Orthodox because they think it sounds mystical, Eastern, and unconnected to the white Western world and all of its evils.

And the fact that your joke went over Minnesotan's head and he responded by reiterating his assessment of the group in question - including the "I would call them 'Afro-Israelists' bit -lol - is priceless! 

Clearly the sarcasm is lost on you: http://stsachurch.org

Having clicked on the link, I will now have to gouge out my own eyes.

Worship Without Limits!  Coming soon to a Coptic Church near you!

I'm the church of St. John Coltrane is related somehow....I still need to make a visit one of these days.

http://www.coltranechurch.org/

Or, as qawe said, just visit your local Coptic "mission parish".  The Coptic Church before rampant and egregious heteropraxis was permitted in the name of keeping "za youzh" in the pews, and no bishop had the fortitude to call it what it was; the Coptic Church after.

[wgw]

Indeed, it is horrific to see the degeneration that occurs, although I would cite this trend as starting to recerse itself under the figures of HG Abanoub who has been driving Protestant influences out of his diocese with much fierceness.  What I especially hate about the movements you detest, Antonious, is their embrace of ethnophyletism: the common denominator at such degenerated Coptic heterodox parishes becomes Coptic ethnic heritage rather than the Oriental Orthodox faith as experienced through the traditional liturgy of the Coptic church.  That faith is so valuable that all efforts at retaining the youth must be directed at explaining it to them, but if such explanations are insufficient and the Coptic church loses its hold over the Coptic diaspora, then, alas; if the Coptic Church were to be reduced to ten monks praying in one of the ancient Egyptian monasteries, or in a converted warehouse in Dresden, for that matter, according to the ancient rites, that would be better than dilluting the faith in this manner.

Lamentably, it must be conceded that the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, as demonstrated by their own disunity, do not have a monopoly on the use of the word "Orthodoxy" in the English language.  Indeed, I once came across a polemical book dating from the 19th century by a Lutheran pastor urging Lutherans to avoid "heterodox" churches like Methodist, Episcopalian and Presbyterian, and God forbid, Baptist, parishes, and attend only "Orthodox Lutheran churches."  I believe I downloaded this work to the as a PDF to the Heresy section in iBooks on my iPad.

[Minnesotan]

Indeed, it is horrific to see the degeneration that occurs, although I would cite this trend as starting to recerse itself under the figures of HG Abanoub who has been driving Protestant influences out of his diocese with much fierceness.  What I especially hate about the movements you detest, Antonious, is their embrace of ethnophyletism: the common denominator at such degenerated Coptic heterodox parishes becomes Coptic ethnic heritage rather than the Oriental Orthodox faith as experienced through the traditional liturgy of the Coptic church.  That faith is so valuable that all efforts at retaining the youth must be directed at explaining it to them, but if such explanations are insufficient and the Coptic church loses its hold over the Coptic diaspora, then, alas; if the Coptic Church were to be reduced to ten monks praying in one of the ancient Egyptian monasteries, or in a converted warehouse in Dresden, for that matter, according to the ancient rites, that would be better than dilluting the faith in this manner.

Lamentably, it must be conceded that the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, as demonstrated by their own disunity, do not have a monopoly on the use of the word "Orthodoxy" in the English language.  Indeed, I once came across a polemical book dating from the 19th century by a Lutheran pastor urging Lutherans to avoid "heterodox" churches like Methodist, Episcopalian and Presbyterian, and God forbid, Baptist, parishes, and attend only "Orthodox Lutheran churches."  I believe I downloaded this work to the as a PDF to the Heresy section in iBooks on my iPad.

The use of the term "Lutheran Orthodoxy" has a long history. However, the prospects for any real union or similarity to the EO or OO churches ended with the Osiandrian controversy, since Osiander's views (which were closest to those of Orthodoxy) were rejected in favor of Flacius' more forensic, (and more distinctly Protestant) soteriology. The subsequent failed dialogue with Patriarch Jeremias might have gone very differently if Osiander had won out.

[Antonious Nikolas]

Indeed, it is horrific to see the degeneration that occurs, although I would cite this trend as starting to recerse itself under the figures of HG Abanoub who has been driving Protestant influences out of his diocese with much fierceness. 

I wish there were more like him, especially in the diaspora.  Ask qawe or Severian if there are any Coptic bishops in the "Lands of Immigration" doing what H.G. Anba Abanoub did in Muqattam in any of the strongholds of heteropraxis here.

What I especially hate about the movements you detest, Antonious, is their embrace of ethnophyletism: the common denominator at such degenerated Coptic heterodox parishes becomes Coptic ethnic heritage rather than the Oriental Orthodox faith as experienced through the traditional liturgy of the Coptic church.

They would tell you that they were the exact opposite of the ethnophyletists and that they were doing what they were doing because they were interested in bringing non-Egyptians like yourself into the Church.  When you protested, they would tell you that you had convertitis and were trying to "out Orthodox the Orthodox", by which they mean themselves, because they were baptized at 40 days and must be Orthodox no matter what they actually practice or believe.  But you're right, although much of this stuff is done in the name of evangelism, it has more to do with catering to the parents of spoiled youth who have grown accustomed to having everything on their own terms, including "worship" and who will bail if their particular desires in this regard aren't satisfied.

Lamentably, it must be conceded that the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, as demonstrated by their own disunity, do not have a monopoly on the use of the word "Orthodoxy" in the English language. 

No one ever said they did, but there is a marked difference between an Orthodox Presbyterian, who uses the term to mean that he clings to the Presbyterian faith in its purist form against Modernist theology and pretends no associations with the Orthodox Church whatsoever, and some cult that pretends it is Orthodox in the sense that the term refers to the Eastern and Oriental Churches.

[qawe]

Indeed, it is horrific to see the degeneration that occurs, although I would cite this trend as starting to recerse itself under the figures of HG Abanoub who has been driving Protestant influences out of his diocese with much fierceness. 

I wish there were more like him, especially in the diaspora.  Ask qawe or Severian if there are any Coptic bishops in the "Lands of Immigration" doing what H.G. Anba Abanoub did in Muqattam in any of the strongholds of heteropraxis here.

The best example I am aware of is the work of Anba Serapion in St John, West Covina over the last few years (I'm not saying the parish is perfect, but there seems to have been a strong shift in a positive direction, compared to other parishes where the only moves seem to be towards more and more spiritual innovation).  The only way it works is when (1) the parish is in a diocese, (2) the bishop is soliy Orthodox, (3) the bishop has the authority to make changes (very few Coptoc bishops are as influential as Anba Serapion).

[wgw]

Indeed, I very much admire HG Serapion and he happens to be my bishop.

I think it must also be understood that HG Serapion has a much larger problem than HG Muqattam.  The US, especially in the extra diocesan areas, has been a hotbed for this Protestantization, which reached its nadir at St. Marks in Washington despite their rather good, traditional recordings of the liturgy of Ss. Gregory and Cyril and their rather traditional, as opposed to faux Greek, iconostasis, among established parishes, at least.  The mission parishes are far worse.  HG Serapion has allowed to my knowledge English only mission parosh but aside from an exclusive use of English and preaumably/hopefully a little Greco-Coptic liturgical spice, my understanding is they have no other innovations.   The liturgy at Ss. Mary and Athansius, from which Coptic television is broadcast, is throughly traditional.  But there is huge inertia here and contaminating influences.

Also I was told that in Muqattam the impoverished Copts primarily attend one large church, and before Anba Abanoub arrived this was literally being coopted by actual Protestant missionaries who had taken over providing servoces there to a certain extent, and in the midst of the crisis that was mentioned to me involving the deposed President Mubarak killing all of the local swine, and the harship this caused, the deteriorating ecclesiastical aituation slipped briefly under the radar.  That is the story I got at any rate from one of the monks at St. Anthonys on a recent visit.  There was much admiration for how His Grace had just put his most graceful foot down and with a strongly worded sermon, available on YouTube with English subtitles, and a sewming wave of his crosier (if this was of the double snake head variety it amuses me to think the emerald eyes would have at that moment flashed) put down the problem.  Of course I am joking;  it was in fact rather harder than that, in fact, probably so much work went into it that this will perhaps one day be regarded as grounds for declaring Anba Abanoub glorified.

HG Serapipn and his colleagues in North America however I think face the same problem that HG Abanoub did, but with the added complexities of geographical diversity (it would take a long time for HG Serapion just to visit all the parishes in his diocese...compare then the massove size of the Diocese of the South).  Also the adjacent population being heterodox Christian rather than Muslim compounds the problem by creating a fuzzy barrier or the appearance of one to the parishioners.   I believe more bishops are needed even if it requires temporarily depleting some of the monasteries (at least there seems to be no shortage of vocation).  All churches should ideally be under a diocesan bishop and all dioceses should be proportionate in size to those in Egypt where possible, and each church should have at least one hierarchical liturgy per year.

[qawe]

Also the adjacent population being heterodox Christian rather than Muslim compounds the problem by creating a fuzzy barrier or the appearance of one to the parishioners.

I don't agree.  I think the presence of Islam actually creates more among "all the Christians" in Egypt.  In the pluralistic West, you are forced to show your hand a bit more - are you a doctrinal absolutist (Orthodox), or a relativist (not Christian at all).

[qawe]

Also the adjacent population being heterodox Christian rather than Muslim compounds the problem by creating a fuzzy barrier or the appearance of one to the parishioners.

I don't agree.  I think the presence of Islam actually creates more among "all the Christians" in Egypt.  In the pluralistic West, you are forced to show your hand a bit more - are you a doctrinal absolutist (Orthodox), or a relativist (not Christian at all).

Sorry, the word "solidarity" is meant to be inserted in the bolded section.
I would also add that the heterodox have a strong presence in Egypt as well.

[Severian]

Or, as qawe said, just visit your local Coptic "mission parish".  The Coptic Church before rampant and egregious heteropraxis was permitted in the name of keeping "za youzh" in the pews, and no bishop had the fortitude to call it what it was; the Coptic Church after.

The painful irony of all this is that we, "za youzh (at least the ones I know)," are not at all interested in jettisoning our faith and Orthopraxy. Most of my friends are fellow Coptic Orthodox and the overwhelming majority of us are eager to grow in our faith through Patristic, Monastic and Liturgical study. We are secure in our ecclesiological identity and are ashamed of those who want to dilute our faith in the name of "winning souls" to the Church. We WANT to read the Fathers, not some Protestant dribble. We WANT to sing Tasbeha, not "praise and worship" songs.

[qawe]

Or, as qawe said, just visit your local Coptic "mission parish".  The Coptic Church before rampant and egregious heteropraxis was permitted in the name of keeping "za youzh" in the pews, and no bishop had the fortitude to call it what it was; the Coptic Church after.

The painful irony of all this is that we, "za youzh (at least the ones I know)," are not at all interested in jettisoning our faith and Orthopraxy. Most of my friends are fellow Coptic Orthodox and the overwhelming majority of us are eager to grow in our faith through Patristic, Monastic and Liturgical study. We are secure in our ecclesiological identity and are ashamed of those who want to dilute our faith in the name of "winning souls" to the Church. We WANT to read the Fathers, not some Protestant dribble. We WANT to sing Tasbeha, not "praise and worship" songs.

This is true.  In the West, those who are insecure become agnostics.  Those who are secure remain staunchly Orthodox.  Only those who are actually deceived by prominent Charismatic theological ignoramuses in the Church are attracted towards Protestantism - but are staunch in their faith and would have been Orthodox had they not been deceived.  We in the West who are tempted by syncretism and anthropocentrism have far more attractive options than the Charismatism those Egyptians who are similarly tempted opt for.  Christianity in the West necessarily involves being radically countercultural, whereas this is not the case in the same way in Egypt.  In the West, if someone is demanding Hillsong because they are not prepared to be countercultural, they are a lost cause in relation to almost any organised religion.

[Antonious Nikolas]

Or, as qawe said, just visit your local Coptic "mission parish".  The Coptic Church before rampant and egregious heteropraxis was permitted in the name of keeping "za youzh" in the pews, and no bishop had the fortitude to call it what it was; the Coptic Church after.

The painful irony of all this is that we, "za youzh (at least the ones I know)," are not at all interested in jettisoning our faith and Orthopraxy. Most of my friends are fellow Coptic Orthodox and the overwhelming majority of us are eager to grow in our faith through Patristic, Monastic and Liturgical study. We are secure in our ecclesiological identity and are ashamed of those who want to dilute our faith in the name of "winning souls" to the Church. We WANT to read the Fathers, not some Protestant dribble. We WANT to sing Tasbeha, not "praise and worship" songs.

God bless you and reward you.  I'll try to keep this in mind next time I show up at one of our youth events and see some clown with a six string singing Matt Redman songs, and some "cool" priest on the sidelines closing his eyes and bobbing his head.

In the West, those who are insecure become agnostics.  Those who are secure remain staunchly Orthodox.  Only those who are actually deceived by prominent Charismatic theological ignoramuses in the Church are attracted towards Protestantism - but are staunch in their faith and would have been Orthodox had they not been deceived.  We in the West who are tempted by syncretism and anthropocentrism have far more attractive options than the Charismatism those Egyptians who are similarly tempted opt for.  Christianity in the West necessarily involves being radically countercultural, whereas this is not the case in the same way in Egypt.  In the West, if someone is demanding Hillsong because they are not prepared to be countercultural, they are a lost cause in relation to almost any organised religion.

+1

Very well put.

[podkarpatska]

I so tire of the bashing of the west, the enlightenment and so on. I am sure we all would be happier and closer to God by remaining in bondage, by remaining serfs, slaves, living as superstitious and  illiterate peasants etc.. beholden to the 'benevolent' rule of an 'enlightened, God fearing ruler' .... Every age of man has been tempted by darkness, evil and injustice. The modern age is no different.

This is when and where we live. This is where we have come into existence for our own journey and our salvation and Theosis. The Church and our Faith is our Ark, whether it is guided to the rocks or sails as smoothly as is possible in our fallen world is our task.

[Minnesotan]

I so tire of the bashing of the west, the enlightenment and so on. I am sure we all would be happier and closer to God by remaining in bondage, by remaining serfs, slaves, living as superstitious and  illiterate peasants etc.. beholden to the 'benevolent' rule of an 'enlightened, God fearing ruler' .... Every age of man has been tempted by darkness, evil and injustice. The modern age is no different.

This is when and where we live. This is where we have come into existence for our own journey and our salvation and Theosis. The Church and our Faith is our Ark, whether it is guided to the rocks or sails as smoothly as is possible in our fallen world is our task.

+100

A lot of "anti-modernists" and traditionalists who romanticize the distant past probably wouldn't survive very long back in the time periods they lionize. (And I'm saying this as someone who has a natural tendency to think the same way. I think it's a form of escapism that appeals to people who are dissatisfied with their everyday lives).

It reminds me in a way of suburban white kids who listen to gangsta rap, wear do-rags and try to act as inner-city as possible. Would they actually enjoy living in Compton? I doubt it.

[Antonious Nikolas]

I so tire of the bashing of the west, the enlightenment and so on. I am sure we all would be happier and closer to God by remaining in bondage, by remaining serfs, slaves, living as superstitious and  illiterate peasants etc.. beholden to the 'benevolent' rule of an 'enlightened, God fearing ruler' .... Every age of man has been tempted by darkness, evil and injustice. The modern age is no different.

This is when and where we live. This is where we have come into existence for our own journey and our salvation and Theosis. The Church and our Faith is our Ark, whether it is guided to the rocks or sails as smoothly as is possible in our fallen world is our task.

This seems like sort of a non-sequitur.  Who is doing that in this thread?  Are you referring to something on the website of the church in question?

[Minnesotan]

I so tire of the bashing of the west, the enlightenment and so on. I am sure we all would be happier and closer to God by remaining in bondage, by remaining serfs, slaves, living as superstitious and  illiterate peasants etc.. beholden to the 'benevolent' rule of an 'enlightened, God fearing ruler' .... Every age of man has been tempted by darkness, evil and injustice. The modern age is no different.

This is when and where we live. This is where we have come into existence for our own journey and our salvation and Theosis. The Church and our Faith is our Ark, whether it is guided to the rocks or sails as smoothly as is possible in our fallen world is our task.

This seems like sort of a non-sequitur.  Who is doing that in this thread?  Are you referring to something on the website of the church in question?

IrishPilgrim was doing that in the "Irish Orthodoxy" thread. Perhaps podkarpatska meant to post the comment there.

[qawe]

The painful irony of all this is that we, "za youzh (at least the ones I know)," are not at all interested in jettisoning our faith and Orthopraxy. Most of my friends are fellow Coptic Orthodox and the overwhelming majority of us are eager to grow in our faith through Patristic, Monastic and Liturgical study. We are secure in our ecclesiological identity and are ashamed of those who want to dilute our faith in the name of "winning souls" to the Church. We WANT to read the Fathers, not some Protestant dribble. We WANT to sing Tasbeha, not "praise and worship" songs.

This is true, to a significant extent even in the most liberal parishes.

The worst part for me is seeing youth who have been more or less Orthodox in their high school years  graduate school and actually become corrupted by the Pentecostalism in the youth meetings and other meetings.  Silly debates about "meeting people where they are" aside, our churches are leading good Orthodox Christians away from Christ.