Poll

What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?

Mode 1
0 (0%)
Mode 2
1 (9.1%)
Mode 3
1 (9.1%)
Mode 4
3 (27.3%)
Plagal mode 1
1 (9.1%)
Plagal mode 2
1 (9.1%)
Varys
1 (9.1%)
Plagal mode 4
3 (27.3%)

Total Members Voted: 11

Author Topic: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?  (Read 3868 times)

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Online rakovsky

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Hello!

Here on OC.net I had a conversation where we discussed the meaning of Archbishop Petrosyan's words on Armenian Christology. He wrote:

Quote
Говорим две природы, чтобы с одной стороны показать нераздельное единство двух природ, с другой — акцентировать внимание на том, что по причине соединения с Божественным Логосом человеческая совершенная природа обожилась (освятилась). Соответственно, по соединении должно исповедовать только Одну природу — Божественную, состоящую из нераздельного единства двух сущностей — совершенной Божественной и совершенной человеческой природ.

My translation of this text is:
Quote
We say two natures, on one hand to show an indivisible unity of the two natures, on the other - to focus on the fact that because of the connection with the divine Logos, the perfectly human nature became divine (sanctified). Accordingly, based on the union we must confess only one nature - the divine one, consisting of an indivisible unity of the two essences - the perfectly divine and perfectly human natures.
http://www.bogoslov.ru/text/510783.html

Can you please confirm that I have correctly translated this passage into English, particularly the underlined part?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 11:32:49 AM by LizaSymonenko »
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Offline Salpy

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Re: Please help check this passage in Russian for a conversation on OC.net
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2015, 11:38:46 AM »
I'm going to ask that if anyone translates this text, that they translate the entire text of the article it comes from.

Thanks.

Offline Maria

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Re: Please help check this passage in Russian for a conversation on OC.net
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2015, 11:43:16 AM »
I'm going to ask that if anyone translates this text, that they translate the entire text of the article it comes from.

Thanks.

Yes, context is very important.
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Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Online rakovsky

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Re: Please help check this passage in Russian for a conversation on OC.net
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2015, 01:20:57 PM »
This is from the book:

Հայ Եկեղեցու Քրիստոսաբանոությունը (Եզնիկ Ծ. Վարդապետ Պետրոսյան)

Вардапет Езник Петросян. Христология Армянской Церкви. Св. Эчмиадзин, 1995, сс. 85-92.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Online rakovsky

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Re: Please help check this passage in Russian for a conversation on OC.net
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2015, 01:29:18 PM »
I'm going to ask that if anyone translates this text, that they translate the entire text of the article it comes from.

Thanks.

Yes, context is very important.
I included the context by translating the surrounding paragraphs. You don't have to translate the entire seven page summary to understand what he is saying in this paragraph.

You're going to have to try to get a copy of his Armenian book or write to him yourself in Armenian, because you can't reasonably expect me to translate the entire seven pages into English and then have a Russian speaker read it all and confirm it.
The ocean, infinite to men, and the worlds beyond it, are directed by the same ordinances of the Lord. ~ I Clement 20

Offline Salpy

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Re: Please help check this passage in Russian for a conversation on OC.net
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2015, 03:35:07 PM »
I'd like someone else to translate it.  Thank you.

Offline DennyB

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Protestants call for unity w/ the Roman Catholic Church
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2015, 09:33:00 AM »
Wasn't sure where to post this, but anyway, I am scratching my head a little bit on this one! I'm not sure why someone like Rick Warren would want to unite with Catholicism, from what I understand Warren is quite knowledgeable of Church history, and has conversed with several Orthodox priests on a number of occasions. I have no problems with Mr. Osteen, the doctrinal depth of this person quite clear, and can see why He would easily be persuaded.

http://realnewsrightnow.com/2015/07/protestant-leaders-declare-reunification-of-churches-under-the-holy-see/
« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 09:33:24 AM by DennyB »

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Protestants call for unity w/ the Roman Catholic Church
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2015, 09:46:10 AM »
Not surprised with Osteen, him and Pope Francis will get along just great. With the way Rome been I wouldn't be shocked if Osteen becomes Pope one day. Rick Warren fit in with those two with his purpose driven stuff.

Offline DennyB

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Re: Protestants call for unity w/ the Roman Catholic Church
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2015, 10:23:35 AM »
Not surprised with Osteen, him and Pope Francis will get along just great. With the way Rome been I wouldn't be shocked if Osteen becomes Pope one day. Rick Warren fit in with those two with his purpose driven stuff.

Good points! It would seem to me that the one's who would be more inclined toward unification would be those that didn't hold to the more hardened Reformed positions, such as John MacArthur Jr. and R.C. Sproul types, they would fight kicking and screaming to any unification.

Offline DennyB

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Re: Protestants call for unity w/ the Roman Catholic Church
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2015, 10:29:59 AM »
It seems I recalled seeing a video with MacArthur, Horton, and Sproul in a Q&A regarding Eastern Orthodoxy, it was quite clear they were ignorant of Eastern Orthodox teaching!

Offline eddybear

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Re: Protestants call for unity w/ the Roman Catholic Church
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2015, 11:35:00 AM »
You do realise this is a spoof site?

Offline lovesupreme

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Re: Protestants call for unity w/ the Roman Catholic Church
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2015, 12:32:47 PM »
You do realise this is a spoof site?

No kidding. This sort of thing would not have happened overnight...

Offline Cognomen

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Re: Protestants call for unity w/ the Roman Catholic Church
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2015, 12:33:35 PM »
You do realise this is a spoof site?

You're spoiling it!
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Offline Minnesotan

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Re: Protestants call for unity w/ the Roman Catholic Church
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2015, 01:43:27 PM »
Well, Ulf Ekman (the erstwhile leader of one of the largest charismatic megachurches in Sweden) has since become Catholic. So if he can do it....
« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 01:43:40 PM by Minnesotan »
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline DennyB

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Re: Protestants call for unity w/ the Roman Catholic Church
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2015, 08:58:19 PM »
You do realise this is a spoof site?

I remember also seeing this article on another more reputable site, but I don't remember who authored the piece.

Offline minasoliman

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Re: Protestants call for unity w/ the Roman Catholic Church
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2015, 11:55:21 PM »
Lol! Spoof sites have been tricking our oc.net members lately.

And yea, there's no way the likes of Osteen or Warren who seem so ingrained in their respective Protestant traditions could consider any form of Apostolic Christianity, and more so the former than the latter for his business model of prosperity gospel, where his greed for mammon will never allow him to consider a true Christian life.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 11:57:08 PM by minasoliman »
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Re: Protestants call for unity w/ the Roman Catholic Church
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2015, 11:30:43 AM »
Lol! Spoof sites have been tricking our oc.net members lately.

And yea, there's no way the likes of Osteen or Warren who seem so ingrained in their respective Protestant traditions could consider any form of Apostolic Christianity, and more so the former than the latter for his business model of prosperity gospel, where his greed for mammon will never allow him to consider a true Christian life.
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Re: Protestants call for unity w/ the Roman Catholic Church
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2015, 11:40:15 AM »
Lol! Spoof sites have been tricking our oc.net members lately.

And yea, there's no way the likes of Osteen or Warren who seem so ingrained in their respective Protestant traditions could consider any form of Apostolic Christianity, and more so the former than the latter for his business model of prosperity gospel, where his greed for mammon will never allow him to consider a true Christian life.
Never say never. There is the story of an anti-Christian, persecuting Pharisee who saw the light while on a road trip and became the Church's greatest evangelist.

And the aforementioned Ulf Ekman (who previously taught Word of Faith, the same extreme form of the prosperity gospel taught by Creflo Dollar and Benny Hinn). As a general rule, Word of Faith people make even Osteen look like an ascetic.
I'm not going to be posting as much on OC.Net as before. I might stop in once in a while though. But I've come to realize that real life is more important.

Offline seekeroftruth777

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Re: Protestants call for unity w/ the Roman Catholic Church
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2015, 06:51:58 PM »
Lol! Spoof sites have been tricking our oc.net members lately.

And yea, there's no way the likes of Osteen or Warren who seem so ingrained in their respective Protestant traditions could consider any form of Apostolic Christianity, and more so the former than the latter for his business model of prosperity gospel, where his greed for mammon will never allow him to consider a true Christian life.
Never say never. There is the story of an anti-Christian, persecuting Pharisee who saw the light while on a road trip and became the Church's greatest evangelist.

And the aforementioned Ulf Ekman (who previously taught Word of Faith, the same extreme form of the prosperity gospel taught by Creflo Dollar and Benny Hinn). As a general rule, Word of Faith people make even Osteen look like an ascetic.

there worse than osteen?

Offline homedad76

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Re: Protestants call for unity w/ the Roman Catholic Church
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2015, 10:31:46 PM »
As far as the few former evangelical celebrities that may have left their faith for Latinism or Orthodoxy they typically do it individually and relatively quietly.  If Joel Osteen suddenly had a revelation and wanted to be Orthodox he would not likely bring his whole congregation with him.
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Offline Rhinosaur

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Re: Protestants call for unity w/ the Roman Catholic Church
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2015, 12:23:23 AM »
As far as the few former evangelical celebrities that may have left their faith for Latinism or Orthodoxy they typically do it individually and relatively quietly.  If Joel Osteen suddenly had a revelation and wanted to be Orthodox he would not likely bring his whole congregation with him.

Who knows?  He does hold a good bit of sway over many people.

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Re: Please help check this passage in Russian for a conversation on OC.net
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2015, 12:31:37 PM »
The translation seems to be ok. My only concern would be that translation of "совершенная" would be more akin to "complete" that "perfect" as you wrote. That does not change the context, though.
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Re: Please help check this passage in Russian for a conversation on OC.net
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2016, 06:19:29 PM »
Hello, your translation is ok. "Совершенная" is "perfect" ("complete" is "полная", but it is some possible nuance). (I'm russian from Moscow).

But i think exist a confusion not in your translation but in theological language between Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxes (not only it, but in big part it). If you see the text of Holly Gregory the Great (of Nazianzus) about Holly Athanasius the Great (of Alexandria): in time of Athanasius in west they translate the greek word "3 hypostases" (because in latin language this word exist not) like "3 faces". And after in Grece they think what in Rome they confess the heresy of Saveliy (about tree faces of one hypostasis). And in Rome thinked what in Grece they are in arian heresy and say something like "3 essences". And only the authority of Holly Athanase help to stop the division by missunderstanding.

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Re: Please help check this passage in Russian for a conversation on OC.net
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2016, 07:09:55 PM »
Thank you for writing, Dimitryet!

I wish to bring to your attention the issue you raised on another thread - whether "nature" means "person/face/subject" in Oriental Orthodoxy.

Could you please tell me whether I understand this quotation by Abp. Petrosian correctly:

"The term 'nature' means general, and 'face/person' - personal. One nature can have several faces/persons, as we can see in case of the human and divine natures."

Термин «природа» обозначает общее, а «лицо» — частное. Одна природа может иметь несколько лиц, как можем видеть в случае с человеческой и божественной природами.

http://www.bogoslov.ru/text/510783.html

Thank you.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 07:10:13 PM by rakovsky »
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Offline Dimitryet

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Re: Please help check this passage in Russian for a conversation on OC.net
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2016, 05:30:27 AM »
Yes, certainly, in developped languages it is.

But i say what in primitive old language it's may be the same term for all. Like in russian exist the expression "лицо природы" - "face of nature" what signifie what all the nature (forest and sea and sky) has one face. But it's simply poetical and intuitive. In philosophy and theology we reconize what you say: one nature may to have (Divine Nature Really Have) 3 hypostases with own face and personnality of any hypostasis. Also one personnality in Jesus Christ with 2 natures.

But i say what in old primitive and intuitive languages it's may be more diffucult to see it. Also like them icons Oriental Churches are naives.

About languages i readed it in french catholic book when i lived in France. But i don't know this old  languages for verify myself. But i think it's should be true.

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What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2016, 03:20:25 PM »
Chanting Vespers this weekend, because it was a fairly ordinal day, all the hymns of the Resurrection from Psalm 140 and Aposticha were in fourth mode. Even the stichera for the saint of the day were also in the fourth mode. It is my least favorite mode to chant in, especially when I have to do it for all of the service.  Now, maybe this has to stem from the fact that I don't seem to be able to do much with that mode.  That said, I do love the hard chromatic of that mode as represented by κατεπλαγη Ιωσεφ.
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Re: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2016, 07:17:24 AM »
Plagal mode 2. But it's perspective of a listener, not a chanter.
That's the unique tone that I prefer in Eastern Slavic variations.
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Re: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2016, 10:27:38 AM »
I hate all modes with different Irmologic and Sticheric isons, imperfects, and finals. Tricksie scalesesesss.
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Re: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2016, 10:44:43 AM »
Plagal mode 1. It's the most black metal.

A-neeeee-a-a-a-a-nes!
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Re: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2016, 11:17:16 AM »
It's difficult for me to pinpoint a favorite, I would have to think more about it.

Κατεπλάγη Ιωσήφ is probably my favorite prosomion, and tone four my least favorite tone in general, so that's a funny coincidence.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 11:17:30 AM by Antonis »
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Re: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2016, 11:34:06 AM »

Κατεπλάγη Ιωσήφ is probably my favorite prosomion, and tone four my least favorite tone in general, so that's a funny coincidence.

I agree.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2016, 11:35:01 AM by scamandrius »
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Re: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2016, 11:35:50 AM »
Plagal mode 1. It's the most black metal.

A-neeeee-a-a-a-a-nes!

I can see that.  Maybe one day I can try to arrange a heavy metal version of the Evlogetaria. 
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Re: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2016, 02:27:51 PM »
Plagal mode 1. It's the most black metal.

A-neeeee-a-a-a-a-nes!

I can see that.  Maybe one day I can try to arrange a heavy metal version of the Evlogetaria.

LOL, this is why people aren't always so keen about converts. 
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Re: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2016, 02:38:23 PM »
Isn't Plagal 4 supposed to be soul-damaging according to Greek pagan philosophers?
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Re: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2016, 02:42:17 PM »
Chanting Vespers this weekend, because it was a fairly ordinal day, all the hymns of the Resurrection from Psalm 140 and Aposticha were in fourth mode. Even the stichera for the saint of the day were also in the fourth mode. It is my least favorite mode to chant in, especially when I have to do it for all of the service.  Now, maybe this has to stem from the fact that I don't seem to be able to do much with that mode.  That said, I do love the hard chromatic of that mode as represented by κατεπλαγη Ιωσεφ.

Fourth is presently the most stressful mode for me. The chanters I work with all learned to do it the wrong way (the Basil Kazan way) with vou about a quarter tone too sharp, as if it were an E on a 12-tone equal tempered scale. When done correctly though, legetos and sticheraric agia have a very unusual sound which I like very much.
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Re: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2016, 04:29:54 PM »
I don't know the "number," but the one they use to start the Triodion always makes me sad.
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Re: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2016, 05:11:13 PM »
Plagal mode 1. It's the most black metal.

A-neeeee-a-a-a-a-nes!
Nooo! It's my second favourite (after the 1st mode)
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2016, 08:15:22 PM »
Plagal mode 1. It's the most black metal.

A-neeeee-a-a-a-a-nes!

I can see that.  Maybe one day I can try to arrange a heavy metal version of the Evlogetaria.

LOL, this is why people aren't always so keen about converts.

Yeah, because all converts do is make time honored melodies as the bases to sell hard core thrash albums.
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Re: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2016, 09:16:50 PM »
Chanting Vespers this weekend, because it was a fairly ordinal day, all the hymns of the Resurrection from Psalm 140 and Aposticha were in fourth mode. Even the stichera for the saint of the day were also in the fourth mode. It is my least favorite mode to chant in, especially when I have to do it for all of the service.  Now, maybe this has to stem from the fact that I don't seem to be able to do much with that mode.  That said, I do love the hard chromatic of that mode as represented by κατεπλαγη Ιωσεφ.

Fourth is presently the most stressful mode for me. The chanters I work with all learned to do it the wrong way (the Basil Kazan way) with vou about a quarter tone too sharp, as if it were an E on a 12-tone equal tempered scale. When done correctly though, legetos and sticheraric agia have a very unusual sound which I like very much.
I also enjoy legetos. Maybe I don't dislike four as much as I initially thought.
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Re: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2016, 09:50:55 PM »
Chanting Vespers this weekend, because it was a fairly ordinal day, all the hymns of the Resurrection from Psalm 140 and Aposticha were in fourth mode. Even the stichera for the saint of the day were also in the fourth mode. It is my least favorite mode to chant in, especially when I have to do it for all of the service.  Now, maybe this has to stem from the fact that I don't seem to be able to do much with that mode.  That said, I do love the hard chromatic of that mode as represented by κατεπλαγη Ιωσεφ.

Fourth is presently the most stressful mode for me. The chanters I work with all learned to do it the wrong way (the Basil Kazan way) with vou about a quarter tone too sharp, as if it were an E on a 12-tone equal tempered scale. When done correctly though, legetos and sticheraric agia have a very unusual sound which I like very much.
I also enjoy legetos. Maybe I don't dislike four as much as I initially thought.

Here's a good example of the way I like legetos to be chanted. There really is nothing else like it. http://youtu.be/hRV3lFe_qW0
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Re: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2016, 09:53:57 PM »
There is a certain chord or tone or mode in music that was banned in the medieval period in the Latin church because it was considered dark, demonic, or satanic. However, this chord is part of Byzantine and other Eastern chant.

I think there was a youtube video I saw of this where a guitarist played it to explain the difference. Kind of weird issue. To the best of my memory it involved playing things down a key and using flats.
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Re: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2016, 09:57:24 PM »
Plagal mode 1. It's the most black metal.

A-neeeee-a-a-a-a-nes!
Nooo! It's my second favourite (after the 1st mode)

You know what, I misread the thread title. What I meant to say was that plagal 1st was my favorite. My least favorite is probably tone 2. It's too happy.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2016, 10:47:13 PM »
Chanting Vespers this weekend, because it was a fairly ordinal day, all the hymns of the Resurrection from Psalm 140 and Aposticha were in fourth mode. Even the stichera for the saint of the day were also in the fourth mode. It is my least favorite mode to chant in, especially when I have to do it for all of the service.  Now, maybe this has to stem from the fact that I don't seem to be able to do much with that mode.  That said, I do love the hard chromatic of that mode as represented by κατεπλαγη Ιωσεφ.

Fourth is presently the most stressful mode for me. The chanters I work with all learned to do it the wrong way (the Basil Kazan way) with vou about a quarter tone too sharp, as if it were an E on a 12-tone equal tempered scale. When done correctly though, legetos and sticheraric agia have a very unusual sound which I like very much.

You're totally correct.  ANd though it's easy to blame Dr. Kazan and even go back further and blame Sakellerides for the reason why the fourth mode sounds diatonic, I think it's more because of how Sakellerides' theories have been applied by the Greeks in this country and, by extension, the Antiochians.  Dcn (now Fr., I think) Charles Baz, who notated Kazan into Byzantine notation has an appendix about this in his section on the Resurrectional Apolytikia and Theotokia.  He took the liberty of correcting the mode 4 apolytikion and theotokion so that they are on the soft chromatic scale with the appropriate phthora. He also says that in the  MIddle East, 95% of all troparia and kontakia in mode 4 are chanted on the soft chromatic scale and that it is left to us here to correct his usage.  However, considering how ingrained  Kazan is in the Antiochian churches in the USA (for better and for worse), it may be difficult to make any kind of "corrections."
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Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2016, 12:16:18 AM »
I have been with the OCA for so long that I do not recall any Byzantine tone that I liked or hated (I am enclosing some beautiful chants in Church Slavonic--Bulgarian style) That said, I like the Russian Imperial Court tone 1 (think of 1912 overture) and 6. I am not fond of tone 8.   

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Re: What is your least favorite mode/tone in the Byzantine Chanting tradition?
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2016, 12:38:59 AM »
4th can be tricky and repetitive, even exhausting if used to overkill (sorry about youer service you had to prepare!) But Plagial of the 8th was always my worst. I would have rather mastered Verys instead of continueing to train in Plagial of the 8th melodies  It just really stretches you so thin ...up, down, up, down, .......depending on how high the Protopsalti or the Protopresbyter's voice is that day, men have wound up literally shouting it to get through sections of service....which is not my version of the Heaven of Heavens we're supposed to reflect in our voices......

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