Author Topic: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam  (Read 1679 times)

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Offline juliogb

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2018, 07:37:13 AM »
Yeah, this ban on music probably is quite a minoritary thing within Islam, or just ignored. Look at Pakistan and India, that have a huge musical tradition within sufism, specially qawwali that has lots of internationally known singers like Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan and his nephew Rahat Fateh Ali Khan.

Tinariwen is quite good, I like Tamikrest and Bombino as well. North Africa in general has some quite popular music styles, gnawa that is related to sufism as well, the chebs from Algeria, Egyptian pop music.

Turks and persians also have lots of music as well, and quite good too, I know several iranian and turkish singers and bands, some of them related to muslim tradition, sufi turkish music and persian classical music (singers like Sami Yusuf, a british-iranian of azeri origin). I wonder how much of ottoman music and turkish folk music is actually persianized and turkified byzantine music.

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2018, 08:28:39 AM »


Recommended reading for anyone interested in how Islamic youth jive with pop culture.
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Offline hecma925

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2018, 08:34:27 AM »
Are Sufis even real Muslims?
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2018, 08:41:53 AM »
Are Sufis even real Muslims?

Define real muslim.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2018, 09:15:45 AM »
Are Sufis even real Muslims?

If they're not then the vast majority of Muslims have not been "real" throughout history.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #50 on: October 30, 2018, 10:57:21 AM »
Sufism is more related to devotional practices than with doctrinal ones. Sufism has the mytical side, the tasawuf, the breathing, repetition of the 99 names of Allah, in some cases whirling and dancing or extatic movements.

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #51 on: October 30, 2018, 04:21:54 PM »
If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
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Offline hecma925

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Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

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Offline FinnJames

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2018, 08:44:02 AM »
Are Sufis even real Muslims?

Define real muslim.

juliogb gives the best answer to hecma925's question. Whether or not Sufis are 'real Muslims' depends on which Muslim group one asks. It's much like asking if denomination X are 'real Christians'.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 08:44:47 AM by FinnJames »

Offline hecma925

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2018, 08:48:02 AM »
Are Sufis even real Muslims?

Define real muslim.

juliogb gives the best answer to hecma925's question. Whether or not Sufis are 'real Muslims' depends on which Muslim group one asks. It's much like asking if denomination X are 'real Christians'.

So my Muslim neighbor would probably say they are Muslims (or be indifferent), whereas it will be a hard "no" for the Taliban.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2018, 09:20:37 AM »
Are Sufis even real Muslims?

Define real muslim.

juliogb gives the best answer to hecma925's question. Whether or not Sufis are 'real Muslims' depends on which Muslim group one asks. It's much like asking if denomination X are 'real Christians'.

So my Muslim neighbor would probably say they are Muslims (or be indifferent), whereas it will be a hard "no" for the Taliban.

Not exactly, there were sufis in taliban, depends on the order, the ones with lots of music were forbidden. There are several orders with a wide variety of customs, traditions and doctrines. There are eye-popping and weed-smoking sufis of Pakistan and India, whirling tourist-ish dervishes from Turkey (are they all real sufis or professional dancers posing as sufis?), the chechen sufis and their zikr circular dance, there are even some sufi orders that perform rituals very similar to wacky pentecostals, with glossolalia, crazy body moves and stuff like that.

Offline hecma925

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2018, 09:25:08 AM »
Rasta and pentecostal sufis?  Tell me more.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2018, 09:53:07 AM »
One thing needs to be made clear- Sufism is not a denomination or a sect. There are distinct Sufi orders but they are more like devotional brotherhoods, sort of like the various Catholic orders, and you don't need to belong to them to practice some kind of Sufism. Before the advent of Wahhabism/ Deobandism very few people would question Sufism as part of mainstream Islam. Even today, among the largest Muslim populations in the world- Indonesia, India, Pakistan- Sufism is part of mainstream, orthodox Sunni piety. Mughal and Ottoman Islam was infused with Sufism (and the nascent Wahhabi movement, when they weren't slaughtering Shia, directed much ire against Ottoman Islam). There are Shia Sufi orders too- the Safavid empire in Iran was named after one such order, and modern Twelver Shiite piety has a lot of overlap with Sufism.
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Offline juliogb

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #58 on: October 31, 2018, 10:12:42 AM »
One thing needs to be made clear- Sufism is not a denomination or a sect. There are distinct Sufi orders but they are more like devotional brotherhoods, sort of like the various Catholic orders, and you don't need to belong to them to practice some kind of Sufism. Before the advent of Wahhabism/ Deobandism very few people would question Sufism as part of mainstream Islam. Even today, among the largest Muslim populations in the world- Indonesia, India, Pakistan- Sufism is part of mainstream, orthodox Sunni piety. Mughal and Ottoman Islam was infused with Sufism (and the nascent Wahhabi movement, when they weren't slaughtering Shia, directed much ire against Ottoman Islam). There are Shia Sufi orders too- the Safavid empire in Iran was named after one such order, and modern Twelver Shiite piety has a lot of overlap with Sufism.

Indeed, twelver shi'a piety looks a lot like some sort of sufi ritual, it is curious how they repeat hundreds of times the name of Imam Hussein in those 10th Muharram festivals.
This is a nice example of those sufi-shi'a overlaps, the name of the singer is Seyed Majid Bani Fatemeh.
https://youtu.be/YaBt6NfQaMI

Offline Alpha60

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2018, 08:06:10 AM »
One thing needs to be made clear- Sufism is not a denomination or a sect. There are distinct Sufi orders but they are more like devotional brotherhoods, sort of like the various Catholic orders, and you don't need to belong to them to practice some kind of Sufism. Before the advent of Wahhabism/ Deobandism very few people would question Sufism as part of mainstream Islam. Even today, among the largest Muslim populations in the world- Indonesia, India, Pakistan- Sufism is part of mainstream, orthodox Sunni piety. Mughal and Ottoman Islam was infused with Sufism (and the nascent Wahhabi movement, when they weren't slaughtering Shia, directed much ire against Ottoman Islam). There are Shia Sufi orders too- the Safavid empire in Iran was named after one such order, and modern Twelver Shiite piety has a lot of overlap with Sufism.

Indeed so.  The only branch of Islam I am aware of that does not have Sufis is the obscure Ibadi demomination from Oman, which differs from Sunni and Shia Islam in various respects, for example, in not having any respect or veneration for Ali.  The Ibadis predeccessors were a violent faction in early Islam, but my understanding is the contemporary Ibadis tend to be peaceful, and to my knowledge we havent had any major problems with Oman or incidents of terror concerning them.  So in a sense, I would argue they might just as well be Sufis; the main difference between them and most, but not all, Sufis, is the lack of any unusual worship traditions outside of the normal Mosque prayers, although the Ibadis do perform these slightly differently than most other Muslims (the slight difference being they do not raise their arms during prayers before making a prostration).

Of course, some of the most interesting flavors of Sufism are Shi’a Sufis, specifically the Mevlevis, or Whirling Dervishes, and the crypto-Gnostic Alevis, who have a sort of Eucharist called the Sema ritual, celebrated on Thursday night, where men and women sing hymns, dance, worship and drink wine together (and are scurrilously accused of having orgies when they extinguish the three candles at the end of the service by some Sunni muslims in Turkey).  There is the closely related Bektasi Order, which also features monasteries, and is I believe after Sunni Islam and Christianity the third largest religion in Albania.  Tragically their spiritual center in Macedonia, their holiest place as it were, has been illegally occupied by Salafist Sunnis since the 1990s.

The Turkish government is not a fan of the Alevis and Bektasis and regards them with extreme suspicion.  It does not help their case that many Kurds are Alevis, and Bashar Assad is a member of the related Alawi order (which is basically the Syrian and Lebanese chapter of the Alevis).  There are also some Alevis called Ishikists who reject Islam altogether, and the trinity of Allah, Muhammed and Ali worshipped by Alevis and Bektasis, and instead posit that Alevism is derived from and related to an ancient religion of which Zoroastrianism, Yazidism, Yarsanism, and Mandaeism are also variants.   This is possible.  Sheikh Adi, the founder of Yazidism, was, before he rejected most of Islamic doctrine, a wandering Sufi mystic, and the Yarsanis claim the same thing about Sultan Sahak, the founder of their faith; owing to an extreme similiarity of their emanationist doctrine and beliefs such as transmigration, it is considered probable by many authorities that Sultan Sahak and Sheikh Adi were the same historical figure.

It should also be noted that several Sufi sheikhs functioned in an almost Jesuit-like manner; they became generic, wandering Islamic mystics, but in their zeal to convert communities to Islam were willing to engage in extreme syncretism and even to discard, in the case of Yazidism, huge chunks of the Islamic faith.  I am convinced that most or all of these sects are probably derived from isolated Syrian Gnostic communities whose beliefs had taken root among the Kurdish and Turkic settlers in the Levant, owing to the similiarities between their religion and Syrian Gnosticism as expressed by Tatian,  Severian, Mani, and the Ophites, among others (a strongly emanationist Gnosticism which was a bit different from Valentinism and Roman Gnosticism, with much more stress upon angels or archons and a similiarity to Mithraism and Zoroastrianism).   This would also explain Alevi Trinitarianism.

Now these Sufi and psuedo-Sufi sects, related to each other, are vastly different from the Sunni Sufi sects one encounters in West Africa, India and Pakistan, about as different as one could imagine.  The Shia sects I have mentioned, in contrast to the others, tend to be completely non-violent; one of the few commonalities is a tendency in some of them to venerate the shrines of their founders.  Even this is not universal: I haven’t heard of the Mevlevis doing it, although in some cases this is due to their shrines having been destroyed by Islamic fundamentalists over the centuries. 

It is also worth considering that the radical Ansari sect of the Sudan, which followed Muhammed Ahmed al-Mahdi, who claimed to be the Islamic messiah, but who died of a sudden illness three months after conquering Khartoum and killing all of the Egyptian men, women and children, and the British hero General Gordon, who had stayed on to protect them, is nowadays considered a Sunni Sufi sect in the Sudan which retains some political influence (and from what I understand, in an odd twist, is considered to be one of the less violent factions in Sudanese Islam).  The noted actor Alexander Siddig, who among other roles played Dr. Julian Bashir in Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, was born into that sect and is apparently a descendant of Muhammed Ahmed, interestingly enough.
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Offline Iconodule

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #60 on: November 04, 2018, 09:54:14 AM »
The Mevlevis are Sunnis. Also the notion that Sufism necessarily leads to a more peaceful form of Islam is groundless. The Ottomans, Timurids, etc were not exactly pacifists.
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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #61 on: November 04, 2018, 10:13:20 AM »
She was a Rasta for a while. I wish her well. I think she's struggled with mental illness.



Selam
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Offline Cognomen

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #62 on: November 04, 2018, 01:42:20 PM »
One thing needs to be made clear- Sufism is not a denomination or a sect. There are distinct Sufi orders but they are more like devotional brotherhoods, sort of like the various Catholic orders, and you don't need to belong to them to practice some kind of Sufism. Before the advent of Wahhabism/ Deobandism very few people would question Sufism as part of mainstream Islam. Even today, among the largest Muslim populations in the world- Indonesia, India, Pakistan- Sufism is part of mainstream, orthodox Sunni piety. Mughal and Ottoman Islam was infused with Sufism (and the nascent Wahhabi movement, when they weren't slaughtering Shia, directed much ire against Ottoman Islam). There are Shia Sufi orders too- the Safavid empire in Iran was named after one such order, and modern Twelver Shiite piety has a lot of overlap with Sufism.

The only branch of Islam I am aware of that does not have Sufis is the obscure Ibadi demomination from Oman, which differs from Sunni and Shia Islam in various respects, for example, in not having any respect or veneration for Ali.  The Ibadis predeccessors were a violent faction in early Islam, but my understanding is the contemporary Ibadis tend to be peaceful, and to my knowledge we havent had any major problems with Oman or incidents of terror concerning them.  So in a sense, I would argue they might just as well be Sufis...

Except that they aren't Sufi at all (the first part of your statement is correct). One can view Ibadi Islam in a positive light--I do, for the most part--without conflating it with Sufi thought or practice.

And as Iconodule mentions below, your definition of Sufi seems to hinge on elements that may not directly correlate to Sufism.

...the notion that Sufism necessarily leads to a more peaceful form of Islam is groundless. The Ottomans, Timurids, etc were not exactly pacifists.

Plenty of Sufi orders and, well, Sufis themselves, corroborate this. Regardless of the various inaccuracies and shortcomings of the notion, fantasy Sufism nevertheless persists as a purported remedy to violent/dangerous Islam.

If anything I have posted has been illuminating, please remember that I merely reflect the light of others...but also it's me.

Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #63 on: November 04, 2018, 02:52:15 PM »
Was she the shaved head women from the 90's?

Offline Sharbel

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #64 on: November 07, 2018, 12:15:17 AM »
Non-Muslims or 'White People' Are 'Disgusting' - Irish Star Sinead O'Connor
Quote
I never wanna spend time with white people again (if that's what non-muslims are called)... They are disgusting.

Comment removed.  Sharbel, the removed comment was too much for this forum.  I'm giving you a 20% warning.  Please review the rules for the purpose of each forum and follow them.   If you'd like to appeal, please do so via PM.  --Ainnir 
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 08:50:17 AM by Ainnir »
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Offline RaphaCam

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2018, 11:13:56 AM »
The Mevlevis are Sunnis. Also the notion that Sufism necessarily leads to a more peaceful form of Islam is groundless. The Ottomans, Timurids, etc were not exactly pacifists.
Many Bosnian jihadis were Sufis, too.
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Offline Rubricnigel

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #66 on: November 08, 2018, 03:26:55 PM »
Quote Justin Kolodziej: She and Yusuf Islam (fka Cat Stevens) could record a track together I guess.


and Cat could play lead ~ they could do this while parachuting from a blimp and for a fanallie instead of pulling the chute cord they could pull the pin of a ձեռքի նռնակ and smile ```

Who is she anyway ```

I had to google cat steven, but his song Wild World.is a classic. I couldnt place his name, (bad memory) so heres a link to his greatest songs on utube for anyone who (like me) has trouble placing names and songs together.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y8pvXLVu8Yk&list=PL311A0E9A2112081F


Offline Alpha60

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #67 on: November 08, 2018, 04:44:00 PM »
The Mevlevis are Sunnis. Also the notion that Sufism necessarily leads to a more peaceful form of Islam is groundless. The Ottomans, Timurids, etc were not exactly pacifists.

I could have sworn the Mevlevis were Shia, but I defer to your knowledge.

Now just to clarify my post, my view is not that Sufis are inherently or automatically less dangerous than non-Sufis; this would be preposterous given that the most bloodthirsty Islamic fanatics of the late 19th century were the Ansaris, the followers of Muhammed Ahmed al-Mahdi, generally regarded as Sufi dervishes.  Their massacre of the entire Egyptian population of Khartoum was one of the earliest examples in recent history of what I would consider to be Islamic terrorism, although it was waged using conventional military tactics and equipment (contrasted with the Bashi Bazouks, who did engage in genocide but were mercenaries). 

Several other Sufi orders are also known for violence, including if memory serves the Deobandis of India are quite violent.

However, I would argue Alevism and Bektasism are preferrable to Salafism considerably, and much less likely to engage in violence.
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Also, if I have ever offended you in my posts or conduct, I apologize. 

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2018, 01:14:07 AM »
Ach gut gara gut gatchem da blaliolar ```

see the colors when they come to the crossing ```

Offline juliogb

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2018, 11:49:47 AM »
It is so incoherent that women in the West convert to this religion, meanwhile, in Pakistan, a christian woman (I think she is catholic) named Asia Bibi is in prison for 8 years facing death penalty for ''blasphemy'', and now that the supreme court of the country dropped charges, millions of muslims are going to the streets demanding her execution, people are being murdered, christian activists were murdered, her lawyer left the country and islamist leaders are threatening the judges that dropped the charges.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #70 on: November 14, 2018, 12:03:14 PM »
The Mevlevis are Sunnis. Also the notion that Sufism necessarily leads to a more peaceful form of Islam is groundless. The Ottomans, Timurids, etc were not exactly pacifists.

I could have sworn the Mevlevis were Shia, but I defer to your knowledge.

Rumi was a Sunni, as was Hafez and most Iranians prior to the Safavid dynasty. Iranians still love their poetry, apparently, so it's not a big issue for them.

Quote
Several other Sufi orders are also known for violence, including if memory serves the Deobandis of India are quite violent.

Deobandis are not really Sufi. Sometimes they are militantly anti-Sufi. Nowadays they are getting more like a Hanafi equivalent of Wahhabism. The big pro-Sufi movement in the subcontinent is the Barelvis, and they are quite violent. The politician Salman Taseer, who wanted to repeal the blasphemy law in Pakistan, was murdered by his bodyguard, a Barelvi. The killer was widely praised by the Barelvi establishment and after his death, his body was enshrined like a Sufi saint.

Quote
However, I would argue Alevism and Bektasism are preferrable to Salafism considerably, and much less likely to engage in violence.

That's probably true today but that's more due to historical/ cultural circumstances. In Ottoman times the Bektashis were the preferred order of the janissary corps, who were not exactly reputed for their kindness.
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Offline Sharbel

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Re: Sinead O'Connor has converted to Islam
« Reply #71 on: November 15, 2018, 01:09:01 AM »
It is so incoherent that women in the West convert to this religion, meanwhile, in Pakistan, a christian woman (I think she is catholic) named Asia Bibi is in prison for 8 years facing death penalty for ''blasphemy'', and now that the supreme court of the country dropped charges, millions of muslims are going to the streets demanding her execution, people are being murdered, christian activists were murdered, her lawyer left the country and islamist leaders are threatening the judges that dropped the charges.

It gets worse:
UK 'Won't Offer Asylum To Asia Bibi Amid Security Concerns'
Sanctus Deus
ܩܕܝܫܐ ܐܢ̱ܬ ܠܐ ܡܝܘܬܐ
Άγιος ο Θεός