Was Seraphim Rose Gay?

[Veniamin]

If you were not a bishop or monk ext......... would you want to live a celibate life? I don't think anyone would.

I don't want to swallow my temper and forgive people for what they've done to me....but I try to anyway.

I don't want to be concerned about people other than me...but I try to anyway.

I don't want to restrain my sharp tongue when irritated...but I try to anyway.

It's not about what we want to do...it's about what we're supposed to do, regardless of temptations.

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

If you were not a bishop or monk ext......... would you want to live a celibate life? I don't think anyone would.

I am completely straight, I am not a monk and have been happily celibate for 10 years. I will be celebate my entire life as I am a deacon and cannot get married. Celibacy is not as horribly as many people try to paint it. You just have to be able to control your passions.

[Tina]

I don't want to swallow my temper and forgive people for what they've done to me....but I try to anyway.

I don't want to be concerned about people other than me...but I try to anyway.

I don't want to restrain my sharp tongue when irritated...but I try to anyway

It's not about what we want to do...it's about what we're supposed to do, regardless of temptations.

But swallowing your temper is NOT the same as being celibate. I am not encourageing being gay it is just sad that they only have these choices. Yes, life is unfair, many of these people with mental illnesses will never experience being married and true love, just like it is unfair that we live in good houses and allways have food while starving children in third world country's die every day. It is just that people are so judgemental towards gay people who choose to have a same sex partner, I am just trying to stress the fact that it is not so easy as some would think.

[Veniamin]

Resisting a temptation to do what I want to do in favor of what I should do?  They don't sound too different to me when looked at in that frame of reference.

[Anastasios]

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6577.msg86236#msg86236 date=1120756592]
I am completely straight, I am not a monk and have been happily celibate for 10 years. I will be celebate my entire life as I am a deacon and cannot get married. Celibacy is not as horribly as many people try to paint it. You just have to be able to control your passions.
[/quote]

You also have a daughter to share your life with. That makes it easier.

Anastasios

[eleni]

To be Christian one needs Suffering......some more or less then others.
To carry a CROSS is to bear whatever befalls you.
If it is good......then thank the Lord Jesus Christ.
If it is not good......then thank the Lord Jesus Christ.

We know this because the Lives of Saints was not at all fun and games and all good happy moments.....in fact, it was alot of suffering .

QUOTE/// from Tina
She felt pressure from her family to be straight, as many people do,
 they end up getting married and having children and having to deal with knowing that they truly do not want to be in that relationship but they stay because they have created a family and because of this environment, they do not reveal that they are gay. Instead they end up cheating on their spouses or are unhappy for the rest of their lives. Are gay people cursed to only have two choices? Sin or lie to your self and be unhappy.

Tina one cheats because they want to or because the soul is weak with ''passions'' and it is easier to do the will of the devil then it is the will of God.
And what is unhappy?
We all must suffer.......and if unhappy is one of them, then this is SUFFERING for our Lord Jesus Christ who told us this would happen..
Sin or lie to yourself and be unhappy?
Well, Jesus Christ said do not sin!
We are not lieing to ourselves Tina, but giving in to SIN .....we are doing what the Serpant in the garden of Eden did to Eve...eat and you shall not die.....Eve ate because she trusted the serpant(devil)that she will not die ....but as a reult DEATH came into the world....
DEATH as in SPIRITUAL DEATH......away from God ..
God asks AdAM  and Eve for REPENTANCE and both just find EXCUSES to who's fault it was that disobeyed the ONE LAW of God.

We either Pick up our CROSS and follow in Christ's footsteps or we choose the wide and easy path....
What can I say.....
People are unhappy with many different things......that is life!
We also know this because we are told life as a Christian will not be easy......

In latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons" (1 Tim. 4:1).
MEDIA MEDIA MEDIA
and because we choose to wonder the wide and easy road......God allows certain sufferings/temptations  to come our way...for our own benefit.....but on our FREE WILL...

"would not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts" (Rev. 9:2-21, 16:13, 18:23).

We are reminded that Temptations come in all sorts of passions......It is for us to not be tempted but seek help with prayer and fasting ...
I dont see the situation being helped by telling someone that it isnt their fault they are gay.....in fact, quite the opposite can occur....
Proud that one is gay .....is another passion which arrises.
To help someone with whatever PASSION they are experiencing is a different matter......whatever that PASSION may be...

To actually tell someone that the SIN is not their fault but it's the way life is ,is plain stupid because it helps no one and adds to the problem .....
Lets say I murder someone out of anger or because I was threatened.......am I at FAULT?
YES I AM.....
Anger is a sin...
Why should I chose to seek revenge for what I felt?
Doesn't Christ teach otherwise?

Anyway.......

IX
helen
Lord have mercy

[GiC]

If you were not a bishop or monk ext......... would you want to live a celibate life? I don't think anyone would.

I know people who, though having no desire to be a monastic or a bishop, have lived a celibate life and eventually became priests later in life, thus they will be celibate until their death. Celibacy is not necessarily a bad thing, nor is it even necessarily an ascetic discipline. Believe it or not, some people actually prefer celibacy to being married, others are indifferent either way.

[sin_vladimirov]

OFF THE TOPIC:

Welcome to OCnet Tina.

Many years and God bless.

[Tina]

OFF THE TOPIC:

Welcome to OCnet Tina.

Many years and God bless

Thank you.

I know people who, though having no desire to be a monastic or a bishop, have lived a celibate life and eventually became priests later in life, thus they will be celibate until their death.

I would hope that you know that a gay person can not be ordained.

[browneyedgirl]

But swallowing your temper is NOT the same as being celibate. I am not encourageing being gay it is just sad that they only have these choices. Yes, life is unfair, many of these people with mental illnesses will never experience being married and true love, just like it is unfair that we live in good houses and allways have food while starving children in third world country's die every day. It is just that people are so judgemental towards gay people who choose to have a same sex partner, I am just trying to stress the fact that it is not so easy as some would think.

yes, it is sad that gay people have limited choices (sin or remain celibate). no one said it was easy to be gay and to have to make those decisions. life is unfair, but everyone has something in their lives that is unfair. everyone has struggles that they have to deal with, they take on different forms for different people. its hard to overcome temptation, but that doesnt mean that we should just throw in the towel and give in to temptations.

im going to quote eleni...
"People are unhappy with many different things......that is life!
We also know this because we are told life as a Christian will not be easy......"

exactly!

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

You also have a daughter to share your life with. That makes it easier.

Anastasios

I am not sure how having a child makes being celebate any easier. Right now my daughter is on vacation so she is not around for a while and it does not make it any harder for me to live a celibate life. In fact, I find myself even busier when she is gone, doing all the cleaning and cooking and yet paradoxically having more free time for spiritual reading and prayer, which strengthens me. If I am lonely and in need of company, I simply call and/or visit friends or go online and chat with them.

[Tina]

I don't think that you people are understanding what I am saying. I know that life is unfair to everyone in someway and straight peoples attitude towards gay people only makes life harder, please do not get upset. It is just that I know a lot of people who are gay and they tell me what they have to go through, the criticism is heart retching.

[GiC]

I would hope that you know that a gay person can not be ordained.

Of course they can, just as long as they remain celibate. However, with that said, the friends who I refer to were not ordained (the ones who have been ordained) until later in life, their 40's or later. They did not remain celibate simply for the purpose of being ordained.

Furthermore, I had professors in Undergraduate School who never married, you may wish to argue that is because they were gay and there were social pressures. But I find this unlikely, as I and others who knew some of them could attest to. It's simply that they had higher priorities in their life, and relationships of the sort just got in the way. The theory that humanity's primary motivation is procreation or personal relationships may be true in some instances, at times even in general, but it is not universal; not everyone sees the benifits of such an intimate relationship (heterosexual or homosexual) to outweigh the costs and extra baggage.

[Silouan]

Some have stated that some people are born with homosexual proclivities - but this would mean that God created people that way, which borders on blasphemous.  But the patristic stance on the issue seems to be that we are not born passionate, rather we let a thought enter the heart and over time it becomes a passion.  And once this passion has set in it feels as if it were natural, even though it is not.

I offer this from St. Silouan the Athonite by Archimandrite Sophrony:   

"The further development of a sinful intrusive thought can be portrayed roughly as follows: the mind is attracted by the delectation afforded by the passion, and this is an extremely important and crucial moment because the fusion of mind with tempting ideas provides fertile soil for passion.  If the mind does not by an exercise of will tear itself away from the suggested delights but continues to dwell on them, it will find itself pleasently attracted, then involved and finally positively acquiescent.  After that, the ever increasing delight in the passion may take possesion of -make captive - mind and will....such captivity may only happen once and never recur if it had come about because of the inexperience of someone engaged in the ascetic struggle.  But if the enchantment repeats itself, passion becomes second nature, and then all man's natural forces are at its service."  (emphasis mine)

[Anastasios]

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6577.msg86247#msg86247 date=1120759477]
I am not sure how having a child makes being celebate any easier. Right now my daughter is on vacation so she is not around for a while and it does not make it any harder for me to live a celibate life. In fact, I find myself even busier when she is gone, doing all the cleaning and cooking and yet paradoxically having more free time for spiritual reading and prayer, which strengthens me. If I am lonely and in need of company, I simply call and/or visit friends or go online and chat with them.
[/quote]

I have never found friends to provide the same level of intimacy as family. Just my personal opinion though.

Anastasios

[Anastasios]

Some have stated that some people are born with homosexual proclivities - but this would mean that God created people that way, which borders on blasphemous.ÂÂ  But the patristic stance on the issue seems to be that we are not born passionate, rather we let a thought enter the heart and over time it becomes a passion.ÂÂ  And once this passion has set in it feels as if it were natural, even though it is not.

I offer this from St. Silouan the Athonite by Archimandrite Sophrony:  ÃƒÆ’‚  

"The further development of a sinful intrusive thought can be portrayed roughly as follows: the mind is attracted by the delectation afforded by the passion, and this is an extremely important and crucial moment because the fusion of mind with tempting ideas provides fertile soil for passion.ÂÂ  If the mind does not by an exercise of will tear itself away from the suggested delights but continues to dwell on them, it will find itself pleasently attracted, then involved and finally positively acquiescent.ÂÂ  After that, the ever increasing delight in the passion may take possesion of -make captive - mind and will....such captivity may only happen once and never recur if it had come about because of the inexperience of someone engaged in the ascetic struggle.ÂÂ  But if the enchantment repeats itself, passion becomes second nature, and then all man's natural forces are at its service."ÂÂ  (emphasis mine)

People with genetic disorders are born that way but that does not mean that God created them that way.  It means that God created the original man perfect but human nature is now corrupted.

Anastasios

[choirfiend]

'zactly.

[Silouan]

If homosexuality is a genetic disorder it is not a sin then, therefore the moral teaching of the church is wrong - which is not a good road to go down IMO. 

As the life of Father Seraphim attests, this passion can be overcome with much struggle.  Genetic disorders are a medical condition that are treated with medical means. 

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

I have never found friends to provide the same level of intimacy as family. Just my personal opinion though.

Anastasios

Well thjat is true, the intamacy of friends, children, siblings, parents and spouses are all a very different thing. Each has its own charisma to it that one will not find in the other and one cannot replace the other completely as they are different.

[Anastasios]

If homosexuality is a genetic disorder it is not a sin then, therefore the moral teaching of the church is wrong - which is not a good road to go down IMO.ÂÂ  

As the life of Father Seraphim attests, this passion can be overcome with much struggle.ÂÂ  Genetic disorders are a medical condition that are treated with medical means.ÂÂ  

No, it is not homosexuality that is genetically marked it is a predisposition to it, just like some are predisposed to be alcoholics.  It is still a sin to drink, and still a sin to fornicate, but it is not the fault of the person that they are predisposed.  I would suggest that if the scientific community had not abandoned the idea that homosexuality is an abheration, that perhaps someone would be able to come up with a genetic cure to the predisposition and thus lessen instances of active homosexuality. Since in our current society that will never happen, we can only deal with the aftermath.  The aftermath is treatable by celibacy.  Fr Seraphim overcame the temptations to fornicate but that does not mean he suddenly became attracted to women; who knows if he really did; only he knows.

Anastasios

[choirfiend]

If homosexuality is a genetic disorder it is not a sin then, therefore the moral teaching of the church is wrong - which is not a good road to go down IMO. 

Who said homosexuality was a genetic disorder? How is one's mind formed by genetics?  How are opinions, tastes, likes and dislikes genetic? How are they environmental? They're obviously partially constructed of both, yet are not fully accounted for by either. Someone's tongue may have taste buds that like artichokes. Someone may have grown up in a family that ate artichokes all the time. And, someone can gain an 'acquired taste' by forcing themselves to like artichokes until they actually do. But, even if your tongue does think artichokes are good, you can decide to dislike them. If you family likes artichokes, you may be the black sheep who hates them. And, you can actively avoid artichokes and never give yourself the opportunity to get to like them.

Are humans genetically constructed to be heterosexual? I'd say no. Are humans genetically constructed to be homosexual? I'd say no. I dont think someone or something 'makes' you gay either.  I think people are just gay, just as you are just heterosexual. And it's just the same set of temptations, struggles, and choices that anyone has toward whatever sex they are attracted to. Just be supportive of those around you if they come to you for counsel or help in their Christian lives. That's what we're called to do for everyone.

[Silouan]

I think we are mostly talking past eachother now and actually agreeing (if not agreeing that we agree!).  I agree that people have pre-dispositions towards various sins, my point though was to not go to the extreme and say that predispositions cancel out the culpability for sins - although no one here said that, it can be inferred if you take certain a few steps further than they were said here.  I also don't see homosexuals as cured meaning that they are suddenly attracted to the opposite sex - to me the cure is when the passion is eradicated from the heart, whether they chose to then live in celibacy or marriage is irrlevant since both states are blessed by God.  IMO the "cure" lies in the entire life of the church and immersion within it.  The best author on this subject is Metr. Hierotheos Vlachos. 

As a side note a priest I know said something very interesting... that we only hear the word hell in church two times anymore: 1) if we drop something heavy on our foot or 2) when speaking of others.... he then went on to talk about the imbalence coming from many conservative religious groups in condemnations of homosexuals.  Yes the church teaches that lifestyle is wrong, but there is a danger of becoming over zealous about that one topic.  That through prayer, repentance and the ascetic life it can be conquered like any other passion.   

[jlerms]

 :)Nicely expressed Silouan!!  I concur.   God bless us all,    Juliana

[Tikhon29605]

Tikhon, I agreed with everything you said until:

"You simply cannot change the sexual orientation of people. I think any type of aversion therapy that seeks to change gay people into "straight" people is misguided and damaging, and will eventually lead gay people to hate and despise themselves. And I abhor the idea that all a gay man needs to do is marry a woman and that will somehow "cure" him."

The problem is, people often have shades of sexual orientation; I once learned in a psychology class that there are really not many people who are 100% gay or 100% straight; most people lean one way or the other but through life or circumstances, some people do flip flop and some (bisexuals) even enjoy both.  So in the case of someone who has dated women but has some homosexual inclinations, should we tell him not to marry because he might end up deciding he actually leans gay? Or would it be better to encourage him to persue the straight side of him?

I would agree with your assessment of Focus on the Family as well, I think that reparative therapy is strange, but at the same time, if people exist who claim to have once been gay but who are now straight, shouldn't we give them the benefit of the doubt? Is each and every person who professes to be ex-gay lying?  I don't think a priest should ever suggest to a person that they try to "stop being gay" but if someone believes they can do it and is willing to try, shouldn't a priest help him in that endeavor considering that **if** it is God's will, a temptation can be taken away? (although even St Paul did not have his removed).

I guess what I am saying is that while I agree with everything else you said, I am unsure about your strict deliniation of gay vs. straight and I am also unsure if we should generalize and say that all gay people should never try to become straight.  I think most won't, most shouldn't even try perhaps, but if someone is gay but really has some reason for wanting to change over (such as sharing an intimate relationship with another human being and having children) and they approach the priest for assistance, I think the priest would be obligated to help him--although as I have said, I don't think priests should ever peddle fundamentalist protestant style "reparation therapy."

Have I misunderstood any of your positions or points of view, Tikhon? Because I actually am just interested in this subject from a pastoral point of view, am interested sincerely in the dialogue, and would simply like to learn more about the subject.

Anastasios

Anastasios: Thank you for such a polite and well responsed response!  I actually think I agree with everything you said. I was speaking in very broad terms, perhaps I should have made that clearer.  I am aware that people have shades of sexual orientation. I guess I just wasn't discussing nuances here. I was thinking of people that are either clearly gay or clearly straight, with no ambiguity.  As one who is gay myself, I can attest that the ONLY thing I have found that makes it manageable is unmitigated celibacy AND a Church that actively supports you being celibate.  I can also say that if it were not for the Orthodox Church, I probably would not be a Christian today because I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant "church" that demonized gay people and taught me to hate and despise myself and specifically told me that God hated me.  Even though I fought against this passion with all my might, prayed for God to take it away, tried to date women to force myself to be attracted to them, and yes, even watched straight pornographic videos to try to make myself lust after women (which somehow was always better than lusting after men), I couldn't do it. The gay passion remained. I really hated myself and wished that I had never been born. And I thought frequently of suicide as well. What particularly used to get to me was when I would hear the fundamentalists tell me that I was a "threat to the family" or a "threat to the institution of marriage". And to help counter the myth that all gay men are promiscuous, I was a virgin until I was 37. I am not saying this to brag or toot my own horn.  The whole reason I am bringing it up is because there are a LOT of us gay people out there, and we are in the Church, we just keep our mouths shut. And many of us gay Christians, unknown to the rest of you, really do struggle to live celibate Christian lives. We are not all the demons that the Christian Right makes us out to be.  All I know is that I did not choose to be this way, and if I could possibly change the way I am, I would. I don't like being gay. I never have liked it.  But I can honestly remember feeling this way since at least 1st grade. I'm 41 now and the feelings are basically unchanged. The only thing I can control is if I ACT on those feelings. That's where free will comes in. That's also where the struggle of the Christian life is, at least for me.  In the Orthodox Church you just cannot have gay love AND have the communion of the Church. You have to make a choice. You can't have both (and I am not saying we should have both either).  But if I have to choose between gay love and the Church, I am going to pick the Church every time. Yes, to some people that sounds harsh, doesn't it? Isn't the Church being a real "meanie" for putting gay people in that position of having to chose between love (which every human being craves) and the Church? I used to think that at one time, but not so anymore. Christ never promised that the Christian Way would be easy, convenient, satisfy our flesh or always satisfy us and make us happy. To the ears of a gay Christian, the words of Christ have a special intensity when He says "narrow and DIFFICULT is the road to eternal life, and few find it." And when we are told to die to the self, to crucify the flesh, to take up our cross and follow Him, none of that is pleasant AT THE TIME, but in the long term and eternally it does have its rewards.  As a gay Christian, I don't see much middle ground here.  We can either say that being gay is OK, just fine and dandy and be like the Episcopal Church and celebrate this by ordaining more Gene Robinsons as "bishops."  Or, we follow the path of our fathers, even though modern society may scorn us, more progressive 'churches' will look at us as dinosaurs, and political activists will call us "homophobes".  It was kind of embarassing to say all this and spill my guts like this, but I really thought it needed to be said.  I cannot begin to count the number of times that the example of my celibate archbishop has strengthened me in my committment to my own celibacy. I really feel sorry for gay Christians who are members of churches that do not value or respect celibacy. What torture that must be for them!

[choirfiend]

Thank you for your witness, Tikhon. Pray for me, a sinner.

[Anastasios]

Thank you Tikhon for bravely explaining your story to us! You are an inspiration, and I mean that as a real compliment and not a mere platitude!

Anastasios

[ozgeorge]

God bless you Tikhon!
I am sure you will be victorious, and I am sure this will be counted as martyrdom for you.
Pray for me.

[Girl]

If someone is a gay Christian can they have a partner so long as they do not do anything sexual with them?

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

If someone is a gay Christian can they have a partner so long as they do not do anything sexual with them?

No.

[Tallitot]

If someone is a gay Christian can they have a partner so long as they do not do anything sexual with them?

Yes

[Veniamin]

If someone is a gay Christian can they have a partner so long as they do not do anything sexual with them?

Are we talking like Platonically, or someone that they want to do...other...things with?  That would make a difference, right?

[sin_vladimirov]

First of all, the best and most eye-opening post on this site since I read and on any forum ever. Tikhon, brother God bless you and many years with no tears.


It is a characteristic of human beings to hate and be afraid of what they do not know.
It is a duty of Christians to try to understand and love what they get to know.

I have never found friends to provide the same level of intimacy as family. Just my personal opinion though.

Anastasios, have you ever been in the Army? In the war?
Also, I dare say that monks will tell a different story?

I am not arguing just trying to give a different perception.

I know blood is not water, but after all a man leave his blood for an unrelated woman and they become as one.

[Girl]

Are we talking like Platonically, or someone that they want to do...other...things with?ÂÂ  That would make a difference, right?

Not just friends, but two people who are in love but that have a mutual agreement that they are not going to do sexual things they don't live together or anything but they just have a very none physical relationship and support each other in the cChristianfaith.

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

We are to avoid the occasion of sin and a homosexual man living with a homosexual man he was in love with and in a relationship with would definitely be living in a situation where it would be easier to fall.

It is not ONLY the sexual act itself that is sinful, but the whole concept of a homosexual relationship.

Likewise it would be wrong for a straight man to live with a straight woman that he was in love with and had a relationship with if they were not married to one another, even if they were trying not to be physically intimate.

[Girl]

I said they would NOT be living together.

 I don't think it would necessarily be harder to stay celibate, Rather than having no one to support you, you have someone that can encourage you in desperate times, if you had no one there it would be easier to let your self go and have a one night fling.

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

Regardless, a homosexual relationship is wrong, whether it is physical or not.

[Girl]

I am not trying to make conflict I just really want to understand............... Why not? The bible says that a Man shall not lay with another man, as long as they don't sleep together, than why not?

[Girl]

A church with a woman priest.................... go look at "the charismatics are among us" we have discused all of this allready and believe me it was not pretty.

Also, I really feel the need to understand, sorry I annoy you so.

[sin_vladimirov]

A church with a woman priest.................... go look at "the charismatics are among us" we have discused all of this allready and believe me it was not pretty.

That is so funny. 

Ok... Now this is it... I am not drinking tea whilst surfing the net ever again....
This is the last time I spat the mouthfull of tea all over the keyboard... LOL

[Girl]

LOL!!!

Wow, that was great.........good times, good times.

[Cephas]

"Memory, all alone in the moonlight...."

[Lystra]

LOL, I thought spitting on the computer from a surprise only happenned in the movies!!! j/k

"Memory, all alone in the moonlight...."

That song reminds me of School of Rock when that snotty school girl tries to sing!!! LOL

[eleni]

Well said Tikhon and God bless you ....

IX
helen

All of us are given a  CROSS to carry and it is up to us to carry the CROSS and whatever suffering comes with it.

[Tikhon29605]

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6577.msg86298#msg86298 date=1120785089]
Regardless, a homosexual relationship is wrong, whether it is physical or not.
[/quote]

Hmmm ..... since I am a homosexual, ALL the relationships I have are homosexual relationships. Before people go beserk, let me explain. I am celibate, but I am a homosexual. It is my orientation. I am a homosexual in relationship with my father. I am a gay person who is in a relationship with my sister. I also have a relationship with my priest and father confessor. None of these, of course, are relationships that are sexual, but they still are RELATIONSHIPS. Making such a blanket statement as "all homosexual relationships are wrong, whether physical or not" makes me wonder why I am here on this planet. Am I a mistake? Am I an accident? Is the luxury of a relationship and connecting with another human being a right that is reserved exclusively for straight people? Perhaps I should just lock myself in my room alone and live as a recluse (like Howard Hughes) until I die? Would that be good enough? Would that suffice? Believe it or not, two gay people can have a relationship (deep friendship) with each other and not even want to get in each other's pants.  Perhaps this does not fit in with all the propaganda from the Christian Right that demonizes gay people such as myself simply because we exist (and whom some people, I fear would like to exterminate like cockroaches.)  I have a gay friend in Texas who is a devout Roman Catholic. He's celibate too. We often chat online about our struggles together. He has told me many times about how he approaches the Sacrament of Confession with tears. And I sense that he is a far better Christian that I am.  I would call that a relationship. I connect with him. We share the same struggles. And I highly doubt that it is a sin for me to connect with another human being like myself.  How about this example? I was talking online to a gay friend in my city who is sexually active, and he confided in me privately that he wished he was celibate. And he praised me for being celibate. He didn't encourage me to be promiscuous and go out and "find myself" at all. Imagine that!  I just have to say there is just as much variety among gay people as there is among heterosexual people. We really are no different. Its just our orientation that makes us slightly different. Now I would say that common sense would dictate that a gay person committed to celibacy not live under the same roof with another gay person that he is attracted to. That is simply asking for trouble. Nor do I think it is a good idea for a celibate gay person to go out to gay bars and clubs. That is asking for trouble too. And I am saddened by all these so-called "gay pride" parades all over the nation that portray all gay people as fornicating sodomites and drag queens. I think they are damaging to the gay community and wish they would stop.  But please, please, please don't tell me I can't have any gay friends. I don't believe the torture of isolation makes me any holier.

[Landon77]

"I once learned in a psychology class that there are really not many people who are 100% gay or 100% straight."

 I learned the same thing.  It seems that when you isolate people into same sex groups for very long periods of time, people tend to forget that they are "totally straight."  I think claiming to be straight or gay is a cultural thing, not a Christian one.

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