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Author Topic: Was Seraphim Rose Gay?  (Read 21923 times) Average Rating: 0
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Mo the Ethio
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« on: July 03, 2005, 06:32:37 PM »

  PhosZoe claimed on another thread the Father Seraphim Rose was gay. Can you ( PhosZoe) or anyone substantiate this somewhat slanderous claim? If so , was it prior to his conversion? Further more, if this indeed true, is it an issue as far as him being cannonized?

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« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2005, 08:10:55 PM »

 Huh  OK, why is that even important.  I think if people have actually had the time to sit and ponder that then they need to pick up a hobby or something, because they have too much time on their hands.
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« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2005, 08:19:57 PM »

From what I've read, yes. Being gay is a matter of who one is attracted to, not what one does with one's lower bits. Obviously, after converting to Orthodoxy and becoming a monk, Fr. Seraphim was celibate, but there exist letters from his youth where he explicitly says he is a homosexual.

It's not really an issue for him being canonized. Plenty of saints did all sorts of crazy things before they found God. The important thing is that Fr. Seraphim repented of it and gave it up, which is what we should do for any sin; there's nothing special about homosexuality in that regard.
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« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2005, 10:22:38 PM »

I think it is also pertinent to add that sodomy is considered just as bad when committed by heterosexuals. A heterosexual man who up until converting to Orthodoxy engaged in sodomy is in just as sinful a state as a homosexual who comes to Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2005, 10:27:51 PM »

Who cares what anyone else is? I just need to look into the mirror to see the worse human ever to walk the earth.
Felling is not a sin, it is the action of giving in to it that counts.
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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2005, 11:00:51 PM »

It should be noted that this occured before his illumination, and thus was entirely washed away...
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« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2005, 11:08:41 PM »

Huh OK, why is that even important. I think if people have actually had the time to sit and ponder that then they need to pick up a hobby or something, because they have too much time on their hands.
...I don`t have much extra time on my hands (single dad ..working to support my kids)..just an honest inquiry. Forgive me for the offence
From what I've read, yes. Being gay is a matter of who one is attracted to, not what one does with one's lower bits. Obviously, after converting to Orthodoxy and becoming a monk, Fr. Seraphim was celibate, but there exist letters from his youth where he explicitly says he is a homosexual.

It's not really an issue for him being canonized. Plenty of saints did all sorts of crazy things before they found God. The important thing is that Fr. Seraphim repented of it and gave it up, which is what we should do for any sin; there's nothing special about homosexuality in that regard.
 So, really it inaccurate to say SERAPHIM Rose was gay . When he came into the church and was baptised as SERAPHIM , his previous sins were washed away. My point is this, to say Father Seraphim was gay is to imply that he continued that sinful behavour after his conversion.
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« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2005, 11:11:29 PM »

Quote
My point is this, to say Father Seraphim was gay is to imply that he continued that sinful behavour after his conversion.

No. After Fr. Seraphim was baptized, he was still gay, only now he was celibate. If a person is exclusively or nearly-exclusively attracted to members of the same sex, they are gay, even if they never act on it.
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« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2005, 11:25:26 PM »

So Beayf ,you are prepared to tell me and everyone on this forum that FR. Seraphim Rose was gay after his conversion?
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« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2005, 11:37:04 PM »

I dont think people stop being heterosexual after choosing monasticism. As many, I'm sure, could tell you, you don't stop struggling with passions like switching off a lightbulb after becoming monastics. So yes, I'd say Fr. Seraphim was homosexual.
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« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2005, 11:44:44 PM »

What is the big deal with Father Seraphim Rose's sexual orientation being gay? Once he became a monk he was completely and utterly celibate. There isn't the slightest hint that he ever acted on it after he took his monastic vows. In fact, I would imagine that he stopped acting on these impulses when he was a catechumen, because he took the teachings of the Orthodox Church quite seriously well before he ever became a monk. Does this mean Father Seraphim was never tempted by the slightest gay thought? I highly doubt it. The point is that he fought and struggled against it and he prevailed.
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« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2005, 11:53:07 PM »

Indeed. As all monastics do.
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« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2005, 12:07:17 AM »

Choirfiend is right.

Just because one takes on angelic life, his temptation does not disappear.
He is still a human with human temptations.

If one is a heterosexual or a gay he as a monk lives life celibate. But his temptation are still there.
Temptation is not a sin, it is falling to it what sin is.
Sexuality does not matter for a monk, as long as he does not indulge in it by action, word or deed.
So, whether one is straight or gay, for a monk that does not matter. He is of the same guilt if he falls, whether with a woman or a man.

It is in our (non-monastic) lives where sexuality matters.

We have our own temptation, monks and nuns their own.

Our own temptation (as far as sexuality is concerned) is whether we do what we are supposed to do and don't do what we are not supposed to do.
Each glory to itself, each fall to itself.
Monastic fails his way, we fail our way.
Different cross, cross never-the-less.

Does one stop being  what he/she is as far as sexuality is concerned when one takes on monastic calling? No, but it does not matter as long as you are celibate. When you fall, you fall the same.



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« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2005, 12:16:54 AM »

â€Â  Irini nem ehmot â€Â

Hmm, this is interesting.  So based on what's been posted so far, it is possible for a homosexual to "inherit the Kingdom of God"  so long as they do not act on their impulses?  So when St. Paul writes in 1Corinthians 6:9 that "...Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals... will inherit the Kingdom of God" he is refering to those who act on their urges?  This is just for my own clarification.  Thanks.

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« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2005, 12:22:06 AM »

Quote
Hmm, this is interesting.  So based on what's been posted so far, it is possible for a homosexual to "inherit the Kingdom of God"  so long as they do not act on their impulses? 

Why wouldn't it be? St. Paul is referring to people who have same-sex relations, not people who are attracted to the same sex, which is, after all, just as involuntary as when you are attracted to a beautiful woman you see (assuming you are male, which by your username you probably are).
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« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2005, 12:39:25 AM »

Perfect.  Thanks for the clarification. 
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« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2005, 10:11:04 AM »

I was under the impression that if one daydreams about, or imagines oneself doing a sexual act t hen this is the same as sinning....even though one did not physically act on it.  Therefore it is necessary to also avoid thinking about it.

Is this true?    respectfully,   Juliana
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« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2005, 10:17:22 AM »

True.

Every thought, word and deed shall be judged.

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« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2005, 10:22:55 AM »

 :)Thank you Sin_V.  It is the controlling of one's thoughts that can be the most challenging.  God help us all.
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« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2005, 02:44:52 PM »

Here is a pertinent quote from St. Isaiah the Solitary:

"If some shameful thought is sown into your heart as you are sitting in your cell, watch out. Resist the evil, so that it does not gain control over you. Make every effort to call God to mind, for He is looking at you, and whatever you are thinking in your heart is plainly visible to him. Say to your soul: 'If you are afraid of sinners like yourself seeing your sins, how much more should you be afraid of God who notes everything?' As a result of this warning the fear of God will be revealed in your soul, and if you cleave to Him you will not be shaken by the passions; for it is written: 'They that trust in the Lord shall be as Mount Zion; he that dwells in Jerusalem shall never be shaken' (Ps. 125:1. LXX). Whatever you are doing, remember that God sees your all your thoughts, and then you will never sin. To Him be glory through all the ages. Amen."

From the Philokalia, Volume 1. page 28.
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« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2005, 09:23:24 PM »

Why should it matter that Fr. Seraphim Rose had a gay lover before becoming a monastic? That certainly isn't any worse than Augustine's pre-conversion life. All have fallen short of the glory of God.
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« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2005, 11:38:03 PM »

Why should it matter that Fr. Seraphim Rose had a gay lover before becoming a monastic? That certainly isn't any worse than Augustine's pre-conversion life. All have fallen short of the glory of God.
I think it might serve as encouragement for those struggling with sin. That it IS possible to turn away from your old habbits, to truly crucify the desires of the flesh and that old man, and to actually put on Christ, is a beacon of hope for all us who fall day after day. Yes, all have fallen short of the glory of God; but God picks us up and transforms us! Glory be to Him!

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« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2005, 11:06:29 AM »

No. After Fr. Seraphim was baptized, he was still gay, only now he was celibate. If a person is exclusively or nearly-exclusively attracted to members of the same sex, they are gay, even if they never act on it.

Yes, exactly what I was going to say. I was not implying that he was acting on his "urges" but merely stating that is what he was before he was baptized. All I know about Fr. Seraphim Rose is what was written about him.


You should have PM'd me if you wanted clarification.

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« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2005, 11:24:57 AM »

We are not judged for our thoughts if we repentant of them.  Also we  are not guilty if we ignore them.  Many thoughts are simply demonic, they're like radio waves, always in the air.  We sin when we dwell on them.  It is Christ who transforms our lives, not we ourselves.
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« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2005, 01:22:21 PM »

PhosZoe:
  Pardon the offence and my ignorance. But this thread has brought up some interesting points.
  And though I have a LONG way to go, I`m trying to have as many posts as Matthew 777 Tongue
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« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2005, 11:30:07 PM »

No. After Fr. Seraphim was baptized, he was still gay, only now he was celibate. If a person is exclusively or nearly-exclusively attracted to members of the same sex, they are gay, even if they never act on it.
Beayf the problem I have with this is that it implies that being homosexual is natural. That one cannot return to being heterosexual as all people are born that way. Of course the success psychologists use to have helping men who reported being homosexual turn back to heterosexuality is never mentioned anymore and most people think it never happened. In my own experience I know of no one who can be said to have been born gay or that there is any real proof that there is some "gay gene". The two gay men in my family, one who died of AIDS several years ago, and the one who is still alive, went through traumatic events in their life. The first I mentioned was dumped by his steady girlfriend in high school after they had been going together for several years and had planned on getting married.

Also the problem I have with some of the views expressed here is the idea that it is wrong for one to be attracted to the opposite sex. Since when is it a passion for a man to want to be married to a woman and have a family? I admit lust is often in a man's heart even when he desires marriage but I cannot say that it is wrong for a man to be attracted to a woman. However it is wrong for one to be sexually attracted to the same sex. For one there can be no such thing as a marriage or family in this attraction, second it is contrary to human nature itself as Adam was given Eve, and third this attraction springs entirely from a sick lust to not only indulge the sexual appetite but to deny the natural order itself.

Also no one has considered that Eugene Rose might have been bi-sexual! Back in those days the term did not exist. If one was attracted to the same sex they were gay. It did not matter if they were also attracted to the opposite sex. Also it is unclear how close his relationship with Alison Engler was.

Just to clear a few other things up: Fr.Seraphim of Platina was not baptized Seraphim he was chrismated into ROCOR as Eugene with his patron being St.Eugene of Alexandria. At the time ROCOR still chrismated people coming from Protestantism and Roman Catholicism. He became Seraphim when he was tonsured a monk.

Often I wish the book revealing the details Fr.Seraphim's early hedonistic path had never come out. I mean if anyone ever wrote a book about me and my becoming Orthodox, as if that would ever happen, I would not appreciate them telling everyone the most awful details of what I did before seeing the light, particularly considering that I have forgotten most of them and see no reason to remember them or for anyone else to know of them. I remember hearing the Prologue read in Church one Sunday. I can't remember what day but the Homily stated that is not good to remember our sins but rather to remember we are sinners.
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« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2005, 11:51:10 PM »

It is a very tricky question.

I know that there is NO "gay gene"; but at the same time, I think that one does not choose one's sexuality (or, one can not choose one's sexuality).
You are either straight or gay or bi. And there is nothing you can do about it (I am talking about feeling/temptation, NOT ACTION).

Only one type of sexuality (straight-heterosexual) IS natural, that is for sure.

But,
at the same time, who says that we do anything natural these days?

We are so far into the fall (as humans) that everything un-natural becomes natural.
Death is not natural but who will argue othervise.

It is THE reality (state of affairs) of today and thus even not natural reality becomes natural because it is reality. We can not choose otherwise.

I am not saying that homosexual activities are good, God forbid. As I am not saying that bi-sexual activities are good, God forbid.

But at the same time they are not any worse than heterosexual sins (of all kinds).

All anti-God like sexual activities from having sex before marriage and masturbation to cheating on your wife/husband with another man/woman in any case and any combination is a sin.
I think that dealing with our own sin is what is more beneficial than dealing with sins of other people.



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« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2005, 01:48:49 AM »

I agree that being gay is not a choice, but acting on it is a choice. One of my priests son has Hydrocephalus (sp) it is not his fault that he has it, he did not ask for it, he does not always know when he is doing something wrong but it is his parents job to keep him from doing it. If someone is truly gay it is not their fault, they did not ask to be gay but it is the churches responsibility to encourage them to be strong and not give in to the sin and not to judge them. Sorry if you do not understand the point I am trying to make it is hard for me to explain.................Like if someone had schizophrenia and wanted to kill someone it is not their fault (right?) but it is our responsibility to keep them from doing so.

In no way am I saying that Gay people are or should be treated like crazy or mentally ill people, I sincerely apologize if in this post I have offended anyone!  Wink
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« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2005, 10:12:20 AM »

Beayf the problem I have with this is that it implies that being homosexual is natural. That one cannot return to being heterosexual as all people are born that way. Of course the success psychologists use to have helping men who reported being homosexual turn back to heterosexuality is never mentioned anymore and most people think it never happened. In my own experience I know of no one who can be said to have been born gay or that there is any real proof that there is some "gay gene". The two gay men in my family, one who died of AIDS several years ago, and the one who is still alive, went through traumatic events in their life. The first I mentioned was dumped by his steady girlfriend in high school after they had been going together for several years and had planned on getting married.
.



If being gay is totally a choice and fundamentally caused by some "traumatic" event in ones enviroment. Can you explain to me why I am straight and happily married and my sister is a lesbian?  We came from the same alcholhalic abusive father and the same emotionally immature and distant mother? 
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« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2005, 10:21:24 AM »

I believe in all honesty that one is not born gay (and I dont mean happy)
Depending on the enviroment and friendship one keeps is a big influence in ones life.

When one does not recognise this or any other sin which we know is an abomination to the Lord ,then one cannot be forgiven of that sin....no matter what the sin may be,big or small.

I remember an actress that was influenced by the friends she kept.....Ann Heche she actually did say that alotof this  is because of who your friends and group of people you are with and in order to change one must want to make that change.
She is now married and has two children.(only using this as a reference because of the media hype)

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« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2005, 10:23:03 AM »

Orthodox don't believe that we are born now as we are intended to be someday. I don't believe gay people are somehow twisted into being gay from some action, especially something as ridiculous as being dumped by a first love in high school.  I dont think being gay is something you can "fix." I don't think one can morph into being heterosexual any more than you could morph into having an attraction for men. Gay people who have to deal with their desires are just the same as any person dealing with any desire or sin. Being "born"gay doesn't somehow imply that God intends for people to live gay lifestyles any more than being born mortal and separated from God implies that God intended for us to be mortal and separated from Him. The foundation of our faith is that not only does God not wish for us to be separated from Him, but that He came and lived as a mortal man and died so that we would no longer have to be separate from Him. The same unity with God is what God intends for all people, gay or not. If you were close to (AKA knew well)  any gay people I think your opinion would change.
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« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2005, 10:32:51 AM »

I think people are born 'gay'- that there is a genetic component. But this doesn't mean that it's God's will that they act on their attraction.
People are also born with Diabetes due to a genetic component, and have to manage this every day with blood sugar monitoring, diet, and insulin injections.
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« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2005, 10:47:06 AM »



If being gay is totally a choice and fundamentally caused by some "traumatic" event in ones enviroment. Can you explain to me why I am straight and happily married and my sister is a lesbian? We came from the same alcholhalic abusive father and the same emotionally immature and distant mother?

While I think that one MIGHT have a genetic disposition towards homosexuality, in the case you cite, the same stimulus could provoke two different outcomes nevertheless. I think we have to be clear that in any discussion of the causes of homosexuality, we are dealing with variables such as environment, genetic dispositions, etc, that all can trigger homosexuality, but which may not.  For instance, if you read some of the twins studies, there are cases of identical twins that have come out one gay and one straight.  So it's got to be more than just genes but at the same time, it probably isn't *just* environment.

In either case, we have to be clear that living out homosexuality no matter what its cause is sinful, just like a straight person who is lecherous living out his temptation, or an alchoholic drinking, etc.

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« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2005, 10:54:16 AM »

For a serious and sober treatment of the issue of homosexuality, I would recommend some of the works of the retired Dean of Saint Vladimir's Seminary, Protopresbyter Father Thomas Hopko.  I don't know if Father Hopko has put anything in writing about this issue, but I once watched a video he made where he discussed the issue of homosexuality and he made it very very clear that he does not think anyone "chooses" to be gay.  And since he was addressing other priests in this video, Father Hopko went on to counsel these priests not to scold gay people in confession for having a homosexual orientation. Lest Father Hopko and I be misinterpreted, he was NOT telling them it was OK to engage in homosexual acts. Absolutely not. He certainly maintained the traditional teaching of the Orthodox Church in that regard. He stressed that sexual activity, as the Church says, should be confined ONLY to marriage. And that the Church expects her unmarried members to be chaste and celibate. Period. Whether they are gay or straight. However, what I found so refreshing about Father Hopko's approach to this issue was his deep sense of compassion.  He had no finger-pointing at all. He spoke eloquently about how we do NOT chose our passions, but nevertheless we must fight against them. He also mentioned that EVERY CHRISTIAN has particular passions to fight against, and the the Church should WELCOME gay people, embrace them, and encourage them to fight against this passion, and invite them to repentance when they fall.  I just loved Father Hopko's whole approach to this matter. It seemed to fit in very well with Orthodox theology where sin is viewed as a sickness that needs to be HEALED, not some "rule" that has been violated and needs to be punished.  I don't think there are any quick fixes or short answers to the problem of homosexuality. What causes people to have a homosexual orientation? I don't know. To me it is a mystery and I am content to leave it at that.  But regardless of what causes it, all the Church can do is treat it and offer the healing medicine of the Sacraments. I think because the Orthodox Church values and respects celibacy so much we have a great voice that needs to be heard on this issue.  You simply cannot change the sexual orientation of people. I think any type of aversion therapy that seeks to change gay people into "straight" people is misguided and damaging, and will eventually lead gay people to hate and despise themselves. And I abhor the idea that all a gay man needs to do is marry a woman and that will somehow "cure" him. Tchaikovsky tried that approach, and he and his wife both nearly went insane. As unpopular as it may be with the world and Focus on the Family, I think unmitigated celibacy is the ONLY answer to a homosexual orientation. I see no other way.
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« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2005, 11:06:24 AM »

I'm going to have to disagree with you Oz George because it is a fact that when Adam and Eve sinned......The whole world changed, from nature to the way man behaves.....
The Marriage was allowed to happen between man and woman because of the way the world changed after the fall of Adam and Eve.
Our Lord Jesus Christ BLESSES this marriage between husband and wife ONLY because our down fall........then when the JUDGEMENT comes at the end of the world, our nature will be as it was in the beginning before the fall.

There is not any GENE that has been proven one is born gay.

Like any other sin, whatever it may be.......if one does not recognise their sin to be a sin then one cannot be helped.....and WE ARE ALL GUILTY and fall short of the Glory of God......

Fr Seraphim Rose whatever he did in his past is no ones buisness but his own.....God is the Judge of him....and surely Fr Seraphim Rose coming to the Orthodox Church and accepting it as the Truth came to realise his mistake .........when he was dying he had said he wasn't worthy of God.
What we should be doing is looking at our own mistakes and jduging ourselves and praying for others.

I remember reading a story about a man who WAS gay and did not see it as a SIN and therefore lived a life in SIN......when he realised this to be an offense against God and came to the truth of Orthodoxy(he had the aids virus)........ he visited the Orthodox church a number of times and  would sit  in the back ....people always judge according what they hear and see .......God on the other hand knows us better then we know ourselves.

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« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2005, 11:13:32 AM »

Tikhon, I agreed with everything you said until:

"You simply cannot change the sexual orientation of people. I think any type of aversion therapy that seeks to change gay people into "straight" people is misguided and damaging, and will eventually lead gay people to hate and despise themselves. And I abhor the idea that all a gay man needs to do is marry a woman and that will somehow "cure" him."

The problem is, people often have shades of sexual orientation; I once learned in a psychology class that there are really not many people who are 100% gay or 100% straight; most people lean one way or the other but through life or circumstances, some people do flip flop and some (bisexuals) even enjoy both.  So in the case of someone who has dated women but has some homosexual inclinations, should we tell him not to marry because he might end up deciding he actually leans gay? Or would it be better to encourage him to persue the straight side of him?

I would agree with your assessment of Focus on the Family as well, I think that reparative therapy is strange, but at the same time, if people exist who claim to have once been gay but who are now straight, shouldn't we give them the benefit of the doubt? Is each and every person who professes to be ex-gay lying?  I don't think a priest should ever suggest to a person that they try to "stop being gay" but if someone believes they can do it and is willing to try, shouldn't a priest help him in that endeavor considering that **if** it is God's will, a temptation can be taken away? (although even St Paul did not have his removed).

I guess what I am saying is that while I agree with everything else you said, I am unsure about your strict deliniation of gay vs. straight and I am also unsure if we should generalize and say that all gay people should never try to become straight.  I think most won't, most shouldn't even try perhaps, but if someone is gay but really has some reason for wanting to change over (such as sharing an intimate relationship with another human being and having children) and they approach the priest for assistance, I think the priest would be obligated to help him--although as I have said, I don't think priests should ever peddle fundamentalist protestant style "reparation therapy."

Have I misunderstood any of your positions or points of view, Tikhon? Because I actually am just interested in this subject from a pastoral point of view, am interested sincerely in the dialogue, and would simply like to learn more about the subject.

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« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2005, 11:15:21 AM »



There is not any GENE that has been proven one is born gay.



There also isn't any one environmental cause that has been proven to make people gay either.
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« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2005, 11:18:14 AM »

There is not any GENE that has been proven one is born gay.

But there is a gene which causes juvenile diabetes. And there is a genetic predisposition to mental illnesses (such as addiction, schizophrenia).
Are you saying that bad things cannot be genetically inherited?
Is it God's will that people become addicted, develop schizophrenia and die of unmanaged juvenile diabetes?
Just because people are born with a tendency towards same-sex attraction, doen't mean they are destined to practice sodomy or lesbianism.
Nor does having a genetic predisposition justify becoming an alcoholoc- we still have to take responsibility, as we must with diabetes.
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« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2005, 11:33:16 AM »


 I don't think priests should ever peddle fundamentalist protestant style "reparation therapy."
Anastasios

No they should not nor should any priest peddle anything by Dobson or other such evangelical "guru". Light and Life now carries books by the Dobson monster. I have complained bitterly.

"reparation therapy" I have known more than a few people who have gone through such therapy. It causes more harm that good.  I have read some statisics that the failure rate for such therapy is as high as 98% of all participants.

This sort of therapy is essentially teaching men how to "act manly"- For example they would have speech lessons to lose the lisp or learn how to play football.  and teach women how to walk in high heels and apply make up. I'm sorry this has nothing to do with ones sexuality. If wearning high heels and lipstick was a requirment to be straight then there are lots more lesbians out there.   

Another disturbing compononent to this therapy is the use of pornography, a college friend of mine who participated in such therapy was forced to sit in a room for 2 hours at a stretch  watching nothing but straight pornography. He was accompanied by a "counselor" who sat with him to make sure he watched.
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« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2005, 11:43:53 AM »

There's only one book listed at L&L under Dobson, and it's a 3.99 booklet on raising teenagers....It doesn't look that bad?
http://www.light-n-life.com/shopping/order_product.asp?ProductNum=RAIS110

Though the Focus on the Family people are frightening....ah, pop Christianity, how I avoid thee, let me count the ways...
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« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2005, 12:48:54 PM »

I had a friend that said she was bi but she was very conflicted because she was allways raised up and taught that being gay was wrong. She told me that one night she decided to pray about it and God told her that this did not define her and that she should fight it. She no longer considers her self "bi" but "ex-bi" as some one had mentioned earlier. If ones environment was what caused them to be gay than wouldn't she have never considered that she was bi because of her environment? She felt pressure from her family to be straight, as many people do, they end up getting married and having children and having to deal with knowing that they truly do not want to be in that relationship but they stay because they have created a family and because of this environment, they do not reveal that they are gay. Instead they end up cheating on their spouses or are unhappy for the rest of their lives. Are gay people cursed to only have two choices? Sin or lie to your self and be unhappy.
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« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2005, 12:51:16 PM »

I do not think that they have those two choices only, they can chose to admit that they are gay and live celibate life.

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« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2005, 12:58:27 PM »

If you were not a bishop or monk ext......... would you want to live a celibate life? I don't think anyone would.
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« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2005, 12:59:55 PM »

Well then.... sin or live a lie.
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« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2005, 01:04:29 PM »

God gave us free will.

Depending on our enviroment we are INFLUENCED on  how we behave.

God allows US to be tested in certain situations ........it is up to US to decide with PATH WE ARE TO FOLLOW.

There have been new reports(not that I believe what the media and the news source tell me)that Schizophrenia can come from drug use.
A parent was talking about this on a current affars program.

We are inclined to inherit certain characteristics and genes from our parents BUT as we grow as adults we UNDERSTAND what we must do and how to behave if we are to follow in God's path.......We may not like some LAWs of man here on earth, but we MUST obey them or we face the consequences....and that's how it is!

I'm not at all saying I'm perfect, in fact I have many faults that people do not know but only God alone can see.....He does not interfere.....I have free will as God gave me this.....I fall and each time I fall I must get up again,but in God's mercy I trust that I must repent of the fall each and everytime I fall........There is no way out but to repent and pray and fast...for all these three go together.

I believe we have  certain passions that we ourselves know are sometimes difficult to us but easier to others......that does not mean that  we accept them , it means that we must do something about overcoming them......
We avoid the situation that causes the passions to arise.
We simply dont accept them as being part of what God gave us......this simply is wrong!

God made Adam and Eve perfect.......He gave them a LAW ''do not eat '' that is the first Commandment .....fasting!
They were also given free will...they chose to disobey the one law of God........and therefore their nature changed along with all the earth and animals......
Although all changed because of what happened, it does not mean that we cannot change our ways......
Man always seeks the easy way out......it's not easy at all.....
We must always be ready incase DEATH comes to us.......so SIN is everything that is against God.....Jesus Christ came to fullfill the whole LAW ........And through Him all is made perfect..
But that does not mean we must sit and think that all is taken care of.

No one should force anyone to do anything...in God's time all are given a choice.........
all SIN is forgiven......if one repents
But Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit will not.

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« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2005, 01:07:45 PM »

If you were not a bishop or monk ext......... would you want to live a celibate life? I don't think anyone would.

I don't want to swallow my temper and forgive people for what they've done to me....but I try to anyway.

I don't want to be concerned about people other than me...but I try to anyway.

I don't want to restrain my sharp tongue when irritated...but I try to anyway.

It's not about what we want to do...it's about what we're supposed to do, regardless of temptations.
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« Reply #46 on: July 07, 2005, 01:16:32 PM »

If you were not a bishop or monk ext......... would you want to live a celibate life? I don't think anyone would.

I am completely straight, I am not a monk and have been happily celibate for 10 years. I will be celebate my entire life as I am a deacon and cannot get married. Celibacy is not as horribly as many people try to paint it. You just have to be able to control your passions.
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« Reply #47 on: July 07, 2005, 01:22:35 PM »

Quote
I don't want to swallow my temper and forgive people for what they've done to me....but I try to anyway.

I don't want to be concerned about people other than me...but I try to anyway.

I don't want to restrain my sharp tongue when irritated...but I try to anyway

It's not about what we want to do...it's about what we're supposed to do, regardless of temptations.

But swallowing your temper is NOT the same as being celibate. I am not encourageing being gay it is just sad that they only have these choices. Yes, life is unfair, many of these people with mental illnesses will never experience being married and true love, just like it is unfair that we live in good houses and allways have food while starving children in third world country's die every day. It is just that people are so judgemental towards gay people who choose to have a same sex partner, I am just trying to stress the fact that it is not so easy as some would think.
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« Reply #48 on: July 07, 2005, 01:27:37 PM »

Resisting a temptation to do what I want to do in favor of what I should do?  They don't sound too different to me when looked at in that frame of reference.
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« Reply #49 on: July 07, 2005, 01:35:44 PM »

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6577.msg86236#msg86236 date=1120756592]
I am completely straight, I am not a monk and have been happily celibate for 10 years. I will be celebate my entire life as I am a deacon and cannot get married. Celibacy is not as horribly as many people try to paint it. You just have to be able to control your passions.
[/quote]

You also have a daughter to share your life with. That makes it easier.

Anastasios
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« Reply #50 on: July 07, 2005, 01:36:10 PM »

To be Christian one needs Suffering......some more or less then others.
To carry a CROSS is to bear whatever befalls you.
If it is good......then thank the Lord Jesus Christ.
If it is not good......then thank the Lord Jesus Christ.

We know this because the Lives of Saints was not at all fun and games and all good happy moments.....in fact, it was alot of suffering .

QUOTE/// from Tina
She felt pressure from her family to be straight, as many people do,
 they end up getting married and having children and having to deal with knowing that they truly do not want to be in that relationship but they stay because they have created a family and because of this environment, they do not reveal that they are gay. Instead they end up cheating on their spouses or are unhappy for the rest of their lives. Are gay people cursed to only have two choices? Sin or lie to your self and be unhappy.

Tina one cheats because they want to or because the soul is weak with ''passions'' and it is easier to do the will of the devil then it is the will of God.
And what is unhappy?
We all must suffer.......and if unhappy is one of them, then this is SUFFERING for our Lord Jesus Christ who told us this would happen..
Sin or lie to yourself and be unhappy?
Well, Jesus Christ said do not sin!
We are not lieing to ourselves Tina, but giving in to SIN .....we are doing what the Serpant in the garden of Eden did to Eve...eat and you shall not die.....Eve ate because she trusted the serpant(devil)that she will not die ....but as a reult DEATH came into the world....
DEATH as in SPIRITUAL DEATH......away from God ..
God asks AdAM  and Eve for REPENTANCE and both just find EXCUSES to who's fault it was that disobeyed the ONE LAW of God.

We either Pick up our CROSS and follow in Christ's footsteps or we choose the wide and easy path....
What can I say.....
People are unhappy with many different things......that is life!
We also know this because we are told life as a Christian will not be easy......

In latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons" (1 Tim. 4:1).
MEDIA MEDIA MEDIA
and because we choose to wonder the wide and easy road......God allows certain sufferings/temptations  to come our way...for our own benefit.....but on our FREE WILL...

"would not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts" (Rev. 9:2-21, 16:13, 18:23).

We are reminded that Temptations come in all sorts of passions......It is for us to not be tempted but seek help with prayer and fasting ...
I dont see the situation being helped by telling someone that it isnt their fault they are gay.....in fact, quite the opposite can occur....
Proud that one is gay .....is another passion which arrises.
To help someone with whatever PASSION they are experiencing is a different matter......whatever that PASSION may be...

To actually tell someone that the SIN is not their fault but it's the way life is ,is plain stupid because it helps no one and adds to the problem .....
Lets say I murder someone out of anger or because I was threatened.......am I at FAULT?
YES I AM.....
Anger is a sin...
Why should I chose to seek revenge for what I felt?
Doesn't Christ teach otherwise?

Anyway.......

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« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2005, 01:38:16 PM »

If you were not a bishop or monk ext......... would you want to live a celibate life? I don't think anyone would.

I know people who, though having no desire to be a monastic or a bishop, have lived a celibate life and eventually became priests later in life, thus they will be celibate until their death. Celibacy is not necessarily a bad thing, nor is it even necessarily an ascetic discipline. Believe it or not, some people actually prefer celibacy to being married, others are indifferent either way.
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« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2005, 01:38:55 PM »

OFF THE TOPIC:

Welcome to OCnet Tina.

Many years and God bless.
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« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2005, 01:46:33 PM »

Quote
OFF THE TOPIC:

Welcome to OCnet Tina.

Many years and God bless

Thank you.

Quote
I know people who, though having no desire to be a monastic or a bishop, have lived a celibate life and eventually became priests later in life, thus they will be celibate until their death.


I would hope that you know that a gay person can not be ordained.
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« Reply #54 on: July 07, 2005, 01:56:49 PM »

But swallowing your temper is NOT the same as being celibate. I am not encourageing being gay it is just sad that they only have these choices. Yes, life is unfair, many of these people with mental illnesses will never experience being married and true love, just like it is unfair that we live in good houses and allways have food while starving children in third world country's die every day. It is just that people are so judgemental towards gay people who choose to have a same sex partner, I am just trying to stress the fact that it is not so easy as some would think.

yes, it is sad that gay people have limited choices (sin or remain celibate). no one said it was easy to be gay and to have to make those decisions. life is unfair, but everyone has something in their lives that is unfair. everyone has struggles that they have to deal with, they take on different forms for different people. its hard to overcome temptation, but that doesnt mean that we should just throw in the towel and give in to temptations.

im going to quote eleni...
"People are unhappy with many different things......that is life!
We also know this because we are told life as a Christian will not be easy......"

exactly!
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« Reply #55 on: July 07, 2005, 02:04:37 PM »

You also have a daughter to share your life with. That makes it easier.

Anastasios

I am not sure how having a child makes being celebate any easier. Right now my daughter is on vacation so she is not around for a while and it does not make it any harder for me to live a celibate life. In fact, I find myself even busier when she is gone, doing all the cleaning and cooking and yet paradoxically having more free time for spiritual reading and prayer, which strengthens me. If I am lonely and in need of company, I simply call and/or visit friends or go online and chat with them.
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« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2005, 02:08:18 PM »

I don't think that you people are understanding what I am saying. I know that life is unfair to everyone in someway and straight peoples attitude towards gay people only makes life harder, please do not get upset. It is just that I know a lot of people who are gay and they tell me what they have to go through, the criticism is heart retching.
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« Reply #57 on: July 07, 2005, 02:14:31 PM »

I would hope that you know that a gay person can not be ordained.

Of course they can, just as long as they remain celibate. However, with that said, the friends who I refer to were not ordained (the ones who have been ordained) until later in life, their 40's or later. They did not remain celibate simply for the purpose of being ordained.

Furthermore, I had professors in Undergraduate School who never married, you may wish to argue that is because they were gay and there were social pressures. But I find this unlikely, as I and others who knew some of them could attest to. It's simply that they had higher priorities in their life, and relationships of the sort just got in the way. The theory that humanity's primary motivation is procreation or personal relationships may be true in some instances, at times even in general, but it is not universal; not everyone sees the benifits of such an intimate relationship (heterosexual or homosexual) to outweigh the costs and extra baggage.
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« Reply #58 on: July 07, 2005, 03:18:09 PM »

Some have stated that some people are born with homosexual proclivities - but this would mean that God created people that way, which borders on blasphemous.  But the patristic stance on the issue seems to be that we are not born passionate, rather we let a thought enter the heart and over time it becomes a passion.  And once this passion has set in it feels as if it were natural, even though it is not.

I offer this from St. Silouan the Athonite by Archimandrite Sophrony:   

"The further development of a sinful intrusive thought can be portrayed roughly as follows: the mind is attracted by the delectation afforded by the passion, and this is an extremely important and crucial moment because the fusion of mind with tempting ideas provides fertile soil for passion.  If the mind does not by an exercise of will tear itself away from the suggested delights but continues to dwell on them, it will find itself pleasently attracted, then involved and finally positively acquiescent.  After that, the ever increasing delight in the passion may take possesion of -make captive - mind and will....such captivity may only happen once and never recur if it had come about because of the inexperience of someone engaged in the ascetic struggle.  But if the enchantment repeats itself, passion becomes second nature, and then all man's natural forces are at its service."  (emphasis mine)
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« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2005, 03:44:30 PM »

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6577.msg86247#msg86247 date=1120759477]
I am not sure how having a child makes being celebate any easier. Right now my daughter is on vacation so she is not around for a while and it does not make it any harder for me to live a celibate life. In fact, I find myself even busier when she is gone, doing all the cleaning and cooking and yet paradoxically having more free time for spiritual reading and prayer, which strengthens me. If I am lonely and in need of company, I simply call and/or visit friends or go online and chat with them.
[/quote]

I have never found friends to provide the same level of intimacy as family. Just my personal opinion though.

Anastasios
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« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2005, 03:45:50 PM »

Some have stated that some people are born with homosexual proclivities - but this would mean that God created people that way, which borders on blasphemous.ÂÂ  But the patristic stance on the issue seems to be that we are not born passionate, rather we let a thought enter the heart and over time it becomes a passion.ÂÂ  And once this passion has set in it feels as if it were natural, even though it is not.

I offer this from St. Silouan the Athonite by Archimandrite Sophrony:  ÃƒÆ’‚  

"The further development of a sinful intrusive thought can be portrayed roughly as follows: the mind is attracted by the delectation afforded by the passion, and this is an extremely important and crucial moment because the fusion of mind with tempting ideas provides fertile soil for passion.ÂÂ  If the mind does not by an exercise of will tear itself away from the suggested delights but continues to dwell on them, it will find itself pleasently attracted, then involved and finally positively acquiescent.ÂÂ  After that, the ever increasing delight in the passion may take possesion of -make captive - mind and will....such captivity may only happen once and never recur if it had come about because of the inexperience of someone engaged in the ascetic struggle.ÂÂ  But if the enchantment repeats itself, passion becomes second nature, and then all man's natural forces are at its service."ÂÂ  (emphasis mine)

People with genetic disorders are born that way but that does not mean that God created them that way.  It means that God created the original man perfect but human nature is now corrupted.

Anastasios
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« Reply #61 on: July 07, 2005, 03:52:35 PM »

'zactly.
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« Reply #62 on: July 07, 2005, 03:56:06 PM »

If homosexuality is a genetic disorder it is not a sin then, therefore the moral teaching of the church is wrong - which is not a good road to go down IMO. 

As the life of Father Seraphim attests, this passion can be overcome with much struggle.  Genetic disorders are a medical condition that are treated with medical means. 
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« Reply #63 on: July 07, 2005, 03:57:26 PM »

I have never found friends to provide the same level of intimacy as family. Just my personal opinion though.

Anastasios

Well thjat is true, the intamacy of friends, children, siblings, parents and spouses are all a very different thing. Each has its own charisma to it that one will not find in the other and one cannot replace the other completely as they are different.
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« Reply #64 on: July 07, 2005, 04:19:35 PM »

If homosexuality is a genetic disorder it is not a sin then, therefore the moral teaching of the church is wrong - which is not a good road to go down IMO.ÂÂ  

As the life of Father Seraphim attests, this passion can be overcome with much struggle.ÂÂ  Genetic disorders are a medical condition that are treated with medical means.ÂÂ  

No, it is not homosexuality that is genetically marked it is a predisposition to it, just like some are predisposed to be alcoholics.  It is still a sin to drink, and still a sin to fornicate, but it is not the fault of the person that they are predisposed.  I would suggest that if the scientific community had not abandoned the idea that homosexuality is an abheration, that perhaps someone would be able to come up with a genetic cure to the predisposition and thus lessen instances of active homosexuality. Since in our current society that will never happen, we can only deal with the aftermath.  The aftermath is treatable by celibacy.  Fr Seraphim overcame the temptations to fornicate but that does not mean he suddenly became attracted to women; who knows if he really did; only he knows.

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« Reply #65 on: July 07, 2005, 04:28:22 PM »

If homosexuality is a genetic disorder it is not a sin then, therefore the moral teaching of the church is wrong - which is not a good road to go down IMO. 

Who said homosexuality was a genetic disorder? How is one's mind formed by genetics?  How are opinions, tastes, likes and dislikes genetic? How are they environmental? They're obviously partially constructed of both, yet are not fully accounted for by either. Someone's tongue may have taste buds that like artichokes. Someone may have grown up in a family that ate artichokes all the time. And, someone can gain an 'acquired taste' by forcing themselves to like artichokes until they actually do. But, even if your tongue does think artichokes are good, you can decide to dislike them. If you family likes artichokes, you may be the black sheep who hates them. And, you can actively avoid artichokes and never give yourself the opportunity to get to like them.

Are humans genetically constructed to be heterosexual? I'd say no. Are humans genetically constructed to be homosexual? I'd say no. I dont think someone or something 'makes' you gay either.  I think people are just gay, just as you are just heterosexual. And it's just the same set of temptations, struggles, and choices that anyone has toward whatever sex they are attracted to. Just be supportive of those around you if they come to you for counsel or help in their Christian lives. That's what we're called to do for everyone.
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« Reply #66 on: July 07, 2005, 04:48:49 PM »

I think we are mostly talking past eachother now and actually agreeing (if not agreeing that we agree!).  I agree that people have pre-dispositions towards various sins, my point though was to not go to the extreme and say that predispositions cancel out the culpability for sins - although no one here said that, it can be inferred if you take certain a few steps further than they were said here.  I also don't see homosexuals as cured meaning that they are suddenly attracted to the opposite sex - to me the cure is when the passion is eradicated from the heart, whether they chose to then live in celibacy or marriage is irrlevant since both states are blessed by God.  IMO the "cure" lies in the entire life of the church and immersion within it.  The best author on this subject is Metr. Hierotheos Vlachos. 

As a side note a priest I know said something very interesting... that we only hear the word hell in church two times anymore: 1) if we drop something heavy on our foot or 2) when speaking of others.... he then went on to talk about the imbalence coming from many conservative religious groups in condemnations of homosexuals.  Yes the church teaches that lifestyle is wrong, but there is a danger of becoming over zealous about that one topic.  That through prayer, repentance and the ascetic life it can be conquered like any other passion.   
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« Reply #67 on: July 07, 2005, 05:25:05 PM »


 :)Nicely expressed Silouan!!  I concur.   God bless us all,    Juliana
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« Reply #68 on: July 07, 2005, 06:08:33 PM »

Tikhon, I agreed with everything you said until:

"You simply cannot change the sexual orientation of people. I think any type of aversion therapy that seeks to change gay people into "straight" people is misguided and damaging, and will eventually lead gay people to hate and despise themselves. And I abhor the idea that all a gay man needs to do is marry a woman and that will somehow "cure" him."

The problem is, people often have shades of sexual orientation; I once learned in a psychology class that there are really not many people who are 100% gay or 100% straight; most people lean one way or the other but through life or circumstances, some people do flip flop and some (bisexuals) even enjoy both.  So in the case of someone who has dated women but has some homosexual inclinations, should we tell him not to marry because he might end up deciding he actually leans gay? Or would it be better to encourage him to persue the straight side of him?

I would agree with your assessment of Focus on the Family as well, I think that reparative therapy is strange, but at the same time, if people exist who claim to have once been gay but who are now straight, shouldn't we give them the benefit of the doubt? Is each and every person who professes to be ex-gay lying?  I don't think a priest should ever suggest to a person that they try to "stop being gay" but if someone believes they can do it and is willing to try, shouldn't a priest help him in that endeavor considering that **if** it is God's will, a temptation can be taken away? (although even St Paul did not have his removed).

I guess what I am saying is that while I agree with everything else you said, I am unsure about your strict deliniation of gay vs. straight and I am also unsure if we should generalize and say that all gay people should never try to become straight.  I think most won't, most shouldn't even try perhaps, but if someone is gay but really has some reason for wanting to change over (such as sharing an intimate relationship with another human being and having children) and they approach the priest for assistance, I think the priest would be obligated to help him--although as I have said, I don't think priests should ever peddle fundamentalist protestant style "reparation therapy."

Have I misunderstood any of your positions or points of view, Tikhon? Because I actually am just interested in this subject from a pastoral point of view, am interested sincerely in the dialogue, and would simply like to learn more about the subject.

Anastasios

Anastasios: Thank you for such a polite and well responsed response!  I actually think I agree with everything you said. I was speaking in very broad terms, perhaps I should have made that clearer.  I am aware that people have shades of sexual orientation. I guess I just wasn't discussing nuances here. I was thinking of people that are either clearly gay or clearly straight, with no ambiguity.  As one who is gay myself, I can attest that the ONLY thing I have found that makes it manageable is unmitigated celibacy AND a Church that actively supports you being celibate.  I can also say that if it were not for the Orthodox Church, I probably would not be a Christian today because I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant "church" that demonized gay people and taught me to hate and despise myself and specifically told me that God hated me.  Even though I fought against this passion with all my might, prayed for God to take it away, tried to date women to force myself to be attracted to them, and yes, even watched straight pornographic videos to try to make myself lust after women (which somehow was always better than lusting after men), I couldn't do it. The gay passion remained. I really hated myself and wished that I had never been born. And I thought frequently of suicide as well. What particularly used to get to me was when I would hear the fundamentalists tell me that I was a "threat to the family" or a "threat to the institution of marriage". And to help counter the myth that all gay men are promiscuous, I was a virgin until I was 37. I am not saying this to brag or toot my own horn.  The whole reason I am bringing it up is because there are a LOT of us gay people out there, and we are in the Church, we just keep our mouths shut. And many of us gay Christians, unknown to the rest of you, really do struggle to live celibate Christian lives. We are not all the demons that the Christian Right makes us out to be.  All I know is that I did not choose to be this way, and if I could possibly change the way I am, I would. I don't like being gay. I never have liked it.  But I can honestly remember feeling this way since at least 1st grade. I'm 41 now and the feelings are basically unchanged. The only thing I can control is if I ACT on those feelings. That's where free will comes in. That's also where the struggle of the Christian life is, at least for me.  In the Orthodox Church you just cannot have gay love AND have the communion of the Church. You have to make a choice. You can't have both (and I am not saying we should have both either).  But if I have to choose between gay love and the Church, I am going to pick the Church every time. Yes, to some people that sounds harsh, doesn't it? Isn't the Church being a real "meanie" for putting gay people in that position of having to chose between love (which every human being craves) and the Church? I used to think that at one time, but not so anymore. Christ never promised that the Christian Way would be easy, convenient, satisfy our flesh or always satisfy us and make us happy. To the ears of a gay Christian, the words of Christ have a special intensity when He says "narrow and DIFFICULT is the road to eternal life, and few find it." And when we are told to die to the self, to crucify the flesh, to take up our cross and follow Him, none of that is pleasant AT THE TIME, but in the long term and eternally it does have its rewards.  As a gay Christian, I don't see much middle ground here.  We can either say that being gay is OK, just fine and dandy and be like the Episcopal Church and celebrate this by ordaining more Gene Robinsons as "bishops."  Or, we follow the path of our fathers, even though modern society may scorn us, more progressive 'churches' will look at us as dinosaurs, and political activists will call us "homophobes".  It was kind of embarassing to say all this and spill my guts like this, but I really thought it needed to be said.  I cannot begin to count the number of times that the example of my celibate archbishop has strengthened me in my committment to my own celibacy. I really feel sorry for gay Christians who are members of churches that do not value or respect celibacy. What torture that must be for them!
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« Reply #69 on: July 07, 2005, 06:14:58 PM »

Thank you for your witness, Tikhon. Pray for me, a sinner.
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« Reply #70 on: July 07, 2005, 06:19:47 PM »

Thank you Tikhon for bravely explaining your story to us! You are an inspiration, and I mean that as a real compliment and not a mere platitude!

Anastasios
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« Reply #71 on: July 07, 2005, 06:25:55 PM »

God bless you Tikhon!
I am sure you will be victorious, and I am sure this will be counted as martyrdom for you.
Pray for me.
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« Reply #72 on: July 07, 2005, 07:59:38 PM »

If someone is a gay Christian can they have a partner so long as they do not do anything sexual with them?
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« Reply #73 on: July 07, 2005, 08:14:49 PM »

If someone is a gay Christian can they have a partner so long as they do not do anything sexual with them?

No.
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« Reply #74 on: July 07, 2005, 08:24:32 PM »

If someone is a gay Christian can they have a partner so long as they do not do anything sexual with them?

Yes
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« Reply #75 on: July 07, 2005, 08:31:04 PM »

If someone is a gay Christian can they have a partner so long as they do not do anything sexual with them?

Are we talking like Platonically, or someone that they want to do...other...things with?  That would make a difference, right?
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« Reply #76 on: July 07, 2005, 08:49:12 PM »

First of all, the best and most eye-opening post on this site since I read and on any forum ever. Tikhon, brother God bless you and many years with no tears.


It is a characteristic of human beings to hate and be afraid of what they do not know.
It is a duty of Christians to try to understand and love what they get to know.








I have never found friends to provide the same level of intimacy as family. Just my personal opinion though.

Anastasios, have you ever been in the Army? In the war?
Also, I dare say that monks will tell a different story?

I am not arguing just trying to give a different perception.

I know blood is not water, but after all a man leave his blood for an unrelated woman and they become as one.


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« Reply #77 on: July 07, 2005, 08:54:37 PM »

Are we talking like Platonically, or someone that they want to do...other...things with?ÂÂ  That would make a difference, right?

Not just friends, but two people who are in love but that have a mutual agreement that they are not going to do sexual things they don't live together or anything but they just have a very none physical relationship and support each other in the cChristianfaith.
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« Reply #78 on: July 07, 2005, 09:00:56 PM »

We are to avoid the occasion of sin and a homosexual man living with a homosexual man he was in love with and in a relationship with would definitely be living in a situation where it would be easier to fall.

It is not ONLY the sexual act itself that is sinful, but the whole concept of a homosexual relationship.

Likewise it would be wrong for a straight man to live with a straight woman that he was in love with and had a relationship with if they were not married to one another, even if they were trying not to be physically intimate.
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« Reply #79 on: July 07, 2005, 09:06:15 PM »

I said they would NOT be living together.

 I don't think it would necessarily be harder to stay celibate, Rather than having no one to support you, you have someone that can encourage you in desperate times, if you had no one there it would be easier to let your self go and have a one night fling.
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« Reply #80 on: July 07, 2005, 09:11:29 PM »

Regardless, a homosexual relationship is wrong, whether it is physical or not.
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« Reply #81 on: July 07, 2005, 09:30:09 PM »

I am not trying to make conflict I just really want to understand............... Why not? The bible says that a Man shall not lay with another man, as long as they don't sleep together, than why not?
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« Reply #82 on: July 07, 2005, 10:52:52 PM »

A church with a woman priest.................... go look at "the charismatics are among us" we have discused all of this allready and believe me it was not pretty.

Also, I really feel the need to understand, sorry I annoy you so.
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« Reply #83 on: July 07, 2005, 11:24:00 PM »

A church with a woman priest.................... go look at "the charismatics are among us" we have discused all of this allready and believe me it was not pretty.

That is so funny.  Grin

Ok... Now this is it... I am not drinking tea whilst surfing the net ever again....
This is the last time I spat the mouthfull of tea all over the keyboard... LOL



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« Reply #84 on: July 07, 2005, 11:32:05 PM »

LOL!!!

Wow, that was great.........good times, good times.
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« Reply #85 on: July 07, 2005, 11:32:20 PM »

"Memory, all alone in the moonlight...."
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« Reply #86 on: July 08, 2005, 12:49:53 AM »

LOL, I thought spitting on the computer from a surprise only happenned in the movies!!! j/k

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That song reminds me of School of Rock when that snotty school girl tries to sing!!! LOL Cheesy
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« Reply #87 on: July 08, 2005, 01:46:09 AM »

Well said Tikhon and God bless you ....

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« Reply #88 on: July 08, 2005, 10:51:45 AM »

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6577.msg86298#msg86298 date=1120785089]
Regardless, a homosexual relationship is wrong, whether it is physical or not.
[/quote]

Hmmm ..... since I am a homosexual, ALL the relationships I have are homosexual relationships. Before people go beserk, let me explain. I am celibate, but I am a homosexual. It is my orientation. I am a homosexual in relationship with my father. I am a gay person who is in a relationship with my sister. I also have a relationship with my priest and father confessor. None of these, of course, are relationships that are sexual, but they still are RELATIONSHIPS. Making such a blanket statement as "all homosexual relationships are wrong, whether physical or not" makes me wonder why I am here on this planet. Am I a mistake? Am I an accident? Is the luxury of a relationship and connecting with another human being a right that is reserved exclusively for straight people? Perhaps I should just lock myself in my room alone and live as a recluse (like Howard Hughes) until I die? Would that be good enough? Would that suffice? Believe it or not, two gay people can have a relationship (deep friendship) with each other and not even want to get in each other's pants.  Perhaps this does not fit in with all the propaganda from the Christian Right that demonizes gay people such as myself simply because we exist (and whom some people, I fear would like to exterminate like cockroaches.)  I have a gay friend in Texas who is a devout Roman Catholic. He's celibate too. We often chat online about our struggles together. He has told me many times about how he approaches the Sacrament of Confession with tears. And I sense that he is a far better Christian that I am.  I would call that a relationship. I connect with him. We share the same struggles. And I highly doubt that it is a sin for me to connect with another human being like myself.  How about this example? I was talking online to a gay friend in my city who is sexually active, and he confided in me privately that he wished he was celibate. And he praised me for being celibate. He didn't encourage me to be promiscuous and go out and "find myself" at all. Imagine that!  I just have to say there is just as much variety among gay people as there is among heterosexual people. We really are no different. Its just our orientation that makes us slightly different. Now I would say that common sense would dictate that a gay person committed to celibacy not live under the same roof with another gay person that he is attracted to. That is simply asking for trouble. Nor do I think it is a good idea for a celibate gay person to go out to gay bars and clubs. That is asking for trouble too. And I am saddened by all these so-called "gay pride" parades all over the nation that portray all gay people as fornicating sodomites and drag queens. I think they are damaging to the gay community and wish they would stop.  But please, please, please don't tell me I can't have any gay friends. I don't believe the torture of isolation makes me any holier.
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« Reply #89 on: July 08, 2005, 11:20:03 AM »

"I once learned in a psychology class that there are really not many people who are 100% gay or 100% straight."

 I learned the same thing.  It seems that when you isolate people into same sex groups for very long periods of time, people tend to forget that they are "totally straight."  I think claiming to be straight or gay is a cultural thing, not a Christian one.
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« Reply #90 on: July 08, 2005, 11:28:33 AM »

Landon77,

You have to watch what you say around here............ If I were Tikhon I would be quite offended right now. It is like you are telling him that what he has been fighting against his whole life was not necessary because he was not 100% gay and If he wanted to use that other 2.......3........4 % to be straight than he could have.

Tikhon thank you for being so brave, sorry that you have to put up with persecution on this board. Peace
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« Reply #91 on: July 08, 2005, 11:53:56 AM »

Girl,

There is just as much support as there is negativity here. Smiley  Usually the overly negative people get tired of us and leave after a few months. The people who stay become quite friendly.

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« Reply #92 on: July 08, 2005, 01:30:47 PM »

Tikhon, that is NOT what I meant. I would not call your relationship with your father a homosexual relationship. I would have never thought of anyone calling it one either! I do not call my relationship with my father a straight relationship. Everything in our life should not be defined by our sexual orientation. But since I obviously confused and offended you, let me apologize and clarify.

What I am saying is that any celibate person cannot have a relationship that is a romantic relationship where you are dating but just not having sex and remain true to that vow of celibacy. That is true for homosexuals or monastics.

I never meant to infirm you cannot be friends with a co-struggler in celibacy.
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« Reply #93 on: July 08, 2005, 01:45:07 PM »

Let me ask you this, if two straight people who vowed to celibacy had a none sexual relationship, would that be acceptable? Even though they made that vow?
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« Reply #94 on: July 08, 2005, 02:16:45 PM »

If two people who are celibate had a romantic relationship without sexual contact, yes, I believe that goes beyond the boundaries of celibacy. It's not about just making a rule of how far one can go. That's the wrong understanding of celibacy.
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« Reply #95 on: July 08, 2005, 02:32:19 PM »

Hmm, this is interesting.  So based on what's been posted so far, it is possible for a homosexual to "inherit the Kingdom of God"  so long as they do not act on their impulses?  So when St. Paul writes in 1Corinthians 6:9 that "...Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals... will inherit the Kingdom of God" he is refering to those who act on their urges?  This is just for my own clarification.  Thanks.

For clarification, in Paul's day there wasn't a class of what was considered non-acting homosexual people.  Whether you were a thief or homosexual, it was the behavior that defined you in particular instances, and not an underlying feature of your biology.  If you repented and stop stealing, I'm guessing Paul wouldn't have thought of you as a thief, and likewise about homosexuality.  He could have been wrong about the science of sexuality.  Whether or not homosexuality is an inborn trait, I've no insight and no opinion.  I consider it irrelevant, especially when that approach opens the door to justifying all manner of excesses in each of us -- a thief can blame his poor upbring, an abusive husband can blame his abusive father, a slothful individual can blame his big bones, and so on.

If someone is a gay Christian can they have a partner so long as they do not do anything sexual with them?

Can I have a mistress if I don't sleep with her?  Why not?

Girl, the term "partner" or even "boyfriend/girlfriend" have at the very least sexual connotations.  It implies an expression of sexual lust for one another which isn't shared in normal friendships.  True, the biological urge itself isn't a sin, but the lustful thoughts are and it's not healthy to put yourself into a situation that'll provoke such thoughts and seriously challenge one's physical self control.
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« Reply #96 on: July 08, 2005, 02:52:40 PM »

I agree with choirfiend, because Girl, remember when Father said that just because you have stopped doing it, doesn't mean that it is not a part of you. You have to resist it not because it is wrong, but becuase you know it is not you. If a serial killer got out of jail, but still thought aboyut killing people, but resisted because he knew it was wrong, he would still be a serial killer because he is just doing waht he is told, and not what he knows is right. You shoul resist the temptation not because you know it is wrong, but because you know it is not you.
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« Reply #97 on: July 08, 2005, 06:10:31 PM »

Landon77,

You have to watch what you say around here............ If I were Tikhon I would be quite offended right now. It is like you are telling him that what he has been fighting against his whole life was not necessary because he was not 100% gay and If he wanted to use that other 2.......3........4 % to be straight than he could have.

Tikhon thank you for being so brave, sorry that you have to put up with persecution on this board. Peace

Offended? ROFLOL I am in NO WAY OFFENDED.  I don't claim to be any authority whatsoever on human psychology or sexuality. In fact, most of what I have read actually confirms what Landon has said, that sexual orientation is somewhat of a continuum with most people not being 100% gay or 100% straight.  Why would such a statement offend me? I don't get it. While I am sensitive to blantant homophobic prejudice such as the "all gay people are pedophiles" or the "gay people go out and recruit people to be gay" nonsense, I think at the same time gay people need to have a sense of proportion, a sense of humor, and not go around with a chip on their shoulder. I myself grow quite weary of the gay person who sees the need to be attention-seeking in public by constanly "coming out" everywhere, blowing a loud trumpet in public about being "gay" and "proud" of it. I'm gay, but I certainly don't blow a trumpet about it and I am not proud of it either. I think embarassed about it might be the best way to describe it.
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« Reply #98 on: July 08, 2005, 06:13:22 PM »

I would like to thank you all for your kind and supportive remarks. Again it reminds me why I am in the Orthodox Church and not on the staff of "Focus on the Family."  Grin
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« Reply #99 on: July 08, 2005, 11:00:25 PM »

Landon77,

You have to watch what you say around here............ If I were Tikhon I would be quite offended right now. It is like you are telling him that what he has been fighting against his whole life was not necessary because he was not 100% gay and If he wanted to use that other 2.......3........4 % to be straight than he could have.

Tikhon thank you for being so brave, sorry that you have to put up with persecution on this board. Peace
That's not what I ment by it, and I didn't mean for it to be in any way offensive.  But from what the psych. community does know, sexuality, like every thing else, works on a spectrum, it is neither black nor white.  What it does mean, however, is that you can have some people that are "more homosexual" than others and "more straight" than others.
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« Reply #100 on: July 08, 2005, 11:25:12 PM »

Tikhon, your posts have been very enlightening and helpful in understanding homosexuality, especially as homosexuality relates to Christianity. This has been an area of much confusion and distress for me. But your perspective eases that tension. I pray to God for your strength. Pray for me; chastity is not my strong point.

-Chuck

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« Reply #101 on: July 09, 2005, 04:15:30 PM »

Tikhon, your posts have been very enlightening and helpful in understanding homosexuality, especially as homosexuality relates to Christianity. This has been an area of much confusion and distress for me. But your perspective eases that tension. I pray to God for your strength. Pray for me; chastity is not my strong point.

-Chuck



The best treatment I have found for homosexuality is to confront it. Perhaps you have already done this, but I would encourage you and everyone who struggles with this passion to go to your priest in confession and just pour your soul out to him about it. And pour EVERYTHING out, especially the things that you are most ashamed of. Its quite liberating and I believe God honors it. Remember too that anything we pour out in confession cannot be held against us on the Great and Fearful Day of Judgment. If you repent and confess, it is forgiven. And God doesn't bring it up again. Hopefully, you will find a discrete and understanding priest that will listen to you and not scold. Just as an aside here, I don't think scolding is ever appropriate by the priest in confession. All it does is encourage penitents to cloak and hide their deepest sins and shames them into silence. You have to have enough trust with your Father Confessor to know that WHATEVER you confess, he will listen soberly and attentively, not interupt you with "You did WHAT?" or start finger-pointing in the middle of your confession. Fortunately I have found such a Father Confessor and it makes an ENORMOUS difference in one's spiritual life. You want to find a priest that lets you confess EVERYTHING, and who quietly and gently asks, "Is there anything else you need to confess?" before he offers you even the first word of advice or admonition. Just a few thoughts on this matter. 
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