Headscarves Tips

[Jennifer]

I found this website explaining different ways to tie a scarf.  I've tried the bun and the ribbon which were pretty easy. 

How Do I Tie My Scarf?

[Donna Rose]

thanx for posting that Jennifer...unfortunately the scarves i own are all too small to do the extra bits in most of these knots, i just usually make it a traingle and tie the 2 corners under my ponytail - they are just barely long enough to do that. but if i ever get a bigger scarf i will probably try some of these out...the jerusalem twist looks nice, and the braid is pretty cool too

[TomS]

"Headscarves Tips"

#1 Convert to Islam
#2 Shut yout trap in church/synagogue/mosque!
#3 What are you doing out of the kitchen?
#4 Where's my dinner?

 

[Robert]

#5 stand at the kitchen sink
#6 get me a drink
#7 where's the remote

[choirfiend]

More tips-

Have the freedom to wear or not wear whatever you want on your head. Don't let it control who you are. yay.

[TomS]

This site might also to helpful:

How Do I Tie My Apron?

[choirfiend]

How do I sign divorce papers?

[Veniamin]

How do I sign divorce papers?

I'll help you with that one.  It'll be $300/hour. 

[choirfiend]

How about we just start out with a pre-nup. Like, part of the agreement is that I can wear whatever I want on my head without comment. It's just as much my right to wear a headcovering as it is to not. And he can choose whether or not to wear a suit to church. That sounds good to me

[Veniamin]

How about we just start out with a pre-nup. Like, part of the agreement is that I can wear whatever I want on my head without comment. It's just as much my right to wear a headcovering as it is to not. And he can choose whether or not to wear a suit to church. That sounds good to me

Okay, that was 1/6 of an hour, so that'll be $50.  A check will be fine. 

[choirfiend]

Payable upon receipt of the paperwork....overnight mail is fine.

[Veniamin]

Payable upon receipt of the paperwork....overnight mail is fine.

The paperwork will take much more time.  That bill was just for the advice.

[Anastasios]

The paperwork will take much more time.ÂÂ  That bill was just for the advice.

I used to work for a lawyer that charged the modest fee of $100 for an hour consultation.  People would sometimes get mad and say, "what do you mean I have to pay $100 to see if I have a case?!" I was instructed by the lawyer to actually shoot back, "would you go to a doctor and get a diagnosis for free? Nope."

Anastasios

[GiC]

How about we just start out with a pre-nup. Like, part of the agreement is that I can wear whatever I want on my head without comment. It's just as much my right to wear a headcovering as it is to not. And he can choose whether or not to wear a suit to church. That sounds good to me

One has the right to wear whatever they want on their head, but it's also our right to form opinions about one based on their praxis...Freedom of Conscience, for good or ill, works both ways.

Now as for those who insist on such practices, I will agree with TomS and my advice to them is that they'd probably be more comfortable, and less problematic, in Islam.

[Jennifer]

One has the right to wear whatever they want on their head, but it's also our right to form opinions about one based on their praxis...Freedom of Conscience, for good or ill, works both ways.

Now as for those who insist on such practices, I will agree with TomS and my advice to them is that they'd probably be more comfortable, and less problematic, in Islam.

That's absurd.  People who attend ROCOR and other old calendarist churches would not be "more comfortable" with Islam than Christianity.  Traditionalist Roman Catholics would not be "more comfortable" with Islam. 

I wear a scarf when I attend liturgy but accept that most women don't feel comfortable convering their heads.  But let's not forget that it was the tradition from the beginning of Christianity until about 1965 or so for women to cover their heads in church.  Further it does say in Scripture that women should cover their heads in church.  I don't take this to mean that all women should cover their heads but understand how some could reach such a conclusion.  It's absurd to suggest that someone who looks to the traditions of the Church and Scriptures would be "more comfortable" with Islam than Christianity. 

[choirfiend]

I concur. Hostility or ridicule is just not necessary, and the free exchange of ideas and information could, theorectically, take place without it.

[GiC]

That's absurd.ÂÂ  People who attend ROCOR and other old calendarist churches would not be "more comfortable" with Islam than Christianity.ÂÂ  Traditionalist Roman Catholics would not be "more comfortable" with Islam.ÂÂ  

I wear a scarf when I attend liturgy but accept that most women don't feel comfortable convering their heads.ÂÂ  But let's not forget that it was the tradition from the beginning of Christianity until about 1965 or so for women to cover their heads in church.ÂÂ  Further it does say in Scripture that women should cover their heads in church.ÂÂ  I don't take this to mean that all women should cover their heads but understand how some could reach such a conclusion.ÂÂ  It's absurd to suggest that someone who looks to the traditions of the Church and Scriptures would be "more comfortable" with Islam than Christianity.ÂÂ  

Dont take too much offence. If you dont believe in such foolishness as requiring women to wear headscarfs, then my comments were not even directed at you. Though I, more so than most here, have long insisted on the importance of Culture in the Church, and the inseperable nature of the two, I will also say that Culture Changes, even Orthodox Cultures, though they may take longer to do so (for Both better and worse). Furthermore, the basis of my comments is that absolutizing of a certain culture at a certain point in time and prohibiting any evolution is not a Characteristic of Christianity, but of Islam. So if you want to spend your time making such irrelevant points pillars of your faith, please become a Moslem (or a Jew) and you'll be able to find many other people who enjoy doing this with you...Hmmm, perhaps Judaizers would be a workable polemic label for these people, I'll have to think about it LOL.

I concur. Hostility or ridicule is just not necessary, and the free exchange of ideas and information could, theorectically, take place without it.

You mistake Polemics for Hostility. Furthermore, Controversal and (sometimes) Scandalous may not be essential to an exchange of Ideas, but it can help getting a point 'home,' if you will more efficiently and effectively than more restrained words and, if nothing else, it certainly makes the exchange more fun.  )

[jlerms]

Maybe I am a freak....but for me I feel better about wearing a scarf. ÂÂ Here are the reasons. ÂÂ 1) I was first introduced to Orthodoxy at a Greek monastery where women are required to cover their heads. ÂÂ 2) This probably sounds weird, but when I wear a scarf I find that I can concentrate on the Divine Liturgy more. ÂÂ I think this is due to the fact that my ears are covered and somehow that makes me less distracted by others around me who at times can be "noisy". ÂÂ I have no one else to blame but myself when I get distracted...but I need all the help I can get (even if it seems silly to others). ÂÂ  3) I also wanted to say that some may think that women nowadays who wear headscarves in church (unless they are elderly) are trying to look ÂÂ "more pious" than others. ÂÂ This could be true in some cases, however, for me I find that it helps me be less concerned with my vanity. ÂÂ When I was younger I was much preoccupied with making my hair attractively arranged along with having makeup on when I went out. ÂÂ Now ÂÂ I can see the folly in this. ÂÂ This is not to say that I do not want to make myself attractive for my husband, but I try to avoid being overly concerned about my appearance. ÂÂ A difficult thing in our american society.
Oh well,  that's my 2 cents.   ÃƒÆ’‚ God bless you all here at OC.net!

[TomS]

..I will agree with TomS ...

Bad move! 

[Jennifer]

Dont take too much offence. If you dont believe in such foolishness as requiring women to wear headscarfs, then my comments were not even directed at you.

I knew your comment wasn't directed at me.  However, I know some good people who do believe that women should cover their heads in church.  I know of some monasteries where women are required to cover their heads in church.  To suggest that these people would be more comfortable in Islam is absurd.

Though I, more so than most here, have long insisted on the importance of Culture in the Church, and the inseperable nature of the two, I will also say that Culture Changes, even Orthodox Cultures, though they may take longer to do so (for Both better and worse). Furthermore, the basis of my comments is that absolutizing of a certain culture at a certain point in time and prohibiting any evolution is not a Characteristic of Christianity, but of Islam. So if you want to spend your time making such irrelevant points pillars of your faith, please become a Moslem (or a Jew) and you'll be able to find many other people who enjoy doing this with you...Hmmm, perhaps Judaizers would be a workable polemic label for these people, I'll have to think about it LOL.

I've told you this before, greekchristian, but you seem to not be able to understand people who don't think like you.  You need to learn more tolerance for people with different points of view.  No one suggested that the monks who require to cover their heads are making this a "pillar" of their faith.  They're simply following tradition and Scripture. 

You mistake Polemics for Hostility. Furthermore, Controversal and (sometimes) Scandalous may not be essential to an exchange of Ideas, but it can help getting a point 'home,' if you will more efficiently and effectively than more restrained words and, if nothing else, it certainly makes the exchange more fun.  )

I too sense hostility in what you write.  Perhaps that's colored by your other posts but I sense you have a deep-seated hostility towards people, Orthodox or not, who don't think like you. 

[choirfiend]

I, for one, would probably feel the need to throw a fit if my priest suddenly started requiring head coverings in church. While in Mexico at Project Mexico, we were informed that headcoverings were available in the church and that Padre asked that anyone who was comfortable with wearing one should feel free to do so. The request was made in love, and all the women (minus one, who was not Orthodox) chose to wear one while at Liturgy. During our own evening prayer, without any clergy present, we didn't wear them. It was no big deal, no difference made between people who chose to wear them and ppl who didn't. If I was visiting Russia, I'd wear one. If I was visiting California, I wouldn't. It really doesn't need to be an issue.

[TomS]

If I was visiting Russia, I'd wear one. If I was visiting California, I wouldn't. It really doesn't need to be an issue.

Exactly. If it is a part of the culture (which in the U.S. it is not) then you should do so out of respect.

[choirfiend]

And if people want to make it part of American culture, that's ok too.  Because, after all, that's what America is--a place where lots of people come and bring their customs and blend them til they become part of America's customs.

[GiC]

Bad move!ÂÂ  

Dont worry, I dont like agreeing with you any more than you like me agreeing with you.

And if people want to make it part of American culture, that's ok too. Because, after all, that's what America is--a place where lots of people come and bring their customs and blend them til they become part of America's customs.

Why did I have such a difficult time getting this point accross when we were discussing the language issue? Anyway, I'm glad someone finally got it. But my point was that Orthodox Cultures are changing as well, in many Orthodox Countries most women under 50 will not wear headscarfs...I cant speak for Russia, but if they still insist on this custom, I wouldn't be too surprised, due to unfortunate social conditions in the 20th Century they still seem, in many of their customs, to be stuck in the 19th Century...but things in Russia are changing.

[choirfiend]

Because language blends into a language just the same as other customs--it doesn't remain separate. We use greek words as part of English--they are used within the English context and have meaning in English. It's not the same as maintaining a foreign language with no meaning in English. I'm well aware that we have no official language, however, Americans become part of America mainly through language. If you're not speaking/learning English or in some cases, Spanish, you're not blending into America. 

[Silouan]

Don't be an ηλίθιος, GreekisPagan.  Should I wear a t-shirt and shorts to Church because that is the trend (especially when it is 45 C / 110 F+  outside)?  Should a women were a super short micro skirt and midrift, since that is the common clothing of the people?  That is the logic you are using. 

[Nigula Qian Zishi]

Don't be an ηλίθιος, GreekisPagan.ÂÂ  Should I wear a t-shirt and shorts to Church because that is the trend (especially when it is 45 C / 110 F+ÂÂ  outside)?ÂÂ  Should a women were a super short micro skirt and midrift, since that is the common clothing of the people?ÂÂ  That is the logic you are using.ÂÂ  

Maybe in getting with the times he wants the Russian Church to stop having regular Confession, to start making the services shorter, to stop the priests from wearing proper clerical clothing and having beards and also for them to stop standing for all of Liturgy too?

Or maybe he just wants them to get organs? :-P

Sorry GiP, but renovationism has already been declared heretical by the Orthodox Church before the evil Communist revolution.

[GiC]

Don't be an ηλίθιος, GreekisPagan.ÂÂ  Should I wear a t-shirt and shorts to Church because that is the trend (especially when it is 45 C / 110 F+ÂÂ  outside)?ÂÂ  Should a women were a super short micro skirt and midrift, since that is the common clothing of the people?ÂÂ  That is the logic you are using.ÂÂ  

Rest assured Imam Silouan, my IQ is well over 20. And as great as I think it would be wonderful for everyone to come to Church dressed as they did in the 6th Century (Or we could go to Church in the Togas that were so common amongst the Upper Class and Senators) it's simply not something that should be demanded of the laity. Vestments are for the Clergy, let the laity wear what they typically wear in society.

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6573.msg85854#msg85854 date=1120518602]
Maybe in getting with the times he wants the Russian Church to stop having regular Confession,
[/quote]

Not Necessicarily, but I do wish they would stop making it a prerequesite for Communion, being a prep-talk for the Eucharist was neither the purpose nor intent of the Holy Sacrament of Confession and Reconciliation.

to start making the services shorter,

Depending on the circumstances, at times this may be prudent.

to stop the priests from wearing proper clerical clothing and having beards and also for them to stop standing for all of Liturgy too?

Whether or not priests need beards is almost as absurd an argument as how long they should be (though not quite) (with that said, it's a fun topic for polemics against the west...one I try to bring up at least in passing to score points ). But concerning the conduct and apperance of the Priest, he is a Priest, not a layman. He is to be held to a different standard and there are different expectations of him. Attention to minor detail in the liturgy and various other ecclesiastical customs is, in large part, the Priest's Job...when you start making the entire community follow minor and insignificant customs as though they were our most sublime dogmas you end up with a cult.

Or maybe he just wants them to get organs? :-P

Nah, they just dont go with Byzantine Music...no matter how hard people try. And the more westernized music they do work with just doesnt go with the Byzantine Services.

Sorry GiP, but renovationism has already been declared heretical by the Orthodox Church before the evil Communist revolution.

So my suggestion that requiring women wear headscarves is unacceptable in our current social context is heretical? I beseech thee most wise and holy teacher, present unto me thy Holy Synod by which I am condemned.

[Silouan]

Still going back to Islam argument, that anyone who doesn't agree with must be muslim?  Which is ironic since I never even stated my position on matter of headscarves, only that your argument against them has holes in it.  But I guess simply questioning your authority makes me a muslim.   

All I am doing is saying that your argument when taken to its logical conclusion is dangerous.  And notice how I can say that I disagree with your stance without calling you a non-Christian. 

[GiC]

Still going back to Islam argument, that anyone who doesn't agree with must be muslim?  Which is ironic since I never even stated my position on matter of headscarves, only that your argument against them has holes in it.  But I guess simply questioning your authority makes me a muslim.  ÃƒÆ’‚Â

All I am doing is saying that your argument when taken to its logical conclusion is dangerous.ÂÂ  And notice how I can say that I disagree with your stance without calling you a non-Christian.ÂÂ  

Oh, Silouan, dont take to much offence to me using the title 'imam' infront of your name...it was in response to you calling me, 'GreekisPagan'

Modesty is certainly virtuous for everyone...but I simply do not see how headscarves are necessary for practicing of modesty.

[choirfiend]

Ask the greek yia-yias in the old country with their headscarves 24/7. They'll tell you.

[Silouan]

GreekisPagan is a refrence to the fact that Greece was one of the centers of Paganism in the ancient world, an argument against saying Greek culture is inherently Christian... not saying that you are pagan.  If you thought I was calling you a pagan, I am not.  If your first name is "Greek" and you meant your username here as a personal thing, then I could understand you thinking I meant you were a pagan.  Being that you have made us all aware often serveral times in a single post that you are under the jurisdiction of the EP, I do not question your Orthodoxy.

Modesty is certainly virtuous for everyone...but I simply do not see how headscarves are necessary for practicing of modesty.

Then a better argument would be that headcoverings do not contribute to modesty because of A, B and C.  But playing the pop culture card is an invitation to more trouble down the road.  But I agree that in the big scheme of things it is not the most important issue confronting Orthodoxy at the moment. ÂÂ

[StephenG]

A question might be why would 'most women' not be comfortable wearing a head covering? Dressing in a moderate and modest fashion in church is surely done to honour Him who we come to worship, and not to conform to the 'tutting' person behind us?

[choirfiend]

Because in America, dressing in moderate and modest fashion does not necessarily include headcoverings.

[StephenG]

"Because in America......."

Many things may be the 'norm' in America, but I am not sure how that influences things. Christianity is not about conforming to the social mores of this or that place in this or that era. Humility might have a greater call on those who wish to embrace Him, surely? Modesty of appearance is important whether one is a man, woman or child but is not about exhibitionism either. The sense I appear to get from some postings here is an atmosphere of either great and destructive sarcasm or this is how we do it here and Christianity too will conform too. Is this pride or misplaced nationalism, something I thought the ethnic and wannabe ethnics were so hung up on?

[choirfiend]

Nope, but I think it is the awareness that Christianity, the kind that doesn't conform to what are wishes are, doesn't necessarily include clothing choices.

[Silouan]

As an interesting side note of irony.... someone who resfuses to use modern English grammar and spelling rules insists that headscarves shouldn't be worn because they aren't American in terms of modesty. 

[GiC]

As an interesting side note of irony.... someone who resfuses to use modern English grammar and spelling rules insists that headscarves shouldn't be worn because they aren't American in terms of modesty.ÂÂ  

I tend to be quite traditional in Personal Preferences, I like traditional Grammar, I like traditional linguistic styles, my tastes in Clothing are fairly conservative. Ask any of my friends from Holy Cross on this board, you'll VERY Rarely see me in Jeans (so rarely the two times I wore them over the course of the last two years at School I received multiple comments on it both times), and I never wear Shorts; I never used to wear T-Shirts, but now I have a Linux T-Shirt that I tend to wear once a Month or so on a weekend.

But with that said, while I want to be free to follow my personal preferences on these accidentals; I also want others to be free to follow their personal preferences.

[choirfiend]

Just be aware that your personal preferences make your posts unreadable to my eyes and actually serve to lessen your arguments by appearing so. The inner voice that reads "out loud" in my head when I read cannot speak when having to "emphasize" so many words. It gives an air of the absurd to what you're saying, which certainly cannot help when you wish to make a serious argument. You may not care what I go through when I read what you post, but many others seem to agree that it makes things difficult. Just something to consider.

[StephenG]

A couple of observations if I may.

The abandoning of headgear by women is not an AMERICAN phenomena but one that may be observed across Europe and the Middle East.

Personal Preference could be a euphemism for pride perhaps? Certainly I have frequently observed men and women whose apparel can hardly be described as modest, but then they might too respond with the answer it is their personal preference. And those who commit every sin and vice or subscribe to any and every heresy might also answer is it my personal preference.

I had thought that taking up the cross was to lay aside one's 'personal preferences' or is Orthodox Christianity simply another example of 'pick and mix' religion rather than The Truth, The Way and The Light?

[choirfiend]

Yea, but then you're assigning a sin to someone whose inner workings you don't know and judging them for it. Modes of dress have changed in American, Europe, and other places too. We're not wearing togas or robes any more. oooooh, scary. What pride.

Like was said before--you got a wife? you can discuss it with her. Otherwise, keep your eyes on your own salvation and not the heads of any women around you. It's better for you spiritually.

[GiC]

A couple of observations if I may.

The abandoning of headgear by women is not an AMERICAN phenomena but one that may be observed across Europe and the Middle East.

Thank You for making a point that I have been making; it's not an American innovention, but a Cultural change throughout the world, Orthodox and Heterodox.

Personal Preference could be a euphemism for pride perhaps? Certainly I have frequently observed men and women whose apparel can hardly be described as modest, but then they might too respond with the answer it is their personal preference. And those who commit every sin and vice or subscribe to any and every heresy might also answer is it my personal preference.

Didn't I mention something about accidentals in my previous post? When I go to the trouble of undermining a rebuttal in my original argument one could at least take that into account. Furthermore, if you actually observe communities where no one wears a headscarf, compared to communities where they are required, in the former they are simply not an issue, they are irrelevant; in the latter, however, they are a significant issue, I question whether the community in which such issues are not even considered is guilty of pride, or the legalistic communities who force the issue are the prideful and self-righteous ones.

I had thought that taking up the cross was to lay aside one's 'personal preferences' or is Orthodox Christianity simply another example of 'pick and mix' religion rather than The Truth, The Way and The Light?

I cannot agree more, we MUST Maintain the culture of the 4th century without evolution or change, for to do otherwise is to guide the Church into Apostasy. One of my pet peeves are men who wear pants to Church, can you believe the Pride, Arrogance, and Debauchery of such sinners? They mock God and the Customs of the Holy Church by not having enough decency to throw on a proper Robe, but rather deign to show off their bodies in the House of God, as though it were a brothel and den of iniquity, existing for nothing beyond the indulgance of the passions, by wearing clothing that does not drape over them and hide the form of bodies, but rather accents it. Such immorality would be expected amongst the godless pagans, but not even they wore such provocative clothing; verily, the men of our day have surpassed even the pagans of old in debauchery, immorality, and the indulgance of passions.  Surely in this evil day of such godlessness and immodesty, amongst so-called righteous Men, all decency and virtue have left this world. The Eschaton must Surely be at Hand!!! Let us cast the sinful wearers of pants from the Churches and commend their souls to Lucifer, whom they willingly serve, that they may spend all of eternity tormented by the demons and fire of Hell; by thus, and by thus only, may the Orthodoxy of the Church and the Will of the Fathers and the Example of Christ be preserved!

(To be read as Patrick Henry's 'Liberty or Death' speech, starting in a normal but emphatic voice and ending very loudly and emphatic, with a gradual climb in tone and volume...and after 'Orthodoxy of the Church,' 'Will of the Fathers,' and 'Example of Christ' the podium/table/desk (or better yet, Bible) should be pounded, then 'preserved' should be shouted at the top of ones lungs with a firm thumping of the bible (or podium/table/desk if a Bible is not available to thump) )

[Veniamin]

I cannot agree more, we MUST Maintain the culture of the 4th century without evolution or change, for to do otherwise is to guide the Church into Apostasy.

Better lay off this whole internet thing, then, huh?

[StephenG]

Reading my post I am only aware that I have observed the dress of some is immodest. This is not ascribing a 'sin' but a simple observation. Just as I suspect every single person in every single church makes a number of observations during the course of any visit anywhere. A subject has been raised here and comments by implication invited on a subject, i.e. headscarves. I will try to take the advice on attending to my own salvation but again the 'swipe' makes a presumption that I or others who comment are not attending.

Nor did I in anyway seek to imply a return to some historic dress code, indeed a reading of my previous post should have made that clear.

As for the sarcasm, why come here to a Christian sight if you feel this a means of sharing with others?

[choirfiend]

Yea, I think it's the implication that not wearing headgear equals immodest dress. But eh!

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