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Author Topic: Headscarves Tips  (Read 8920 times) Average Rating: 0
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Jennifer
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« on: July 03, 2005, 02:06:01 PM »

I found this website explaining different ways to tie a scarf.  I've tried the bun and the ribbon which were pretty easy. 

How Do I Tie My Scarf?

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« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2005, 02:12:23 PM »

thanx for posting that Jennifer...unfortunately the scarves i own are all too small to do the extra bits in most of these knots, i just usually make it a traingle and tie the 2 corners under my ponytail - they are just barely long enough to do that. but if i ever get a bigger scarf i will probably try some of these out...the jerusalem twist looks nice, and the braid is pretty cool too Smiley
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« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2005, 02:45:45 PM »

"Headscarves Tips"

#1 Convert to Islam
#2 Shut yout trap in church/synagogue/mosque!
#3 What are you doing out of the kitchen?
#4 Where's my dinner?

 Cheesy
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« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2005, 03:04:34 PM »

#5 stand at the kitchen sink
#6 get me a drink
#7 where's the remote
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« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2005, 03:06:54 PM »

More tips-

Have the freedom to wear or not wear whatever you want on your head. Don't let it control who you are. yay.
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« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2005, 03:58:15 PM »

This site might also to helpful:

How Do I Tie My Apron?
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« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2005, 03:59:17 PM »

How do I sign divorce papers? Cheesy
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« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2005, 04:12:28 PM »

How do I sign divorce papers? Cheesy

I'll help you with that one.  It'll be $300/hour.  Cheesy
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« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2005, 04:23:32 PM »

How about we just start out with a pre-nup. Like, part of the agreement is that I can wear whatever I want on my head without comment. It's just as much my right to wear a headcovering as it is to not. And he can choose whether or not to wear a suit to church. That sounds good to me Wink
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« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2005, 04:41:15 PM »

How about we just start out with a pre-nup. Like, part of the agreement is that I can wear whatever I want on my head without comment. It's just as much my right to wear a headcovering as it is to not. And he can choose whether or not to wear a suit to church. That sounds good to me Wink

Okay, that was 1/6 of an hour, so that'll be $50.  A check will be fine.  Wink
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« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2005, 04:43:36 PM »

Payable upon receipt of the paperwork....overnight mail is fine.
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« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2005, 05:13:05 PM »

Payable upon receipt of the paperwork....overnight mail is fine.

The paperwork will take much more time.  That bill was just for the advice.
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« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2005, 05:16:18 PM »

The paperwork will take much more time.ÂÂ  That bill was just for the advice.

I used to work for a lawyer that charged the modest fee of $100 for an hour consultation.  People would sometimes get mad and say, "what do you mean I have to pay $100 to see if I have a case?!" I was instructed by the lawyer to actually shoot back, "would you go to a doctor and get a diagnosis for free? Nope."

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« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2005, 08:39:27 PM »

How about we just start out with a pre-nup. Like, part of the agreement is that I can wear whatever I want on my head without comment. It's just as much my right to wear a headcovering as it is to not. And he can choose whether or not to wear a suit to church. That sounds good to me Wink

One has the right to wear whatever they want on their head, but it's also our right to form opinions about one based on their praxis...Freedom of Conscience, for good or ill, works both ways.

Now as for those who insist on such practices, I will agree with TomS and my advice to them is that they'd probably be more comfortable, and less problematic, in Islam.
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« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2005, 08:56:14 PM »

One has the right to wear whatever they want on their head, but it's also our right to form opinions about one based on their praxis...Freedom of Conscience, for good or ill, works both ways.

Now as for those who insist on such practices, I will agree with TomS and my advice to them is that they'd probably be more comfortable, and less problematic, in Islam.

That's absurd.  People who attend ROCOR and other old calendarist churches would not be "more comfortable" with Islam than Christianity.  Traditionalist Roman Catholics would not be "more comfortable" with Islam. 

I wear a scarf when I attend liturgy but accept that most women don't feel comfortable convering their heads.  But let's not forget that it was the tradition from the beginning of Christianity until about 1965 or so for women to cover their heads in church.  Further it does say in Scripture that women should cover their heads in church.  I don't take this to mean that all women should cover their heads but understand how some could reach such a conclusion.  It's absurd to suggest that someone who looks to the traditions of the Church and Scriptures would be "more comfortable" with Islam than Christianity. 

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« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2005, 09:16:11 PM »

I concur. Hostility or ridicule is just not necessary, and the free exchange of ideas and information could, theorectically, take place without it.
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« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2005, 09:26:28 PM »

That's absurd.ÂÂ  People who attend ROCOR and other old calendarist churches would not be "more comfortable" with Islam than Christianity.ÂÂ  Traditionalist Roman Catholics would not be "more comfortable" with Islam.ÂÂ  

I wear a scarf when I attend liturgy but accept that most women don't feel comfortable convering their heads.ÂÂ  But let's not forget that it was the tradition from the beginning of Christianity until about 1965 or so for women to cover their heads in church.ÂÂ  Further it does say in Scripture that women should cover their heads in church.ÂÂ  I don't take this to mean that all women should cover their heads but understand how some could reach such a conclusion.ÂÂ  It's absurd to suggest that someone who looks to the traditions of the Church and Scriptures would be "more comfortable" with Islam than Christianity.ÂÂ  

Dont take too much offence. If you dont believe in such foolishness as requiring women to wear headscarfs, then my comments were not even directed at you. Though I, more so than most here, have long insisted on the importance of Culture in the Church, and the inseperable nature of the two, I will also say that Culture Changes, even Orthodox Cultures, though they may take longer to do so (for Both better and worse). Furthermore, the basis of my comments is that absolutizing of a certain culture at a certain point in time and prohibiting any evolution is not a Characteristic of Christianity, but of Islam. So if you want to spend your time making such irrelevant points pillars of your faith, please become a Moslem (or a Jew) and you'll be able to find many other people who enjoy doing this with you...Hmmm, perhaps Judaizers would be a workable polemic label for these people, I'll have to think about it Wink LOL.

I concur. Hostility or ridicule is just not necessary, and the free exchange of ideas and information could, theorectically, take place without it.

You mistake Polemics for Hostility. Furthermore, Controversal and (sometimes) Scandalous may not be essential to an exchange of Ideas, but it can help getting a point 'home,' if you will more efficiently and effectively than more restrained words and, if nothing else, it certainly makes the exchange more fun.  Smiley)
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« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2005, 09:39:05 PM »

Maybe I am a freak....but for me I feel better about wearing a scarf. ÂÂ Here are the reasons. ÂÂ 1) I was first introduced to Orthodoxy at a Greek monastery where women are required to cover their heads. ÂÂ 2) This probably sounds weird, but when I wear a scarf I find that I can concentrate on the Divine Liturgy more. ÂÂ I think this is due to the fact that my ears are covered and somehow that makes me less distracted by others around me who at times can be "noisy". ÂÂ I have no one else to blame but myself when I get distracted...but I need all the help I can get (even if it seems silly to others). ÂÂ  3) I also wanted to say that some may think that women nowadays who wear headscarves in church (unless they are elderly) are trying to look ÂÂ "more pious" than others. ÂÂ This could be true in some cases, however, for me I find that it helps me be less concerned with my vanity. ÂÂ When I was younger I was much preoccupied with making my hair attractively arranged along with having makeup on when I went out. ÂÂ Now ÂÂ I can see the folly in this. ÂÂ This is not to say that I do not want to make myself attractive for my husband, but I try to avoid being overly concerned about my appearance. ÂÂ A difficult thing in our american society.
Oh well,  that's my 2 cents.   ÃƒÆ’‚ God bless you all here at OC.net!
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« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2005, 09:48:31 PM »

..I will agree with TomS ...

Bad move!  Cheesy
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« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2005, 10:11:59 PM »

Dont take too much offence. If you dont believe in such foolishness as requiring women to wear headscarfs, then my comments were not even directed at you.

I knew your comment wasn't directed at me.  However, I know some good people who do believe that women should cover their heads in church.  I know of some monasteries where women are required to cover their heads in church.  To suggest that these people would be more comfortable in Islam is absurd.

Quote
Though I, more so than most here, have long insisted on the importance of Culture in the Church, and the inseperable nature of the two, I will also say that Culture Changes, even Orthodox Cultures, though they may take longer to do so (for Both better and worse). Furthermore, the basis of my comments is that absolutizing of a certain culture at a certain point in time and prohibiting any evolution is not a Characteristic of Christianity, but of Islam. So if you want to spend your time making such irrelevant points pillars of your faith, please become a Moslem (or a Jew) and you'll be able to find many other people who enjoy doing this with you...Hmmm, perhaps Judaizers would be a workable polemic label for these people, I'll have to think about it Wink LOL.

I've told you this before, greekchristian, but you seem to not be able to understand people who don't think like you.  You need to learn more tolerance for people with different points of view.  No one suggested that the monks who require to cover their heads are making this a "pillar" of their faith.  They're simply following tradition and Scripture. 

Quote
You mistake Polemics for Hostility. Furthermore, Controversal and (sometimes) Scandalous may not be essential to an exchange of Ideas, but it can help getting a point 'home,' if you will more efficiently and effectively than more restrained words and, if nothing else, it certainly makes the exchange more fun.  Smiley)

I too sense hostility in what you write.  Perhaps that's colored by your other posts but I sense you have a deep-seated hostility towards people, Orthodox or not, who don't think like you. 

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« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2005, 11:48:21 PM »

I, for one, would probably feel the need to throw a fit if my priest suddenly started requiring head coverings in church. While in Mexico at Project Mexico, we were informed that headcoverings were available in the church and that Padre asked that anyone who was comfortable with wearing one should feel free to do so. The request was made in love, and all the women (minus one, who was not Orthodox) chose to wear one while at Liturgy. During our own evening prayer, without any clergy present, we didn't wear them. It was no big deal, no difference made between people who chose to wear them and ppl who didn't. If I was visiting Russia, I'd wear one. If I was visiting California, I wouldn't. It really doesn't need to be an issue.
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« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2005, 12:33:09 PM »

If I was visiting Russia, I'd wear one. If I was visiting California, I wouldn't. It really doesn't need to be an issue.

Exactly. If it is a part of the culture (which in the U.S. it is not) then you should do so out of respect.
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« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2005, 01:14:48 PM »

And if people want to make it part of American culture, that's ok too.  Because, after all, that's what America is--a place where lots of people come and bring their customs and blend them til they become part of America's customs.
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« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2005, 05:36:04 PM »

Bad move!ÂÂ  Cheesy

Dont worry, I dont like agreeing with you any more than you like me agreeing with you. Wink

And if people want to make it part of American culture, that's ok too. Because, after all, that's what America is--a place where lots of people come and bring their customs and blend them til they become part of America's customs.

Why did I have such a difficult time getting this point accross when we were discussing the language issue? Anyway, I'm glad someone finally got it. But my point was that Orthodox Cultures are changing as well, in many Orthodox Countries most women under 50 will not wear headscarfs...I cant speak for Russia, but if they still insist on this custom, I wouldn't be too surprised, due to unfortunate social conditions in the 20th Century they still seem, in many of their customs, to be stuck in the 19th Century...but things in Russia are changing.
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« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2005, 06:34:01 PM »

Because language blends into a language just the same as other customs--it doesn't remain separate. We use greek words as part of English--they are used within the English context and have meaning in English. It's not the same as maintaining a foreign language with no meaning in English. I'm well aware that we have no official language, however, Americans become part of America mainly through language. If you're not speaking/learning English or in some cases, Spanish, you're not blending into America. 
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« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2005, 07:06:25 PM »

Don't be an ηλίθιος, GreekisPagan.  Should I wear a t-shirt and shorts to Church because that is the trend (especially when it is 45 C / 110 F+  outside)?  Should a women were a super short micro skirt and midrift, since that is the common clothing of the people?  That is the logic you are using. 
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« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2005, 07:10:02 PM »

Don't be an ηλίθιος, GreekisPagan.ÂÂ  Should I wear a t-shirt and shorts to Church because that is the trend (especially when it is 45 C / 110 F+ÂÂ  outside)?ÂÂ  Should a women were a super short micro skirt and midrift, since that is the common clothing of the people?ÂÂ  That is the logic you are using.ÂÂ  

Maybe in getting with the times he wants the Russian Church to stop having regular Confession, to start making the services shorter, to stop the priests from wearing proper clerical clothing and having beards and also for them to stop standing for all of Liturgy too?

Or maybe he just wants them to get organs? :-P

Sorry GiP, but renovationism has already been declared heretical by the Orthodox Church before the evil Communist revolution.
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« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2005, 08:22:51 PM »

Don't be an ηλίθιος, GreekisPagan.ÂÂ  Should I wear a t-shirt and shorts to Church because that is the trend (especially when it is 45 C / 110 F+ÂÂ  outside)?ÂÂ  Should a women were a super short micro skirt and midrift, since that is the common clothing of the people?ÂÂ  That is the logic you are using.ÂÂ  

Rest assured Imam Silouan, my IQ is well over 20. And as great as I think it would be wonderful for everyone to come to Church dressed as they did in the 6th Century (Or we could go to Church in the Togas that were so common amongst the Upper Class and Senators) it's simply not something that should be demanded of the laity. Vestments are for the Clergy, let the laity wear what they typically wear in society.

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6573.msg85854#msg85854 date=1120518602]
Maybe in getting with the times he wants the Russian Church to stop having regular Confession,
[/quote]

Not Necessicarily, but I do wish they would stop making it a prerequesite for Communion, being a prep-talk for the Eucharist was neither the purpose nor intent of the Holy Sacrament of Confession and Reconciliation.

Quote
to start making the services shorter,

Depending on the circumstances, at times this may be prudent.

Quote
to stop the priests from wearing proper clerical clothing and having beards and also for them to stop standing for all of Liturgy too?

Whether or not priests need beards is almost as absurd an argument as how long they should be (though not quite) (with that said, it's a fun topic for polemics against the west...one I try to bring up at least in passing to score points Wink ). But concerning the conduct and apperance of the Priest, he is a Priest, not a layman. He is to be held to a different standard and there are different expectations of him. Attention to minor detail in the liturgy and various other ecclesiastical customs is, in large part, the Priest's Job...when you start making the entire community follow minor and insignificant customs as though they were our most sublime dogmas you end up with a cult.

Quote
Or maybe he just wants them to get organs? :-P

Nah, they just dont go with Byzantine Music...no matter how hard people try. And the more westernized music they do work with just doesnt go with the Byzantine Services.

Quote
Sorry GiP, but renovationism has already been declared heretical by the Orthodox Church before the evil Communist revolution.

So my suggestion that requiring women wear headscarves is unacceptable in our current social context is heretical? I beseech thee most wise and holy teacher, present unto me thy Holy Synod by which I am condemned.
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« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2005, 01:09:20 AM »

Still going back to Islam argument, that anyone who doesn't agree with must be muslim?  Which is ironic since I never even stated my position on matter of headscarves, only that your argument against them has holes in it.  But I guess simply questioning your authority makes me a muslim.   

All I am doing is saying that your argument when taken to its logical conclusion is dangerous.  And notice how I can say that I disagree with your stance without calling you a non-Christian. 
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« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2005, 02:32:11 AM »

Still going back to Islam argument, that anyone who doesn't agree with must be muslim?  Which is ironic since I never even stated my position on matter of headscarves, only that your argument against them has holes in it.  But I guess simply questioning your authority makes me a muslim.  ÃƒÆ’‚Â

All I am doing is saying that your argument when taken to its logical conclusion is dangerous.ÂÂ  And notice how I can say that I disagree with your stance without calling you a non-Christian.ÂÂ  

Oh, Silouan, dont take to much offence to me using the title 'imam' infront of your name...it was in response to you calling me, 'GreekisPagan' Wink

Modesty is certainly virtuous for everyone...but I simply do not see how headscarves are necessary for practicing of modesty.
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« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2005, 02:38:20 AM »

Ask the greek yia-yias in the old country with their headscarves 24/7. They'll tell you.
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« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2005, 02:48:02 AM »

GreekisPagan is a refrence to the fact that Greece was one of the centers of Paganism in the ancient world, an argument against saying Greek culture is inherently Christian... not saying that you are pagan.  If you thought I was calling you a pagan, I am not.  If your first name is "Greek" and you meant your username here as a personal thing, then I could understand you thinking I meant you were a pagan.  Being that you have made us all aware often serveral times in a single post that you are under the jurisdiction of the EP, I do not question your Orthodoxy.

Quote
Modesty is certainly virtuous for everyone...but I simply do not see how headscarves are necessary for practicing of modesty.

Then a better argument would be that headcoverings do not contribute to modesty because of A, B and C.  But playing the pop culture card is an invitation to more trouble down the road.  But I agree that in the big scheme of things it is not the most important issue confronting Orthodoxy at the moment. ÂÂ
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« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2005, 09:14:13 AM »

A question might be why would 'most women' not be comfortable wearing a head covering? Dressing in a moderate and modest fashion in church is surely done to honour Him who we come to worship, and not to conform to the 'tutting' person behind us?
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« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2005, 12:35:15 PM »

Because in America, dressing in moderate and modest fashion does not necessarily include headcoverings.
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« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2005, 06:45:32 PM »

"Because in America......."

Many things may be the 'norm' in America, but I am not sure how that influences things. Christianity is not about conforming to the social mores of this or that place in this or that era. Humility might have a greater call on those who wish to embrace Him, surely? Modesty of appearance is important whether one is a man, woman or child but is not about exhibitionism either. The sense I appear to get from some postings here is an atmosphere of either great and destructive sarcasm or this is how we do it here and Christianity too will conform too. Is this pride or misplaced nationalism, something I thought the ethnic and wannabe ethnics were so hung up on?
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« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2005, 07:36:16 PM »

Nope, but I think it is the awareness that Christianity, the kind that doesn't conform to what are wishes are, doesn't necessarily include clothing choices.
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« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2005, 07:47:58 PM »

As an interesting side note of irony.... someone who resfuses to use modern English grammar and spelling rules insists that headscarves shouldn't be worn because they aren't American in terms of modesty. 
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« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2005, 08:38:12 PM »

As an interesting side note of irony.... someone who resfuses to use modern English grammar and spelling rules insists that headscarves shouldn't be worn because they aren't American in terms of modesty.ÂÂ  

I tend to be quite traditional in Personal Preferences, I like traditional Grammar, I like traditional linguistic styles, my tastes in Clothing are fairly conservative. Ask any of my friends from Holy Cross on this board, you'll VERY Rarely see me in Jeans (so rarely the two times I wore them over the course of the last two years at School I received multiple comments on it both times), and I never wear Shorts; I never used to wear T-Shirts, but now I have a Linux T-Shirt that I tend to wear once a Month or so on a weekend.

But with that said, while I want to be free to follow my personal preferences on these accidentals; I also want others to be free to follow their personal preferences.
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« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2005, 08:47:47 PM »

Just be aware that your personal preferences make your posts unreadable to my eyes and actually serve to lessen your arguments by appearing so. The inner voice that reads "out loud" in my head when I read cannot speak when having to "emphasize" so many words. It gives an air of the absurd to what you're saying, which certainly cannot help when you wish to make a serious argument. You may not care what I go through when I read what you post, but many others seem to agree that it makes things difficult. Just something to consider.
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« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2005, 07:24:45 AM »

A couple of observations if I may.

The abandoning of headgear by women is not an AMERICAN phenomena but one that may be observed across Europe and the Middle East.

Personal Preference could be a euphemism for pride perhaps? Certainly I have frequently observed men and women whose apparel can hardly be described as modest, but then they might too respond with the answer it is their personal preference. And those who commit every sin and vice or subscribe to any and every heresy might also answer is it my personal preference.

I had thought that taking up the cross was to lay aside one's 'personal preferences' or is Orthodox Christianity simply another example of 'pick and mix' religion rather than The Truth, The Way and The Light?
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« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2005, 01:41:17 PM »

Yea, but then you're assigning a sin to someone whose inner workings you don't know and judging them for it. Modes of dress have changed in American, Europe, and other places too. We're not wearing togas or robes any more. oooooh, scary. What pride.

Like was said before--you got a wife? you can discuss it with her. Otherwise, keep your eyes on your own salvation and not the heads of any women around you. It's better for you spiritually.
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« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2005, 02:25:30 PM »

A couple of observations if I may.

The abandoning of headgear by women is not an AMERICAN phenomena but one that may be observed across Europe and the Middle East.

Thank You for making a point that I have been making; it's not an American innovention, but a Cultural change throughout the world, Orthodox and Heterodox.

Quote
Personal Preference could be a euphemism for pride perhaps? Certainly I have frequently observed men and women whose apparel can hardly be described as modest, but then they might too respond with the answer it is their personal preference. And those who commit every sin and vice or subscribe to any and every heresy might also answer is it my personal preference.

Didn't I mention something about accidentals in my previous post? When I go to the trouble of undermining a rebuttal in my original argument one could at least take that into account. Furthermore, if you actually observe communities where no one wears a headscarf, compared to communities where they are required, in the former they are simply not an issue, they are irrelevant; in the latter, however, they are a significant issue, I question whether the community in which such issues are not even considered is guilty of pride, or the legalistic communities who force the issue are the prideful and self-righteous ones.

Quote
I had thought that taking up the cross was to lay aside one's 'personal preferences' or is Orthodox Christianity simply another example of 'pick and mix' religion rather than The Truth, The Way and The Light?

I cannot agree more, we MUST Maintain the culture of the 4th century without evolution or change, for to do otherwise is to guide the Church into Apostasy. One of my pet peeves are men who wear pants to Church, can you believe the Pride, Arrogance, and Debauchery of such sinners? They mock God and the Customs of the Holy Church by not having enough decency to throw on a proper Robe, but rather deign to show off their bodies in the House of God, as though it were a brothel and den of iniquity, existing for nothing beyond the indulgance of the passions, by wearing clothing that does not drape over them and hide the form of bodies, but rather accents it. Such immorality would be expected amongst the godless pagans, but not even they wore such provocative clothing; verily, the men of our day have surpassed even the pagans of old in debauchery, immorality, and the indulgance of passions.  Surely in this evil day of such godlessness and immodesty, amongst so-called righteous Men, all decency and virtue have left this world. The Eschaton must Surely be at Hand!!! Let us cast the sinful wearers of pants from the Churches and commend their souls to Lucifer, whom they willingly serve, that they may spend all of eternity tormented by the demons and fire of Hell; by thus, and by thus only, may the Orthodoxy of the Church and the Will of the Fathers and the Example of Christ be preserved!

(To be read as Patrick Henry's 'Liberty or Death' speech, starting in a normal but emphatic voice and ending very loudly and emphatic, with a gradual climb in tone and volume...and after 'Orthodoxy of the Church,' 'Will of the Fathers,' and 'Example of Christ' the podium/table/desk (or better yet, Bible) should be pounded, then 'preserved' should be shouted at the top of ones lungs with a firm thumping of the bible (or podium/table/desk if a Bible is not available to thump) Wink )
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« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2005, 02:57:01 PM »

I cannot agree more, we MUST Maintain the culture of the 4th century without evolution or change, for to do otherwise is to guide the Church into Apostasy.

Better lay off this whole internet thing, then, huh? Roll Eyes
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« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2005, 04:14:00 PM »

Reading my post I am only aware that I have observed the dress of some is immodest. This is not ascribing a 'sin' but a simple observation. Just as I suspect every single person in every single church makes a number of observations during the course of any visit anywhere. A subject has been raised here and comments by implication invited on a subject, i.e. headscarves. I will try to take the advice on attending to my own salvation but again the 'swipe' makes a presumption that I or others who comment are not attending.

Nor did I in anyway seek to imply a return to some historic dress code, indeed a reading of my previous post should have made that clear.

As for the sarcasm, why come here to a Christian sight if you feel this a means of sharing with others?
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« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2005, 04:16:24 PM »

Yea, I think it's the implication that not wearing headgear equals immodest dress. But eh!
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« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2005, 04:32:38 PM »

Dear Brothers and Sisters,
I feel that people ought to lay off of the sarcasm with StephenG.  This is a forum where people (mostly christians) come to offer their views on said subjects.  Choirfiend,  I am a woman who happens to wear a scarf in church, however I do not see that a man should be denied the ability to comment on modesty for men AND women.  Obviously for you, you feel your head need not be covered; which is fine.  But you need to realize that there are others who feel otherwise.  For some women (including myself) wearing a head covering is a sign of respect when in the house of God (especially since His holy Body and Blood is on the altar).  Walking around on the street I leave my head uncovered...but when I walk into church I feel a need to offer as much deference and respect  to my Lord as is possible for this sinful woman.   Pray for me.
in all sincerity,   Juliana
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« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2005, 04:52:12 PM »

Oh, I'm totally on your side. Wear your headcovering and let no one denigrate you for it. But also let not someone say that not wearing a headcovering is immodest. Modesty is truely a trait that has as much to do with the heart as it does with the skin. Headcoverings were never a part of any parish I have attended. I do not wear one on a regular basis but I have worn them when requested to. Whether or not someone wears one is simply not an issue in my life; those who make it an issue, who criticize others for it, cause many distress and few comfort.
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« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2005, 05:16:50 PM »


Jennifer,  Thank you for the clarification.  May God bless you and your family!    Smiley   Juliana
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« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2005, 06:08:48 PM »

Sarcasm? Who said anything about sarcasm? I was dead serious.


Seriously though, dont take anything you read on an internet message board too seriously, it's all done in good fun (usually) Wink
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« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2005, 06:48:50 PM »

Maybe we shold start having our women wear biking helmets instead.  Thats trendy.  Roll Eyes Undecided Wink

Truly, if a woman wants to wear one, it's cool.  If she dont, 's all good.  Just make sure it's quo where you go.

Peace.

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« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2005, 06:59:48 PM »

Juliana,

I think you were speaking to me, but I'm not Jennifer:) Thanks though.  Btw, I love your name, it's on my list of girls names Smiley (Not that I am having children any time soon) Some people see sarcasm, I see humor (I'm very sarcastic, though).
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« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2005, 08:08:17 PM »

Quote
Some people see sarcasm, I see humor (I'm very sarcastic, though).

When I read GiC's pants rant, I actually *did* LOL.

It was (by my low standards Wink) a very humorous---and yet thought provoking---post.
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« Reply #52 on: July 16, 2005, 11:30:15 PM »

Choirfiend,   
   Whoops!  The earlier message was intended for you...my brain misfired.  Tongue  My father named all the girls in my family (my sisters names are Candace and Deirdre) and my mother named all the boys.  By the way, would you mind revealing your name?  It seems odd to call you CF.
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« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2005, 03:32:18 AM »

But I like CF.....I had another nickname on another forum a long time ago that was CW....it makes me feel loved:)
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« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2005, 06:53:53 PM »

Among other things I referred to men and women and the need for worshippers to dress modestly. Immodest dress in church has sadly become more and more common. So my point certainly went a little further than headscarves but I will stick to my point, i.e. if personal preference is the hallmark were then is the boundary? As to the tendency among a small group to dress in what might not unreasonably be regarded as eccentric, I hold no brief for this whatsoever.

As to the wearing of a toga, I assume the 'witty' contributor meant a 'tunica'? That would certainly make heads turn. Hardly appropriate in church, at a fancy dress party maybe!

I had came to this forum to learn, but on first acquaintance it appears this might be a little misplaced.
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« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2005, 08:37:17 PM »

As to the wearing of a toga, I assume the 'witty' contributor meant a 'tunica'? That would certainly make heads turn. Hardly appropriate in church, at a fancy dress party maybe!

And in most Orthodox Churches I've been to, wearing a headscarf would certainly make heads turn, and comments would be made under hushed voices...especially if the woman wearing it was under 60.
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« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2005, 11:54:02 AM »

Oh, dear, in innocence I enter a thread and then things get a little excitable.

First, perhaps in the beginning I failed to make myself clear. The word 'modest' is not the same as the word indecent. Indeed in the modest dictionary I keep by the PC the word's meaning is listed as

- having a humble opion of oneself or one's accomplishments

- not extreme or excessive

- not ostentatious or pretentious

- shy or easily embarassed

- not revealing much of the body: a modest dress

In many countries, and not just the USA, the clothing worn in church by some, whether male or female, might hardly be described as modest if reference might be made to the above definitions of the word. In some people appear to 'ape' a fashion they imagine Russian peasants wore in the 1800s(?), in others the clothing reveals or clings excessively. In yet others the clothes are quite literally ostentatious.

Overtight or scimpy clothes render the making of bows or prostrations difficult, impossible or probably indecent. And should we dress modestly for Him to whom we have drawn near to worship or to meet with the approval of the fashion sense of our peers? On that basis perhaps we should restrict our sins to those which meet with the approval too of them?

There has been a moving away over some years from a more modest appearance in church I believe. Where did it start? A reaction in some places to the pressures on women by Muslim zealots, or with initially the leaving off of headcoverings by women and jackets by the men?

I write none of this to be provocative or to judge. Because judgement is reserved to Him who call all to judgement, but given the topic of headscarves was raised and then broadened a little it appeared a reasonable place in which to post. I believe that if we were invited to the White House or some such place we would take great care, and read the dress code guidelines with singular care; and yet we dare to enter before Him who created all and  dress according to our personal preference, preferring the social mores of the society around us and our peers to a Christian response.

Others may feel differently, I acknowledge. But giving the 'butt out, buster' messaage and heavy sarcasm is okay but forgive me if I take time to adjust.
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« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2010, 04:05:52 PM »

I noticed that this is an 'old' topic...and I'm new to the group (relatively), but I'd like to make a comment that even though I'm normally a person (older--I'm 64) who considers herself to be modern, I just love the idea of wearing a head scarf to church.  It feels very reverant to do so. Perhaps it's because I was raised a Roman Catholic during the 1950's and women always covered their heads.    Jennifer, if you are still here, I'd like to say that I was/am happy to see this as a topic because I just purchased some headscarves and have to figure out how to tie them.  When I was very little and living in Canada, it was fashionable to wear a headscarf tied under the chin and I might just still wear the scarves that way (it's also 'Russian style').  By the way, I'm ROCOR, so it's highly encouraged for women to wear head scarves.  The priest at my Church also suggests mantilla's (sp?) which is also a hold-over from my Catholic days.
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« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2010, 05:48:08 PM »

Man, where can I get some layman's robes?

I'm such a sinner for wearing jeans to my Antiochian Church!

Seriously though, the option would be nice.
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« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2010, 05:54:18 PM »

I noticed that this is an 'old' topic...and I'm new to the group (relatively), but I'd like to make a comment that even though I'm normally a person (older--I'm 64) who considers herself to be modern, I just love the idea of wearing a head scarf to church.  It feels very reverant to do so. Perhaps it's because I was raised a Roman Catholic during the 1950's and women always covered their heads.    Jennifer, if you are still here, I'd like to say that I was/am happy to see this as a topic because I just purchased some headscarves and have to figure out how to tie them.  When I was very little and living in Canada, it was fashionable to wear a headscarf tied under the chin and I might just still wear the scarves that way (it's also 'Russian style').  By the way, I'm ROCOR, so it's highly encouraged for women to wear head scarves.  The priest at my Church also suggests mantilla's (sp?) which is also a hold-over from my Catholic days.

Welcome to the forum, chatelaa! I love wearing headscarves too, and they're so pretty tied under the chin. I always see it as a blessing that our Church continues on with this wonderful tradition!
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« Reply #60 on: April 30, 2010, 06:06:46 PM »

Oh, dear, in innocence I enter a thread and then things get a little excitable.

First, perhaps in the beginning I failed to make myself clear. The word 'modest' is not the same as the word indecent. Indeed in the modest dictionary I keep by the PC the word's meaning is listed as

- having a humble opion of oneself or one's accomplishments

- not extreme or excessive

- not ostentatious or pretentious

- shy or easily embarassed

- not revealing much of the body: a modest dress

In many countries, and not just the USA, the clothing worn in church by some, whether male or female, might hardly be described as modest if reference might be made to the above definitions of the word. In some people appear to 'ape' a fashion they imagine Russian peasants wore in the 1800s(?), in others the clothing reveals or clings excessively. In yet others the clothes are quite literally ostentatious.

Overtight or scimpy clothes render the making of bows or prostrations difficult, impossible or probably indecent. And should we dress modestly for Him to whom we have drawn near to worship or to meet with the approval of the fashion sense of our peers? On that basis perhaps we should restrict our sins to those which meet with the approval too of them?

There has been a moving away over some years from a more modest appearance in church I believe. Where did it start? A reaction in some places to the pressures on women by Muslim zealots, or with initially the leaving off of headcoverings by women and jackets by the men?

I write none of this to be provocative or to judge. Because judgement is reserved to Him who call all to judgement, but given the topic of headscarves was raised and then broadened a little it appeared a reasonable place in which to post. I believe that if we were invited to the White House or some such place we would take great care, and read the dress code guidelines with singular care; and yet we dare to enter before Him who created all and  dress according to our personal preference, preferring the social mores of the society around us and our peers to a Christian response.

Others may feel differently, I acknowledge. But giving the 'butt out, buster' messaage and heavy sarcasm is okay but forgive me if I take time to adjust.

I am with you on this. "Modesty" is key to our appearance and conduct, especially in Church. The headscarf issue is only a minor part of the struggle to be or become modest. However, a bigger problem is that our current culture encourages us to be individualistic, which is not such a bad thing in itself, but to the point of becoming overly defensive to any real or perceived criticism.
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