Author Topic: I present to you (perhaps again) OrthodoxAndGay.com  (Read 8267 times)

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Offline FinnJames

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Re: I present to you (perhaps again) OrthodoxAndGay.com
« Reply #45 on: July 22, 2015, 12:48:16 AM »
The escalation of this whole gay wedding photo/cake/pizza business into the courts in the US and Northern Ireland seems to me to be grounded more in a lack of civility than in either gay or religious rights (or 'rights'). What well-mannered business provider is going to refuse service and then lecture the would-be client about how sinful they are? Wouldn't it be more polite to apologize for being unable to provide the service and give the client the address of someone who can? I didn't take the appliance repairman I usually use to court when he couldn't come out and look at our washer, I phoned the firm he directed me to and got good service. The result was three parties going away happy.

Offline NicholasMyra

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Re: I present to you (perhaps again) OrthodoxAndGay.com
« Reply #46 on: July 22, 2015, 01:50:24 AM »
Writing on cakes is tacky anyway.
Quote from: Fr. Thomas Hopko, dystopian parable of the prodigal son
...you can imagine so-called healing services of the pigpen. The books that could be written, you know: Life in the Pigpen. How to Cope in the Pigpen. Being Happy in the Pigpen. Surviving in the Pigpen. And then there could be counselling, for people who feel unhappy in the pigpen, to try to get them to come to terms with the pigpen, and to accept the pigpen.

Offline Alpo

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Re: I present to you (perhaps again) OrthodoxAndGay.com
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2015, 04:14:54 AM »
So I am simply calling for the Church to look again at the texts in question in order to be sure that what is being delivered is indeed Christ's message as it applies to a contemporary rather than an ancient context. Biblical scholarship has moved on since the days of the Fathers, and though Robert A.J. Gagnon may well be the only living authority your priest turns to on homosexuality and the Bible, his is not the final word on the subject.

Do you believe that there's nothing in common between biblical texts and modern monogamous homosexual relationship?

I was asked to correct the English in a theology thesis on the topic and on the basis of what I read there I would say (did say) that the Orthodox Church ought to re-evaluate the biblical and patristic texts on which Church teachings on homosexuality are based, looking at them in the light of contemporary scholarship. Then it will be up to the bishops to decide how to proceed.

I would be interested to read the thesis in case it's somewhere available. Anyway, IMO this question should be settles by scientific exegetics. Even if some respected scholars were arguing that the biblical passages were historically referring to prostitution etc. it doesn't really matter as the Church doesn't employ scientific exegetics. Of course the arguments need to be addressed but the Church's perspective is the whole Tradition instead of tiny historical bits.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 04:16:46 AM by Alpo »
I just need to find out how to say it in Slavonic!

Offline Marc1152

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Re: I present to you (perhaps again) OrthodoxAndGay.com
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2015, 10:08:14 AM »
^ And before the progressives get all "you have to serve everyone," about this, a part of Christian faith is the belief that one should not participate or directly profit form evil. These Christians believe that entering into homosexual "marriages" is evil, and therefore, their faith compels them not to participate.

This is totally unrelated to the idea of whether or not a person should change a gay person's oil or serve them at a restaurant, because those things have nothing to do with one's Christian faith.

I would also add that there is a difference between "We won't make a cake for a gay wedding" is different from "We won't serve gay people at all in this establishment."

That is why the Indiana law was entirely fair. No one should be ( or was)  denied a slice of pizza at a restaurant.. No one should be denied renting an apartment etc.. But something like participating in a celebration of a homosexual marriage crosses the line.

The law says that a person's well established religious beliefs have to be SUBSTANTIALLY IMPEDED. And even then all that happens is the the matter goes to a judge to decide..
Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm

Offline Papist

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Re: I present to you (perhaps again) OrthodoxAndGay.com
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2015, 11:05:16 AM »
So I am simply calling for the Church to look again at the texts in question in order to be sure that what is being delivered is indeed Christ's message as it applies to a contemporary rather than an ancient context. Biblical scholarship has moved on since the days of the Fathers, and though Robert A.J. Gagnon may well be the only living authority your priest turns to on homosexuality and the Bible, his is not the final word on the subject.

Do you believe that there's nothing in common between biblical texts and modern monogamous homosexual relationship?

I was asked to correct the English in a theology thesis on the topic and on the basis of what I read there I would say (did say) that the Orthodox Church ought to re-evaluate the biblical and patristic texts on which Church teachings on homosexuality are based, looking at them in the light of contemporary scholarship. Then it will be up to the bishops to decide how to proceed.

There is actually a fairly large amount of scholarly biblical criticism which suggests that the biblical prohibitions were against probably passive anal sex in pagan temple cult prostitution, homosexual rape, and the like. That most (all?) of these works were written by scholars who are known or suspected to be homosexual has led many to ignore them out of hand since the authors 'must' be biased, have an axe to grind, be misinterpreting facts in a self-serving manner, etc. when they deviate from traditionally held opinions.

On the other hand--and I think this too is relevant--I know of no serious scholarly biblical criticism which suggests that there was any monogamous long-term committed same-sex pair in the scriptures equivalent to, say, my own 40-year-long partnership or the partnerships of the (ex?)Orthodox gays and lesbians I have corresponded with who were either banished from their church by the priest, or are agonizing over whether to lie about their partner in confession, or though they would like to, have simply stopped coming to church because it's all too psychologically taxing.


Orthodox gays and lesbians I have corresponded with who were either banished from their church by the priest, or are agonizing over whether to lie about their partner in confession, or though they would like to, have simply stopped coming to church because it's all too psychologically taxing.

 In the book "A Few Good Men" published ten or fifteen years ago the author concluded that about 48% of Roman Catholic Priests were Gay... Clearly they are comfortable in Church.

What you are talking about are homosexuals who are steadfast that the Church conform to them rather than they conform to the Church, which forbids homosexual sex. Yes, that must be taxing.

I have known several Orthodox people who are not so recalcitrant and are struggling though their sexual desires. They are not so taxed as to stop going to Church.. No one said it would be easy. Christ saves us from our sins, not in our sins.. Real Christianity demands that we all change...

With that said, some people combine Church teaching with common bigotry. We also need to know where that line is and not cross it.

Great post!
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: I present to you (perhaps again) OrthodoxAndGay.com
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2015, 11:07:26 AM »
The escalation of this whole gay wedding photo/cake/pizza business into the courts in the US and Northern Ireland seems to me to be grounded more in a lack of civility than in either gay or religious rights (or 'rights'). What well-mannered business provider is going to refuse service and then lecture the would-be client about how sinful they are? Wouldn't it be more polite to apologize for being unable to provide the service and give the client the address of someone who can? I didn't take the appliance repairman I usually use to court when he couldn't come out and look at our washer, I phoned the firm he directed me to and got good service. The result was three parties going away happy.

Now, I think what he repair man did should be illegal. You didn't ask him to directly profit from or participate in your homosexual marriage. Having a washing machine is unrelated to homosexuality. It's just a basic need we all have in civil society. That is qualitatively different from a situation in which a baker or wedding caterer is asked to participate in what is essentially a celebration of homosexuality.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline Papist

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Re: I present to you (perhaps again) OrthodoxAndGay.com
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2015, 11:08:00 AM »
^ And before the progressives get all "you have to serve everyone," about this, a part of Christian faith is the belief that one should not participate or directly profit form evil. These Christians believe that entering into homosexual "marriages" is evil, and therefore, their faith compels them not to participate.

This is totally unrelated to the idea of whether or not a person should change a gay person's oil or serve them at a restaurant, because those things have nothing to do with one's Christian faith.

I would also add that there is a difference between "We won't make a cake for a gay wedding" is different from "We won't serve gay people at all in this establishment."

That is why the Indiana law was entirely fair. No one should be ( or was)  denied a slice of pizza at a restaurant.. No one should be denied renting an apartment etc.. But something like participating in a celebration of a homosexual marriage crosses the line.

The law says that a person's well established religious beliefs have to be SUBSTANTIALLY IMPEDED. And even then all that happens is the the matter goes to a judge to decide..

We agree.
"For, by its immensity, the divine substance surpasses every form that our intellect reaches. Thus we are unable to apprehend it by knowing what it is. Yet we are able to have some knowledge of it by knowing what it is not." - St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa contra gentiles, I, 14.

Offline recent convert

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Re: I present to you (perhaps again) OrthodoxAndGay.com
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2015, 01:29:57 PM »
It sounds agenda driven from the onset:

Being gay is a gift of God, the Creator. Therefore expressing that gift in a healthy and mature relationship is also blessed by God.

http://www.orthodoxandgay.com/

This is not struggling with SSA but affirming SSA. More agenda driven sin cloaked under a false redefinition of the humanity of Christ preaching a false gospel.

I often wonder if God finds homosexuality as much of an abomination as some of the posters on OrthodoxChristianity.net clearly do. Where are the people C)hristian enough to actually get to know some committed gay/lesbian couples and, if they are caring for them, the children or parents they are giving a home to? If you don't find them standing next to you on Sunday, consider that it may be because you've browbeaten them into silence or driven them out; you have your agenda, too, and you think God is on your side. Consider the possibility that unlike you, He doesn't take sides.

This is the assumption of preemptive "compassion" so prevalent today. A simple observation of what is sin and rejecting an opinion that perpetuates it is assumed to be rendered by a troglodyte just itchin' to stone an easy victim. We all have to share our feelings instead of knowing what we need to repent of. Well I guess I better state my "feelings" as a single, heterosexual who struggles with adultery (Matthew5:27-29) and I better browbeat my fellow parishioners to share my "feelings" -about matters that traditionally should be confessed to a priest.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2015, 01:32:49 PM by recent convert »
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