Author Topic: Hell.......  (Read 6652 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Hell.......
« on: July 12, 2015, 09:38:09 PM »
What is it really? Am I going there? If not me, who? What is Orthodoxy's position on this? Or any other faith that people who post on here belong to. Is there a lot of people in hell now?

According to Fatima, there's tons of souls burning and being tortured in hell, mostly for "sins of the flesh".

But why? Why do people have to suffer for eternity for what was done for possibly just a few decades down here on Earth?

Especially for sins that we are naturally inclined to commit because the "flesh is weak".

Eternal damnation is kind of a hard concept sometimes, just like heaven/paradise I suppose.

What is hell really?

Need some insight.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2015, 09:49:18 PM »
You're absolutely right.  It is a very difficult concept to understand.  A lot of the debate centers on a few things:

1.  What is "eternal"?
2.  Is it unfair or are we just being emotional in our inability to understand the infinite justice of God?
3.  Can "repentance" or our prayers save those from hell?
4.  What is "hell" exactly?  Is it the love of God really burning those who continually reject God or a true punishment for those who wish to have comfort, as the parable of the rich man and Lazarus indicates?

Some other questions that might need to be considered is what is the state of those souls without flesh and then in the general resurrection, if this state changes in such a manner that repentance is possible?

These are all questions, I think, not sufficiently answered by the Church fathers, and it becomes such a great mystery that leads one to think we should strive to do God's will just because we should strive a loving relationship with God.  The more we do so, the more hell (or heaven frankly) becomes more of an afterthought.  Some people need those "afterthoughts" maybe for an initial push (and this is not intended to take away the truth of those realities), but it is encouraged that if you can reach such a level of spirituality where these "afterthoughts" should not matter.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 09:50:00 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2015, 09:57:35 PM »
The answer to most of these questions are "we don't know". The best thing to do is to follow the words of St. Silouan: "Keep thy mind in hell, and despair not."
God bless!

Offline wainscottbl

  • Swine of the Sheep
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,943
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2015, 10:54:46 PM »
What is it really? Am I going there? If not me, who? What is Orthodoxy's position on this? Or any other faith that people who post on here belong to. Is there a lot of people in hell now?

According to Fatima, there's tons of souls burning and being tortured in hell, mostly for "sins of the flesh".

But why? Why do people have to suffer for eternity for what was done for possibly just a few decades down here on Earth?

Especially for sins that we are naturally inclined to commit because the "flesh is weak".

Eternal damnation is kind of a hard concept sometimes, just like heaven/paradise I suppose.

What is hell really?

Need some insight.


Anyway

1. Eternal is just that. Forever, without end. But some souls may be redeemed from hell before the Last Judgment, or at the Last Judgment. That is why the dead are prayed for. Orthodox do not have Purgatory. Another reason they are prayed for is for their particular judgment. The nature of this is not sure. There is some patristic believe of a purging, but it is not purgatory. It does not involve paying debts, etc. But hell is forever, but not for everyone in other words. Look up Father Seraphim Rose.

2. It's fine to not understand. It is fine to even wish everyone to be saved. Just don't say everyone WILL be saved, because that heresy was condemned. Anyway, that's complicated.

3. As for the whole justice vs mercy, and what hell is like. Orthodoxy today seems to be fond of a non-literal fire belief. This has patristic support. The idea is that hell is the torment of the condemned by his own choice, and that the fire is the love of God, and despising it. Because at the hour of death the person cannot save themselves anymore. Their will is set. But they can be prayed for, as I said in number 1.

Anyway, this is not dogma, no matter what people tell you. It's simply not. I prefer this school, but there is an ORTHODOX school that says the fire is literal. Modernist zealots pretty much teach the non-literal fire as dogma. Too much patristic support of real fire. Neither is doctrine. So be careful what you read. I've been blessed to have good friends to teach me and a mind that can discern nonsense, thanks to Scholasticism. These modernists who teach as dogma the non-literal fire are to be avoided. Avoid reading too many blogs, etc. There are some good groups on Facebook to ask such questions in. I am not on FB right now but you can find them. A couple are

1. Ask An Orthodox Priest
2. Ask About the Orthodox Faith
3. Traditional Orthodoxy (Canonical)
4. Toll-Houses [this one is controversial, but it will allow for a more solid discussion of the afterlife]

I think the non-literal fire is what hell is like because I cannot imagine a loving God tormenting souls with actual fire, but I can imagine him allowing them to torment themselves with their own sins. And to be tormented by demons because they chose their company.
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
                                                             -Aristotle



Mor Ephrem, section moderator[/b][/color]

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2015, 11:09:14 PM »
The answer to most of these questions are "we don't know". The best thing to do is to follow the words of St. Silouan: "Keep thy mind in hell, and despair not."

I do not like that expression; I do not like it at all!

How can one be in hell and not despair.

Instead of thinking of hell, think of God. Pray to God, and let one's life be always in God.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline wainscottbl

  • Swine of the Sheep
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,943
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2015, 11:12:09 PM »
The answer to most of these questions are "we don't know". The best thing to do is to follow the words of St. Silouan: "Keep thy mind in hell, and despair not."

I do not like that expression; I do not like it at all!

How can one be in hell and not despair.

Instead of thinking of hell, think of God. Pray to God, and let one's life be always in God.

I think it means always keep your mind on hell, but to not despair of God's mercy.
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
                                                             -Aristotle



Mor Ephrem, section moderator[/b][/color]

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2015, 11:19:59 PM »
The answer to most of these questions are "we don't know". The best thing to do is to follow the words of St. Silouan: "Keep thy mind in hell, and despair not."

I do not like that expression; I do not like it at all!

How can one be in hell and not despair.

Instead of thinking of hell, think of God. Pray to God, and let one's life be always in God.

I think it means always keep your mind on hell, but to not despair of God's mercy.

It is still a very bad expression. I still dislike it.
Besides, my priest has spoken saying not to read those writings.
Remember saints are not infallible and neither are their writings.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2015, 09:04:47 AM »
The answer to most of these questions are "we don't know". The best thing to do is to follow the words of St. Silouan: "Keep thy mind in hell, and despair not."

I do not like that expression; I do not like it at all!

How can one be in hell and not despair.

Instead of thinking of hell, think of God. Pray to God, and let one's life be always in God.

I think it means always keep your mind on hell, but to not despair of God's mercy.

It is still a very bad expression. I still dislike it.
Besides, my priest has spoken saying not to read those writings.
Remember saints are not infallible and neither are their writings.
Perhaps before disparaging it, it would be wisest to actually learn what he meant by it. St. Silouan was not talking about actual hell, he was referring to the tendency to elevate our own minds through pride, which requires self condemnation of our passions, but not to the point where we despair. Notice he does not say keep your mind "on" hell, he says keep it "in" hell.

The point St. Silouan was trying to make was that contemplating actual hell is probably not beneficial for us, but if hell is viewed as the love of God burning that which is unprepared to love Him, we must keep our mind there with an eye towards reconcilation. If you keep your mind there and despair, you cannot be reconciled.
God bless!

Offline converted viking

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 306
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2015, 09:32:03 AM »
The answer to most of these questions are "we don't know". The best thing to do is to follow the words of St. Silouan: "Keep thy mind in hell, and despair not."

I do not like that expression; I do not like it at all!

How can one be in hell and not despair.

Instead of thinking of hell, think of God. Pray to God, and let one's life be always in God.

I think it means always keep your mind on hell, but to not despair of God's mercy.

It is still a very bad expression. I still dislike it.
Besides, my priest has spoken saying not to read those writings.
Remember saints are not infallible and neither are their writings.


I agree with you Maria.   I find the expression to be rather disturbing.

Viking

Offline sakura95

  • Resident Philosonoob
  • OC.net guru
  • *******
  • Posts: 1,437
  • Faith: Orthodox seeker
  • Jurisdiction: Deanery of Great Britain and Ireland
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2015, 10:01:36 AM »
Quote
Is there a lot of people in hell now?

I don't know but if I'm not mistaken, in the EO Church, there are prayers offered to those in Hell. I think the Copts used to do this but it was removed.

Quote
Why do people have to suffer for eternity for what was done for possibly just a few decades down here on Earth?

Personally, I find myself  following Origen's own view(as presented on the SEP) that those in Hell still have the opportunity to repent. Regardless, some would be stubborn and thus would just become so brutish that they will simply suffer in their sins. At this point it's more of a hope rather than my belief that such is the actual state of affairs.

Quote
What is hell really?

Hell is the presence of God. However to those who are in a state of Sin or reject the Grace of God, such presence would amount to suffering thus becoming Hell. Again my personal hope is that souls trapped in this state still have the opportunity to turn back through God's mercy and the prayers for their souls by the Church on Earth and in Heaven.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 10:02:49 AM by sakura95 »
My Lord, My Lord, give my worthless soul the illumination of Wisdom in your mercy

Raylight

  • Guest
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2015, 11:16:09 PM »
I believe Hell is real. Unfortunately, in my Anglican Church in Canada, people rarely speak of Hell, many I assume don't believe in its existence. I find that very delusional and disturbing. It seems to be the easy way to just have our own image of God, a God of our own creation and imagination. If there is no Hell, then there is no Heaven as well. Why is it okay to say God didn't mean what He said about Hell, but He meant what He said about Heaven ?

I grew up as a Muslim. Hell in Islam is a pretty awful place. It is described in the Quran literally as place where people are thrown into, and the doors are closed. And every time people ask for water to drink, they will be given a very hot boiled water that will burn them inside out. And they are given food, which a fruit like a fire ball that will also burn them inside out. So you can imagine the horror I went through when I left Islam, I had nightmares for days because of that. I thought I will end up there. But I never felt that way with Christ. Even though I believe in Hell existence, and it is a real place. I never feared it, for some reason, I never imagined Christ to let me go to Hell. I follow Him not because I'm afraid of Hell, nor because I'm looking for Heaven, I follow Him because I love Him. This is why no matter what might seem to me as "unfair" when it comes to Hell, and even though I have family members who are not Christians. I always trust that God is Just, Christ is Fair, and therefor I trust that whatever He decides, He is just and will never make mistake or be unfair. Because of that trust, I'm not worried.

I believe in Our Lady of Fatima. There is a book about Our Lady of Fatima called Fatima For Today. I have it but I didn't read it yet.

Don't feel hopeless and put your trust in God. That He is Just, and that nobody will end up in Hell by mistake.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 11:17:38 PM by Raylight »

Offline FatherGiryus

  • Don't Ask
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,195
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2015, 10:32:59 AM »
Well, technically-speaking, 'hell' is a really imprecise term.  Kind of like 'heavens' in the Old Testament can mean air, or space, or the spiritual word.

They just kinda figured that you'd know what they were talking about.

Anyway, the Roman Catholic interpretation is far more complex and subject to so many interpretations and explanations that I don't understand entirely, so you can read through those on your own.

So, first you would want to read Prof. Constas' work (he is now the much-famed Monk Maximos of Mt. Athos now in residency at Holy Cross Seminary in Boston).  This is, by far, the most comprehensive cataloging of patristic sources on death and the afterlife, which 'hell' plugs into.

When we think of suffering after death, we must look at it as a continuation of the suffering that begin here in this life.  That's why the Fathers counsel us to treat our passions, which are internal sufferings (or perhaps sources of suffering) that we 'medicate' with sin.  Death deprives us of sin, and thus the passions torment us without the crutches we now enjoy.

When the person dies, his 'soul' or 'soul/spirit' enter into the condition of Hades (sometimes known as 'hell,' but really it just means death).  In the OT, hades was a 'pit' from which none escaped.  Christ broke down the gates of the pit leading to God, and so souls can pass through death to be alive in Him.  Those who choose not to are then tormented by their passions.  Thus, death becomes torment.

For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.  For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.  Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1TH 4:15-18)

So, whose who are alive at the Second Coming are brought up to meet Christ and join the 'victory procession' back to earth and the establishment of the New Jerusalem... and the Last Judgment.

At this point, men who have chosen to hate God and their neighbors then get the final word that, just like you can 'keep your doctor,' you can also keep your passions.  Those who repented receive mercy.

Now, the question always comes up about people who have some kind of belief in God, and perhaps a little love, but do nothing about it.

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.   For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.   Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—   each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.   If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.   If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (1CO 3:10-15)

OK, here's another EO/RC divergence: for the RCC, this became 'purgatory,' whereas the EOC sees this as the general passage of death in which the soul must finally lay aside his passions.  It is like the difference between smokers who want to quit and those who don't: death becomes the choice of either going cold turkey or simply continuing to smoke... but not being able to.

The assumption of both churches is that the living can pray for the dead and offer sacrifices on their behalf in order to 'shorten' their suffering, though through different mechanisms.  RCCs believe that the suffering is divinely imposed (assumed the dead are still as dumb as they were when they are alive), versus the EOC belief that the suffering is the natural consequence of the passions.  Either way, since the dead are dead, they cannot pray, so the prayers of the living become, as it were, the means by which the dead can indeed pray.

Then David took hold of his clothes, and rent them; and so did all the men who were with him; and they mourned and wept and fasted until evening for Saul and for Jonathan his son and for the people of the Lord and for the house of Israel, because they had fallen by the sword. (1SA 1:11-12)

The death ritual is clearly not for the living, but for those who had 'fallen by the sword' (i.e. caught in sudden death without time to repent).  Fasting is connected with repentance for sin (c.f. 2SA 12:16).

So, I hope this helps.  In short, eternal punishment is something that God works with us on.  Then again, so is Paradise in Christ...

You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2015, 10:46:52 AM »
Well, technically-speaking, 'hell' is a really imprecise term.  Kind of like 'heavens' in the Old Testament can mean air, or space, or the spiritual word.

They just kinda figured that you'd know what they were talking about.

Anyway, the Roman Catholic interpretation is far more complex and subject to so many interpretations and explanations that I don't understand entirely, so you can read through those on your own.

So, first you would want to read Prof. Constas' work (he is now the much-famed Monk Maximos of Mt. Athos now in residency at Holy Cross Seminary in Boston).  This is, by far, the most comprehensive cataloging of patristic sources on death and the afterlife, which 'hell' plugs into.

When we think of suffering after death, we must look at it as a continuation of the suffering that begin here in this life.  That's why the Fathers counsel us to treat our passions, which are internal sufferings (or perhaps sources of suffering) that we 'medicate' with sin.  Death deprives us of sin, and thus the passions torment us without the crutches we now enjoy.

When the person dies, his 'soul' or 'soul/spirit' enter into the condition of Hades (sometimes known as 'hell,' but really it just means death).  In the OT, hades was a 'pit' from which none escaped.  Christ broke down the gates of the pit leading to God, and so souls can pass through death to be alive in Him.  Those who choose not to are then tormented by their passions.  Thus, death becomes torment.

For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.  For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.  Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1TH 4:15-18)

So, whose who are alive at the Second Coming are brought up to meet Christ and join the 'victory procession' back to earth and the establishment of the New Jerusalem... and the Last Judgment.

At this point, men who have chosen to hate God and their neighbors then get the final word that, just like you can 'keep your doctor,' you can also keep your passions.  Those who repented receive mercy.

Now, the question always comes up about people who have some kind of belief in God, and perhaps a little love, but do nothing about it.

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it.   For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.   Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—   each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.   If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.   If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (1CO 3:10-15)

OK, here's another EO/RC divergence: for the RCC, this became 'purgatory,' whereas the EOC sees this as the general passage of death in which the soul must finally lay aside his passions.  It is like the difference between smokers who want to quit and those who don't: death becomes the choice of either going cold turkey or simply continuing to smoke... but not being able to.

The assumption of both churches is that the living can pray for the dead and offer sacrifices on their behalf in order to 'shorten' their suffering, though through different mechanisms.  RCCs believe that the suffering is divinely imposed (assumed the dead are still as dumb as they were when they are alive), versus the EOC belief that the suffering is the natural consequence of the passions.  Either way, since the dead are dead, they cannot pray, so the prayers of the living become, as it were, the means by which the dead can indeed pray.

Then David took hold of his clothes, and rent them; and so did all the men who were with him; and they mourned and wept and fasted until evening for Saul and for Jonathan his son and for the people of the Lord and for the house of Israel, because they had fallen by the sword. (1SA 1:11-12)

The death ritual is clearly not for the living, but for those who had 'fallen by the sword' (i.e. caught in sudden death without time to repent).  Fasting is connected with repentance for sin (c.f. 2SA 12:16).

So, I hope this helps.  In short, eternal punishment is something that God works with us on.  Then again, so is Paradise in Christ...


POM!  Excellent explanation of the Orthodox understanding of death and hell. Speaking as a former fundagelical, it has been the hardest part to change my understanding on. The Orthodox teaching on this is so different than anything taught in the west.
God bless!

Offline FatherGiryus

  • Don't Ask
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,195
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2015, 11:40:24 AM »
Again, just for clarification because Charles Martel is RC: my representation here does not, nor was it meant to, explain RCC dogma on this topic.  As I said before, I do not understand their beliefs well enough to explain them.

In order to understand RC dogma, there are a number of concepts that must be addressed:

'Original Sin'
Temporal Punishment
Particular Judgment
Purgatory
Limbo (though no longer recognized officially, it is critical to know the arguments for it)
Indulgences

Once he has gone through all of those, then he can better understand his own church's belief on the matter.
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2015, 11:44:38 AM »
I posted a video of Fr. Robert Barron's views who is not that far off from Orthodox understanding.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline FatherGiryus

  • Don't Ask
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,195
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2015, 11:51:34 AM »
I posted a video of Fr. Robert Barron's views who is not that far off from Orthodox understanding.

As with the Orthodox, there are a wide range of explanations.  However, I would say they do have more dogmas directly related to the topic than we do. 

I would also add the EO and OO appear to have virtually the same teachings.  To date, I have not found an OO who objected to this explanation.
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2015, 11:54:10 AM »
Well, tbh, some Coptic bishops have came out with some teachings against these views.  I ascribe this to a lack of other Church father translations in Arabic besides St. John Chrysostom.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline FatherGiryus

  • Don't Ask
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,195
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2015, 11:57:10 AM »
Well, tbh, some Coptic bishops have came out with some teachings against these views.  I ascribe this to a lack of other Church father translations in Arabic besides St. John Chrysostom.

Really?  What were they saying?
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2015, 12:17:24 PM »
Well, they frown upon the idea that anyone can be saved without repentance in this lifetime.  They take a very strict view that unless you at least tried to live a life of repentance, you can't be saved.  I think this is consistent with St. John Chrysostom.  They tend to redefine what it means to pray for the departed, as if it only helps those who were serious about their repentance.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline FatherGiryus

  • Don't Ask
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,195
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2015, 12:30:24 PM »
Well, I hope I didn't suggest that 'no repentance' is 'cool with Jesus and stuff.'   :o

A total absence of repentance is indicative of one who does not care for God at all.  What I was getting at are the people who simply don't do enough.  They weep, wail, and repeat their sins.  OK, so some don't wail, but they do have regrets.  But, instead of dealing with the regrets, they just do more to distract themselves.  The fact that they have regrets means that their consciences are there, but just overloaded and distracted.  Death brings all that regret to the surface, and by remembering their small acts of repentance, the prayers of the Church can then work on the other parts not fully repented of.

But, those who never repented, well... I'm not sure they would even want our prayers.

The difficulty for bishops is that, many believe, if they ease up even a little bit, the people will simply run amok and think they can wait for the last minute to take care of business.  So, down comes the 'fear-and-guilt-gravity-bomb' to make sure you are scared enough get your act together.

Otherwise, the temptation to bokra everything becomes more powerful.   ;)


Well, they frown upon the idea that anyone can be saved without repentance in this lifetime.  They take a very strict view that unless you at least tried to live a life of repentance, you can't be saved.  I think this is consistent with St. John Chrysostom.  They tend to redefine what it means to pray for the departed, as if it only helps those who were serious about their repentance.
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2015, 01:06:26 PM »
How can one tell that one has repented when quite a few saints on their deathbeds have stated that they have just begun to repent? Look at St. Mary of Egypt who spent many years in the desert. Near the end of her life, she still considered herself to be a reprobate and mourned for her many sins.

By our dissipative nature and potty mouth posts, aren't we giving the impression that we have never deeply repented?

Wide is the road to hell.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,880
  • I am the Provisional Supreme Church Authority
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2015, 02:04:40 PM »
M.E.

I will not waste my time going through your posts to prove that you are more dissipative. That would be a frivolous waste of time.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2015, 02:05:16 PM »
Well, I hope I didn't suggest that 'no repentance' is 'cool with Jesus and stuff.'   :o

A total absence of repentance is indicative of one who does not care for God at all.  What I was getting at are the people who simply don't do enough.  They weep, wail, and repeat their sins.  OK, so some don't wail, but they do have regrets.  But, instead of dealing with the regrets, they just do more to distract themselves.  The fact that they have regrets means that their consciences are there, but just overloaded and distracted.  Death brings all that regret to the surface, and by remembering their small acts of repentance, the prayers of the Church can then work on the other parts not fully repented of.

But, those who never repented, well... I'm not sure they would even want our prayers.

The difficulty for bishops is that, many believe, if they ease up even a little bit, the people will simply run amok and think they can wait for the last minute to take care of business.  So, down comes the 'fear-and-guilt-gravity-bomb' to make sure you are scared enough get your act together.

Otherwise, the temptation to bokra everything becomes more powerful.   ;)


Well, they frown upon the idea that anyone can be saved without repentance in this lifetime.  They take a very strict view that unless you at least tried to live a life of repentance, you can't be saved.  I think this is consistent with St. John Chrysostom.  They tend to redefine what it means to pray for the departed, as if it only helps those who were serious about their repentance.

I agree with you that in a sense, there is a worry of some sort of slippery slope of universalism that would sort of lessen the impact of Orthodox Christian truth.  The biggest issue is can those in Hades be forgiven?  If the answer is yes, they assume that it shouldn't matter what religion you are and that our prayers can lead one to repent in Hades, which goes against Orthodox Christian teaching. Thus this lead to removal of any idea in our liturgical texts that we request the sins of those in Hades be forgiven.  I disagree with it personally, and hopefully we'll have a growing number of Copts who are more theologically adept to grant that there is an ancient Coptic tradition well into the Middle Ages that do in fact pray for those in Hades.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline RobS

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,914
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2015, 02:08:54 PM »
I can't help but find it ironic that the OP comes from nobody else but Charles himself.

I'd say with how deplorable of a person you are based on what you post on the Politics board, you've already bought your one-way ticket to Hell a long time ago.

The only way is to repent from your conservative ways and truly follow Christ.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 02:09:39 PM by nothing »
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline Cyrillic

  • Laser Basileus.
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 13,710
  • St. Theodoret of Cyrrhus, pray for us!
  • Jurisdiction: But my heart belongs to Finland
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2015, 02:11:59 PM »
What is it really?

No idea, and I don't want to find out either.

Offline RobS

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,914
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2015, 02:13:13 PM »
What is it really?

No idea, and I don't want to find out either.
Eternal banishment and torment isn't Christian.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 02:13:27 PM by nothing »
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline wainscottbl

  • Swine of the Sheep
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,943
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2015, 02:16:00 PM »
I can't help but find it ironic that the OP comes from nobody else but Charles himself.

I'd say with how deplorable of a person you are based on what you post on the Politics board, you've already bought your one-way ticket to Hell a long time ago.

The only way is to repent from your conservative ways and truly follow Christ.

I hope you're being facetious because it is your talk right there that puts YOU on a one way ticket to hell. So much for conservatives being so judgemental.
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
                                                             -Aristotle



Mor Ephrem, section moderator[/b][/color]

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2015, 02:17:51 PM »
I can't help but find it ironic that the OP comes from nobody else but Charles himself.

I'd say with how deplorable of a person you are based on what you post on the Politics board, you've already bought your one-way ticket to Hell a long time ago.

The only way is to repent from your conservative ways and truly follow Christ.

May God permit me to be as righteous as you.  Certainly a man as sinless as yourself can be the only one to say such judgments
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline seekeroftruth777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,324
  • It a bird, it a plane, no it's Orthogringo!
  • Faith: Orthogringo
  • Jurisdiction: GOARCH
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2015, 02:31:29 PM »
I can't help but find it ironic that the OP comes from nobody else but Charles himself.

I'd say with how deplorable of a person you are based on what you post on the Politics board, you've already bought your one-way ticket to Hell a long time ago.

The only way is to repent from your conservative ways and truly follow Christ.

and her was told that only that it only Conservatives that are close minded,bigoited, arrogant and close minded  ::), gee how loving and progressive you are  :D

Offline seekeroftruth777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,324
  • It a bird, it a plane, no it's Orthogringo!
  • Faith: Orthogringo
  • Jurisdiction: GOARCH
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #30 on: July 14, 2015, 02:32:39 PM »
I can't help but find it ironic that the OP comes from nobody else but Charles himself.

I'd say with how deplorable of a person you are based on what you post on the Politics board, you've already bought your one-way ticket to Hell a long time ago.

The only way is to repent from your conservative ways and truly follow Christ.

and her was told that only that it only Conservatives that are close minded,bigoited, arrogant and close minded  ::), gee how loving and progressive you are  :D

Offline wainscottbl

  • Swine of the Sheep
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,943
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #31 on: July 14, 2015, 02:33:06 PM »
What is it really?

No idea, and I don't want to find out either.
Eternal banishment and torment isn't Christian.
 

And I'm not judging you. You're the one judging by saying he bought his one way ticket to hell. Which is how you buy your ticket to hell, because you pretend you're not going there, but say so and so is.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 02:33:42 PM by wainscottbl »
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
                                                             -Aristotle



Mor Ephrem, section moderator[/b][/color]

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,880
  • I am the Provisional Supreme Church Authority
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #32 on: July 14, 2015, 02:44:18 PM »
Eternal banishment and torment isn't Christian.

Still hurts, doesn't it Shiny? 
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline FatherGiryus

  • Don't Ask
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,195
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #33 on: July 14, 2015, 02:54:27 PM »
What is it really?

No idea, and I don't want to find out either.
Eternal banishment and torment isn't Christian.

Ooh!  Ooh!  I wanna play!   ;D

OK, nothing, figure out who said this:

“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.  Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,  and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.  Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;  for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’  Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?  And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?  And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’  And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’   Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;  for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,  I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’  Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’   Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’   And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

You get three guesses.  No googling. 

Hint: He said it in Aramaic...    ::)
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline TheTrisagion

  • Hoplitarches
  • *************
  • Posts: 17,814
  • All good things come to an end
  • Faith: Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #34 on: July 14, 2015, 02:56:19 PM »
Whoever it was, he needs to learn to be more Christlike.  :P
God bless!

Offline Theophania

  • Ecumenical Dissipation Association *OF* America
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,812
  • Faith: Orthodox
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #35 on: July 14, 2015, 03:10:03 PM »
Eternal banishment and torment isn't Christian.

Still hurts, doesn't it Shiny?

Eh he's a  good example of banishment NOT being eternal.
It's common knowledge that you secretly want to be born in early 17th century Russia.  As a serf or a royal, I know not.  Chances are serf.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #36 on: July 14, 2015, 03:11:27 PM »
Dear all,

If the reference to "conservative" is political, I need this to stop now.  The next person making a vaguely political statement, I will react through a moderatorial penalty.

God bless.

Mina
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #37 on: July 14, 2015, 03:22:54 PM »
 ....

Let us repent while we have time.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 03:23:29 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 18,604
  • You're my guardian angel hiding in the woods
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2015, 03:53:43 PM »
Eternal banishment and torment isn't Christian.

Still hurts, doesn't it Shiny?

Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline FatherGiryus

  • Don't Ask
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,195
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2015, 03:56:40 PM »
Eternal banishment and torment isn't Christian.

Still hurts, doesn't it Shiny?



Is this a reference to the Shiny of the glaze, or the nothing of the donut hole?  Or, both?   ???
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2015, 03:58:18 PM »
Eternal banishment and torment isn't Christian.

Still hurts, doesn't it Shiny?



Is this a reference to the Shiny of the glaze, or the nothing of the donut hole?  Or, both?   ???

More likely the huge bite before asking Nothing if he wanted that shiny perfect donut first.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 18,604
  • You're my guardian angel hiding in the woods
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2015, 04:11:16 PM »
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline FatherGiryus

  • Don't Ask
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,195
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2015, 04:53:54 PM »


Nothing represents 'hell' more perfectly than a donut licked by a B-list starlet with an exotic-dancer-name...
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 04:55:23 PM by FatherGiryus »
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline wainscottbl

  • Swine of the Sheep
  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,943
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2015, 04:57:52 PM »
Hell is a woman's scorn..... :police:
The roots of education are bitter, but the fruit is sweet.
                                                             -Aristotle



Mor Ephrem, section moderator[/b][/color]

Raylight

  • Guest
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2015, 05:14:37 PM »
The labels Conservative and Liberal in this post are theological, not political.

If Charles Martel is theologically Conservative, then I'm with him. (Even though that may go against me as a gay man. But I will not go theologically liberal just because of LGBT issues, while 90% I agree with Conservative theology ). However, I believe he is Traditionalist, and as fart as I can tell (please correct if I'm wrong) He believes that anyone who is not Catholic is damned, and not just anyone who is not Catholic, but also anyone who is not real traditionalist catholic. Now that is just extreme, and sooner or later it will lead the person to leave the faith all together. Just like Martin Luther did, because he thought that God will send anyone who sins to Hell, he became so depressed and desperate that he couldn't find anyway out except by leaving the Catholic Church. Going to the extreme on both directions; too liberal theologically or traditionalist theologically, does more harm than good to the person.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 05:17:35 PM by Raylight »

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 18,604
  • You're my guardian angel hiding in the woods
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2015, 05:19:55 PM »
.....and as fart as I can tell (please correct if I'm wrong) He believes.....

Let Charles clear the air for himself.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #46 on: July 14, 2015, 05:35:52 PM »
BTW, if anyone was wondering about my Fr. Robert Barron reference, here it is.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #47 on: July 14, 2015, 05:37:27 PM »
.....and as fart as I can tell (please correct if I'm wrong) He believes.....

Let Charles clear the air for himself.

LOL
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2015, 05:40:23 PM »
.....and as fart as I can tell (please correct if I'm wrong) He believes.....

Let Charles clear the air for himself.

After the "lol" by Maria, I had to read this again...I have to say...I did completely miss that...lol!
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2015, 05:41:27 PM »



What hell is all about:

Caption:  Look, I just took a bite of the last doughnut. Too bad. It is so sumptious too. [Cheshire cat grin.]
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline hecma925

  • Non-clairvoyant, but you can call me Elder
  • Stratopedarches
  • **************
  • Posts: 18,604
  • You're my guardian angel hiding in the woods
  • Faith: Truthful Chalcedonian Truther
  • Jurisdiction: Enemy State Orthodox Church Abroad
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2015, 05:43:09 PM »



What hell is all about:

Caption:  Look, I just took a bite of the last doughnut. Too bad. It is so sumptious too. [Cheshire cat grin.]

That is a type of hell, definitely.  How hateful Satan is.
Happy shall he be, that shall take and dash thy little ones against the rock. Alleluia.

Once Christ has filled the Cross, it can never be empty again.

"But God doesn't need your cookies!  Arrive on time!"

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #51 on: July 14, 2015, 05:43:59 PM »
.....and as fart as I can tell (please correct if I'm wrong) He believes.....

Let Charles clear the air for himself.

After the "lol" by Maria, I had to read this again...I have to say...I did completely miss that...lol!

I have had to read many ESL student papers. They say the funniest things too.

Like the time one of my students could not say his "V" sound, so it came out as a "B".

He told me with a perfectly straight face, "I need help with my bowel movements."
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,880
  • I am the Provisional Supreme Church Authority
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2015, 05:44:39 PM »
.....and as fart as I can tell (please correct if I'm wrong) He believes.....

Let Charles clear the air for himself.

After the "lol" by Maria, I had to read this again...I have to say...I did completely miss that...lol!

I have had to read many ESL student papers. They say the funniest things too.

Like the time one of my students could not say his "V" sound, so it came out as a "B".

He told me with a perfectly straight face, "I need help with my bowel movements."

Not "bowel mobements"?
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #53 on: July 14, 2015, 05:46:16 PM »
.....and as fart as I can tell (please correct if I'm wrong) He believes.....

Let Charles clear the air for himself.

After the "lol" by Maria, I had to read this again...I have to say...I did completely miss that...lol!

I have had to read many ESL student papers. They say the funniest things too.

Like the time one of my students could not say his "V" sound, so it came out as a "B".

He told me with a perfectly straight face, "I need help with my bowel movements."
lol...cute :)
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #54 on: July 14, 2015, 05:47:08 PM »



What hell is all about:

Caption:  Look, I just took a bite of the last doughnut. Too bad. It is so sumptious too. [Cheshire cat grin.]

That is a type of hell, definitely.  How hateful Satan is.

How well I know. My brother would do this with me all the time.
He would bite every single doughnut to claim them all as his own.
And then he would give me the biggest "Cheshire cat grin."
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #55 on: July 14, 2015, 05:50:18 PM »
.....and as fart as I can tell (please correct if I'm wrong) He believes.....

Let Charles clear the air for himself.

After the "lol" by Maria, I had to read this again...I have to say...I did completely miss that...lol!

I have had to read many ESL student papers. They say the funniest things too.

Like the time one of my students could not say his "V" sound, so it came out as a "B".

He told me with a perfectly straight face, "I need help with my bowel movements."

Not "bowel mobements"?

more like "bowel moobment" with no "s" either
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Mor Ephrem

  • A highly skilled and trained Freudian feminist slut
  • Section Moderator
  • Hypatos
  • *****
  • Posts: 35,880
  • I am the Provisional Supreme Church Authority
    • OrthodoxChristianity.net
  • Faith: Mercenary Freudianism
  • Jurisdiction: Texas Feminist Coptic
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2015, 06:00:43 PM »
.....and as fart as I can tell (please correct if I'm wrong) He believes.....

Let Charles clear the air for himself.

After the "lol" by Maria, I had to read this again...I have to say...I did completely miss that...lol!

I have had to read many ESL student papers. They say the funniest things too.

Like the time one of my students could not say his "V" sound, so it came out as a "B".

He told me with a perfectly straight face, "I need help with my bowel movements."

Not "bowel mobements"?

more like "bowel moobment" with no "s" either

Oh man, now we're talking about moobs? 
OC.NET is full of temptations, but in temptations we are enforced, remember about the thread "Temptation in the Desert: Rachel Weisz and the Undoing of Mor Ephrem". OC.NET helps in becoming unpassionate.

Quote
Oh you Greeks, you are all dumb!

An Athonite

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #57 on: July 14, 2015, 06:11:22 PM »
.....and as fart as I can tell (please correct if I'm wrong) He believes.....

Let Charles clear the air for himself.

After the "lol" by Maria, I had to read this again...I have to say...I did completely miss that...lol!

I have had to read many ESL student papers. They say the funniest things too.

Like the time one of my students could not say his "V" sound, so it came out as a "B".

He told me with a perfectly straight face, "I need help with my bowel movements."

Not "bowel mobements"?

more like "bowel moobment" with no "s" either

Oh man, now we're talking about moobs?

I had no idea that moobs was a word. Just googled it.
Oh, my red face!
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2015, 06:11:46 PM »
image would not post
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 06:15:38 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #59 on: July 14, 2015, 06:17:21 PM »
image would not post

Perhaps for the best  :P
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 06:17:29 PM by minasoliman »
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #60 on: July 14, 2015, 06:19:07 PM »
It wasn't what you think.

News Breaking:
Quote
Solar activity predicted to fall 60% in 2030s, to 'mini ice age' levels: Sun driven by double dynamo
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/07/150709092955.htm

Maybe hell will freeze over.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 06:29:19 PM by Maria »
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #61 on: July 14, 2015, 06:20:30 PM »
Well, technically, I remember reading that Dante thought the most torturous parts of Hell were cold, not blazing fire.  You can still get "freeze burns"  :P
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Raylight

  • Guest
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #62 on: July 14, 2015, 06:24:59 PM »
Well, technically, I remember reading that Dante thought the most torturous parts of Hell were cold, not blazing fire.  You can still get "freeze burns"  :P

I wonder what you think of Islam's image of Hell like I mentioned ? I remember someone once said to me that Hell in Christianity compared to Hell in Islam is paradise  ;D

Offline Dracula

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 208
  • Faith: Order of the Dragon
  • Jurisdiction: Global
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #63 on: July 14, 2015, 06:29:02 PM »
What is it really? Am I going there? If not me, who? What is Orthodoxy's position on this? Or any other faith that people who post on here belong to. Is there a lot of people in hell now?

According to Fatima, there's tons of souls burning and being tortured in hell, mostly for "sins of the flesh".

But why? Why do people have to suffer for eternity for what was done for possibly just a few decades down here on Earth?

Especially for sins that we are naturally inclined to commit because the "flesh is weak".

Eternal damnation is kind of a hard concept sometimes, just like heaven/paradise I suppose.

What is hell really?

Need some insight.

The way I see it, in the RCC( I have a RCC friend) one needs to practically be a fruit(sin-free / viceless) and even then for previous sins or sins of childhood and even confessed and repented sins he / she will go to purgatory. Only pure saints are to be in heaven in the RCC (as far as I understood this guy, or something along this line) . EO is more libertine and less strictly, but generally like in the RCC mostly anyone is going to hell, not even saints and fathers were sure of their destination and none can be. The approach is to be a scarty pants and always in modesty. :)

« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 06:30:16 PM by Dracula »
Signature removed because it violates the rule prohibiting promotion of non-Orthodox teachings in Faith Issues. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #64 on: July 14, 2015, 06:29:23 PM »
Well, technically, I remember reading that Dante thought the most torturous parts of Hell were cold, not blazing fire.  You can still get "freeze burns"  :P

I wonder what you think of Islam's image of Hell like I mentioned ? I remember someone once said to me that Hell in Christianity compared to Hell in Islam is paradise  ;D

Well, I have not read ALL literature on how the Church fathers describe hell.  What is most obvious is there are either repetitions of Biblical literature, some references from the desert fathers on what hell is like (St. Macarius the Great has very famous references), and then you have the more "advanced" understanding of hell as "the love of God".  I simply have no view on what hell is other than it should be avoided.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #65 on: July 14, 2015, 06:31:12 PM »
Well, technically, I remember reading that Dante thought the most torturous parts of Hell were cold, not blazing fire.  You can still get "freeze burns"  :P

I wonder what you think of Islam's image of Hell like I mentioned ? I remember someone once said to me that Hell in Christianity compared to Hell in Islam is paradise  ;D

Well, I have not read ALL literature on how the Church fathers describe hell.  What is most obvious is there are either repetitions of Biblical literature, some references from the desert fathers on what hell is like (St. Macarius the Great has very famous references), and then you have the more "advanced" understanding of hell as "the love of God".  I simply have no view on what hell is other than it should be avoided.

Exactly.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline biro

  • Site Supporter
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,826
  • Excelsior
    • Archive of Our Own works
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #66 on: July 14, 2015, 07:14:43 PM »
Hell is a town in Michigan. That is not a cheap shot at Michigan: they really call it that. ;)

http://www.gotohellmi.com/
https://archiveofourown.org/users/Parakeetist/works Warning: stories have mature content.

"Some people only feel good when they are praising the Lord." - Coptic bishop

Mt. 21:31 Jesus said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that tax collectors and harlots enter the kingdom of God before you."

"Our Lord will *never* stop loving us." - Fr. Michael P.

Offline RobS

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,914
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #67 on: July 14, 2015, 10:11:57 PM »
And I'm not judging you. You're the one judging by saying he bought his one way ticket to hell. Which is how you buy your ticket to hell, because you pretend you're not going there, but say so and so is.
Well I think Charles deserves the derision, I just couldn't help but laugh when I opened the thread to see who authored it.

Now if you want my opinion on "Hell", well my Christianity doesn't have a place called "Hell". It's a condition, not some place.

Although I am convinced there lies a desire in many people that all the lurid visions of Hell that Protestants perpetuate wish to be true. But see that would then give those Christians a right to be sanctimonious over those that will perish, which seems rather antithetical to the Gospel. I think Paul rightly expressed contempt towards such people.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 10:30:31 PM by nothing »
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline RobS

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,914
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #68 on: July 14, 2015, 10:14:18 PM »
What is it really?

No idea, and I don't want to find out either.
Eternal banishment and torment isn't Christian.

Ooh!  Ooh!  I wanna play!   ;D

OK, nothing, figure out who said this:

“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.  Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,  and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.  Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;  for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’  Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?  And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?  And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’  And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’   Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;  for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,  I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’  Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’   Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’   And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

You get three guesses.  No googling. 

Hint: He said it in Aramaic...    ::)


Philippians 2:1-4
Galatians 5:6
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #69 on: July 14, 2015, 10:21:44 PM »
And I'm not judging you. You're the one judging by saying he bought his one way ticket to hell. Which is how you buy your ticket to hell, because you pretend you're not going there, but say so and so is.
Well I think Charles deserves the derision, I just couldn't help but laugh when I opened the thread to see who authored it.

Now if you want my opinion on "Hell", well my Christianity doesn't have a place called "Hell". It's a condition, not some place.

Although I am convinced there lies a desire in many people that all the lurid visions of Hell that Protestants perpetuate wish to be true. But see that would then give those Christians a right to be sanctimonious over those that perished, which seems rather antithetical to the Gospel. I think Paul rightly expressed contempt towards such people.

Ya...and I am guessing you don't have a one-way ticket to that "condition".  Pray for us!
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline RobS

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,914
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #70 on: July 14, 2015, 10:26:17 PM »
And I'm not judging you. You're the one judging by saying he bought his one way ticket to hell. Which is how you buy your ticket to hell, because you pretend you're not going there, but say so and so is.
Well I think Charles deserves the derision, I just couldn't help but laugh when I opened the thread to see who authored it.

Now if you want my opinion on "Hell", well my Christianity doesn't have a place called "Hell". It's a condition, not some place.

Although I am convinced there lies a desire in many people that all the lurid visions of Hell that Protestants perpetuate wish to be true. But see that would then give those Christians a right to be sanctimonious over those that perished, which seems rather antithetical to the Gospel. I think Paul rightly expressed contempt towards such people.

Ya...and I am guessing you don't have a one-way ticket to that "condition".  Pray for us!
Ah sarcasm that masks pride.

And yes I have been praying for Charles fervently. In fact I even told him so.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #71 on: July 14, 2015, 10:50:54 PM »
And I'm not judging you. You're the one judging by saying he bought his one way ticket to hell. Which is how you buy your ticket to hell, because you pretend you're not going there, but say so and so is.
Well I think Charles deserves the derision, I just couldn't help but laugh when I opened the thread to see who authored it.

Now if you want my opinion on "Hell", well my Christianity doesn't have a place called "Hell". It's a condition, not some place.

Although I am convinced there lies a desire in many people that all the lurid visions of Hell that Protestants perpetuate wish to be true. But see that would then give those Christians a right to be sanctimonious over those that perished, which seems rather antithetical to the Gospel. I think Paul rightly expressed contempt towards such people.

Ya...and I am guessing you don't have a one-way ticket to that "condition".  Pray for us!
Ah sarcasm that masks pride.

And yes I have been praying for Charles fervently. In fact I even told him so.

How can I mask my sin when I simply admitted my sinful and wretched self and seeking your prayers oh sinless one!
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline RobS

  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 3,914
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #72 on: July 14, 2015, 10:51:53 PM »
And I'm not judging you. You're the one judging by saying he bought his one way ticket to hell. Which is how you buy your ticket to hell, because you pretend you're not going there, but say so and so is.
Well I think Charles deserves the derision, I just couldn't help but laugh when I opened the thread to see who authored it.

Now if you want my opinion on "Hell", well my Christianity doesn't have a place called "Hell". It's a condition, not some place.

Although I am convinced there lies a desire in many people that all the lurid visions of Hell that Protestants perpetuate wish to be true. But see that would then give those Christians a right to be sanctimonious over those that perished, which seems rather antithetical to the Gospel. I think Paul rightly expressed contempt towards such people.

Ya...and I am guessing you don't have a one-way ticket to that "condition".  Pray for us!
Ah sarcasm that masks pride.

And yes I have been praying for Charles fervently. In fact I even told him so.

How can I mask my sin when I simply admitted my sinful and wretched self and seeking your prayers oh sinless one!
Keep trying mina, you might humble yourself soon enough.
"The business of the Christian is nothing else than to be ever preparing for death (μελεπᾷν ἀποθνήσκειν)."

— Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Fragment XI

Modernist thinking and being consists of nothing but uncritical acceptance.

Offline minasoliman

  • Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
  • Moderator
  • Stratopedarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 20,204
  • Pray for me St. Severus
  • Faith: Oriental Orthodox
  • Jurisdiction: Coptic
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #73 on: July 14, 2015, 10:53:13 PM »
And I'm not judging you. You're the one judging by saying he bought his one way ticket to hell. Which is how you buy your ticket to hell, because you pretend you're not going there, but say so and so is.
Well I think Charles deserves the derision, I just couldn't help but laugh when I opened the thread to see who authored it.

Now if you want my opinion on "Hell", well my Christianity doesn't have a place called "Hell". It's a condition, not some place.

Although I am convinced there lies a desire in many people that all the lurid visions of Hell that Protestants perpetuate wish to be true. But see that would then give those Christians a right to be sanctimonious over those that perished, which seems rather antithetical to the Gospel. I think Paul rightly expressed contempt towards such people.

Ya...and I am guessing you don't have a one-way ticket to that "condition".  Pray for us!
Ah sarcasm that masks pride.

And yes I have been praying for Charles fervently. In fact I even told him so.

How can I mask my sin when I simply admitted my sinful and wretched self and seeking your prayers oh sinless one!
Keep trying mina, you might humble yourself soon enough.

Are you ready to tell us the truth about yourself?  Or will you keep yourself behind a mask and judge people's "condition"?
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #74 on: July 14, 2015, 11:06:02 PM »
The conversation above is proof that some are living in a hellish condition right now, whether they admit it or not.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline converted viking

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 306
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #75 on: July 14, 2015, 11:17:52 PM »
The conversation above is proof that some are living in a hellish condition right now, whether they admit it or not.

How sad this whole conversation has been.  Very troubling.

Viking

Offline Maria

  • Boldly Proclaiming True Orthodox Christianity
  • Toumarches
  • ************
  • Posts: 14,023
  • O most Holy Theotokos, save us.
    • Saint Euphrosynos Cafe Discussion Forum
  • Faith: TrueGenuine Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: GOC under Archbishop Stephanos
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #76 on: July 14, 2015, 11:19:24 PM »
The conversation above is proof that some are living in a hellish condition right now, whether they admit it or not.

How sad this whole conversation has been.  Very troubling.

Viking

Indeed. Lord have mercy on us.
The memory of God should be treasured in our hearts like the precious pearl mentioned in the Holy Gospel. Our life's goal should be to nurture and contemplate God always within, and never let it depart, for this steadfastness will drive demons away from us. - Paraphrased from St. Philotheus of Sinai
Writings from the Philokalia: On Prayer of the Heart,
Translated from the Russian by E. Kadloubovksy and G.E.H. Palmer, Faber and Faber, London, Boston, 1992 printing.

Offline FatherGiryus

  • Don't Ask
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,195
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #77 on: July 15, 2015, 12:20:47 AM »
What is it really?

No idea, and I don't want to find out either.
Eternal banishment and torment isn't Christian.

Ooh!  Ooh!  I wanna play!   ;D

OK, nothing, figure out who said this:

“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.  Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,  and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.  Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;  for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’  Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?  And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?  And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’  And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’   Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;  for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,  I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’  Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’   Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’   And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

You get three guesses.  No googling. 

Hint: He said it in Aramaic...    ::)


Philippians 2:1-4
Galatians 5:6

No, not St. Paul.  You have two more guesses!   :D

2 Thessalonians 1:5-12
Hebrews 10:26-31
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline Dracula

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 208
  • Faith: Order of the Dragon
  • Jurisdiction: Global
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #78 on: July 15, 2015, 05:15:10 AM »
What is it really?

No idea, and I don't want to find out either.
Eternal banishment and torment isn't Christian.

Ooh!  Ooh!  I wanna play!   ;D

OK, nothing, figure out who said this:

“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.  Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,  and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.  Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;  for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’  Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?  And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?  And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’  And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’   Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;  for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,  I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’  Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’   Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’   And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

You get three guesses.  No googling. 

Hint: He said it in Aramaic...    ::)


Philippians 2:1-4
Galatians 5:6

No, not St. Paul.  You have two more guesses!   :D

2 Thessalonians 1:5-12
Hebrews 10:26-31


Jesus did not write a single syllable in the Bible.
Signature removed because it violates the rule prohibiting promotion of non-Orthodox teachings in Faith Issues. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator

Offline Dracula

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 208
  • Faith: Order of the Dragon
  • Jurisdiction: Global
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #79 on: July 15, 2015, 05:16:50 AM »
The conversation above is proof that some are living in a hellish condition right now, whether they admit it or not.

How sad this whole conversation has been.  Very troubling.

Viking

It's because you are a weak viking.
Signature removed because it violates the rule prohibiting promotion of non-Orthodox teachings in Faith Issues. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator

Offline Dracula

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 208
  • Faith: Order of the Dragon
  • Jurisdiction: Global
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #80 on: July 15, 2015, 05:17:50 AM »
The conversation above is proof that some are living in a hellish condition right now, whether they admit it or not.

Yes, Christians :)... Hell exists for them.
Signature removed because it violates the rule prohibiting promotion of non-Orthodox teachings in Faith Issues. 

Mor Ephrem, moderator

Offline FatherGiryus

  • Don't Ask
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,195
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #81 on: July 15, 2015, 09:18:07 AM »
So, what's your point?  You know a lot about Vlad Tepeş, but he didn't write an autobiography either.

Jesus did not write a single syllable in the Bible.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 09:44:09 AM by FatherGiryus »
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline Arachne

  • Trinary Unit || Resident Bossy Boots
  • Section Moderator
  • Toumarches
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,542
  • Race: Human. Culture: Yes.
  • Faith: Cradle Greek Orthodox. Cope.
  • Jurisdiction: Antiochian Archdiocese, UK
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #82 on: July 15, 2015, 09:19:48 AM »
So, what's your point?  You know a lot about Vlad Tepes, but he didn't write an autobiography either.

You mean he didn't dictate to that Stoker chap?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 09:20:14 AM by Arachne »
'Evil isn't the real threat to the world. Stupid is just as destructive as evil, maybe more so, and it's a hell of a lot more common. What we really need is a crusade against stupid. That might actually make a difference.'~Harry Dresden

~ bookshelf ~ ugly writing ~ jukebox ~

Offline FatherGiryus

  • Don't Ask
  • Protokentarchos
  • *********
  • Posts: 4,195
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #83 on: July 15, 2015, 09:48:45 AM »

So, what's your point?  You know a lot about Vlad Tepes, but he didn't write an autobiography either.

You mean he didn't dictate to that Stoker chap?

Yeah, and then there's Socrates  (I can't help but call him 'Sō-crātes' just like in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure).  He must not have existed. 
You can't find wisdom in the mirror.

Offline converted viking

  • Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 306
  • Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #84 on: July 15, 2015, 10:32:13 PM »
The conversation above is proof that some are living in a hellish condition right now, whether they admit it or not.

How sad this whole conversation has been.  Very troubling.

Viking

It's because you are a weak viking.

What?

Viking

Offline PeterTheAleut

  • The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
  • Hypatos
  • *****************
  • Posts: 37,280
  • Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!
  • Faith: Orthodox Christian
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #85 on: July 15, 2015, 11:58:07 PM »
.....and as fart as I can tell (please correct if I'm wrong) He believes.....

Let Charles clear the air for himself.

LOL
Laughter is dissipative, especially when you're laughing at scatological jokes. ;)
Not all who wander are lost.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #86 on: July 16, 2015, 09:02:59 PM »
Again, just for clarification because Charles Martel is RC: my representation here does not, nor was it meant to, explain RCC dogma on this topic.  As I said before, I do not understand their beliefs well enough to explain them.

In order to understand RC dogma, there are a number of concepts that must be addressed:

'Original Sin'
Temporal Punishment
Particular Judgment
Purgatory
Limbo (though no longer recognized officially, it is critical to know the arguments for it)
Indulgences

Once he has gone through all of those, then he can better understand his own church's belief on the matter.

I understand my church's belief on the matter very well.

And like Mina said, it's a very difficult concept.


And according to RC teachings, there's a pretty good chance I'm going there.


I guess I'm banking on purgatory. ;)
« Last Edit: July 16, 2015, 09:03:26 PM by Charles Martel »
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #87 on: July 16, 2015, 09:07:27 PM »
I can't help but find it ironic that the OP comes from nobody else but Charles himself.

I'd say with how deplorable of a person you are based on what you post on the Politics board, you've already bought your one-way ticket to Hell a long time ago.

The only way is to repent from your conservative ways and truly follow Christ.
I'd rather scorching in hell-fire forever than be stuck on a cloud with you for eternity.

Thanks for "nothing". 8)
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #88 on: July 16, 2015, 09:09:31 PM »
Hell is a woman's scorn..... :police:
Actually it has no fury than a woman scorned.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #89 on: July 16, 2015, 09:10:55 PM »
The labels Conservative and Liberal in this post are theological, not political.

If Charles Martel is theologically Conservative, then I'm with him. (Even though that may go against me as a gay man. But I will not go theologically liberal just because of LGBT issues, while 90% I agree with Conservative theology ). However, I believe he is Traditionalist, and as fart as I can tell (please correct if I'm wrong) He believes that anyone who is not Catholic is damned, and not just anyone who is not Catholic, but also anyone who is not real traditionalist catholic. Now that is just extreme, and sooner or later it will lead the person to leave the faith all together. Just like Martin Luther did, because he thought that God will send anyone who sins to Hell, he became so depressed and desperate that he couldn't find anyway out except by leaving the Catholic Church. Going to the extreme on both directions; too liberal theologically or traditionalist theologically, does more harm than good to the person.
I'm only going by Church doctrine Ray.

Take it up with the Vatican.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Offline seekeroftruth777

  • Archon
  • ********
  • Posts: 2,324
  • It a bird, it a plane, no it's Orthogringo!
  • Faith: Orthogringo
  • Jurisdiction: GOARCH
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #90 on: July 16, 2015, 10:45:58 PM »
The labels Conservative and Liberal in this post are theological, not political.

If Charles Martel is theologically Conservative, then I'm with him. (Even though that may go against me as a gay man. But I will not go theologically liberal just because of LGBT issues, while 90% I agree with Conservative theology ). However, I believe he is Traditionalist, and as fart as I can tell (please correct if I'm wrong) He believes that anyone who is not Catholic is damned, and not just anyone who is not Catholic, but also anyone who is not real traditionalist catholic. Now that is just extreme, and sooner or later it will lead the person to leave the faith all together. Just like Martin Luther did, because he thought that God will send anyone who sins to Hell, he became so depressed and desperate that he couldn't find anyway out except by leaving the Catholic Church. Going to the extreme on both directions; too liberal theologically or traditionalist theologically, does more harm than good to the person.

how much of this type of theology in Traditionalist Catholicism is a result of their view on Original Sin? I'm curious

Offline xOrthodox4Christx

  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 7,322
  • Faith: Orthodox Catholic Church
  • Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #91 on: July 16, 2015, 10:49:13 PM »
The labels Conservative and Liberal in this post are theological, not political.

If Charles Martel is theologically Conservative, then I'm with him. (Even though that may go against me as a gay man. But I will not go theologically liberal just because of LGBT issues, while 90% I agree with Conservative theology ). However, I believe he is Traditionalist, and as fart as I can tell (please correct if I'm wrong) He believes that anyone who is not Catholic is damned, and not just anyone who is not Catholic, but also anyone who is not real traditionalist catholic. Now that is just extreme, and sooner or later it will lead the person to leave the faith all together. Just like Martin Luther did, because he thought that God will send anyone who sins to Hell, he became so depressed and desperate that he couldn't find anyway out except by leaving the Catholic Church. Going to the extreme on both directions; too liberal theologically or traditionalist theologically, does more harm than good to the person.

how much of this type of theology in Traditionalist Catholicism is a result of their view on Original Sin? I'm curious

Some of it definitely is. But instead of specific examples, it's the aggregate result.
I reject all that I wrote that isn't in accordance with the teachings of the Orthodox Church. Also, my posts reflect my opinions (present or former) and nothing else.

Offline Charles Martel

  • BANNED for rules violations
  • Taxiarches
  • **********
  • Posts: 6,805
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #92 on: July 20, 2015, 06:04:34 PM »
Quote
He believes that anyone who is not Catholic is damned, and not just anyone who is not Catholic, but also anyone who is not real traditionalist catholic
This is not true.

And a very narrow view of trad Catholicism.
Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in proelio, contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium.

Raylight

  • Guest
Re: Hell.......
« Reply #93 on: July 20, 2015, 06:54:38 PM »
Quote
He believes that anyone who is not Catholic is damned, and not just anyone who is not Catholic, but also anyone who is not real traditionalist catholic
This is not true.

And a very narrow view of trad Catholicism.

Then please correct me. Because this is the general idea I have about Traditionalist Catholics. I apologize if I offended you.