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Author Topic: Liturgical Insanity or why there will never be a "reunion"  (Read 11078 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2005, 11:45:05 PM »

Sabbas,

You are correct regarding the missal which I believe is the Roman Missal 2002 which has been revised(again) and has been completed, the "American" Bishops are waiting for the English translation so "they" can review and comment on it before its final publishing & release.

Maybe they will get the correct translation from the Latin...this time.

james, just as skeptical & wary of Rome & the ARCC as many here
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« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2005, 01:33:25 PM »

I will have to get a service book when I am at Church, it is AA, and see what the prayers are.

The Office for Receiving into the Orthodox Faith Such Persons as Have Not Previously Been Orthodox

[In the narthex of the Church.]

f the convert cometh to the Orthodox Faith from the Roman-Latin Confession (or from a Protestant confession), the Bishop shall question him, and shall say:

Wilt thou renounce the errors and false doctrines of the Roman-Latin (or Armenian, or Lutheran, or Reformed) Confession?

And he shall reply: I will.

Then the Bishop demandeth of him, from whatever confession he may come:

Dost thou desire to enter into and abide in the communion of the Orthodox-Catholic Faith?

Answer: I do.

[The Bishop signs him with the sign of the Cross, and the reads a long prayer over him.]

And the Bishop questioneth the convert from the Roman/Latin Confession.

Dost thou renounce the false doctrine that, for the expression of the dogma touching the Procession of the Holy Spirit, the declaration of our Savior Jesus Christ himself: "who proceedeth from the Father": doth not suffice; and that the addition, of man's invention: "and from the Son": is required?

Answer: I do

Bishop: Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that it doth not suffice to confess our Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the Universal Church; and that a man, to wit, the Bishop of Rome, can be the head of Christ's Body, that is to say, of the whole Church?

Answer: I do.

Bishop: Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal power, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince: And that the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor: And that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles?

Answer: I do.

Bishop:ÂÂ  Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Å’cumenical Councils, and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by Councils?

Answer: I do.

Bishop: Dost thou renounce all the other doctrines of the Western Confession, both old and new, which are contrary to the Word of God, and to the true tradition of the Church, and to the decrees of the Seven Oecumenical Councils?

Answer: I do.

[....]

Bishop: Hast thou renounced all ancient and modern heresies and false doctrines which are contrary to the teachings of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Eastern Church?

Answer: I have.

Bishop: Dost thou desire to be united unto the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Eastern Church?

Answer: I desire it with all my heart.

Bishop: Dost thou believe in one God, who is adored in the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit: and dost thou worship him as King and God?

Answer: I believe in one God who is glorified and adored in the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and I worship him as King and God.

Then he maketh a lowly reverence, kneeling and bowing his head to the earth, and reciteth the Creed.

[....]

Bishop: Blessed be God, who enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world.

And again the Bishop saith:

Tell us of the other dogmas of our Orthodox Church, its traditions and ordinances; how thou holdest concerning them?

And he replieth:

I accept and confess the Apostolic and Ecclesiastical Canons, established by the Seven Holy Ecumenical and Provincial Councils, and the other traditions of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Apostolic Church of the East, its rules and ordinances; and I likewise will accept and understand Holy Scripture in accordance with the interpretation which the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Church of the East, our Mother, hath held and doth hold.

I believe and confess that there are seven sacraments of the New Testament, to wit: Baptism, Chrismation, the Eucharist, Confession, the Priesthood, Marriage and Anointing with Oil, instituted by the Lord Christ and His Church, to the end that, through their operation and reception, we may receive blessings from on high.

I believe and confess that in the Divine Liturgy, under the mystical forms of bread and wine, the faithful partake of the true Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, unto the remission of their sins, and unto life eternal.

I believe and confess that it is proper to reverence and invoke the Saints who reign on high with Christ, according to the interpretation of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Church of the East; and that their prayers and intercessions avail with the beneficent God unto our salvation: Likewise that it is well-pleasing in the sight of God that we should do homage to their relics, glorified through incorruption, as the precious memorials of their virtues.

I acknowledge that the images of our Saviour Christ, and of the Ever-Virgin Mother of God, and of the other Saints are worthy to be possessed and honoured; not unto idolatry, but that, through contemplation thereof we may be incited unto piety, and unto emulation of the deeds of the holy persons represented by those images.

I confess that the prayers of the faithful, which are offered up to God for the salvation of those who have departed this life in the faith, are favourably received, through the mercy of God.

I believe and confess that power has been given by our Saviour Christ unto the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Church to bind and to loose: and whatsoever, by virtue of that power, is bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven.

I believe and confess that the Foundation, Head, and Great High Priest and Chief Shepherd of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Church is our Lord Jesus Christ: and that Bishops, Pastors and Teachers are appointed by Him to rule the Church, and that the Guide and Pilot of this Church is the Holy Spirit.

I confess that this Church is the Bride of Christ, and that therein is true salvation.

I promise true obedience, unto my life's end, to the Most Holy Synod (if it be in a Dioscese, then the Bishop of that diocese is named), as the true Pastors of the Orthodox Church, and to the Priests appointed by them.

Then the Bishop giveth him the end of his pall (omofór) (if a priest offciate, he giveth him the end of his priestly stole (epitrakhíl)) in his right hand, saying:

Enter thou the Orthodox Church; and cast away all the errors and false doctrines wherein thou hast dwelt: and honor the Lord God, the Father Almighty, and his Only-begotten Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, one true and living God, the Holy Trinity, one in Essence and Indivisible.

[Then they enter the Church proper while Psalm 66 is read, and the Bishop commands that the convert kneel before the Holy Gospels. He then reads a long prayer over the convert.]

And after the prayer, the Bishop commandeth him to stand, saying:

Rise, and stand straight: stand with fear.

And he, rising, saith:

This true faith of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Church, which I now voluntarily confess and unfeignedly hold, I will firmly maintain and confess whole and in its fullness and integrity, until my last breath, God being my helper; and will teach it and proclaim it, so far as in me lieth; and will strive to fulfill its obligations cheerfully and with joy, preserving my heart in purity and virtue. And in confirmation of this, my true and sincere profession of faith, I now kiss the word and cross of my Saviour. Amen.

Then the Bishop giveth him the Holy Gospels and the Cross to kiss. And after he hath kissed them, [the Bishop] saith:

Blessed be God, who willeth that all men should be saved, and should come unto the knowledge of the truth: Blessed is he forevermore.

Choir: Amen.

[Then the bishop again commands him to kneel, and reads over him "the form absolving such a convert from Excommunication, and from his sins, and of joining him unto the Holy Catholic Church".]

The the Bishop saith to him:

Rise, brother (sister), and as a faithful servant of jesus Christ pray thou unto him with us, that he will vouchsafe unto thee, through anointment with the holy Chrism, to receive the grace of the Holy Spirit.

And rising, the convert standeth with all emotion.

[Here follows the full office of Chrismation.]

Taken from the Service Book of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Apostolic Church, translated by I. F. Hapgood, pages 454-463. This service was approved and published by the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church in 1895.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 01:34:54 PM by Julio » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2005, 10:00:32 PM »

Thank you Julio
I wish I knew Koine so I could see whether the word translated as renounce means roughly the same thing as denounce. Of course renounce can be used in a variety of ways. As I mentioned it can mean simply changing a position on something or casting something off in the sense that it is despicable. Perhaps the word should be denounce? Can any of you who know Koine and have a service book in Koine elaborate on this? Hopefully there is somebody here.

Jennifer
Do you consider Papal Infallibility to be okay? The filioque okay? Such heretical beliefs are worthy of denunciation as being the work of demons in the hearts of various greedy and puffed up men. Why do you defend Roman Catholicism? Am I saying something false about it? Just because I consider Roman Catholicism heresy does not mean I hate Roman Catholics or think they are idiots or that I do not sympathize with them or think they are striving for salvation and seek the same God. Like I have said before I have nothing but sympathy for the majority of Roman Catholics, particularly those who hold firmly to the Latin Mass, and think they have a lot in common with the Orthodox. But I only believe in One Church that is visible and undivided and that it is part of the duty of the members of the One True Church to let others know what is heresy and what is not when the question comes up. To not be willing to do such a thing would be tantamount to lying.

James
Do you know of any more statements coming from Pope Benedict XVI or the Vatican that there will be some attempt at returning to the traditional rubrics for the mass? I know of the Pope's recent book on the Liturgy but I am curious what it will mean for the future.
Most seem to think that all that will happen is that the Pope will press for priests and bishops to insert optional rubrics in which the priest, if officiating towards the congregation as almost all using the Novus Ordo Missae do, turns at various points towards the Cross, that is the Cross will be behind him and he will have to face the same way as the congregation at that time. Of course I doubt the ARCC would pay much attention to this.
Also have you heard anything about a possible rapproachment of SSPX with the Vatican? I would not be suprised if it happens someday though the demands made by SSPX seem to big for the Vatican to deal with such as declaring the suppression of the Latin Mass unlawful. If there was any rapproachment on these terms it would be good news for traditionalists, both in SSPX and in FSSP. The bishops would no longer be able to stop priests from practicing the Latin Mass.
Believe or not my sister told me about a situation up at Dyersville Basilica a year or two ago but before I tell the story I'll give some background. Dyersville is in Northeast Iowa and is home of some of the most serious conservative and traditionalist Roman Catholics in the U.S. Though the bishop of Dubuque does not like it there was so much clamoring for the return of the Latin Mass to the basilica that several years ago it was reinstituted. Unfortunately for major feasts the traditional rubrics and Latin Mass are not allowed and on the Feasts, specifically Holy Week, all faithful have to attend the Novus Ordo celebration. Well a year or two ago the FSSP came and asked if they could perform the traditional Holy Week rites for those who desired it. The bishop of Dubuque fought as hard as he could to keep it from happening but there was so much popular support that he had to give way. But he gave the FSSP an ultimatum afterwards saying that if they performed the traditional Holy Week rites they would never be allowed back at the basilica. Well they went attend and celebrated them as part of their duty to the faithful! If only it could be made so that the bishops could not suppress the Latin Mass and traditional Feast Day rites I wonder just how many more RC parishes would decide to return to tradition?
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« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2005, 10:16:41 PM »

I'm not Roman Catholic but will speak up for them here.ÂÂ  Traditio isn't a credible site.ÂÂ  I've heard its owner is a fake priest.ÂÂ  He certainly posts a lot of hateful things.ÂÂ  

Frankly I don't understand why an Orthodox Christian would get dragged into the ravings of whacko RC trads.ÂÂ  



I agree.  I dont see any reason to be concerned how the RCC wants to conduct their Divine services. We are the firm base from which all Christians can come back to see their roots get a true perspective of the one true faith.  If the RCC wants to degrade their services let them, I know we wont and this is very comforting and reasuring.

JoeS   Cool

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« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2005, 10:26:27 PM »

Thank you Julio

Why, you're welcome. Grin

I wish I knew Koine so I could see whether the word translated as renounce means roughly the same thing as denounce. Of course renounce can be used in a variety of ways. As I mentioned it can mean simply changing a position on something or casting something off in the sense that it is despicable. Perhaps the word should be denounce? Can any of you who know Koine and have a service book in Koine elaborate on this? Hopefully there is somebody here.

As I noted above, this Service was approved by the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church, and therefore, its original text is in Church Slavonic. I don't have a copy of the original of this Service (which may be found in the third volume of the 1960 Jordanville Slavonic Trebnik), but I can try to find out what the word is. On first impression, it would seem to me that "denounce" seems a bit extreme. As the Archimandrite Lazarus (Moore) of blessed memory used to say: "When we come to the Church, we should not look backward screaming, but we should look forward singing". Which is not to say, of course, that a firm renunciation of one's former heresies is not required--the Service quoted makes that clear enough.

--Julio

PS: Incidentally, there is a much, much shorter "Order for the Conversion to Orthodoxy from the Latin Church" in pages 110-113 of Apostoliki Diakonia's Mikron Evkhologion. The final page contains a "Libellos" ("Certificate") that the convert must sign. In it, the converts attests to "confess and love" (kathomologō kai stergō) all those things established by the Seven Ecumenical and Local Councils, while "casting off" (apoballomenos) the teachings of the Latin Church, while "beginning anew" (kainotomēthenta) regarding the Dogmas, Mysteries, Traditions, and praxis of the Orthodox Church. This is precisely in the vein of the ever-memorable Fr. Lazarus' words cited above.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2005, 10:28:12 PM by Julio » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2005, 11:44:48 PM »

Why, you're welcome. Grin

As I noted above, this Service was approved by the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church, and therefore, its original text is in Church Slavonic. I don't have a copy of the original of this Service (which may be found in the third volume of the 1960 Jordanville Slavonic Trebnik), but I can try to find out what the word is. On first impression, it would seem to me that "denounce" seems a bit extreme. As the Archimandrite Lazarus (Moore) of blessed memory used to say: "When we come to the Church, we should not look backward screaming, but we should look forward singing". Which is not to say, of course, that a firm renunciation of one's former heresies is not required--the Service quoted makes that clear enough.

--Julio

Of I realize that the service book your are quoting from was originally in Church Slavonic but I would imagine it is modelled on an earlier Greek version but of course I could be wrong.

Why is everyone so afraid of denunciation? When I was made a catechumen - usually this is only done in a rite immediately preceding baptism and/or chrismation of a catechumen into the Church - I was required to face the west and spit at a sheet of paper representing Satan. I simply think that which is evil should be denounced. Perhaps I am wrong?
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« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2005, 07:37:25 AM »

Of I realize that the service book your are quoting from was originally in Church Slavonic but I would imagine it is modelled on an earlier Greek version but of course I could be wrong.

This Service was an original composition in Slavonic; the Greek service is altogether different.

Why is everyone so afraid of denunciation? When I was made a catechumen - usually this is only done in a rite immediately preceding baptism and/or chrismation of a catechumen into the Church - I was required to face the west and spit at a sheet of paper representing Satan. I simply think that which is evil should be denounced. Perhaps I am wrong?

I don't think that most people are afraid of "denunciation", if what is meant by that is taking a stand for what is right. The concern is, rather, that being a reactionary never saved anyone. If one can't provide a confession of the Church's faith, but rather a list of all of the things one doesn't believe, well, Houston, we have a problem. This is why there's such a clear emphasis in both the Russian and Greek services on "renouncing", "casting off" first, and then "confessing", "beginning anew". Again, not backward screaming, but forward singing, as Father Lazarus was wont to say. The idea is the same in the Order for Making of Catechumens: one first renounces Satan, and his fallen angels, and his works, and his service, and his pomp, and then, when such filthiness is cast off, once confesses Christ and proclaims to believe in Him as King and God. It is only after this passing from rejection to confession that one is baptized.

--Julio
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« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2005, 08:01:23 AM »

When my dad was in Vietnam the chaplain did not wear camouflage and the chaplains were never with the men in combat so I can't see why they would need to.

Sabbas,

During my tour in VietNam, chaplains of all faiths were regularly in the field with my mechanized infantry battalion and later with my medical clearing company.  Sixteen chaplains are listed on the Wall; two of those (Lt Robert Capodanno, USN,[/url] and Major Charles Watters, USA[/url], both of blessed memory) were awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor posthumously; it was also awarded to another Chaplain (Capt. Angelo Liteky, USA[/url]) who survived.  The Army chaplains alone who served in VietNam were awarded 26 Silver Stars, 719 Bronze Stars, 66 Legions of Merit, and 82 Purple Hearts.

Whenever Mass, Divine Liturgy, Protestant, or Jewish services were held in the field (which was frequently, sometimes imminently prior to or in the immediate aftermath of battle) the chaplains regularly wore camouflage vestments, often surmounted by a flak jacket.  At other times, they celebrated the services of their Faiths in their fatigue uniforms, because circumstances were such that it was too dangerous to be vested.  Enemy wisdom held, with much truth, that the surest way to rout an American combat unit was to deprive it of leadership, communications, medical care, and morale - accomplished by killing officers and sergeants, radio-operators, medics, and clergy.

See also Mass at a Firebase.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2005, 08:12:45 AM »

This is why there's such a clear emphasis in both the Russian and Greek services on "renouncing", "casting off" first, and then "confessing", "beginning anew".

Even the spongy Episcopalians do it this way. We don't have an itemized list, though.

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« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2005, 06:46:12 PM »

That whole site did seem a bit dodgy, so I wouldnt take it as credible.

Now, this is one thing that urks me about Orthodoxy. It always seems that there some person out there who posts negative things about the RC church. Ive been to several RC forums,a nd have seen almost nothing of the sort. Are you trying to tell me this stuff doesnt happen in the Orthodox church? Of course it does, and probably in the same quanities as well!

Also, whos buisness is it how you worship? As long as you're sincere in your mind when you pray, and it does not break a commandment or commit a sin, then there is really nothing wrong with it. Is there a sin, "Thou shalt not wear a cheese square on thine head"?

I pray in the traditional way, get dressed up for church, etc., but it seems to utterly foolish to harass people who pray in their own way.
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« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2005, 09:32:26 PM »


Now, this is one thing that urks me about Orthodoxy. It always seems that there some person out there who posts negative things about the RC church. Ive been to several RC forums,a nd have seen almost nothing of the sort. Are you trying to tell me this stuff doesnt happen in the Orthodox church? Of course it does, and probably in the same quanities as well!

First, you have to differentiate "real life" Orthodoxy from on-line Orthodoxy.  Second, while I'm sure this kind of stuff does happen in the Orthodox Church, I'm certain it doesn't happen in the "same quantities."  I've been both RC and Orthodox and have yet to met an 'un-orthodox' Orthodox priest.  I've never attended a questionable Orthodox liturgy. 

Quote
Also, whos buisness is it how you worship? As long as you're sincere in your mind when you pray, and it does not break a commandment or commit a sin, then there is really nothing wrong with it. Is there a sin, "Thou shalt not wear a cheese square on thine head"?

As Orthodox Christians, it's not really "our business," but many of us are saddened by liturgical abuses in the RCC.  And it certainly does matter.  What you worship is what you believe.  In Orthodoxy, we don't separate liturgy from theology so it sounds odd to us to hear that liturgical abuses don't matter. 
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« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2005, 10:37:30 PM »

Never attended a questionable one, eh? Well, then come on over to Maine!

Last Sunday, I attended my first Liturgy. People were taking extra pieces of The Sacrament back to their friends and family who were NOT Orthodox. I was apalled as I saw them knibble on the bread at their seats for several minutes like it was a picnic!

Oh, and this Sunday, the Liturgy is going to be held in a remote park during a "meet and greet gathering". Unless they plan on lugging a slab of marble for the alter and a lifesize Jesus on a cross to bless The Sacraments, then I can just see a picnic table being used with styrofoam cups holding the Blood of Christ. Btw, there are no benches or chairs there, so I assume we'll be sitting on the grass in a circle like we're in a Pagan ritual.

Blasphamous enough for ya?
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« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2005, 10:43:28 PM »

Never attended a questionable one, eh? Well, then come on over to Maine!

Last Sunday, I attended my first Liturgy. People were taking extra pieces of The Sacrament back to their friends and family who were NOT Orthodox. I was apalled as I saw them knibble on the bread at their seats for several minutes like it was a picnic!

Oh, and this Sunday, the Liturgy is going to be held in a remote park during a "meet and greet gathering". Unless they plan on lugging a slab of marble for the alter and a lifesize Jesus on a cross to bless The Sacraments, then I can just see a picnic table being used with styrofoam cups holding the Blood of Christ. Btw, there are no benches or chairs there, so I assume we'll be sitting on the grass in a circle like we're in a Pagan ritual.

Blasphamous enough for ya?

â€Â  Irini nem ehmot â€Â

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« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2005, 10:47:04 PM »

Never attended a questionable one, eh? Well, then come on over to Maine!

Last Sunday, I attended my first Liturgy. People were taking extra pieces of The Sacrament back to their friends and family who were NOT Orthodox. I was apalled as I saw them knibble on the bread at their seats for several minutes like it was a picnic!

That wasn't the Sacrament.  That was the antidoron, or blessed bread.  No need to be "appalled."  We receive it after the Eucharist in order to make sure that we swallow all of the crumbs of the Body and Blood.  We also receive the antidoron after the veneration of the Cross.  Some pious Orthodox take a piece of the antidoron home and eat it first thing each morning. 

Quote
Oh, and this Sunday, the Liturgy is going to be held in a remote park during a "meet and greet gathering". Unless they plan on lugging a slab of marble for the alter and a lifesize Jesus on a cross to bless The Sacraments, then I can just see a picnic table being used with styrofoam cups holding the Blood of Christ. Btw, there are no benches or chairs there, so I assume we'll be sitting on the grass in a circle like we're in a Pagan ritual.

Are you trolling?  Serioiusly...you do know that we stand during the liturgy so there's no need for benches or chairs.  And no matter what you can "just see" no Orthodox priest would use styrofoam cups.  You also don't need a marble altar and a lifesize Jesus "to bless the Sacraments."  First, our altars are usually not made of marble.  Second, we don't have crucifixes in our churches. 

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« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2005, 10:53:14 PM »

Here are some links about Antidoron. 

This link is from a more traditional point of view.  The Proper Use of Antidoron.

Here's a link to the Catholic Encyclopedia.

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« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2005, 11:13:09 PM »

I just posted about antidoron here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=6606.from1120963042;topicseen#msg86557
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« Reply #61 on: July 10, 2005, 01:18:20 PM »

In this Greek Orthodox Church, there is a lifesize Jesus nailed to a cross in The Sanctuary. Before he hands out the "Antidoron" and the Blood of Christ, he does a ritual where he walks around all of the pews 3 times, goes up to the bronze Jesus, and makes the trinity motion ON THE CHRIST.

I attended this "meet-and-greet" today as I didnt wish to miss church, which I am trying to attend every Sunday. We didnt stand, we sat. Some people brought blankets, while others brought lawn chairs. It wasnt as bad as I thought it would be, but there was a picnic table used as an alter, along with some candles.

While I was actually in the church last Sunday,we sat most of the time, stood once at the beginning for 5 minutes, and kneeled about 3 times.
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« Reply #62 on: July 10, 2005, 01:45:17 PM »

Simayan,

I think what you're describing is the Great Entrance.  During the Great Entrance, the priest comes out with the gifts.  In the Russian tradition, he stands on the ambo.  In the Greek tradition, he walks around the church. 

I think you're still confused about the Antidoron.  A portion of the prosphora is called the Lamb.  This portion becomes the Body of Christ.  The rest of the loaf is the Antidoron, or Blessed Bread. 

I'm not sure what you mean by the "trinity motion ON THE CHRIST." 

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« Reply #63 on: July 10, 2005, 01:59:45 PM »

Simayan,

Here are some links you might find of interest. 

This link gives a good description of an Orthodox liturgy for a newcomer.  First Visit to an Orthodox Church

This link describes an Orthodox temple.  The Orthodox Church

This link describes what should be on the altar.  The Holy Temple

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« Reply #64 on: July 10, 2005, 02:56:43 PM »

Well, Im still new, some Im not too familiar with all the Greek terms, but the trinity thing was.....well.....

You know how people make the cross on themselves, head, cheast, right shoulder, left shoulder? Well, he did that to the statue of Jesus, like he actually touched the Jesus, and did the left shoulder first as if Jesus was doing ti himself. Is this common, because it seems odd that The Son would do the Son motion if he is the son...
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« Reply #65 on: July 10, 2005, 06:42:16 PM »

Simayan, I know what you are talking about although I've never seen it myself.

Sometimes when the priest is in front of the altar, he does the sign of the cross in the direction of the "Jesus on the wodden Cross" directly behind the altar. Thats just a blessing. The priest is not blessing Christ. He is basically acknowledging that the bread and wine on the altar has now been truly mystically transformed into the body and Blood of Christ.

I hope I didn't say anything wrong or confused you even more,
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« Reply #66 on: July 12, 2005, 02:27:03 PM »

Sabbas,

During my tour in VietNam, chaplains of all faiths were regularly in the field with my mechanized infantry battalion and later with my medical clearing company.  Sixteen chaplains are listed on the Wall; two of those (Lt Robert Capodanno, USN,[/url] and Major Charles Watters, USA[/url], both of blessed memory) were awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor posthumously; it was also awarded to another Chaplain (Capt. Angelo Liteky, USA[/url]) who survived.  The Army chaplains alone who served in VietNam were awarded 26 Silver Stars, 719 Bronze Stars, 66 Legions of Merit, and 82 Purple Hearts.

Whenever Mass, Divine Liturgy, Protestant, or Jewish services were held in the field (which was frequently, sometimes imminently prior to or in the immediate aftermath of battle) the chaplains regularly wore camouflage vestments, often surmounted by a flak jacket.  At other times, they celebrated the services of their Faiths in their fatigue uniforms, because circumstances were such that it was too dangerous to be vested.  Enemy wisdom held, with much truth, that the surest way to rout an American combat unit was to deprive it of leadership, communications, medical care, and morale - accomplished by killing officers and sergeants, radio-operators, medics, and clergy.

See also Mass at a Firebase.

Many years,

Neil
What year/s were you in? My father was in for most of 1967 and left July 31, 1968. He was in the 101st Airbourne and he has never told me why he extended his stay for another six months. But what he did tell me is that there was a chaplain with his unit in the field but that Mass was never said. Why the priest never said Mass in the field my father does not know or can't remember.

In this Greek Orthodox Church, there is a lifesize Jesus nailed to a cross in The Sanctuary. Before he hands out the "Antidoron" and the Blood of Christ, he does a ritual where he walks around all of the pews 3 times, goes up to the bronze Jesus, and makes the trinity motion ON THE CHRIST.

I attended this "meet-and-greet" today as I didnt wish to miss church, which I am trying to attend every Sunday. We didnt stand, we sat. Some people brought blankets, while others brought lawn chairs. It wasnt as bad as I thought it would be, but there was a picnic table used as an alter, along with some candles.

While I was actually in the church last Sunday,we sat most of the time, stood once at the beginning for 5 minutes, and kneeled about 3 times.
Simayan all I can say, and I am not casting judgment, is that you should not judge all of Orthodoxy by what goes on in one parish in the GOA. The GOA has had a history of allowing unOrthodox practices to creep into its parishes and the folding chairs and blankets along with the odd ritual with a bronze crucifix, if that is what you are talking about, are one example.
What GOA parish are you visiting anyway? I would contact the bishop if what you are seeing is as odd as you describe it.
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« Reply #67 on: July 12, 2005, 03:47:21 PM »

*Sigh*

This all started with this topic. Somebody said Catholic Churches had more of these blasphamous events than in Orthodox churches, and I disagreed.

I pointed out this particular church which I attend, in an attempt to show everyone that all churches make mistakes, because many internet 'fanatics', if I may use the word, think Orthodox places of worship have VERY few, if almost no ceremonial problems.

I am in no way judging all of The Orthodoxy this way. Would anyone in their right mind think about converting to a church that goes against most of Christianity, as far as worship goes? Probably not, I am just here to make a point, as it seemed the creator of this thread wanted to bash Roman Catholics.
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« Reply #68 on: July 12, 2005, 04:08:00 PM »

Quote
I pointed out this particular church which I attend, in an attempt to show everyone that all churches make mistakes, because many internet 'fanatics', if I may use the word, think Orthodox places of worship have VERY few, if almost no ceremonial problems.

But so far, you haven't described any real ceremonial problems with the Orthodox services. There are several points in the liturgy when the priest makes the sign of the cross towards the east. The Body and Blood are given mixed together with a spoon, and then antidoron is given afterwards; you would *never* see anyone holding the Body and Blood other than the priest, because it goes straight from chalice to spoon to mouth. In Russian churches, not only the antidoron is given out, but after communion people will drink zapifka, which is wine mixed with warm water and served in a little metal cup.

Many Orthodox churches have pews, and people will sit at certain points of the liturgy. There is nothing wrong with serving liturgy outdoors; it is frequently done when there are large groups of people (such as during pilgrimages) and not enough indoor space to accomodate them. An altar is not required to celebrate the liturgy, but an antimens (a cloth with relics and the signature of the bishop) is.
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« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2005, 05:05:27 PM »

I think every Roman Catholic should see this http://www.traditio.com/nos.htm

I often am told by conservative Roman Catholics that crazy masses are a thing of the past such as when I mention the infamous clown masses. I am asked if it is even still relevant to a discussion about Roman Catholic-Orthodox dialogue. This page has photos and dates and the crazy masses are obviously not gone. It never ceases to amaze me how conservative Roman Catholics can just go to mass and not really worry about this abuse. I also wonder how a conservative Roman Catholic deals with the knowledge that archbishops and even Pope John Paul II took part in and are still taking part in the abuse.

[ . . . ]

I am sorry for the ranting but upon seeing these photos and the hierarchs involved I was shocked. Before I thought it was only a few rogue priests. I had no idea bishops, archbishops, and even the Pope took part in these crazy masses.
Hopefully some Roman Catholic here can give a rebuttal.


I won't try to give a rebuttal, but I will try to give an explanation.

The Novus Ordo Mass is a conscious and deliberate attempt by the Catholic Chuirch to make Catholic worship more accessible and adaptable to different cultures.  Some tr5aditionalists will bqalk at this, but there was a feeling that the Catholic religion was becoming frozen into relgiioous formalism: like a fossil.  So, the Church decided to change the religious forms so as to get the worship back to worship.  For example, the liturgical language was changed to the vernacular, the priest faced the people so the people could see the Eucharist, obsolete vestments and language was dropped, the epiclesis was resumed, etc.  The balance was this:  flexbility in terms of music, songs, decorations, etc. but obedience to the rubrics (detailed instructions) for those parts of the ritual which cannot be changed.

Unfortunately, some people (including some priests . . . ) have disobeyed the rubrics.  Hence, a yuear or so ago, the Vatican issued DETAILED new rubrics to squash many of the abuses of the Novus Ordo.  Compliance with these news rubrics has been variable and gradual in some places, better in others.

Now, as for the website that was cited.  Not all the photographed activity is not wrong by Catholic norms.  Some things might be offensive to some people's individual tastes, and those things might be shocking to people from other churches (such as the Orthodox Church), but some of those things were not wrong according to Catholic standards.  For example, it is perfectly ok to celebrate Mass outdoors  (as long as there is a special,cloth used as an altar surface).  It is also ok --and praiseworthy to bring the Mass to people: on retareat, at a youth camp and, yes, even at a beach.  ASs for the bishop wearinjg a cheese-hat at Mass, I wasn't there.  Probably, though, he put it on for only a moment to show fraternity with the people gathered there: who are from Wisconsin, whose economic life-blood is the production of cheese.  Dancing women ("liturgical dancers") at Mass is soemthing that I personally find inappropriate, but apparently some bishops have allowed it.  And so on: economia is useful at times, necessary at others but very ill-advised at other times.  Nevertheless, I found most of the photos at that website to be within acceptable limits for liturgy in the Catholic Church.

Hence, my next point:  we really are different Churches.  I read several posts in this thread that said Roman Catholicism does not have valid sacraments, a position with which I (as a practicing Catholic) categorically reject.  In my *expereince* as well as beleif, they are quite valid because He, Jesus Christ, is acting through them.  But, we are different Churches.  We have different beleifs, and we have different ways of doing things.  The differences in beleifs and in how we celebrate our sacraments iullustrates this profoundly.

Hence my final point:  I think that the rush to reunion by some is ill-advised.  The differences in liturgy illustrate that.  The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church have been divorced for a 1000 years.  It will take time to understand each other (especially our differences) and to respect each other (including our differences).  I would love some kind of spiritual communion -- genuine love among each other and working together to combat common foes of secularism, etc.   Otherwise, I think the separation of the Churches is a fact that must be acknowledged for reasons that must be respected.  In other words, I think we can be good neighbors not only by being nice but also by having good fences. 

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« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2005, 05:39:47 PM »

Quote
But so far, you haven't described any real ceremonial problems with the Orthodox services.

There's an Orthodox Church near me that has a 1:10 liturgy, kneeling on Sundays (contrary to the 20th canon of the 1st Ecumenical Council), the preacher sometimes uses the sermon as a political soapbox to propound his own beliefs, and yet after all this people will give you dirty looks if you go against "custom".

I don't personally have anything against this parish. I even think they are, generally speaking, pretty friendly. I don't deny that they are Orthodox. But, if I wanted to nit-pick I'm sure I could fine even more "problems" than the ones I listed above, which is what I can remember off the top of my head after casual observance of their parish a few times. I don't think that Orthodox parishes have problems to the same extent as Catholics... but we do have problems, and unfortunately many times these problems are mandated straight from the bishops.
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« Reply #71 on: July 12, 2005, 05:58:46 PM »

*Sigh*

This all started with this topic. Somebody said Catholic Churches had more of these blasphamous events than in Orthodox churches, and I disagreed.

I pointed out this particular church which I attend, in an attempt to show everyone that all churches make mistakes, because many internet 'fanatics', if I may use the word, think Orthodox places of worship have VERY few, if almost no ceremonial problems.

I am in no way judging all of The Orthodoxy this way. Would anyone in their right mind think about converting to a church that goes against most of Christianity, as far as worship goes? Probably not, I am just here to make a point, as it seemed the creator of this thread wanted to bash Roman Catholics.
Simayan where do you get the idea that Archbishops wearing cheeseheads to Mass and Cardinals have elaborate dances in the sanctuary, along with taking money from major drug dealers, is just a mistake?

As far as Orthodoxy is concerned there are very few instances when you have serious liturgical irregularities and I have never heard of even a parish priest doing something as blasphemous as having lay people hand out communion. In fact the liturgical irregularity you describe at the GOA parish, having a large, bronze Crucifix in the sanctuary, is the most unusual thing I have ever heard of.
The reason why we do not have the problems the Roman Catholics do is because any Orthodox priest or bishop doing anything like that would almost certainly be deposed.

The reason I started this thread was to bash liturgical insanity. In fact I have repeatedly stated that I feel nothing but sympathy for serious Roman Cathlolics who have put up with all the nonsense.

Simayan you have not made your point and in fact doing a good job of proving my point when you seriously asked if it was a sin for an Archbishop to celebrate a Mass wearing a cheesehead. Most of us here would say it is common sense that such a thing is not appropriate.


I won't try to give a rebuttal, but I will try to give an explanation.

The Novus Ordo Mass is a conscious and deliberate attempt by the Catholic Chuirch to make Catholic worship more accessible and adaptable to different cultures. Some tr5aditionalists will bqalk at this, but there was a feeling that the Catholic religion was becoming frozen into relgiioous formalism: like a fossil. So, the Church decided to change the religious forms so as to get the worship back to worship. For example, the liturgical language was changed to the vernacular, the priest faced the people so the people could see the Eucharist, obsolete vestments and language was dropped, the epiclesis was resumed, etc. The balance was this: flexbility in terms of music, songs, decorations, etc. but obedience to the rubrics (detailed instructions) for those parts of the ritual which cannot be changed.

Unfortunately, some people (including some priests . . . ) have disobeyed the rubrics. Hence, a yuear or so ago, the Vatican issued DETAILED new rubrics to squash many of the abuses of the Novus Ordo. Compliance with these news rubrics has been variable and gradual in some places, better in others.

Now, as for the website that was cited. Not all the photographed activity is not wrong by Catholic norms. Some things might be offensive to some people's individual tastes, and those things might be shocking to people from other churches (such as the Orthodox Church), but some of those things were not wrong according to Catholic standards. For example, it is perfectly ok to celebrate Mass outdoors (as long as there is a special,cloth used as an altar surface). It is also ok --and praiseworthy to bring the Mass to people: on retareat, at a youth camp and, yes, even at a beach. ASs for the bishop wearinjg a cheese-hat at Mass, I wasn't there. Probably, though, he put it on for only a moment to show fraternity with the people gathered there: who are from Wisconsin, whose economic life-blood is the production of cheese. Dancing women ("liturgical dancers") at Mass is soemthing that I personally find inappropriate, but apparently some bishops have allowed it. And so on: economia is useful at times, necessary at others but very ill-advised at other times. Nevertheless, I found most of the photos at that website to be within acceptable limits for liturgy in the Catholic Church.

Hence, my next point: we really are different Churches. I read several posts in this thread that said Roman Catholicism does not have valid sacraments, a position with which I (as a practicing Catholic) categorically reject. In my *expereince* as well as beleif, they are quite valid because He, Jesus Christ, is acting through them. But, we are different Churches. We have different beleifs, and we have different ways of doing things. The differences in beleifs and in how we celebrate our sacraments iullustrates this profoundly.

Hence my final point: I think that the rush to reunion by some is ill-advised. The differences in liturgy illustrate that. The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church have been divorced for a 1000 years. It will take time to understand each other (especially our differences) and to respect each other (including our differences). I would love some kind of spiritual communion -- genuine love among each other and working together to combat common foes of secularism, etc. Otherwise, I think the separation of the Churches is a fact that must be acknowledged for reasons that must be respected. In other words, I think we can be good neighbors not only by being nice but also by having good fences.



Thank you for offering a rebuttal. But in my talks with others who were adults when the Mass began to change that some were outraged at any change but most at first felt that the changes were good but went too far. One person I know was delighted when they started reading Epistle and Gospel in the vernacular but when they started offering all of the Mass in the vernacular he became dismayed because he noticed that various prayers and verses were purposely being mistranslated from the Latin such as the obvious mistranlations of "Et cum spiritu tuo," as "And also with you." Then they turned the altar table and then came the guitars and Pete, Paul, Mary songs. He quickly realized this was not reform but revolution.

Also I would ask why you say that the turning of the altar table around was so the people could see the Eucharist? It can be seen in the Latin Mass at the Elevation of the host and then the chalice.

As I said I as an observer find it unlikely that Pope Benedict will be able squash all the abuses but I wish him and all serious RCs good luck. I wish more RCs would read the Pope's recent book so that they would see more clearly that the Novus Ordo has serious flaws as it is currently celebrated.

As for being good neighbors and working together on social issues I am all for it.
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« Reply #72 on: July 12, 2005, 07:54:26 PM »

I usally refer others to responsibile sites for liturgical questions etc... so again here they are;

http://www.adoremus.org/index.html

http://www.latinmassmagazine.com/

http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/index.asp

Just as in Orthodoxy there are many many different opinons etc...

Chow,
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« Reply #73 on: September 19, 2007, 12:17:28 AM »

Liturgical Insanity is right! And people have the nerve to ask, "Why(ine) dont the Orthodox think the Roman Catholic sacraments are valid?"!!!!!!! Why(ine) dont the Orthodox think Catholics are Christians? How you can belong to a so-called "church" that would allow and encourage such sacrilege and goofiness is beyond me! Totally disgusting! After seeing this "Mess," I have no desire tolisten to any Catholic why(ining)-ing again!
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« Reply #74 on: September 19, 2007, 12:51:15 AM »

Liturgical Insanity is right! And people have the nerve to ask, "Why(ine) dont the Orthodox think the Roman Catholic sacraments are valid?"!!!!!!! Why(ine) dont the Orthodox think Catholics are Christians? How you can belong to a so-called "church" that would allow and encourage such sacrilege and goofiness is beyond me! Totally disgusting! After seeing this "Mess," I have no desire tolisten to any Catholic why(ining)-ing again!

I'm just wondering why you conjured up this thread from 2005 and decided to top it off with some remarks which were far from a glowing example of Christian charity....?  Huh

Perhaps you have an axe to grind?   Roll Eyes

  I was raised as a Roman Catholic, attended Roman Catholic grade and high schools. First interested in Orthodoxy in grade school, where the nun told me (after I had told her about getting information on Orthodoxy from different Orthodox Churches) that I should not read any of it as it was all "trash." Converted to Orthodoxy (ROCOR) at age 35, long, long, long after abandoning Catholicism.
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« Reply #75 on: September 19, 2007, 02:32:23 AM »

I did not "conjure up" anything, sir-it is right here with all the other threads. If it is not permitted to add to them, why are they here? NO other reason for commenting than what I said-it is indeed liturgical insanity, as well as sacrilege-if you think not, and prefer to have "Mass" with clowns, half naked priests, etc etc etc and so on-be my guest! Just telling you my opinion-or isnt that allowed here either?

What "agenda"do you think I could have? The nun when I was in the 6th grade-uh-and YOU are the one who talks about "conjuring up" things form the past? ARE YOU ACCUSING ME OF SOMETHING? If so, why not be a big brave boy and say it outright instead of hinting around? And, sir, I do not give one whit for your estimation of my "Christian Love." Attack me all you like-when my opponents attack, it means I am doing something right.
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« Reply #76 on: September 19, 2007, 02:46:45 AM »

What "agenda"do you think I could have?
I'm not sure if you have one, or what it might be if you do, but it is clear that any possible agenda of yours would not include dialogue or discussion:
I have no desire tolisten to any Catholic why(ining)-ing again!
So clearly, you do not wish to listen to those who may disagree with you. You just want to be able to voice your opinion and not have to answer any challenges to it.
OK. We've heard you. Thanks.
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« Reply #77 on: September 19, 2007, 03:21:54 AM »

And, sir, I do not give one whit for your estimation of my "Christian Love." Attack me all you like-when idiots attack, it means I am doing something right.
Perhaps your interpretation of "Christian Love" includes calling people "idiots", but we have rules about ad hominems on this forum, and I believe you were warned about this before.
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« Reply #78 on: September 19, 2007, 01:52:09 PM »

Attack me all you like-when idiots attack, it means I am doing something right.

"If people disagree/ don't like what I write then they are "attacking" and that means I'm Right.  If people agree, then that means I'm Right." 

Sigh

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« Reply #79 on: September 19, 2007, 02:00:13 PM »

Attack me all you like-when idiots attack, it means I am doing something right.

So since you're attacking, I take it we're all doing something right?
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