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Author Topic: Liturgical Insanity or why there will never be a "reunion"  (Read 11273 times) Average Rating: 0
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Sabbas
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« on: June 30, 2005, 12:38:44 PM »

I think every Roman Catholic should see this http://www.traditio.com/nos.htm
I often am told by conservative Roman Catholics that crazy masses are a thing of the past such as when I mention the infamous clown masses. I am asked if it is even still relevant to a discussion about Roman Catholic-Orthodox dialogue. This page has photos and dates and the crazy masses are obviously not gone. It never ceases to amaze me how conservative Roman Catholics can just go to mass and not really worry about this abuse. I also wonder how a conservative Roman Catholic deals with the knowledge that archbishops and even Pope John Paul II took part in and are still taking part in the abuse.

Whenever Roman Catholics mention to me "healing the split" I simply say that the Orthodox Church would never condone what is going on at mass and in seminaries these days and that I don't think the Roman Catholic bishops are going to change simply to work towards "reunion". Often they aren't even aware of just how bad things are and are shocked when I mention some of the things that have been done. I mean think of it an Archbishop wearing a cheesehead at mass and not being excommunicated? or Pope John Paul II's dancing and inter-faith ecumenical gathering at Assisi? or sugar cookies and pancakes for the host?
How can any conservative Roman Catholic use the word canonical when the Apostolic Canons are not even enforced and the Pope himself breaks them?

I am sorry for the ranting but upon seeing these photos and the hierarchs involved I was shocked. Before I thought it was only a few rogue priests. I had no idea bishops, archbishops, and even the Pope took part in these crazy masses.
Hopefully some Roman Catholic here can give a rebuttal.
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« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2005, 12:58:03 PM »

Wow...when I see photos like these I'm reminded why I am drawn towards Orthodoxy and not to Rome.  Shocked
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« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2005, 01:22:13 PM »

I'm not Roman Catholic but will speak up for them here.  Traditio isn't a credible site.  I've heard its owner is a fake priest.  He certainly posts a lot of hateful things. 

Frankly I don't understand why an Orthodox Christian would get dragged into the ravings of whacko RC trads. 

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« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2005, 01:27:51 PM »

Friends,

These are isolated incidents and I would say let Rome tend to Rome, these new age wonders are on the way out being exposed for what they really are . Nobody said it would be easy after 30 years or so of this BS.

I agree, there should not be any discussions until Rome has its own house in order.

But there is nothing preventing people from saying a prayer or two for the reform...is it ?


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« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2005, 01:37:31 PM »

Indeed, for several of those pics there's no evidence that it was a Catholic service at all. The Episcopalians wear stoles, too.

And it's pics like this that show why I'm drawn to the Roman rite.
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« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2005, 01:56:43 PM »

Wow...when I see photos like these I'm reminded why I am drawn towards Orthodoxy and not to Rome. Shocked
I would add that this liturgical disorder also explains why Una Voce and SSPX are growing. I also heard Frank Schaeffer say something similar to what you said. He originally looked into Roman Catholicism before becoming Orthodox but concluded that he would not relish jumping from the frying pan into the fire adding, " . . . what I don't need is an ex-Maryknoll nun handing out pink balloons during the liturgy." ÂÂ

I'm not Roman Catholic but will speak up for them here. Traditio isn't a credible site. I've heard its owner is a fake priest. He certainly posts a lot of hateful things.

Frankly I don't understand why an Orthodox Christian would get dragged into the ravings of whacko RC trads.
Jennifer you are missing the point. I am not supporting the website and agree that it is not at all polite. The only reason why I posted the link is because of the info it provided.

Friends,

These are isolated incidents and I would say let Rome tend to Rome, these new age wonders are on the way out being exposed for what they really are . Nobody said it would be easy after 30 years or so of this BS.

I agree, there should not be any discussions until Rome has its own house in order.

But there is nothing preventing people from saying a prayer or two for the reform...is it ?


james
Are they on the way out? Looking at Redemptionis Sacramentum http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWRDSAC.HTM it makes me wonder just how far out things have gotten and if order can be restored. When the pope has to explain that you aren't to spit out communion or handle it like ordinary food something is seriously wrong.

What I am curious about is why there is not more active opposition to such disorder amongst conservative Roman Catholics?

Indeed, for several of those pics there's no evidence that it was a Catholic service at all. The Episcopalians wear stoles, too.

And it's pics like this that show why I'm drawn to the Roman rite.
The pictures of the bishops and archbishops and the pope are quite obviously genuine. I am not attacking the Latin Rite at all! I am drawn to it myself and my first encounter with real spirituality was when I was a boy and prayed at various neo-Gothic (old fashioned) RC churches. My argument is against the Novus Ordo and particularly the abuses that are taking place not the Latin Rite.
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« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2005, 02:57:28 PM »

I would also note that many, many of the pictures shown are in "field" conditions. The various "camoflage" cases, for example, are simply chaplains serving masses in the field. Perhaps the Traditio people would like the Army to carry porta-chapels everywhere (and they do have such things) but it is hardly always practical. One can find any number of pictures of masses on Jeep hoods ever since the army had Jeeps. Likewise, mass on a camping trip isn't going to be "pretty". Their inclusion of these pictures is either dishonest or excessively scrupulous.

The deeper issue is what stunt masses mean, and whether you can escape the problems involved with them simply by avoiding the stuts. Careful choice of parish goes a long way. And remember the old lament: "We used to have priests of gold and chalices of wood; now we have chalices of gold and priests of wood."
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« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2005, 03:02:53 PM »

While I'm at it: the pictures are so small and cropped so much that I can't tell what they're about in half the cases. The "dorito", for instance, looks to me like a quarter of an ordinary round of bread.
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« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2005, 03:18:07 PM »

It's about as worthy as looking to "Ex-Orthodox for Christ" for a subjective, honest, and truthful rhetoric on Orthodoxy. Use discretion and discernment when observing the failures of others--often times we are too eager to believe anything that supports our ideas.
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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2005, 04:07:55 PM »

Indeed, for several of those pics there's no evidence that it was a Catholic service at all. The Episcopalians wear stoles, too.

And it's pics like this that show why I'm drawn to the Roman rite.
Touche.  That is an impressive picture.
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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2005, 04:17:23 PM »

Indeed, for several of those pics there's no evidence that it was a Catholic service at all. The Episcopalians wear stoles, too.

And it's pics like this that show why I'm drawn to the Roman rite.

Production values are no guarantee of orthodoxy!
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« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2005, 05:13:55 PM »


Jennifer you are missing the point. I am not supporting the website and agree that it is not at all polite. The only reason why I posted the link is because of the info it provided.


If you don't support it, then why did you link to it?  What "info" did it provide?  It's not a reputable site so any "info" from it is not credible. 

I repeat my confusion as to why Orthodox Christians would care about the ravings of a disreputable site. 

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« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2005, 05:15:30 PM »

I'm not Roman Catholic but will speak up for them here.  Traditio isn't a credible site.  I've heard its owner is a fake priest.  He certainly posts a lot of hateful things. 

Frankly I don't understand why an Orthodox Christian would get dragged into the ravings of whacko RC trads. 



Because they sound saner than the whacko RC modernists?
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« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2005, 05:19:49 PM »

If you don't support it, then why did you link to it?  What "info" did it provide?  It's not a reputable site so any "info" from it is not credible. 

I repeat my confusion as to why Orthodox Christians would care about the ravings of a disreputable site. 



Because it isn't disreputable.  Traditio, whatever one may say about it, simply tries to collect any Latin Mass information it can and distribute it to those who want it.  I don't support their work, but I can at least see a justification for having it; I was a Roman Catholic once, and I wanted to escape the "Kumbaya" masses.  Whether we like it or not, the churches listed on Traditio do celebrate the way it was celebrated for the past 400 years.  Those people are interested in Tradition and are willing to sacrifice union with the Papacy for it.

I see great hope for the return of such people to Orthodoxy, and many have.
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« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2005, 05:29:15 PM »

Some people also visit sites like Tradition and http://www.NovusOrdoWatch.org for entertainment. When I was a web designer for an RC order of priests a number of traditionalist RCs would check out both sites daily.
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« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2005, 05:34:48 PM »

There are some answers to be found at www.latinmassmagazine.com, review the articles there.

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« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2005, 09:05:03 PM »

Jennifer, I would have to disagree. We should be concerned about this for the simple reason that the Roman Church is an Ancient Apostolic Church like the Orthodox...yes Catholicism technically started in 1054 AD but in reality a few centuries earlier when Spainiards invented the Filioque)...

But back to my point...since the Roman Church is apostolic and our Orthodox church wants to one day be re-united with the Roman See, we cannot simply say "we'd like to be united to the Roman church whenever they accept the Orthodox teachings." What about the liturgy?? The liturgy is the prime example of how we (should) practise our Orthodoxy. Also, the Roman Rite is soooo beautiful and spiritual. If the Roman Church today was Orthodox and did te traditional mass (in the vernacular) I would so go once in a while to the Mass.

Did you notice the results of Vatican II on the Church? Now, churches in North America and Europe are empty. On a side note, churches in Greece are becoming less and less full as the church continues to use incomprehensible Koine Greek and is stepping away from it's traditional eastern Mediterranean values and outlook and is going crazy to be identified as European-which today is anything but religious.
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« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2005, 09:09:28 PM »

My bad...I meant the people of Greece  (especially the city dwellers) want to be identified more with Western Europe and less with the traditional values;whereas the church leaders want desperately to keep the church "intact" by sneering at anything Western/European as barbaric.
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« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2005, 10:09:13 PM »

I would also note that many, many of the pictures shown are in "field" conditions. The various "camoflage" cases, for example, are simply chaplains serving masses in the field. Perhaps the Traditio people would like the Army to carry porta-chapels everywhere (and they do have such things) but it is hardly always practical. One can find any number of pictures of masses on Jeep hoods ever since the army had Jeeps. Likewise, mass on a camping trip isn't going to be "pretty". Their inclusion of these pictures is either dishonest or excessively scrupulous.

The deeper issue is what stunt masses mean, and whether you can escape the problems involved with them simply by avoiding the stuts. Careful choice of parish goes a long way. And remember the old lament: "We used to have priests of gold and chalices of wood; now we have chalices of gold and priests of wood."

When my dad was in Vietnam the chaplain did not wear camouflage and the chaplains were never with the men in combat so I can't see why they would need to. ÂÂ
Quote
The deeper issue is what stunt masses mean, and whether you can escape the problems involved with them simply by avoiding the stuts.
That is exactly what I am trying to get at. What are they trying to prove by using pancakes as a host? What is the rationale behind an archbishop wearing a cheesehead? Do they think they can fuse prayer and goofiness?

It's about as worthy as looking to "Ex-Orthodox for Christ" for a subjective, honest, and truthful rhetoric on Orthodoxy.
I don't think I would go that far.

If you don't support it, then why did you link to it? What "info" did it provide? It's not a reputable site so any "info" from it is not credible.

I repeat my confusion as to why Orthodox Christians would care about the ravings of a disreputable site.
Jennifer you are still not getting it so I will try to break it down.
Quote
If you don't support it, then why did you link to it?
I don't agree with everything Gerhard Schroeder says but I would agree with him that Germany has a serious unemployment problem. I don't think that www.traditio.com is always accurate or even fair but the page I linked does have some good photos and info.
Quote
What "info" did it provide?

Well that Pope John Paul II took part in the liturgical craziness and even encouraged it a bit. That Cardinal Mahoney is a real . . . well I won't say it but believe or not Mahoney is crook on top of performing crazy masses. Read this: http://www.aztlan.net/boyle2.htm I was shocked to read that and I hope you are too! That Archbishop Charles Chaput likes to dress up like an Indian for mass. That Archbishop Timothy Dolan wore a cheeshead to mass and even if you are in Wisconsin and are a Packers fan it is still unacceptable. That Archbishop Anthony Pilla had dancers at a mass. That Bishop Allen Vigneron performed a type of tea ceremony wearing his liturgical vestments which are only to be worn for liturgical functions. Do I really need to go on? Did you even look at the page? These are not arguments these are facts.
Quote
It's not a reputable site so any "info" from it is not credible.
That is quite a stretch considering the info on the page I cited is easily verifiable from what I have recently found Cardinal Mahoney is known by many reputable Roman Catholics to be quite libertine.

Quote
I repeat my confusion as to why Orthodox Christians would care about the ravings of a disreputable site.
There has been a lot of talk, mostly on the RC side about some great coming reunion. I think it is insane to even think of such a thing when RC bishops are doing things like this and getting away with it. I also have Novus Ordo RC relatives and SSPX RC relatives so I decided to learn more and then I came to this forum so that I could ask other RCs or former RCs or Orthodox or anyone else for that matter interested what they thought and felt and see if any of them would like to discuss and/or argue it with me.

Jennifer I know you are a former RC so should I assume all your comments are biased and therefore suspect? I don't think so. If anything I would think you would know firsthand what is wrong with Roman Catholicism. I know when I was a kid and attended Easter mass and saw female "eucharistic ministers" carrying large chalices of wine that something was wrong. I was only eleven but I figured out right away that this is not what it was like when my dad was growing up. Can we at least agree that it was wrong for Pope Paul VI to suppress the Tridentine Mass and put in its place the terribly flawed Novus Ordo? Can we also agree that an Archbishop should be deposed when he wears a cheese head to mass or allows on of his presbyters to use cookies for the host?



Because it isn't disreputable. Traditio, whatever one may say about it, simply tries to collect any Latin Mass information it can and distribute it to those who want it. I don't support their work, but I can at least see a justification for having it; I was a Roman Catholic once, and I wanted to escape the "Kumbaya" masses. Whether we like it or not, the churches listed on Traditio do celebrate the way it was celebrated for the past 400 years. Those people are interested in Tradition and are willing to sacrifice union with the Papacy for it.

I see great hope for the return of such people to Orthodoxy, and many have.
I would say some of what is says is rather mean and that the site does have a heavy bias which makes much of what is says suspect. Calling Novus Ordo masses "messes" is rather mean and childish in my opinion. But I am happy you left and can understand where I am coming from.
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Those people are interested in Tradition and are willing to sacrifice union with the Papacy for it.
Well I would say some may come back. St.Augustine's in Denver is a good example of what an Orthodox Latin Rite Mass (the Mass is said entirely in Latin at St.Augustine's unlike most Western Rite parishes) parish should look like and if we had more I think more RC traditionalists would convert. However when it comes to most RC traditionalists whether in SSPX, SSPV, or even more rigid groups like St.Gertrude's http://www.sgg.org/ that use the even older 1914 Missal, I don't think they are interested in Orthodoxy and in my experience are usually outspokenly against "reunion". They tend to take pre-Vatican II doctrine very seriously and do not waver.

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6551.msg85394#msg85394 date=1120166955]
Some people also visit sites like Tradition and http://www.NovusOrdoWatch.org for entertainment. When I was a web designer for an RC order of priests a number of traditionalist RCs would check out both sites daily.
[/quote]
I admit this fascination of mine and others is rather odd but I just cannot help but find myself intrigued by the weirdness in the modern RC church. That's also probably why I occasionally watch EWTN.

There are some answers to be found at www.latinmassmagazine.com, review the articles there.

james
I have been to that site a few times and find many of its articles interesting. What comes up occasionally is the SSPX asking why the RC church no longer calls the Orthodox schismatic but refers to Archbishop Lefevbre and his bishops as such? James you are a Latin Mass RC right? I recall you having that listed once. I am curious what inclines you to believe that the RC church can clean up the abuse. Some even tell me that the American church is in virtual schism with Rome and that they would not be suprised if some time in the future the American Roman Catholic church splits with the Vatican permanently.
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« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2005, 10:20:50 PM »

Jennifer, I would have to disagree. We should be concerned about this for the simple reason that the Roman Church is an Ancient Apostolic Church like the Orthodox...yes Catholicism technically started in 1054 AD but in reality a few centuries earlier when Spainiards invented the Filioque)...

But back to my point...since the Roman Church is apostolic and our Orthodox church wants to one day be re-united with the Roman See, we cannot simply say "we'd like to be united to the Roman church whenever they accept the Orthodox teachings." What about the liturgy?? The liturgy is the prime example of how we (should) practise our Orthodoxy. Also, the Roman Rite is soooo beautiful and spiritual. If the Roman Church today was Orthodox and did te traditional mass (in the vernacular) I would so go once in a while to the Mass.

Did you notice the results of Vatican II on the Church? Now, churches in North America and Europe are empty. On a side note, churches in Greece are becoming less and less full as the church continues to use incomprehensible Koine Greek and is stepping away from it's traditional eastern Mediterranean values and outlook and is going crazy to be identified as European-which today is anything but religious.
Well I would not say that the Orthodox Church is seeking reunion. The Roman Patriarchate is simply vacant but should the Church choose it can revive it. The current Roman Pontiffs promote heresy and therefore cannot be said to be Apostolic successors. Also I am suprised you praise the Latin mass but are against the continued use of Koine in the Liturgy. It is simply a matter of taking the time to learn a bit of the language the same as RCs did before Vatican II. I usually say the Lord's prayer and the Creed in Latin because I like the sound of it better. For example in English we say, "And was crucified, also for us, under Pontius Pilate and suffered and was buried . . ." Whereas in Latin the sentence is, "Crucifixus etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato passus et sepultus es . . . " Perhaps I am crazy but I just think it sounds better and it does not take very long to learn these prayers by heart so that when attending mass you know what is going on. The same goes for Koine. The problem is not the Church using Koine it is just that people don't care. Vatican II changed to the vernacular but did that encourage more people to come?
Other than that I agree with everything you said.
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« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2005, 10:31:49 AM »

Hi Sabbas,
just to clarify, I was praising the actual Latin Rite Mass itself, in brackets I said that I liked it "in the vernacular". So the same thing we do here. For example at my Greek Orthodox Church, the priest switches from one petition to another from english to greek and the if the chanters knew better english they would do the chants in english too.

Also, I personally like the Koine greek but I don't see the use of it beign used when it is incomprehensible. Or maybe it should be used once in a while. But for Greeks in Greece, the modern greek should be used so ppl can understand whats happening. This doesn't mean we have to let go and have our own "Constantinople I and II" like the Vatican councils.

I'm actually quite surprised that Greek Americans are so insistent on using greek lots of the times but don't care when other traditions are replaced like the use of the organ instead of chanting, the beardless priests, etc...not that I have anything wrong with these things themselves- just the outcome of dropping traditions could lead from one thing to another until we become watered down like the catholic church is today.
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« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2005, 10:36:32 AM »

Oh yeah, sorry Sabbas I rambled on instead of answering your question directly...

As for Vatican II changing the Mass to the vernacular, that was not the issue. That was actually the only thing good out of Vat. II but the problem lies in everything else...the altar girls, the priest facing the ppl...again these things themselves aren't the problem but the outcome is that this total lack of respect for tradition also leads to people having a lack for respect for the church. When the church itse;f starts to become easy going and non-traditional, what incentive drives the people to come? When they see these abuses they probably won't feel compelled and have a "why bother?" attitude.
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« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2005, 11:24:19 AM »

the altar girls, the priest facing the ppl...again these things themselves aren't the problem but the outcome is that this total lack of respect for tradition also leads to people having a lack for respect for the church. When the church itse;f starts to become easy going and non-traditional, what incentive drives the people to come? When they see these abuses they probably won't feel compelled and have a "why bother?" attitude.

You know, I just don't buy it. All those megachurches out there are obviously driving people away in droves this way.

See, the only people who think these are abuses are traditionalists, and the priests and bishops behind all this tend to believe, I'd wager, that the traditionalists are a captive audience because they are the sort of people who also take the obligation to show up no matter what very seriously.

Now, stunt masses are one thing. I think they are counter-productive because I think the gimmicky quality turns people off, but that's another issue. Versus populum is in my opinion less desirable, but after this many decades anyone under thirty is probably mourning for the good old days they've never seen. It's not the direction the priest faces that's a problem, but what's inside, and what comes out his mouth. Al Kimel, in all my days with him as my rector, never celebrated ad orientam once. It was his sermons and the seriousness with which he took the liturgy that made him a good priest, not the details of his praxis.
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« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2005, 11:34:53 AM »

Disreputable website or not, this stuff has been going on for years. I saw it myself - dancing nuns, buddhist-like liturgies, people dressing up.  Oh its so sensitive to bring the Mass to the people, so why not worship in the garbage can?  I feel sorry for the average RC who has to witness this  PC nonsense.  But we are not immune either - look at the Canberra meeting with Orthodox Hierarchs, EP and MP mingling with witchdoctors.  The theme song (or hymn, or troparion??) was "Bunkum, Bunkum" - that's what it sounded like to me.  Forget the union with Rome and open our hearts to the RCs and pull them into the Ship.  Let the touchy-feelies in Rome and Constantinople do their own thing while we strive to mainiain and suffer for the True Faith.
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« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2005, 12:03:22 PM »

Sabbas,

There are many "traditionalists" that believe the American RCC is in schism, and they are not sede-van's either, but there are many trying to change things . If you look at those added innovations ruining the RCC, they originated here in the US, most connected to feminism.

I might be a old rite RC but I do lean Eastward on many things, no I believe the Church of Rome is being pushed out of its 40 yr  wandering, but it is going to be a battle to rid it of the smoke of satan, that's where it needs assistance from the East.

People talk of war, well it is there, and it is a spiritual one, for a uncountable number of souls.

Ridicule will not help, it strengthens the legions of darkness.

james
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« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2005, 04:45:15 PM »

St. Augustine's in Denver is a good example of what an Orthodox Latin Rite Mass (the Mass is said entirely in Latin at St.Augustine's unlike most Western Rite parishes) parish should look like and if we had more I think more RC traditionalists would convert.

Sabbas,

The situation which you are describing above is absolutely unbelievable! It sounds as if you are talking about a "reverse uniatism", where in your opinion, if the Orthodox Church's Western Rite Mass is made to be absolutely just like the old Roman Rite Mass, then we'll obviously be able to get the RC's to jump ship and join the Church.

Now I can see why Roman Catholics would think that the Western Rite is some kind of trickery used to try to and steal sheep from their pews, because of statements like your own above. Your words only fuel this fire and I can't believe that you would be under the assumption that this would be an "okay" or ideal situation.

Traditional Roman Catholics stay with the Catholic Church because they see how the Pope of Rome is infallible, they believe in purgatory, the believe in the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of the BVM. They would never become Orthodox just because we can put on a liturgy which is what they are accustomed to!

In Christ,
Aaron
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« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2005, 05:01:28 PM »

Aaron,

I do not believe the Pope is infallible, now a sort of purification state maybe, matters concerning the Virgin Mary / Theotokos I tend to leave in a mystical state.

Is the Almighty going to zap me ? I doubt it, I am not going/entering paradise due to the Pope.


james
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« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2005, 08:33:16 PM »

Sabbas,

The situation which you are describing above is absolutely unbelievable! It sounds as if you are talking about a "reverse uniatism", where in your opinion, if the Orthodox Church's Western Rite Mass is made to be absolutely just like the old Roman Rite Mass, then we'll obviously be able to get the RC's to jump ship and join the Church.

Now I can see why Roman Catholics would think that the Western Rite is some kind of trickery used to try to and steal sheep from their pews, because of statements like your own above. Your words only fuel this fire and I can't believe that you would be under the assumption that this would be an "okay" or ideal situation.

Traditional Roman Catholics stay with the Catholic Church because they see how the Pope of Rome is infallible, they believe in purgatory, the believe in the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of the BVM. They would never become Orthodox just because we can put on a liturgy which is what they are accustomed to!

In Christ,
Aaron
What is wrong with the Mass being in Latin? There are alot of people out there that believe in the Orthodoxy of the Mass and want to be Orthodox. No one is forcing them to be there! The people in the Western Rite are people who want to live as their Orthodox forbearers did before heretics took control of the Patriarchate of Rome. What is wrong with that?
By the way where did I say that the goal of the Western Rite is to persuade RCs to "jump ship"?
I also did not say that the Orthodox Western Rite should make itself as much as possible like the Tridentine Mass just before Vatican II?
Why are you so harsh and critical of the Western Rite? I am sorrying for repeating myself but I am shocked that you can be so cruel toward those who simply want to be Orthodox and experience the Liturgy used throughout the West before 1054.
Your post also shocks me because you seem to believe the Church has some duty to the Roman Catholics to not allow its members to have the Latin Mass but instead tell them to go to Rome even though they do not believe in the Roman Catholic doctrines you mentioned.
Quote
Traditional Roman Catholics stay with the Catholic Church because they see how the Pope of Rome is infallible, they believe in purgatory, the believe in the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of the BVM. They would never become Orthodox just because we can put on a liturgy which is what they are accustomed to!
If you will look at my previous post
Well I would say some may come back. St.Augustine's in Denver is a good example of what an Orthodox Latin Rite Mass (the Mass is said entirely in Latin at St.Augustine's unlike most Western Rite parishes) parish should look like and if we had more I think more RC traditionalists would convert. However when it comes to most RC traditionalists whether in SSPX, SSPV, or even more rigid groups like St.Gertrude's http://www.sgg.org/ that use the even older 1914 Missal, I don't think they are interested in Orthodoxy and in my experience are usually outspokenly against "reunion".
I clearly acknowledged that most RC traditionalilsts would not simply come to Orthodoxy because of its Western Rite. However if you spent some time with RC traditionalists and talked to them you would see that the reason many of them stay is because they love the Latin Mass and some are quite open to discussing why the Orthodox Church considers doctrines such as the IC of the Virgin Mary and Papal Infallibility heretical.

I am sorry for being rude but I just can't understand why you are attacking your Orthodox brothers at St.Augustine's. My former priest, at the Eastern Rite Orthodox Church I attend, spent several years serving the Mass in Latin at one of the Wetstern Rite parishes and he told me that there is nothing un-Orthodox about the Western Rite and the Western Rite is not some form of Orthodox uniatism and from what I understand many Orthodox bishops are outspokenly against it. The Western Rite only exists because of lay people and a few presbyters who are striving to revive their heritage. If you read "The Lion" http://www.westernorthodox.com/stmark/lion/ you'll see they are just as Orthodox as anybody in the Eastern Rite.

Also don't assume I don't know where you are coming from. In previous discussions I have mentioned that I think the Western Rite is in many ways purposely not following the Western Rite as it was practiced before the Schism particularly in the area of pews and some parishes using an organ.

Hi Sabbas,
just to clarify, I was praising the actual Latin Rite Mass itself, in brackets I said that I liked it "in the vernacular". So the same thing we do here. For example at my Greek Orthodox Church, the priest switches from one petition to another from english to greek and the if the chanters knew better english they would do the chants in english too.

Also, I personally like the Koine greek but I don't see the use of it beign used when it is incomprehensible. Or maybe it should be used once in a while. But for Greeks in Greece, the modern greek should be used so ppl can understand whats happening. This doesn't mean we have to let go and have our own "Constantinople I and II" like the Vatican councils.

I'm actually quite surprised that Greek Americans are so insistent on using greek lots of the times but don't care when other traditions are replaced like the use of the organ instead of chanting, the beardless priests, etc...not that I have anything wrong with these things themselves- just the outcome of dropping traditions could lead from one thing to another until we become watered down like the catholic church is today.
Sorry I raced through your post and did not see that. But still I stand by my position. Latin is the proper language and it is not hard to learn the prayers of the Mass. People in the West did it for nearly two thousand years. This page shows the Gregorian Canon and this parallel English translation is how people followed the Mass in the "ol' days". Usually people would learn the prayers as they grew up and would seldom have to check the Missal to follow along. I also just think it sounds better. Ecce Agnus Dei, ecce qui tollit peccata mundi. Domine, nom sum dignus ut intres sub tectum meum; sed tantum dic verbo, et sanabitur anima mea. But again maybe I'm just crazy   Tongue 
Disreputable website or not, this stuff has been going on for years. I saw it myself - dancing nuns, buddhist-like liturgies, people dressing up. Oh its so sensitive to bring the Mass to the people, so why not worship in the garbage can? I feel sorry for the average RC who has to witness this PC nonsense. But we are not immune either - look at the Canberra meeting with Orthodox Hierarchs, EP and MP mingling with witchdoctors. The theme song (or hymn, or troparion??) was "Bunkum, Bunkum" - that's what it sounded like to me. Forget the union with Rome and open our hearts to the RCs and pull them into the Ship. Let the touchy-feelies in Rome and Constantinople do their own thing while we strive to mainiain and suffer for the True Faith.
I agree Canberra was bad but it was no where near what goes on in the Roman Catholic church.
Sabbas,

There are many "traditionalists" that believe the American RCC is in schism, and they are not sede-van's either, but there are many trying to change things . If you look at those added innovations ruining the RCC, they originated here in the US, most connected to feminism.

I might be a old rite RC but I do lean Eastward on many things, no I believe the Church of Rome is being pushed out of its 40 yr wandering, but it is going to be a battle to rid it of the smoke of satan, that's where it needs assistance from the East.

People talk of war, well it is there, and it is a spiritual one, for a uncountable number of souls.

Ridicule will not help, it strengthens the legions of darkness.

james
I am not ridiculing the Roman Catholic church but shocked and intrigued by much of what goes on. I am also curious what specifically you would point to as a return to tradition. Yes Pope Benedict XVI's recent book on the Liturgy is good but what measures are being taken?

See, the only people who think these are abuses are traditionalists,
I would disagree. Many conservative but Novus Ordo RCs seriously dislike the lay ministries and in particular think that receiving communion from a lay person is wrong and goes entirely against Roman Catholic dogma.
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« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2005, 09:23:31 PM »

Quote
What is wrong with the Mass being in Latin?

Absolutely nothing.

Quote
The people in the Western Rite are people who want to live as their Orthodox forbearers did before heretics took control of the Patriarchate of Rome. What is wrong with that?

See my reply above..

Quote
By the way where did I say that the goal of the Western Rite is to persuade RCs to "jump ship"?
I also did not say that the Orthodox Western Rite should make itself as much as possible like the Tridentine Mass just before Vatican II?

I know you did not say it "outrightly", but it appeared to be implied when you said"

Quote
if we had more I think more RC traditionalists would convert.

Which I took to mean that if the Orthodox Western Rite Churches "had more... Orthodox Latin Rite Mass (the Mass is said entirely in Latin...", then traditionalists would obviously come over in droves.

Quote
Why are you so harsh and critical of the Western Rite?

I'm not.

Quote
I am shocked that you can be so cruel toward those who simply want to be Orthodox and experience the Liturgy used throughout the West before 1054.

You shouldn't be shocked, because I wasn't being cruel towards any Orthodox of the Western Rite. I was merely posting a response to your implication which I quoted above.

Quote
Your post also shocks me because you seem to believe the Church has some duty to the Roman Catholics to not allow its members to have the Latin Mass but instead tell them to go to Rome even though they do not believe in the Roman Catholic doctrines you mentioned.

I don't seem to think anything that you are implying, because I am not. If you want a pre-Roman Catholic western liturgy, why not the Sarum Rite? That would be more logical to me than a Tridentine High Mass, in Latin.

Quote
However if you spent some time with RC traditionalists and talked to them you would see that the reason many of them stay is because they love the Latin Mass

I have - I dabbled in the traditionalist scene for a short period of time many moons ago.

Quote
some are quite open to discussing why the Orthodox Church considers doctrines such as the IC of the Virgin Mary and Papal Infallibility heretical.

I never came across any of this stripe before, so maybe you have been lucky.

Quote
I am sorry for being rude but I just can't understand why you are attacking your Orthodox brothers at St.Augustine's.

If you will read over this reply, it should become evident that I was not attacking anyone of the Western Rite, nor anyone at St. Augustine's.

Quote
My former priest, at the Eastern Rite Orthodox Church I attend, spent several years serving the Mass in Latin at one of the Wetstern Rite parishes and he told me that there is nothing un-Orthodox about the Western Rite and the Western Rite is not some form of Orthodox uniatism and from what I understand many Orthodox bishops are outspokenly against it.

I do not believe it to be a form of uniatism either, unless one proposes that if the Western Rite communites only offered more Tridentine Masses in Latin, then "more RC traditionalists would convert" - as you said.

As I said earlier, if you want pre-schism western praxis, why not the Sarum Rite?

As illustrated here:

http://www.orthodoxresurgence.co.uk/Petroc/

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good Latin High Mass as much as the next guy, I am just saying that truly pre-schism western liturgy would be Sarum and not a Tridentine Mass.

In Christ,
Aaron
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« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2005, 09:49:25 PM »

Quote
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good Latin High Mass as much as the next guy, I am just saying that truly pre-schism western liturgy would be Sarum and not a Tridentine Mass.

Except the Tridentine mass is simply the mass of the Roman rite purged of the accretions that developed in the period between the schism and Trent. There's nothing particularly post-schism about it. And even if you don't accept it as a legitimate Orthodox rite, the Sarum rite, and others like the Ambrosian and Bragan, or even very minor usages like York or Cologne, are virtually identical with the Roman rite.

Looking at the Ambrosian rite, for example, the most noticeable differences between its mass and the Roman mass are that it doesn't have the Introibo and Confiteor, has an ingressus instead of an introit, the Kyrie comes after the Gloria, there's a psalmellus instead of a gradual, the deacon and subdeacon stand at either end of the altar instead of behind the priest during the Canon, the lavabo is right before the consecration, the priest extends his hands in the form of a cross during at "unde et memores" and there is no Agnus Dei except at requiem masses. In other words, there are a lot of niggling differences, but nothing that is worth declaring one mass Orthodox and the other not. They are so similar that if you accept one as Orthodox, you have to accept the other.
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« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2005, 11:38:42 PM »

Absolutely nothing.

See my reply above..

I know you did not say it "outrightly", but it appeared to be implied when you said"

Which I took to mean that if the Orthodox Western Rite Churches "had more... Orthodox Latin Rite Mass (the Mass is said entirely in Latin...", then traditionalists would obviously come over in droves.

I'm not.

You shouldn't be shocked, because I wasn't being cruel towards any Orthodox of the Western Rite. I was merely posting a response to your implication which I quoted above.

I don't seem to think anything that you are implying, because I am not. If you want a pre-Roman Catholic western liturgy, why not the Sarum Rite? That would be more logical to me than a Tridentine High Mass, in Latin.

I have - I dabbled in the traditionalist scene for a short period of time many moons ago.

I never came across any of this stripe before, so maybe you have been lucky.

If you will read over this reply, it should become evident that I was not attacking anyone of the Western Rite, nor anyone at St. Augustine's.

I do not believe it to be a form of uniatism either, unless one proposes that if the Western Rite communites only offered more Tridentine Masses in Latin, then "more RC traditionalists would convert" - as you said.

As I said earlier, if you want pre-schism western praxis, why not the Sarum Rite?

As illustrated here:

http://www.orthodoxresurgence.co.uk/Petroc/

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good Latin High Mass as much as the next guy, I am just saying that truly pre-schism western liturgy would be Sarum and not a Tridentine Mass.

In Christ,
Aaron
Sorry for over-reacting in my last post. What I was trying to say was: I think if there were more Western Rite parishes that serve the Latin Mass more disaffected RCs and some traditionalists, certainly not a large percentage, would find it easier to come to the Orthodox Church. I know that is the case with my Dad who is going to be brought into the Church with me on the Feast of the Transfiguration. He has been a catechumen for over a year and three months and went through many mental trials because he grew up pre-Vatican II and had an attachment to the Latin Mass. He has come around to the Eastern Rite but he still tells me it would be much easier for him if there was a Western Rite parish we could go to. I also know that my sister, who was raised Novus Ordo and then left to join SSPX with her husband, is flexible when discussing what Orthodoxy considers to be heretical about Roman Catholicism. Personally I find it just as easy to attend Latin Mass as the Eastern Liturgy and would like to be able to attend Latin Mass.
However, like I mentioned before, I have strong reservations about the Western Rite as it exists in the Antiochian Archdiocese due to the allowance of organs, what I perceive to be a stubborn persistance on the part of various members of the the Western Rite to continue venerating RC saints like Francis of Assisi and Bernard of Clairvaux, and many members not fully rejecting of the heretical beliefs of Roman Catholicism. For example one member of a Western Rite parish who posts here has stated several times that he believes before Vatican II that the Roman Catholic church had the Mysteries and cannot be said to have been heretical. While I admit I am curious about Bernard of Clairvaux and the even the veneration some in the Western Rite have for the Martyred King Charles I I cannot say I think organs should be allowed to overpower the beauty of Gregorian chant nor do I think a Western Rite priest should allow parishoners to believe whatever they about pre-Vatican II Roman Catholicism if that is indeed what is happening.
I also have said that I would like to see a Western Rite parish that is exactly like what a parish in the Orthodox West would have looked like which would mean no pews and no organs. It is also out of this desire for a resurrection of the pre-Schism West that I would like the Western Rite in the Antiochian Archdioceses to allow the use of the Gallican Liturgy and the Lorra-Stowe Missal of Ireland.

Except the Tridentine mass is simply the mass of the Roman rite purged of the accretions that developed in the period between the schism and Trent. There's nothing particularly post-schism about it. And even if you don't accept it as a legitimate Orthodox rite, the Sarum rite, and others like the Ambrosian and Bragan, or even very minor usages like York or Cologne, are virtually identical with the Roman rite.

Looking at the Ambrosian rite, for example, the most noticeable differences between its mass and the Roman mass are that it doesn't have the Introibo and Confiteor, has an ingressus instead of an introit, the Kyrie comes after the Gloria, there's a psalmellus instead of a gradual, the deacon and subdeacon stand at either end of the altar instead of behind the priest during the Canon, the lavabo is right before the consecration, the priest extends his hands in the form of a cross during at "unde et memores" and there is no Agnus Dei except at requiem masses. In other words, there are a lot of niggling differences, but nothing that is worth declaring one mass Orthodox and the other not. They are so similar that if you accept one as Orthodox, you have to accept the other.
Thank you for pointing that out! The Gallican Liturgy and the Celtic Liturgy seem to be the only Western Liturgies that differ significantly with the Gregorian Liturgy though it is difficult to know just how different they were particularly with the Celtic Liturgy due to the dearth of information that has come down to us.

Let me add here that when I started this discussion I meant to make the point that perhaps the biggest obstacle to some future reunion of the RCs and the Orthodox is the Novus Ordo and also the way priests and bishops are allowed or even encouraged to do wacky during mass. Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi! What they express in their Novus Ordo masses are not Orthodox by a long shot and never can be. We as Orthodox do not condone the turning around of the altar or the laity handing out communion so how could we possibly join with the RCs even if many of our bishops continue to white-wash issues like the filioque and created grace? One thing the Liturgy manifests is the organic development of the Church through its unwavering adherence to Holy Tradition and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. What the Novus Ordo shows is a scrapping of Tradition and disrespect toward the Covenant our Lord established with us. To condone it in any way is wrong. Even in the most conservative of Novus Ordo RC parishes one cannot help but feel that something is very wrong when the priest is facing you and holds us the host and then the chalice as if he is worshipping you. Imagine going to Liturgy and having the priest face you when he says, "We offer unto Thee Thine own of Thine own."

I do not believe there will be any reunion in the future unless some extremely big changes are made, which I can't imagine how they ever would be implemented or accepted by modern RCs, but I would say a big thing they would have to do is go back to the Latin Mass and excommunicate all who refuse to denounce the Novus Ordo as an abomination created by the humanist and Marxist leaning Cardinal Bugnini. Can you imagine such a thing evey happening? Neither can I.
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« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2005, 01:17:01 AM »


nor do I think a Western Rite priest should allow parishoners to believe whatever they about pre-Vatican II Roman Catholicism if that is indeed what is happening.


An Orthodox Christian is not forbidden to believe that the pre or post Vatican II Roman Catholic mysteries were "valid."  I'm not western rite but believe that the RCC has valid sacraments.  It's been my experience that most real life Orthodox Christians agree with me. So it's not a question of a priest "allowing" a parishioner to believe this but rather that Orthodoxy doesn't say one way or the other so agnosticism on this point is allowed. 

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« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2005, 11:48:37 AM »

Jennifer, do you know the Orthodox Church's official position so I may read it?

Augustine, under the thread Is the catholic holy water "holy"? seems to disagree you with you. So I am confused.ÂÂ  Huh

Would appreaciate it.

~Victor

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« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2005, 01:51:52 PM »

Jennifer, do you know the Orthodox Church's official position so I may read it?

Augustine, under the thread Is the catholic holy water "holy"? seems to disagree you with you. So I am confused.  Huh

Would appreaciate it.

~Victor



Victor, the Orthodox Church has no official position regarding Roman Catholic sacraments.  Some Orthodox believe they have no grace.  Other Orthodox believe they have grace. 

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« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2005, 02:54:59 PM »

Victor, the Orthodox Church has no official position regarding Roman Catholic sacraments.ÂÂ  Some Orthodox believe they have no grace.ÂÂ  Other Orthodox believe they have grace.

This is modern mistake about the Orthodox teaching on Grace being in the "Mysteries" only of the Church. Today people are just confused by the overuse of economy, making them think that the Orthodox Church accepts Grace being in the "Mysteries" outside the Church, which She does not.ÂÂ  As has been covered many times before here, when someone is received by the 2nd Rite of Chrismation, it is not because their baptism was considered Grace-filled, but is done out of economy IF the form was correct at the choosing of the Bishop.

As the anathema against ecumenism says, "Those who attack the Church of Christ by teaching that Christ's Church is divided into so-called "branches" which differ in doctrine and way of life, or that the Church does not exist visibly, but will be formed in the future when all "branches" or sects or denominations, and even religions will be united into one body; and who do not distinguish the priesthood and mysteries of the Church from those of the heretics, but say that the baptism and eucharist of heretics is effectual for salvation; therefore, to those who knowingly have communion with these aforementioned heretics or who advocate, disseminate, or defend their new heresy of Ecumenism under the pretext of brotherly love or the supposed unification of separated Christians, Anathema!"

For those that think ROCOR is schismatic, I provide this, In his booklet Apostolic Succession, Fr. Gregory Rogers says about Grace of mysteries inside and outside the Church, "Orthodox see this clearly in our doctrine of Apostolic Succession. We emphatically maintain that
the succession only exists (and that it only makes sense) within the community of the Church.
This reflects the Orthodox communal view of grace. It seems that the corresponding statement
about baptism is the most Orthodox: that baptism is a sacramental action of the community that
unites an outsider with that community. Similar statements can be made about the other
mysteries: they are communal actions of the Church and can be understood only in context of
the community. By their very definition as actions and celebrations of the community, they
cannot exist outside the community
.

Saint Theophan the Recluse says it clearly in one sentence, " For outside Orthodox there is NO grace"

And for those saying the Roman Catholic CHurch was never anathematized, here is just one of the times it was:

The Decrees of the Pan-Orthodox Councils of 1583 and 1593

SIGILLION

of the Patriarchal formulation of an encyclical to Orthodox Christians
throughout the world not to accept the modernistic Paschalion, or calendar
of the innovated Menologion, but to keep what was once for all and well-
formulated by the three hundred and eighteen Holy God-bearing Fathers
of the First Ecumenical Council, under penalty of penance and anathema.

To all the genuine Christian children of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ of the East residing in Trigovysti and throughout the world, be grace and peace and mercy from God Almighty.

No small turbulence overtook that ancient Ark, when, violently beset by billows, it floated upon the surface of the waters, and had not the Lord God remembered Noah and seen fit to still the water, there would have been no hope for it at all. Thus also in regard to the New Ark of our Church, against which misbelievers have launched an implacable war upon us, by means of these presents we have decided to leave a note that you may have in what is herein written the means of upholding and defending your Orthodoxy against such enemies more safely and surely. But, lest the composition as a whole be weary to the simpler folks, we have decided to embody the matter in common language, wording it as follows (in Common Language):

From old Rome have come certain persons who learned there to wear Latin habits. The worst of it is how, from being Romans of Rumelia bred and born, they not only have changed their faith, but they even wage war upon the Orthodox dogmas and truths of the Eastern Church which have been delivered to us by Christ and the divine Apostles and the Holy Councils of the Holy Fathers. Therefore, cutting off these persons as rotten members, we command:

1) That whoever does not confess with heart and mouth that he is a child of the Eastern Church baptized in Orthodox style, and that the Holy Spirit proceeds out of only the Father, essentially and hypostatically, as Christ says in the Gospel, shall be outside of our Church and shall be anathematized.

2) That whoever does not confess that at the Mystery of the Holy Communion the laity must also partake of both kinds, of the Precious Body and Blood, but instead says that he will partake only of the body, and that that is sufficient because therein is both flesh and blood, when as a matter of fact Christ died and administered each separately, and they who fail to keep such customs, let all such persons be anathematized.

3) That whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ at the Mystic Supper had unleavened bread (made without yeast), like that of the Jews, and not leavened bread, that is to say, bread raised with yeast, let him depart far away from us and let him be anathema as one having Jewish views and those of Apollinarius and bringing dogmas of the Armenians into the Church, on which account let him be doubly anathema.

4) Whoever says that our Christ and God, when he comes to judge us, does not come to judge souls together with bodies, or embodied souls, but instead comes to sentence only bodies, let him be anathema.

5) Whoever says that the souls of Christians who repented while in the world but failed to perform their penance go to a purgatory of fire when they die, where there is flame and punishment, and are purified, which is simply an ancient Greek myth, and those who, like Origen, think that hell is not everlasting, and thereby afford or offer the liberty or incentive to sin, let him and all such persons be anathema.

6) That whoever says that the Pope is the head of the Church, and not Christ, and that he has authority to admit persons to Paradise with his letters of indulgence or other passports, and can forgive sins as many as a person may commit if such person pay money to receive from him indulgences, i.e. licenses to sin, let every such person be anathema.

7) That whoever does not follow the customs of the Church as the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils decreed, and Holy Pascha, and the Menologion with which they did well in making it a law that we should follow it, and wishes to follow the newly-invented Paschalion and the New Menologion of the atheist astronomers of the Pope, and opposes all those things and wishes to overthrow and destroy the dogmas and customs of the Church which have been handed down by our fathers, let him suffer anathema and be put out of the Church of Christ and out of the Congregation of the Faithful.

8) That ye pious and Orthodox Christians remain faithful in what ye have been taught and have been born and brought up in, and when the time calls for it and there be need, that your very blood be shed in order to safeguard the Faith handed down by our Fathers and your confession: and that ye beware of such persons as have been described or referred to in the foregoing paragraphs, in order that our Lord Jesus Christ may help you and at the same time may the prayer of our mediocrity be with all of you: amen.

Done in the year of the God-man 1583 (MDLXXXIII), year of indiction 12, November 20.

+ Jeremiah of Constantinople
+ Sylvester of Alexandria
+ Sophronius of Jerusalem

In the presence of the rest of the prelates at the Council.


Here are some good links for this information:

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/letters_from_convert.htm
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« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2005, 06:22:32 PM »

I won't argue that ROCOR is schismatic but I also wouldn't argue that ROCOR's position is the official Orthodox position. 

I repeat, there is no official position about the validity of Roman Catholic sacraments. 

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« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2005, 09:27:27 PM »

Jennifer that was not the position of ROCOR mentioned but a Pan-Orthodox Council. Please read the post!

Lets not get bogged down here. The point is you cannot be Orthodox without denouncing Roman Catholicism as heresy. There is only One, Holy, Apostolic, and Catholic Church. That is the official position of the Orthodox Church. This is why the Western Rite exists. Why else would they leave the Roman Catholic church unless they wanted to join themselves to the Church which alone has the Mysteries?
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« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2005, 10:18:31 PM »

I know plenty of good pious Orthodox Christians who don't go around "denouncing" Roman Catholics as heretics.  You're correct that we believe that some of the teachings of Roman Catholicism are heresies.  However, that does not mean that we "denounce" them. 

BTW, I know some good pious Orthodox priests who believe that there may be grace in Roman Catholic sacraments.  I know a priest who used to pray before the Blessed Sacrament in an RC parish.  I'm sure you'd "denounce" him but he's been at this much longer than you or me so I'll pay more attention to him. 

I'm going to comment once again on how different the on-line Orthodox world is from the real-life Orthodox world for any of our visitors.  In a real Orthodox church, you don't hear "denunciations" of heresy.  Real Orthodox people are much more concerned with their own salvation than "denouncing" others.  Also, real Orthodox people have affection for other traditional Christians.  Most of us are related to non-Orthodox. 

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« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2005, 09:15:07 AM »

Jennifer,

Quote
I know plenty of good pious Orthodox Christians who don't go around "denouncing" Roman Catholics as heretics.  You're correct that we believe that some of the teachings of Roman Catholicism are heresies.  However, that does not mean that we "denounce" them.

Good point - unless the topic is pressed, or the Orthodox faith is being attacked in some wise, there is no need to focus on this.  Certainly, it's not healthy for one to walk around pre-occupied with how wrong everyone else is.

Quote
BTW, I know some good pious Orthodox priests who believe that there may be grace in Roman Catholic sacraments.

I think it's healthy that they're stressing that word - may.  In the end, I think it's fair to say that this topic has been made all the more confusing by a heretical type of "ecumenism" on one side, and a rabid over-reaction which falsely believes correctness is to be found in becoming the antithesis of your ideological opponents.  Both approaches are misguided, and I think fall outside of the calm, yet firm position taken by the Church throughout the ages.

In the end, it's God Who gives grace - and obviously, He can give this in whatever measure wherever He wants, to whoever He wants.  It would be imbecillic for anyone to insist otherwise.

However, as far as the Church can be concerned, She can obviously only understand Her own sacraments to be "true" ones.    Again, this topic is confused all the more because in recent centuries certain parts of the Orthodox world began to try discussing this topic with a vocabularly which was basically foreign to Orthodoxy - something many contemporary Orthodox theologians have refered to as a theological pseudomorphesus.  Fortunately, one of the real accomplishments of the 20th century was the return of many Orthodox academics and "school theologians" to a native, and more authentic way of phrasing and conceptualizing these truths.

This is why, whenever the Church does accept certain sacramental rites administered in a schism or heresy, She can only be said to do such by economy - because what She is accepting, is not Her own, but is being made Her own - and being given whatever it was lacking.  OTOH, while practiced with different levels of frequency depending on the time and place, the Church also has every right to simply ignore what those who are ostensibly alien to Her have administered.  This can and does happen, in certain places as a matter of course.

Now, if we doggedly insist upon an unqualified "validity" or equivelence between Orthodox Sacraments and those of the heterodox, one has to condemn what the Church does, and has done, in many times and places, as being sacreligious.   I don't know about you, but I have a hard time with that.

Quote
I know a priest who used to pray before the Blessed Sacrament in an RC parish.  I'm sure you'd "denounce" him but he's been at this much longer than you or me so I'll pay more attention to him.

Well that may be so, but this doesn't make what he was up to kosher.  I'm sure he's a lovely man with many virtues, but that doesn't make this at all correct.

Quote
I'm going to comment once again on how different the on-line Orthodox world is from the real-life Orthodox world for any of our visitors.  In a real Orthodox church, you don't hear "denunciations" of heresy.  Real Orthodox people are much more concerned with their own salvation than "denouncing" others.  Also, real Orthodox people have affection for other traditional Christians.  Most of us are related to non-Orthodox.

Oh I agree, "reality" is in many respects quite a bit different than what you find on these forums.  But that cuts both ways.

While it's true that people tend to be much less ostentatious and pushy in the "real world", it's also true that you'll find alot of folks who are not sufficiently informed on this (or sadly many other far more important topics) subject to actually give an informed opinion - and sadly, North America is not the best place to pick up on this topic "via osmosis".

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« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2005, 01:03:50 PM »

I know plenty of good pious Orthodox Christians who don't go around "denouncing" Roman Catholics as heretics. You're correct that we believe that some of the teachings of Roman Catholicism are heresies. However, that does not mean that we "denounce" them.
I never said we should denounce individuals but the ideology known as Roman Catholicism. By definition we are denouncing Roman Catholicism because we believe it is heresy; it is evil and reprehensible.

This is not to say that there is nothing good in the Roman Catholic church but the problem is that it is poisoned by heresy. I do not think I am going to far by saying this considering that various Church Fathers refer to heresy as being a poison.

Let us get to the heart of what I was trying to say: you cannot be Orthodox and be Roman Catholic! If you support or condone the heresy of Roman Catholicism you automatically separate yourself from the Church.

BTW, I know some good pious Orthodox priests who believe that there may be grace in Roman Catholic sacraments. I know a priest who used to pray before the Blessed Sacrament in an RC parish. I'm sure you'd "denounce" him but he's been at this much longer than you or me so I'll pay more attention to him.

One priest in several million. I think I will pay attention to the priests I know who tell their parishoners not even to go into a non-Orthodox church unless it is for a funeral or wedding. BTW did you know that there are prayers for the cleansing of a Church if heretics take hold of it and perform various rites in it. Praying in a heretical church and taking part in that heresy is no light matter.

I'm going to comment once again on how different the on-line Orthodox world is from the real-life Orthodox world for any of our visitors. In a real Orthodox church, you don't hear "denunciations" of heresy. Real Orthodox people are much more concerned with their own salvation than "denouncing" others. Also, real Orthodox people have affection for other traditional Christians. Most of us are related to non-Orthodox.

Jennifer it used to be, I think it still is in some places, that when a Roman Catholic became a catechumen they were required to read a denunciation of the heretical teachings of Roman Catholicism as part of their entry into the catechumenate or upon Chrismation or in some cases being accepted into the Church through simple statement of Orthodox Faith and receiving Communion.
Also, as Augustine said, it is a mistake to assume that what goes on in American is true for the rest of the world. A lot of things go on amongst Orthodox in America that would never happen in an Orthodox country.

Also you seem to not have read any of the other posts I have written where I mention that all my relatives are non-Orthodox and I get along fine with them. A few of my relatives are agnostics and atheists and though I occasionally get into arguments about "how can you prove God exists? etc." we get along fine and love each other. However part of seeking your own salvation is knowing what is false, what is heresy, and among those things which are false is the heresy of Roman Catholicism. As for individuals who are born Roman Catholic I do not consider them heretics as most of them have never even made a conscious decision to be opposed to Orthodoxy and have no first hand knowledge of the True Faith. Also I do not think it is right for any laymen to denounce any individual as a heretic but to leave that to the bishops.

Can we please get back to the main issue of the discussion: why the Novus Ordo Roman Catholic church could never be "reunited" to the Orthodox Church. I am particularly referring to why the Orthodox Church could never accept the Novus Ordo mass as acceptable for the celebration of the Eucharist.
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« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2005, 01:17:24 PM »

Jennifer it used to be, I think it still is in some places, that when a Roman Catholic became a catechumen they were required to read a denunciation of the heretical teachings of Roman Catholicism as part of their entry into the catechumenate or upon Chrismation or in some cases being accepted into the Church through simple statement of Orthodox Faith and receiving Communion.

I've seen some of these (from Antiochian books). They are often inaccurate as to what they claim that other denominations teach.
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« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2005, 01:54:09 PM »

Let us get to the heart of what I was trying to say: you cannot be Orthodox and be Roman Catholic! If you support or condone the heresy of Roman Catholicism you automatically separate yourself from the Church.

I completely agree that we cannot be both Orthodox and Roman Catholic which is why I wonder why you have such a fascination with the ravings of traditionalist Roman Catholics.  When I became a catechumen in the Orthodox Church I quit worrying about these things. 

Quote
Jennifer it used to be, I think it still is in some places, that when a Roman Catholic became a catechumen they were required to read a denunciation of the heretical teachings of Roman Catholicism as part of their entry into the catechumenate or upon Chrismation or in some cases being accepted into the Church through simple statement of Orthodox Faith and receiving Communion.

When I chrismated, I renounced (note that renuncation and denuciation are not the same thing) heretical Roman Catholic teachings. 

Quote
Can we please get back to the main issue of the discussion: why the Novus Ordo Roman Catholic church could never be "reunited" to the Orthodox Church. I am particularly referring to why the Orthodox Church could never accept the Novus Ordo mass as acceptable for the celebration of the Eucharist.

Let's leave this to the Roman Catholics and worry about ourselves.  There will be reunion when God wills it. 

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« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2005, 05:03:38 PM »

From my understanding the Novus Ordo is not in union with the Roman Catholic Church either. Just wanted to clarify that.

~Victor
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« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2005, 11:17:58 PM »

I completely agree that we cannot be both Orthodox and Roman Catholic which is why I wonder why you have such a fascination with the ravings of traditionalist Roman Catholics. When I became a catechumen in the Orthodox Church I quit worrying about these things.

When I chrismated, I renounced (note that renuncation and denuciation are not the same thing) heretical Roman Catholic teachings.

Let's leave this to the Roman Catholics and worry about ourselves. There will be reunion when God wills it.


As I mentioned earlier my sister is in SSPX and  in the course of learning more about it I became fascinated with what Roman Catholicism was like before Vatican II. But I do not consider SSPX catholics arguments as "ravings". But when it comes to www.traditio.com I stated before that I do not put much stock in its polemics and I noticed that one of the photos it has of the Pope has falsely referred to the host he was using as a sugar cookie when in fact it was just a very large host of unleavened bread.

As for renounce and denounce, it is not enough to renounce Roman Catholicism. For example I can be pro-gun control and renounce that position without believing it is evil and reprehensible. Rather it is necessary when becoming Orthodox to denounce, to declare evil and reprehensible, teachings such as Papal Infallibility, created grace, the filioque, etc. Keep in mind I am not talking about denouncing people who are Roman Catholic rather the ideology known as Roman Catholicism.

Also I respect your opinion that we should leave the scrapping of the Novus Ordo to the Roman Catholics but I clearly do not feel this way as I made clear in my first post and I think in this age of the heresy of Modernism and Ecumenism it is something Orthodox have to worry about.

I've seen some of these (from Antiochian books). They are often inaccurate as to what they claim that other denominations teach.

I will have to get a service book when I am at Church, it is AA, and see what the prayers are.

From my understanding the Novus Ordo is not in union with the Roman Catholic Church either. Just wanted to clarify that.

~Victor
I am not sure what you are referring to Victor. What I mean when I say Novus Ordo catholics I am referring to those who use the Novus Ordo Missae http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novus_Ordo_Missae which is the mass used by the Vatican and about 99.7% of catholics, the 0.3% being traditionalists, use the Novus Ordo Missae.
Is there some catholic church calling itself the Novus Ordo church that I do not know about?
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« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2005, 11:37:25 PM »


As for renounce and denounce, it is not enough to renounce Roman Catholicism. For example I can be pro-gun control and renounce that position without believing it is evil and reprehensible. Rather it is necessary when becoming Orthodox to denounce, to declare evil and reprehensible, teachings such as Papal Infallibility, created grace, the filioque, etc. Keep in mind I am not talking about denouncing people who are Roman Catholic rather the ideology known as Roman Catholicism.


I think it's best if we leave the pronouncements about what is "necessary" to become Orthodox to our priests and bishops.  BTW, I've never heard an actual Orthodox person "denounce" Roman Catholicism as "evil and reprehensible." 

And for the record, the service book says "renounce" not "denounce." 

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« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2005, 11:45:05 PM »

Sabbas,

You are correct regarding the missal which I believe is the Roman Missal 2002 which has been revised(again) and has been completed, the "American" Bishops are waiting for the English translation so "they" can review and comment on it before its final publishing & release.

Maybe they will get the correct translation from the Latin...this time.

james, just as skeptical & wary of Rome & the ARCC as many here
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« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2005, 01:33:25 PM »

I will have to get a service book when I am at Church, it is AA, and see what the prayers are.

The Office for Receiving into the Orthodox Faith Such Persons as Have Not Previously Been Orthodox

[In the narthex of the Church.]

f the convert cometh to the Orthodox Faith from the Roman-Latin Confession (or from a Protestant confession), the Bishop shall question him, and shall say:

Wilt thou renounce the errors and false doctrines of the Roman-Latin (or Armenian, or Lutheran, or Reformed) Confession?

And he shall reply: I will.

Then the Bishop demandeth of him, from whatever confession he may come:

Dost thou desire to enter into and abide in the communion of the Orthodox-Catholic Faith?

Answer: I do.

[The Bishop signs him with the sign of the Cross, and the reads a long prayer over him.]

And the Bishop questioneth the convert from the Roman/Latin Confession.

Dost thou renounce the false doctrine that, for the expression of the dogma touching the Procession of the Holy Spirit, the declaration of our Savior Jesus Christ himself: "who proceedeth from the Father": doth not suffice; and that the addition, of man's invention: "and from the Son": is required?

Answer: I do

Bishop: Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that it doth not suffice to confess our Lord Jesus Christ as the head of the Universal Church; and that a man, to wit, the Bishop of Rome, can be the head of Christ's Body, that is to say, of the whole Church?

Answer: I do.

Bishop: Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief that the holy Apostles did not receive from our Lord equal power, but that the holy Apostle Peter was their Prince: And that the Bishop of Rome alone is his successor: And that the Bishops of Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch and others are not, equally with the Bishop of Rome, successors of the Apostles?

Answer: I do.

Bishop:ÂÂ  Dost thou renounce the erroneous belief of those who think that the Pope of Rome is superior to the Å’cumenical Councils, and infallible in faith, notwithstanding the fact that several of the Popes have been heretics, and condemned as such by Councils?

Answer: I do.

Bishop: Dost thou renounce all the other doctrines of the Western Confession, both old and new, which are contrary to the Word of God, and to the true tradition of the Church, and to the decrees of the Seven Oecumenical Councils?

Answer: I do.

[....]

Bishop: Hast thou renounced all ancient and modern heresies and false doctrines which are contrary to the teachings of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Eastern Church?

Answer: I have.

Bishop: Dost thou desire to be united unto the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Eastern Church?

Answer: I desire it with all my heart.

Bishop: Dost thou believe in one God, who is adored in the Holy Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit: and dost thou worship him as King and God?

Answer: I believe in one God who is glorified and adored in the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and I worship him as King and God.

Then he maketh a lowly reverence, kneeling and bowing his head to the earth, and reciteth the Creed.

[....]

Bishop: Blessed be God, who enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world.

And again the Bishop saith:

Tell us of the other dogmas of our Orthodox Church, its traditions and ordinances; how thou holdest concerning them?

And he replieth:

I accept and confess the Apostolic and Ecclesiastical Canons, established by the Seven Holy Ecumenical and Provincial Councils, and the other traditions of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Apostolic Church of the East, its rules and ordinances; and I likewise will accept and understand Holy Scripture in accordance with the interpretation which the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Church of the East, our Mother, hath held and doth hold.

I believe and confess that there are seven sacraments of the New Testament, to wit: Baptism, Chrismation, the Eucharist, Confession, the Priesthood, Marriage and Anointing with Oil, instituted by the Lord Christ and His Church, to the end that, through their operation and reception, we may receive blessings from on high.

I believe and confess that in the Divine Liturgy, under the mystical forms of bread and wine, the faithful partake of the true Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, unto the remission of their sins, and unto life eternal.

I believe and confess that it is proper to reverence and invoke the Saints who reign on high with Christ, according to the interpretation of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Church of the East; and that their prayers and intercessions avail with the beneficent God unto our salvation: Likewise that it is well-pleasing in the sight of God that we should do homage to their relics, glorified through incorruption, as the precious memorials of their virtues.

I acknowledge that the images of our Saviour Christ, and of the Ever-Virgin Mother of God, and of the other Saints are worthy to be possessed and honoured; not unto idolatry, but that, through contemplation thereof we may be incited unto piety, and unto emulation of the deeds of the holy persons represented by those images.

I confess that the prayers of the faithful, which are offered up to God for the salvation of those who have departed this life in the faith, are favourably received, through the mercy of God.

I believe and confess that power has been given by our Saviour Christ unto the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Church to bind and to loose: and whatsoever, by virtue of that power, is bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven.

I believe and confess that the Foundation, Head, and Great High Priest and Chief Shepherd of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Church is our Lord Jesus Christ: and that Bishops, Pastors and Teachers are appointed by Him to rule the Church, and that the Guide and Pilot of this Church is the Holy Spirit.

I confess that this Church is the Bride of Christ, and that therein is true salvation.

I promise true obedience, unto my life's end, to the Most Holy Synod (if it be in a Dioscese, then the Bishop of that diocese is named), as the true Pastors of the Orthodox Church, and to the Priests appointed by them.

Then the Bishop giveth him the end of his pall (omofór) (if a priest offciate, he giveth him the end of his priestly stole (epitrakhíl)) in his right hand, saying:

Enter thou the Orthodox Church; and cast away all the errors and false doctrines wherein thou hast dwelt: and honor the Lord God, the Father Almighty, and his Only-begotten Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, one true and living God, the Holy Trinity, one in Essence and Indivisible.

[Then they enter the Church proper while Psalm 66 is read, and the Bishop commands that the convert kneel before the Holy Gospels. He then reads a long prayer over the convert.]

And after the prayer, the Bishop commandeth him to stand, saying:

Rise, and stand straight: stand with fear.

And he, rising, saith:

This true faith of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Church, which I now voluntarily confess and unfeignedly hold, I will firmly maintain and confess whole and in its fullness and integrity, until my last breath, God being my helper; and will teach it and proclaim it, so far as in me lieth; and will strive to fulfill its obligations cheerfully and with joy, preserving my heart in purity and virtue. And in confirmation of this, my true and sincere profession of faith, I now kiss the word and cross of my Saviour. Amen.

Then the Bishop giveth him the Holy Gospels and the Cross to kiss. And after he hath kissed them, [the Bishop] saith:

Blessed be God, who willeth that all men should be saved, and should come unto the knowledge of the truth: Blessed is he forevermore.

Choir: Amen.

[Then the bishop again commands him to kneel, and reads over him "the form absolving such a convert from Excommunication, and from his sins, and of joining him unto the Holy Catholic Church".]

The the Bishop saith to him:

Rise, brother (sister), and as a faithful servant of jesus Christ pray thou unto him with us, that he will vouchsafe unto thee, through anointment with the holy Chrism, to receive the grace of the Holy Spirit.

And rising, the convert standeth with all emotion.

[Here follows the full office of Chrismation.]

Taken from the Service Book of the Holy Orthodox-Catholic Apostolic Church, translated by I. F. Hapgood, pages 454-463. This service was approved and published by the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church in 1895.
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« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2005, 10:00:32 PM »

Thank you Julio
I wish I knew Koine so I could see whether the word translated as renounce means roughly the same thing as denounce. Of course renounce can be used in a variety of ways. As I mentioned it can mean simply changing a position on something or casting something off in the sense that it is despicable. Perhaps the word should be denounce? Can any of you who know Koine and have a service book in Koine elaborate on this? Hopefully there is somebody here.

Jennifer
Do you consider Papal Infallibility to be okay? The filioque okay? Such heretical beliefs are worthy of denunciation as being the work of demons in the hearts of various greedy and puffed up men. Why do you defend Roman Catholicism? Am I saying something false about it? Just because I consider Roman Catholicism heresy does not mean I hate Roman Catholics or think they are idiots or that I do not sympathize with them or think they are striving for salvation and seek the same God. Like I have said before I have nothing but sympathy for the majority of Roman Catholics, particularly those who hold firmly to the Latin Mass, and think they have a lot in common with the Orthodox. But I only believe in One Church that is visible and undivided and that it is part of the duty of the members of the One True Church to let others know what is heresy and what is not when the question comes up. To not be willing to do such a thing would be tantamount to lying.

James
Do you know of any more statements coming from Pope Benedict XVI or the Vatican that there will be some attempt at returning to the traditional rubrics for the mass? I know of the Pope's recent book on the Liturgy but I am curious what it will mean for the future.
Most seem to think that all that will happen is that the Pope will press for priests and bishops to insert optional rubrics in which the priest, if officiating towards the congregation as almost all using the Novus Ordo Missae do, turns at various points towards the Cross, that is the Cross will be behind him and he will have to face the same way as the congregation at that time. Of course I doubt the ARCC would pay much attention to this.
Also have you heard anything about a possible rapproachment of SSPX with the Vatican? I would not be suprised if it happens someday though the demands made by SSPX seem to big for the Vatican to deal with such as declaring the suppression of the Latin Mass unlawful. If there was any rapproachment on these terms it would be good news for traditionalists, both in SSPX and in FSSP. The bishops would no longer be able to stop priests from practicing the Latin Mass.
Believe or not my sister told me about a situation up at Dyersville Basilica a year or two ago but before I tell the story I'll give some background. Dyersville is in Northeast Iowa and is home of some of the most serious conservative and traditionalist Roman Catholics in the U.S. Though the bishop of Dubuque does not like it there was so much clamoring for the return of the Latin Mass to the basilica that several years ago it was reinstituted. Unfortunately for major feasts the traditional rubrics and Latin Mass are not allowed and on the Feasts, specifically Holy Week, all faithful have to attend the Novus Ordo celebration. Well a year or two ago the FSSP came and asked if they could perform the traditional Holy Week rites for those who desired it. The bishop of Dubuque fought as hard as he could to keep it from happening but there was so much popular support that he had to give way. But he gave the FSSP an ultimatum afterwards saying that if they performed the traditional Holy Week rites they would never be allowed back at the basilica. Well they went attend and celebrated them as part of their duty to the faithful! If only it could be made so that the bishops could not suppress the Latin Mass and traditional Feast Day rites I wonder just how many more RC parishes would decide to return to tradition?
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« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2005, 10:16:41 PM »

I'm not Roman Catholic but will speak up for them here.ÂÂ  Traditio isn't a credible site.ÂÂ  I've heard its owner is a fake priest.ÂÂ  He certainly posts a lot of hateful things.ÂÂ  

Frankly I don't understand why an Orthodox Christian would get dragged into the ravings of whacko RC trads.ÂÂ  



I agree.  I dont see any reason to be concerned how the RCC wants to conduct their Divine services. We are the firm base from which all Christians can come back to see their roots get a true perspective of the one true faith.  If the RCC wants to degrade their services let them, I know we wont and this is very comforting and reasuring.

JoeS   Cool

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« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2005, 10:26:27 PM »

Thank you Julio

Why, you're welcome. Grin

I wish I knew Koine so I could see whether the word translated as renounce means roughly the same thing as denounce. Of course renounce can be used in a variety of ways. As I mentioned it can mean simply changing a position on something or casting something off in the sense that it is despicable. Perhaps the word should be denounce? Can any of you who know Koine and have a service book in Koine elaborate on this? Hopefully there is somebody here.

As I noted above, this Service was approved by the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church, and therefore, its original text is in Church Slavonic. I don't have a copy of the original of this Service (which may be found in the third volume of the 1960 Jordanville Slavonic Trebnik), but I can try to find out what the word is. On first impression, it would seem to me that "denounce" seems a bit extreme. As the Archimandrite Lazarus (Moore) of blessed memory used to say: "When we come to the Church, we should not look backward screaming, but we should look forward singing". Which is not to say, of course, that a firm renunciation of one's former heresies is not required--the Service quoted makes that clear enough.

--Julio

PS: Incidentally, there is a much, much shorter "Order for the Conversion to Orthodoxy from the Latin Church" in pages 110-113 of Apostoliki Diakonia's Mikron Evkhologion. The final page contains a "Libellos" ("Certificate") that the convert must sign. In it, the converts attests to "confess and love" (kathomologō kai stergō) all those things established by the Seven Ecumenical and Local Councils, while "casting off" (apoballomenos) the teachings of the Latin Church, while "beginning anew" (kainotomēthenta) regarding the Dogmas, Mysteries, Traditions, and praxis of the Orthodox Church. This is precisely in the vein of the ever-memorable Fr. Lazarus' words cited above.
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« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2005, 11:44:48 PM »

Why, you're welcome. Grin

As I noted above, this Service was approved by the Holy Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church, and therefore, its original text is in Church Slavonic. I don't have a copy of the original of this Service (which may be found in the third volume of the 1960 Jordanville Slavonic Trebnik), but I can try to find out what the word is. On first impression, it would seem to me that "denounce" seems a bit extreme. As the Archimandrite Lazarus (Moore) of blessed memory used to say: "When we come to the Church, we should not look backward screaming, but we should look forward singing". Which is not to say, of course, that a firm renunciation of one's former heresies is not required--the Service quoted makes that clear enough.

--Julio

Of I realize that the service book your are quoting from was originally in Church Slavonic but I would imagine it is modelled on an earlier Greek version but of course I could be wrong.

Why is everyone so afraid of denunciation? When I was made a catechumen - usually this is only done in a rite immediately preceding baptism and/or chrismation of a catechumen into the Church - I was required to face the west and spit at a sheet of paper representing Satan. I simply think that which is evil should be denounced. Perhaps I am wrong?
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« Reply #51 on: July 07, 2005, 07:37:25 AM »

Of I realize that the service book your are quoting from was originally in Church Slavonic but I would imagine it is modelled on an earlier Greek version but of course I could be wrong.

This Service was an original composition in Slavonic; the Greek service is altogether different.

Why is everyone so afraid of denunciation? When I was made a catechumen - usually this is only done in a rite immediately preceding baptism and/or chrismation of a catechumen into the Church - I was required to face the west and spit at a sheet of paper representing Satan. I simply think that which is evil should be denounced. Perhaps I am wrong?

I don't think that most people are afraid of "denunciation", if what is meant by that is taking a stand for what is right. The concern is, rather, that being a reactionary never saved anyone. If one can't provide a confession of the Church's faith, but rather a list of all of the things one doesn't believe, well, Houston, we have a problem. This is why there's such a clear emphasis in both the Russian and Greek services on "renouncing", "casting off" first, and then "confessing", "beginning anew". Again, not backward screaming, but forward singing, as Father Lazarus was wont to say. The idea is the same in the Order for Making of Catechumens: one first renounces Satan, and his fallen angels, and his works, and his service, and his pomp, and then, when such filthiness is cast off, once confesses Christ and proclaims to believe in Him as King and God. It is only after this passing from rejection to confession that one is baptized.

--Julio
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« Reply #52 on: July 07, 2005, 08:01:23 AM »

When my dad was in Vietnam the chaplain did not wear camouflage and the chaplains were never with the men in combat so I can't see why they would need to.

Sabbas,

During my tour in VietNam, chaplains of all faiths were regularly in the field with my mechanized infantry battalion and later with my medical clearing company.  Sixteen chaplains are listed on the Wall; two of those (Lt Robert Capodanno, USN,[/url] and Major Charles Watters, USA[/url], both of blessed memory) were awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor posthumously; it was also awarded to another Chaplain (Capt. Angelo Liteky, USA[/url]) who survived.  The Army chaplains alone who served in VietNam were awarded 26 Silver Stars, 719 Bronze Stars, 66 Legions of Merit, and 82 Purple Hearts.

Whenever Mass, Divine Liturgy, Protestant, or Jewish services were held in the field (which was frequently, sometimes imminently prior to or in the immediate aftermath of battle) the chaplains regularly wore camouflage vestments, often surmounted by a flak jacket.  At other times, they celebrated the services of their Faiths in their fatigue uniforms, because circumstances were such that it was too dangerous to be vested.  Enemy wisdom held, with much truth, that the surest way to rout an American combat unit was to deprive it of leadership, communications, medical care, and morale - accomplished by killing officers and sergeants, radio-operators, medics, and clergy.

See also Mass at a Firebase.

Many years,

Neil
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« Reply #53 on: July 07, 2005, 08:12:45 AM »

This is why there's such a clear emphasis in both the Russian and Greek services on "renouncing", "casting off" first, and then "confessing", "beginning anew".

Even the spongy Episcopalians do it this way. We don't have an itemized list, though.

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« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2005, 06:46:12 PM »

That whole site did seem a bit dodgy, so I wouldnt take it as credible.

Now, this is one thing that urks me about Orthodoxy. It always seems that there some person out there who posts negative things about the RC church. Ive been to several RC forums,a nd have seen almost nothing of the sort. Are you trying to tell me this stuff doesnt happen in the Orthodox church? Of course it does, and probably in the same quanities as well!

Also, whos buisness is it how you worship? As long as you're sincere in your mind when you pray, and it does not break a commandment or commit a sin, then there is really nothing wrong with it. Is there a sin, "Thou shalt not wear a cheese square on thine head"?

I pray in the traditional way, get dressed up for church, etc., but it seems to utterly foolish to harass people who pray in their own way.
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« Reply #55 on: July 09, 2005, 09:32:26 PM »


Now, this is one thing that urks me about Orthodoxy. It always seems that there some person out there who posts negative things about the RC church. Ive been to several RC forums,a nd have seen almost nothing of the sort. Are you trying to tell me this stuff doesnt happen in the Orthodox church? Of course it does, and probably in the same quanities as well!

First, you have to differentiate "real life" Orthodoxy from on-line Orthodoxy.  Second, while I'm sure this kind of stuff does happen in the Orthodox Church, I'm certain it doesn't happen in the "same quantities."  I've been both RC and Orthodox and have yet to met an 'un-orthodox' Orthodox priest.  I've never attended a questionable Orthodox liturgy. 

Quote
Also, whos buisness is it how you worship? As long as you're sincere in your mind when you pray, and it does not break a commandment or commit a sin, then there is really nothing wrong with it. Is there a sin, "Thou shalt not wear a cheese square on thine head"?

As Orthodox Christians, it's not really "our business," but many of us are saddened by liturgical abuses in the RCC.  And it certainly does matter.  What you worship is what you believe.  In Orthodoxy, we don't separate liturgy from theology so it sounds odd to us to hear that liturgical abuses don't matter. 
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« Reply #56 on: July 09, 2005, 10:37:30 PM »

Never attended a questionable one, eh? Well, then come on over to Maine!

Last Sunday, I attended my first Liturgy. People were taking extra pieces of The Sacrament back to their friends and family who were NOT Orthodox. I was apalled as I saw them knibble on the bread at their seats for several minutes like it was a picnic!

Oh, and this Sunday, the Liturgy is going to be held in a remote park during a "meet and greet gathering". Unless they plan on lugging a slab of marble for the alter and a lifesize Jesus on a cross to bless The Sacraments, then I can just see a picnic table being used with styrofoam cups holding the Blood of Christ. Btw, there are no benches or chairs there, so I assume we'll be sitting on the grass in a circle like we're in a Pagan ritual.

Blasphamous enough for ya?
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« Reply #57 on: July 09, 2005, 10:43:28 PM »

Never attended a questionable one, eh? Well, then come on over to Maine!

Last Sunday, I attended my first Liturgy. People were taking extra pieces of The Sacrament back to their friends and family who were NOT Orthodox. I was apalled as I saw them knibble on the bread at their seats for several minutes like it was a picnic!

Oh, and this Sunday, the Liturgy is going to be held in a remote park during a "meet and greet gathering". Unless they plan on lugging a slab of marble for the alter and a lifesize Jesus on a cross to bless The Sacraments, then I can just see a picnic table being used with styrofoam cups holding the Blood of Christ. Btw, there are no benches or chairs there, so I assume we'll be sitting on the grass in a circle like we're in a Pagan ritual.

Blasphamous enough for ya?

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« Reply #58 on: July 09, 2005, 10:47:04 PM »

Never attended a questionable one, eh? Well, then come on over to Maine!

Last Sunday, I attended my first Liturgy. People were taking extra pieces of The Sacrament back to their friends and family who were NOT Orthodox. I was apalled as I saw them knibble on the bread at their seats for several minutes like it was a picnic!

That wasn't the Sacrament.  That was the antidoron, or blessed bread.  No need to be "appalled."  We receive it after the Eucharist in order to make sure that we swallow all of the crumbs of the Body and Blood.  We also receive the antidoron after the veneration of the Cross.  Some pious Orthodox take a piece of the antidoron home and eat it first thing each morning. 

Quote
Oh, and this Sunday, the Liturgy is going to be held in a remote park during a "meet and greet gathering". Unless they plan on lugging a slab of marble for the alter and a lifesize Jesus on a cross to bless The Sacraments, then I can just see a picnic table being used with styrofoam cups holding the Blood of Christ. Btw, there are no benches or chairs there, so I assume we'll be sitting on the grass in a circle like we're in a Pagan ritual.

Are you trolling?  Serioiusly...you do know that we stand during the liturgy so there's no need for benches or chairs.  And no matter what you can "just see" no Orthodox priest would use styrofoam cups.  You also don't need a marble altar and a lifesize Jesus "to bless the Sacraments."  First, our altars are usually not made of marble.  Second, we don't have crucifixes in our churches. 

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« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2005, 10:53:14 PM »

Here are some links about Antidoron. 

This link is from a more traditional point of view.  The Proper Use of Antidoron.

Here's a link to the Catholic Encyclopedia.

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« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2005, 11:13:09 PM »

I just posted about antidoron here: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=6606.from1120963042;topicseen#msg86557
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« Reply #61 on: July 10, 2005, 01:18:20 PM »

In this Greek Orthodox Church, there is a lifesize Jesus nailed to a cross in The Sanctuary. Before he hands out the "Antidoron" and the Blood of Christ, he does a ritual where he walks around all of the pews 3 times, goes up to the bronze Jesus, and makes the trinity motion ON THE CHRIST.

I attended this "meet-and-greet" today as I didnt wish to miss church, which I am trying to attend every Sunday. We didnt stand, we sat. Some people brought blankets, while others brought lawn chairs. It wasnt as bad as I thought it would be, but there was a picnic table used as an alter, along with some candles.

While I was actually in the church last Sunday,we sat most of the time, stood once at the beginning for 5 minutes, and kneeled about 3 times.
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« Reply #62 on: July 10, 2005, 01:45:17 PM »

Simayan,

I think what you're describing is the Great Entrance.  During the Great Entrance, the priest comes out with the gifts.  In the Russian tradition, he stands on the ambo.  In the Greek tradition, he walks around the church. 

I think you're still confused about the Antidoron.  A portion of the prosphora is called the Lamb.  This portion becomes the Body of Christ.  The rest of the loaf is the Antidoron, or Blessed Bread. 

I'm not sure what you mean by the "trinity motion ON THE CHRIST." 

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« Reply #63 on: July 10, 2005, 01:59:45 PM »

Simayan,

Here are some links you might find of interest. 

This link gives a good description of an Orthodox liturgy for a newcomer.  First Visit to an Orthodox Church

This link describes an Orthodox temple.  The Orthodox Church

This link describes what should be on the altar.  The Holy Temple

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« Reply #64 on: July 10, 2005, 02:56:43 PM »

Well, Im still new, some Im not too familiar with all the Greek terms, but the trinity thing was.....well.....

You know how people make the cross on themselves, head, cheast, right shoulder, left shoulder? Well, he did that to the statue of Jesus, like he actually touched the Jesus, and did the left shoulder first as if Jesus was doing ti himself. Is this common, because it seems odd that The Son would do the Son motion if he is the son...
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« Reply #65 on: July 10, 2005, 06:42:16 PM »

Simayan, I know what you are talking about although I've never seen it myself.

Sometimes when the priest is in front of the altar, he does the sign of the cross in the direction of the "Jesus on the wodden Cross" directly behind the altar. Thats just a blessing. The priest is not blessing Christ. He is basically acknowledging that the bread and wine on the altar has now been truly mystically transformed into the body and Blood of Christ.

I hope I didn't say anything wrong or confused you even more,
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« Reply #66 on: July 12, 2005, 02:27:03 PM »

Sabbas,

During my tour in VietNam, chaplains of all faiths were regularly in the field with my mechanized infantry battalion and later with my medical clearing company.  Sixteen chaplains are listed on the Wall; two of those (Lt Robert Capodanno, USN,[/url] and Major Charles Watters, USA[/url], both of blessed memory) were awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor posthumously; it was also awarded to another Chaplain (Capt. Angelo Liteky, USA[/url]) who survived.  The Army chaplains alone who served in VietNam were awarded 26 Silver Stars, 719 Bronze Stars, 66 Legions of Merit, and 82 Purple Hearts.

Whenever Mass, Divine Liturgy, Protestant, or Jewish services were held in the field (which was frequently, sometimes imminently prior to or in the immediate aftermath of battle) the chaplains regularly wore camouflage vestments, often surmounted by a flak jacket.  At other times, they celebrated the services of their Faiths in their fatigue uniforms, because circumstances were such that it was too dangerous to be vested.  Enemy wisdom held, with much truth, that the surest way to rout an American combat unit was to deprive it of leadership, communications, medical care, and morale - accomplished by killing officers and sergeants, radio-operators, medics, and clergy.

See also Mass at a Firebase.

Many years,

Neil
What year/s were you in? My father was in for most of 1967 and left July 31, 1968. He was in the 101st Airbourne and he has never told me why he extended his stay for another six months. But what he did tell me is that there was a chaplain with his unit in the field but that Mass was never said. Why the priest never said Mass in the field my father does not know or can't remember.

In this Greek Orthodox Church, there is a lifesize Jesus nailed to a cross in The Sanctuary. Before he hands out the "Antidoron" and the Blood of Christ, he does a ritual where he walks around all of the pews 3 times, goes up to the bronze Jesus, and makes the trinity motion ON THE CHRIST.

I attended this "meet-and-greet" today as I didnt wish to miss church, which I am trying to attend every Sunday. We didnt stand, we sat. Some people brought blankets, while others brought lawn chairs. It wasnt as bad as I thought it would be, but there was a picnic table used as an alter, along with some candles.

While I was actually in the church last Sunday,we sat most of the time, stood once at the beginning for 5 minutes, and kneeled about 3 times.
Simayan all I can say, and I am not casting judgment, is that you should not judge all of Orthodoxy by what goes on in one parish in the GOA. The GOA has had a history of allowing unOrthodox practices to creep into its parishes and the folding chairs and blankets along with the odd ritual with a bronze crucifix, if that is what you are talking about, are one example.
What GOA parish are you visiting anyway? I would contact the bishop if what you are seeing is as odd as you describe it.
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« Reply #67 on: July 12, 2005, 03:47:21 PM »

*Sigh*

This all started with this topic. Somebody said Catholic Churches had more of these blasphamous events than in Orthodox churches, and I disagreed.

I pointed out this particular church which I attend, in an attempt to show everyone that all churches make mistakes, because many internet 'fanatics', if I may use the word, think Orthodox places of worship have VERY few, if almost no ceremonial problems.

I am in no way judging all of The Orthodoxy this way. Would anyone in their right mind think about converting to a church that goes against most of Christianity, as far as worship goes? Probably not, I am just here to make a point, as it seemed the creator of this thread wanted to bash Roman Catholics.
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« Reply #68 on: July 12, 2005, 04:08:00 PM »

Quote
I pointed out this particular church which I attend, in an attempt to show everyone that all churches make mistakes, because many internet 'fanatics', if I may use the word, think Orthodox places of worship have VERY few, if almost no ceremonial problems.

But so far, you haven't described any real ceremonial problems with the Orthodox services. There are several points in the liturgy when the priest makes the sign of the cross towards the east. The Body and Blood are given mixed together with a spoon, and then antidoron is given afterwards; you would *never* see anyone holding the Body and Blood other than the priest, because it goes straight from chalice to spoon to mouth. In Russian churches, not only the antidoron is given out, but after communion people will drink zapifka, which is wine mixed with warm water and served in a little metal cup.

Many Orthodox churches have pews, and people will sit at certain points of the liturgy. There is nothing wrong with serving liturgy outdoors; it is frequently done when there are large groups of people (such as during pilgrimages) and not enough indoor space to accomodate them. An altar is not required to celebrate the liturgy, but an antimens (a cloth with relics and the signature of the bishop) is.
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« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2005, 05:05:27 PM »

I think every Roman Catholic should see this http://www.traditio.com/nos.htm

I often am told by conservative Roman Catholics that crazy masses are a thing of the past such as when I mention the infamous clown masses. I am asked if it is even still relevant to a discussion about Roman Catholic-Orthodox dialogue. This page has photos and dates and the crazy masses are obviously not gone. It never ceases to amaze me how conservative Roman Catholics can just go to mass and not really worry about this abuse. I also wonder how a conservative Roman Catholic deals with the knowledge that archbishops and even Pope John Paul II took part in and are still taking part in the abuse.

[ . . . ]

I am sorry for the ranting but upon seeing these photos and the hierarchs involved I was shocked. Before I thought it was only a few rogue priests. I had no idea bishops, archbishops, and even the Pope took part in these crazy masses.
Hopefully some Roman Catholic here can give a rebuttal.


I won't try to give a rebuttal, but I will try to give an explanation.

The Novus Ordo Mass is a conscious and deliberate attempt by the Catholic Chuirch to make Catholic worship more accessible and adaptable to different cultures.  Some tr5aditionalists will bqalk at this, but there was a feeling that the Catholic religion was becoming frozen into relgiioous formalism: like a fossil.  So, the Church decided to change the religious forms so as to get the worship back to worship.  For example, the liturgical language was changed to the vernacular, the priest faced the people so the people could see the Eucharist, obsolete vestments and language was dropped, the epiclesis was resumed, etc.  The balance was this:  flexbility in terms of music, songs, decorations, etc. but obedience to the rubrics (detailed instructions) for those parts of the ritual which cannot be changed.

Unfortunately, some people (including some priests . . . ) have disobeyed the rubrics.  Hence, a yuear or so ago, the Vatican issued DETAILED new rubrics to squash many of the abuses of the Novus Ordo.  Compliance with these news rubrics has been variable and gradual in some places, better in others.

Now, as for the website that was cited.  Not all the photographed activity is not wrong by Catholic norms.  Some things might be offensive to some people's individual tastes, and those things might be shocking to people from other churches (such as the Orthodox Church), but some of those things were not wrong according to Catholic standards.  For example, it is perfectly ok to celebrate Mass outdoors  (as long as there is a special,cloth used as an altar surface).  It is also ok --and praiseworthy to bring the Mass to people: on retareat, at a youth camp and, yes, even at a beach.  ASs for the bishop wearinjg a cheese-hat at Mass, I wasn't there.  Probably, though, he put it on for only a moment to show fraternity with the people gathered there: who are from Wisconsin, whose economic life-blood is the production of cheese.  Dancing women ("liturgical dancers") at Mass is soemthing that I personally find inappropriate, but apparently some bishops have allowed it.  And so on: economia is useful at times, necessary at others but very ill-advised at other times.  Nevertheless, I found most of the photos at that website to be within acceptable limits for liturgy in the Catholic Church.

Hence, my next point:  we really are different Churches.  I read several posts in this thread that said Roman Catholicism does not have valid sacraments, a position with which I (as a practicing Catholic) categorically reject.  In my *expereince* as well as beleif, they are quite valid because He, Jesus Christ, is acting through them.  But, we are different Churches.  We have different beleifs, and we have different ways of doing things.  The differences in beleifs and in how we celebrate our sacraments iullustrates this profoundly.

Hence my final point:  I think that the rush to reunion by some is ill-advised.  The differences in liturgy illustrate that.  The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church have been divorced for a 1000 years.  It will take time to understand each other (especially our differences) and to respect each other (including our differences).  I would love some kind of spiritual communion -- genuine love among each other and working together to combat common foes of secularism, etc.   Otherwise, I think the separation of the Churches is a fact that must be acknowledged for reasons that must be respected.  In other words, I think we can be good neighbors not only by being nice but also by having good fences. 

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« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2005, 05:39:47 PM »

Quote
But so far, you haven't described any real ceremonial problems with the Orthodox services.

There's an Orthodox Church near me that has a 1:10 liturgy, kneeling on Sundays (contrary to the 20th canon of the 1st Ecumenical Council), the preacher sometimes uses the sermon as a political soapbox to propound his own beliefs, and yet after all this people will give you dirty looks if you go against "custom".

I don't personally have anything against this parish. I even think they are, generally speaking, pretty friendly. I don't deny that they are Orthodox. But, if I wanted to nit-pick I'm sure I could fine even more "problems" than the ones I listed above, which is what I can remember off the top of my head after casual observance of their parish a few times. I don't think that Orthodox parishes have problems to the same extent as Catholics... but we do have problems, and unfortunately many times these problems are mandated straight from the bishops.
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« Reply #71 on: July 12, 2005, 05:58:46 PM »

*Sigh*

This all started with this topic. Somebody said Catholic Churches had more of these blasphamous events than in Orthodox churches, and I disagreed.

I pointed out this particular church which I attend, in an attempt to show everyone that all churches make mistakes, because many internet 'fanatics', if I may use the word, think Orthodox places of worship have VERY few, if almost no ceremonial problems.

I am in no way judging all of The Orthodoxy this way. Would anyone in their right mind think about converting to a church that goes against most of Christianity, as far as worship goes? Probably not, I am just here to make a point, as it seemed the creator of this thread wanted to bash Roman Catholics.
Simayan where do you get the idea that Archbishops wearing cheeseheads to Mass and Cardinals have elaborate dances in the sanctuary, along with taking money from major drug dealers, is just a mistake?

As far as Orthodoxy is concerned there are very few instances when you have serious liturgical irregularities and I have never heard of even a parish priest doing something as blasphemous as having lay people hand out communion. In fact the liturgical irregularity you describe at the GOA parish, having a large, bronze Crucifix in the sanctuary, is the most unusual thing I have ever heard of.
The reason why we do not have the problems the Roman Catholics do is because any Orthodox priest or bishop doing anything like that would almost certainly be deposed.

The reason I started this thread was to bash liturgical insanity. In fact I have repeatedly stated that I feel nothing but sympathy for serious Roman Cathlolics who have put up with all the nonsense.

Simayan you have not made your point and in fact doing a good job of proving my point when you seriously asked if it was a sin for an Archbishop to celebrate a Mass wearing a cheesehead. Most of us here would say it is common sense that such a thing is not appropriate.


I won't try to give a rebuttal, but I will try to give an explanation.

The Novus Ordo Mass is a conscious and deliberate attempt by the Catholic Chuirch to make Catholic worship more accessible and adaptable to different cultures. Some tr5aditionalists will bqalk at this, but there was a feeling that the Catholic religion was becoming frozen into relgiioous formalism: like a fossil. So, the Church decided to change the religious forms so as to get the worship back to worship. For example, the liturgical language was changed to the vernacular, the priest faced the people so the people could see the Eucharist, obsolete vestments and language was dropped, the epiclesis was resumed, etc. The balance was this: flexbility in terms of music, songs, decorations, etc. but obedience to the rubrics (detailed instructions) for those parts of the ritual which cannot be changed.

Unfortunately, some people (including some priests . . . ) have disobeyed the rubrics. Hence, a yuear or so ago, the Vatican issued DETAILED new rubrics to squash many of the abuses of the Novus Ordo. Compliance with these news rubrics has been variable and gradual in some places, better in others.

Now, as for the website that was cited. Not all the photographed activity is not wrong by Catholic norms. Some things might be offensive to some people's individual tastes, and those things might be shocking to people from other churches (such as the Orthodox Church), but some of those things were not wrong according to Catholic standards. For example, it is perfectly ok to celebrate Mass outdoors (as long as there is a special,cloth used as an altar surface). It is also ok --and praiseworthy to bring the Mass to people: on retareat, at a youth camp and, yes, even at a beach. ASs for the bishop wearinjg a cheese-hat at Mass, I wasn't there. Probably, though, he put it on for only a moment to show fraternity with the people gathered there: who are from Wisconsin, whose economic life-blood is the production of cheese. Dancing women ("liturgical dancers") at Mass is soemthing that I personally find inappropriate, but apparently some bishops have allowed it. And so on: economia is useful at times, necessary at others but very ill-advised at other times. Nevertheless, I found most of the photos at that website to be within acceptable limits for liturgy in the Catholic Church.

Hence, my next point: we really are different Churches. I read several posts in this thread that said Roman Catholicism does not have valid sacraments, a position with which I (as a practicing Catholic) categorically reject. In my *expereince* as well as beleif, they are quite valid because He, Jesus Christ, is acting through them. But, we are different Churches. We have different beleifs, and we have different ways of doing things. The differences in beleifs and in how we celebrate our sacraments iullustrates this profoundly.

Hence my final point: I think that the rush to reunion by some is ill-advised. The differences in liturgy illustrate that. The Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church have been divorced for a 1000 years. It will take time to understand each other (especially our differences) and to respect each other (including our differences). I would love some kind of spiritual communion -- genuine love among each other and working together to combat common foes of secularism, etc. Otherwise, I think the separation of the Churches is a fact that must be acknowledged for reasons that must be respected. In other words, I think we can be good neighbors not only by being nice but also by having good fences.



Thank you for offering a rebuttal. But in my talks with others who were adults when the Mass began to change that some were outraged at any change but most at first felt that the changes were good but went too far. One person I know was delighted when they started reading Epistle and Gospel in the vernacular but when they started offering all of the Mass in the vernacular he became dismayed because he noticed that various prayers and verses were purposely being mistranslated from the Latin such as the obvious mistranlations of "Et cum spiritu tuo," as "And also with you." Then they turned the altar table and then came the guitars and Pete, Paul, Mary songs. He quickly realized this was not reform but revolution.

Also I would ask why you say that the turning of the altar table around was so the people could see the Eucharist? It can be seen in the Latin Mass at the Elevation of the host and then the chalice.

As I said I as an observer find it unlikely that Pope Benedict will be able squash all the abuses but I wish him and all serious RCs good luck. I wish more RCs would read the Pope's recent book so that they would see more clearly that the Novus Ordo has serious flaws as it is currently celebrated.

As for being good neighbors and working together on social issues I am all for it.
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« Reply #72 on: July 12, 2005, 07:54:26 PM »

I usally refer others to responsibile sites for liturgical questions etc... so again here they are;

http://www.adoremus.org/index.html

http://www.latinmassmagazine.com/

http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/index.asp

Just as in Orthodoxy there are many many different opinons etc...

Chow,
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« Reply #73 on: September 19, 2007, 12:17:28 AM »

Liturgical Insanity is right! And people have the nerve to ask, "Why(ine) dont the Orthodox think the Roman Catholic sacraments are valid?"!!!!!!! Why(ine) dont the Orthodox think Catholics are Christians? How you can belong to a so-called "church" that would allow and encourage such sacrilege and goofiness is beyond me! Totally disgusting! After seeing this "Mess," I have no desire tolisten to any Catholic why(ining)-ing again!
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« Reply #74 on: September 19, 2007, 12:51:15 AM »

Liturgical Insanity is right! And people have the nerve to ask, "Why(ine) dont the Orthodox think the Roman Catholic sacraments are valid?"!!!!!!! Why(ine) dont the Orthodox think Catholics are Christians? How you can belong to a so-called "church" that would allow and encourage such sacrilege and goofiness is beyond me! Totally disgusting! After seeing this "Mess," I have no desire tolisten to any Catholic why(ining)-ing again!

I'm just wondering why you conjured up this thread from 2005 and decided to top it off with some remarks which were far from a glowing example of Christian charity....?  Huh

Perhaps you have an axe to grind?   Roll Eyes

  I was raised as a Roman Catholic, attended Roman Catholic grade and high schools. First interested in Orthodoxy in grade school, where the nun told me (after I had told her about getting information on Orthodoxy from different Orthodox Churches) that I should not read any of it as it was all "trash." Converted to Orthodoxy (ROCOR) at age 35, long, long, long after abandoning Catholicism.
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« Reply #75 on: September 19, 2007, 02:32:23 AM »

I did not "conjure up" anything, sir-it is right here with all the other threads. If it is not permitted to add to them, why are they here? NO other reason for commenting than what I said-it is indeed liturgical insanity, as well as sacrilege-if you think not, and prefer to have "Mass" with clowns, half naked priests, etc etc etc and so on-be my guest! Just telling you my opinion-or isnt that allowed here either?

What "agenda"do you think I could have? The nun when I was in the 6th grade-uh-and YOU are the one who talks about "conjuring up" things form the past? ARE YOU ACCUSING ME OF SOMETHING? If so, why not be a big brave boy and say it outright instead of hinting around? And, sir, I do not give one whit for your estimation of my "Christian Love." Attack me all you like-when my opponents attack, it means I am doing something right.
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« Reply #76 on: September 19, 2007, 02:46:45 AM »

What "agenda"do you think I could have?
I'm not sure if you have one, or what it might be if you do, but it is clear that any possible agenda of yours would not include dialogue or discussion:
I have no desire tolisten to any Catholic why(ining)-ing again!
So clearly, you do not wish to listen to those who may disagree with you. You just want to be able to voice your opinion and not have to answer any challenges to it.
OK. We've heard you. Thanks.
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« Reply #77 on: September 19, 2007, 03:21:54 AM »

And, sir, I do not give one whit for your estimation of my "Christian Love." Attack me all you like-when idiots attack, it means I am doing something right.
Perhaps your interpretation of "Christian Love" includes calling people "idiots", but we have rules about ad hominems on this forum, and I believe you were warned about this before.
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« Reply #78 on: September 19, 2007, 01:52:09 PM »

Attack me all you like-when idiots attack, it means I am doing something right.

"If people disagree/ don't like what I write then they are "attacking" and that means I'm Right.  If people agree, then that means I'm Right." 

Sigh

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« Reply #79 on: September 19, 2007, 02:00:13 PM »

Attack me all you like-when idiots attack, it means I am doing something right.

So since you're attacking, I take it we're all doing something right?
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