OrthodoxChristianity.net
October 25, 2014, 05:29:54 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Liturgical Insanity or why there will never be a "reunion"  (Read 11184 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Sabbas
Drink from your own wells
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 503

St. Glicherie True Orthodox Church of Romania


« on: June 30, 2005, 12:38:44 PM »

I think every Roman Catholic should see this http://www.traditio.com/nos.htm
I often am told by conservative Roman Catholics that crazy masses are a thing of the past such as when I mention the infamous clown masses. I am asked if it is even still relevant to a discussion about Roman Catholic-Orthodox dialogue. This page has photos and dates and the crazy masses are obviously not gone. It never ceases to amaze me how conservative Roman Catholics can just go to mass and not really worry about this abuse. I also wonder how a conservative Roman Catholic deals with the knowledge that archbishops and even Pope John Paul II took part in and are still taking part in the abuse.

Whenever Roman Catholics mention to me "healing the split" I simply say that the Orthodox Church would never condone what is going on at mass and in seminaries these days and that I don't think the Roman Catholic bishops are going to change simply to work towards "reunion". Often they aren't even aware of just how bad things are and are shocked when I mention some of the things that have been done. I mean think of it an Archbishop wearing a cheesehead at mass and not being excommunicated? or Pope John Paul II's dancing and inter-faith ecumenical gathering at Assisi? or sugar cookies and pancakes for the host?
How can any conservative Roman Catholic use the word canonical when the Apostolic Canons are not even enforced and the Pope himself breaks them?

I am sorry for the ranting but upon seeing these photos and the hierarchs involved I was shocked. Before I thought it was only a few rogue priests. I had no idea bishops, archbishops, and even the Pope took part in these crazy masses.
Hopefully some Roman Catholic here can give a rebuttal.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2005, 12:41:12 PM by Sabbas » Logged

www.hungersite.com  Ãƒâ€šÃ‚  www.freedonation.com you can donate up to 20 times at freedonation.  http://www.pomog.org/ has online 1851 Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton English translation of Septuagint.http://www.cnrs.ubc.ca/greekbible/ Original Koine Septuagint and New Testament.
Doubting Thomas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 874

Anglican (but not Episcopagan)


« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2005, 12:58:03 PM »

Wow...when I see photos like these I'm reminded why I am drawn towards Orthodoxy and not to Rome.  Shocked
Logged

"My Lord and My God!"--Doubting Thomas, AD 33
Jennifer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,154


« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2005, 01:22:13 PM »

I'm not Roman Catholic but will speak up for them here.  Traditio isn't a credible site.  I've heard its owner is a fake priest.  He certainly posts a lot of hateful things. 

Frankly I don't understand why an Orthodox Christian would get dragged into the ravings of whacko RC trads. 

Logged
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,748



« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2005, 01:27:51 PM »

Friends,

These are isolated incidents and I would say let Rome tend to Rome, these new age wonders are on the way out being exposed for what they really are . Nobody said it would be easy after 30 years or so of this BS.

I agree, there should not be any discussions until Rome has its own house in order.

But there is nothing preventing people from saying a prayer or two for the reform...is it ?


james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
yBeayf
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 708

/etc


« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2005, 01:37:31 PM »

Indeed, for several of those pics there's no evidence that it was a Catholic service at all. The Episcopalians wear stoles, too.

And it's pics like this that show why I'm drawn to the Roman rite.
Logged
Sabbas
Drink from your own wells
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 503

St. Glicherie True Orthodox Church of Romania


« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2005, 01:56:43 PM »

Wow...when I see photos like these I'm reminded why I am drawn towards Orthodoxy and not to Rome. Shocked
I would add that this liturgical disorder also explains why Una Voce and SSPX are growing. I also heard Frank Schaeffer say something similar to what you said. He originally looked into Roman Catholicism before becoming Orthodox but concluded that he would not relish jumping from the frying pan into the fire adding, " . . . what I don't need is an ex-Maryknoll nun handing out pink balloons during the liturgy." ÂÂ

I'm not Roman Catholic but will speak up for them here. Traditio isn't a credible site. I've heard its owner is a fake priest. He certainly posts a lot of hateful things.

Frankly I don't understand why an Orthodox Christian would get dragged into the ravings of whacko RC trads.
Jennifer you are missing the point. I am not supporting the website and agree that it is not at all polite. The only reason why I posted the link is because of the info it provided.

Friends,

These are isolated incidents and I would say let Rome tend to Rome, these new age wonders are on the way out being exposed for what they really are . Nobody said it would be easy after 30 years or so of this BS.

I agree, there should not be any discussions until Rome has its own house in order.

But there is nothing preventing people from saying a prayer or two for the reform...is it ?


james
Are they on the way out? Looking at Redemptionis Sacramentum http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWRDSAC.HTM it makes me wonder just how far out things have gotten and if order can be restored. When the pope has to explain that you aren't to spit out communion or handle it like ordinary food something is seriously wrong.

What I am curious about is why there is not more active opposition to such disorder amongst conservative Roman Catholics?

Indeed, for several of those pics there's no evidence that it was a Catholic service at all. The Episcopalians wear stoles, too.

And it's pics like this that show why I'm drawn to the Roman rite.
The pictures of the bishops and archbishops and the pope are quite obviously genuine. I am not attacking the Latin Rite at all! I am drawn to it myself and my first encounter with real spirituality was when I was a boy and prayed at various neo-Gothic (old fashioned) RC churches. My argument is against the Novus Ordo and particularly the abuses that are taking place not the Latin Rite.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2005, 01:58:13 PM by Sabbas » Logged

www.hungersite.com  Ãƒâ€šÃ‚  www.freedonation.com you can donate up to 20 times at freedonation.  http://www.pomog.org/ has online 1851 Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton English translation of Septuagint.http://www.cnrs.ubc.ca/greekbible/ Original Koine Septuagint and New Testament.
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2005, 02:57:28 PM »

I would also note that many, many of the pictures shown are in "field" conditions. The various "camoflage" cases, for example, are simply chaplains serving masses in the field. Perhaps the Traditio people would like the Army to carry porta-chapels everywhere (and they do have such things) but it is hardly always practical. One can find any number of pictures of masses on Jeep hoods ever since the army had Jeeps. Likewise, mass on a camping trip isn't going to be "pretty". Their inclusion of these pictures is either dishonest or excessively scrupulous.

The deeper issue is what stunt masses mean, and whether you can escape the problems involved with them simply by avoiding the stuts. Careful choice of parish goes a long way. And remember the old lament: "We used to have priests of gold and chalices of wood; now we have chalices of gold and priests of wood."
« Last Edit: June 30, 2005, 02:57:47 PM by Keble » Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2005, 03:02:53 PM »

While I'm at it: the pictures are so small and cropped so much that I can't tell what they're about in half the cases. The "dorito", for instance, looks to me like a quarter of an ordinary round of bread.
Logged
choirfiend
ManIsChristian=iRnotgrEek.
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 903

Rachael weeping for her children, for they are not


« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2005, 03:18:07 PM »

It's about as worthy as looking to "Ex-Orthodox for Christ" for a subjective, honest, and truthful rhetoric on Orthodoxy. Use discretion and discernment when observing the failures of others--often times we are too eager to believe anything that supports our ideas.
Logged

Qui cantat, bis orat
Doubting Thomas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 874

Anglican (but not Episcopagan)


« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2005, 04:07:55 PM »

Indeed, for several of those pics there's no evidence that it was a Catholic service at all. The Episcopalians wear stoles, too.

And it's pics like this that show why I'm drawn to the Roman rite.
Touche.  That is an impressive picture.
Logged

"My Lord and My God!"--Doubting Thomas, AD 33
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2005, 04:17:23 PM »

Indeed, for several of those pics there's no evidence that it was a Catholic service at all. The Episcopalians wear stoles, too.

And it's pics like this that show why I'm drawn to the Roman rite.

Production values are no guarantee of orthodoxy!
Logged
Jennifer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,154


« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2005, 05:13:55 PM »


Jennifer you are missing the point. I am not supporting the website and agree that it is not at all polite. The only reason why I posted the link is because of the info it provided.


If you don't support it, then why did you link to it?  What "info" did it provide?  It's not a reputable site so any "info" from it is not credible. 

I repeat my confusion as to why Orthodox Christians would care about the ravings of a disreputable site. 

Logged
Suaiden
Dcn Joseph Suaiden
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 308


« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2005, 05:15:30 PM »

I'm not Roman Catholic but will speak up for them here.  Traditio isn't a credible site.  I've heard its owner is a fake priest.  He certainly posts a lot of hateful things. 

Frankly I don't understand why an Orthodox Christian would get dragged into the ravings of whacko RC trads. 



Because they sound saner than the whacko RC modernists?
Logged

Still a Deacon of the Autonomous Metropolia, Nope, Still Don't Like Ecumenism, Yep, Still Western "Rite"
Suaiden
Dcn Joseph Suaiden
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 308


« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2005, 05:19:49 PM »

If you don't support it, then why did you link to it?  What "info" did it provide?  It's not a reputable site so any "info" from it is not credible. 

I repeat my confusion as to why Orthodox Christians would care about the ravings of a disreputable site. 



Because it isn't disreputable.  Traditio, whatever one may say about it, simply tries to collect any Latin Mass information it can and distribute it to those who want it.  I don't support their work, but I can at least see a justification for having it; I was a Roman Catholic once, and I wanted to escape the "Kumbaya" masses.  Whether we like it or not, the churches listed on Traditio do celebrate the way it was celebrated for the past 400 years.  Those people are interested in Tradition and are willing to sacrifice union with the Papacy for it.

I see great hope for the return of such people to Orthodoxy, and many have.
Logged

Still a Deacon of the Autonomous Metropolia, Nope, Still Don't Like Ecumenism, Yep, Still Western "Rite"
Nigula Qian Zishi
Administrator Emeritus, Retired Deacon, Inactive Poster, Active Orthodox Christian, Father, and Husband
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 1,836


我美丽的妻子和我。

nstanosheck
WWW
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2005, 05:29:15 PM »

Some people also visit sites like Tradition and http://www.NovusOrdoWatch.org for entertainment. When I was a web designer for an RC order of priests a number of traditionalist RCs would check out both sites daily.
Logged

在基督         My Original Blog
尼古拉         My Facebook Profile
前执事         My Twitter Page
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,748



« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2005, 05:34:48 PM »

There are some answers to be found at www.latinmassmagazine.com, review the articles there.

james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Timos
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 856



« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2005, 09:05:03 PM »

Jennifer, I would have to disagree. We should be concerned about this for the simple reason that the Roman Church is an Ancient Apostolic Church like the Orthodox...yes Catholicism technically started in 1054 AD but in reality a few centuries earlier when Spainiards invented the Filioque)...

But back to my point...since the Roman Church is apostolic and our Orthodox church wants to one day be re-united with the Roman See, we cannot simply say "we'd like to be united to the Roman church whenever they accept the Orthodox teachings." What about the liturgy?? The liturgy is the prime example of how we (should) practise our Orthodoxy. Also, the Roman Rite is soooo beautiful and spiritual. If the Roman Church today was Orthodox and did te traditional mass (in the vernacular) I would so go once in a while to the Mass.

Did you notice the results of Vatican II on the Church? Now, churches in North America and Europe are empty. On a side note, churches in Greece are becoming less and less full as the church continues to use incomprehensible Koine Greek and is stepping away from it's traditional eastern Mediterranean values and outlook and is going crazy to be identified as European-which today is anything but religious.
Logged
Timos
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 856



« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2005, 09:09:28 PM »

My bad...I meant the people of Greece  (especially the city dwellers) want to be identified more with Western Europe and less with the traditional values;whereas the church leaders want desperately to keep the church "intact" by sneering at anything Western/European as barbaric.
Logged
Sabbas
Drink from your own wells
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 503

St. Glicherie True Orthodox Church of Romania


« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2005, 10:09:13 PM »

I would also note that many, many of the pictures shown are in "field" conditions. The various "camoflage" cases, for example, are simply chaplains serving masses in the field. Perhaps the Traditio people would like the Army to carry porta-chapels everywhere (and they do have such things) but it is hardly always practical. One can find any number of pictures of masses on Jeep hoods ever since the army had Jeeps. Likewise, mass on a camping trip isn't going to be "pretty". Their inclusion of these pictures is either dishonest or excessively scrupulous.

The deeper issue is what stunt masses mean, and whether you can escape the problems involved with them simply by avoiding the stuts. Careful choice of parish goes a long way. And remember the old lament: "We used to have priests of gold and chalices of wood; now we have chalices of gold and priests of wood."

When my dad was in Vietnam the chaplain did not wear camouflage and the chaplains were never with the men in combat so I can't see why they would need to. ÂÂ
Quote
The deeper issue is what stunt masses mean, and whether you can escape the problems involved with them simply by avoiding the stuts.
That is exactly what I am trying to get at. What are they trying to prove by using pancakes as a host? What is the rationale behind an archbishop wearing a cheesehead? Do they think they can fuse prayer and goofiness?

It's about as worthy as looking to "Ex-Orthodox for Christ" for a subjective, honest, and truthful rhetoric on Orthodoxy.
I don't think I would go that far.

If you don't support it, then why did you link to it? What "info" did it provide? It's not a reputable site so any "info" from it is not credible.

I repeat my confusion as to why Orthodox Christians would care about the ravings of a disreputable site.
Jennifer you are still not getting it so I will try to break it down.
Quote
If you don't support it, then why did you link to it?
I don't agree with everything Gerhard Schroeder says but I would agree with him that Germany has a serious unemployment problem. I don't think that www.traditio.com is always accurate or even fair but the page I linked does have some good photos and info.
Quote
What "info" did it provide?

Well that Pope John Paul II took part in the liturgical craziness and even encouraged it a bit. That Cardinal Mahoney is a real . . . well I won't say it but believe or not Mahoney is crook on top of performing crazy masses. Read this: http://www.aztlan.net/boyle2.htm I was shocked to read that and I hope you are too! That Archbishop Charles Chaput likes to dress up like an Indian for mass. That Archbishop Timothy Dolan wore a cheeshead to mass and even if you are in Wisconsin and are a Packers fan it is still unacceptable. That Archbishop Anthony Pilla had dancers at a mass. That Bishop Allen Vigneron performed a type of tea ceremony wearing his liturgical vestments which are only to be worn for liturgical functions. Do I really need to go on? Did you even look at the page? These are not arguments these are facts.
Quote
It's not a reputable site so any "info" from it is not credible.
That is quite a stretch considering the info on the page I cited is easily verifiable from what I have recently found Cardinal Mahoney is known by many reputable Roman Catholics to be quite libertine.

Quote
I repeat my confusion as to why Orthodox Christians would care about the ravings of a disreputable site.
There has been a lot of talk, mostly on the RC side about some great coming reunion. I think it is insane to even think of such a thing when RC bishops are doing things like this and getting away with it. I also have Novus Ordo RC relatives and SSPX RC relatives so I decided to learn more and then I came to this forum so that I could ask other RCs or former RCs or Orthodox or anyone else for that matter interested what they thought and felt and see if any of them would like to discuss and/or argue it with me.

Jennifer I know you are a former RC so should I assume all your comments are biased and therefore suspect? I don't think so. If anything I would think you would know firsthand what is wrong with Roman Catholicism. I know when I was a kid and attended Easter mass and saw female "eucharistic ministers" carrying large chalices of wine that something was wrong. I was only eleven but I figured out right away that this is not what it was like when my dad was growing up. Can we at least agree that it was wrong for Pope Paul VI to suppress the Tridentine Mass and put in its place the terribly flawed Novus Ordo? Can we also agree that an Archbishop should be deposed when he wears a cheese head to mass or allows on of his presbyters to use cookies for the host?



Because it isn't disreputable. Traditio, whatever one may say about it, simply tries to collect any Latin Mass information it can and distribute it to those who want it. I don't support their work, but I can at least see a justification for having it; I was a Roman Catholic once, and I wanted to escape the "Kumbaya" masses. Whether we like it or not, the churches listed on Traditio do celebrate the way it was celebrated for the past 400 years. Those people are interested in Tradition and are willing to sacrifice union with the Papacy for it.

I see great hope for the return of such people to Orthodoxy, and many have.
I would say some of what is says is rather mean and that the site does have a heavy bias which makes much of what is says suspect. Calling Novus Ordo masses "messes" is rather mean and childish in my opinion. But I am happy you left and can understand where I am coming from.
Quote
Those people are interested in Tradition and are willing to sacrifice union with the Papacy for it.
Well I would say some may come back. St.Augustine's in Denver is a good example of what an Orthodox Latin Rite Mass (the Mass is said entirely in Latin at St.Augustine's unlike most Western Rite parishes) parish should look like and if we had more I think more RC traditionalists would convert. However when it comes to most RC traditionalists whether in SSPX, SSPV, or even more rigid groups like St.Gertrude's http://www.sgg.org/ that use the even older 1914 Missal, I don't think they are interested in Orthodoxy and in my experience are usually outspokenly against "reunion". They tend to take pre-Vatican II doctrine very seriously and do not waver.

[quote author=Νικολάος Διάκονος link=topic=6551.msg85394#msg85394 date=1120166955]
Some people also visit sites like Tradition and http://www.NovusOrdoWatch.org for entertainment. When I was a web designer for an RC order of priests a number of traditionalist RCs would check out both sites daily.
[/quote]
I admit this fascination of mine and others is rather odd but I just cannot help but find myself intrigued by the weirdness in the modern RC church. That's also probably why I occasionally watch EWTN.

There are some answers to be found at www.latinmassmagazine.com, review the articles there.

james
I have been to that site a few times and find many of its articles interesting. What comes up occasionally is the SSPX asking why the RC church no longer calls the Orthodox schismatic but refers to Archbishop Lefevbre and his bishops as such? James you are a Latin Mass RC right? I recall you having that listed once. I am curious what inclines you to believe that the RC church can clean up the abuse. Some even tell me that the American church is in virtual schism with Rome and that they would not be suprised if some time in the future the American Roman Catholic church splits with the Vatican permanently.
Logged

www.hungersite.com  Ãƒâ€šÃ‚  www.freedonation.com you can donate up to 20 times at freedonation.  http://www.pomog.org/ has online 1851 Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton English translation of Septuagint.http://www.cnrs.ubc.ca/greekbible/ Original Koine Septuagint and New Testament.
Sabbas
Drink from your own wells
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 503

St. Glicherie True Orthodox Church of Romania


« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2005, 10:20:50 PM »

Jennifer, I would have to disagree. We should be concerned about this for the simple reason that the Roman Church is an Ancient Apostolic Church like the Orthodox...yes Catholicism technically started in 1054 AD but in reality a few centuries earlier when Spainiards invented the Filioque)...

But back to my point...since the Roman Church is apostolic and our Orthodox church wants to one day be re-united with the Roman See, we cannot simply say "we'd like to be united to the Roman church whenever they accept the Orthodox teachings." What about the liturgy?? The liturgy is the prime example of how we (should) practise our Orthodoxy. Also, the Roman Rite is soooo beautiful and spiritual. If the Roman Church today was Orthodox and did te traditional mass (in the vernacular) I would so go once in a while to the Mass.

Did you notice the results of Vatican II on the Church? Now, churches in North America and Europe are empty. On a side note, churches in Greece are becoming less and less full as the church continues to use incomprehensible Koine Greek and is stepping away from it's traditional eastern Mediterranean values and outlook and is going crazy to be identified as European-which today is anything but religious.
Well I would not say that the Orthodox Church is seeking reunion. The Roman Patriarchate is simply vacant but should the Church choose it can revive it. The current Roman Pontiffs promote heresy and therefore cannot be said to be Apostolic successors. Also I am suprised you praise the Latin mass but are against the continued use of Koine in the Liturgy. It is simply a matter of taking the time to learn a bit of the language the same as RCs did before Vatican II. I usually say the Lord's prayer and the Creed in Latin because I like the sound of it better. For example in English we say, "And was crucified, also for us, under Pontius Pilate and suffered and was buried . . ." Whereas in Latin the sentence is, "Crucifixus etiam pro nobis sub Pontio Pilato passus et sepultus es . . . " Perhaps I am crazy but I just think it sounds better and it does not take very long to learn these prayers by heart so that when attending mass you know what is going on. The same goes for Koine. The problem is not the Church using Koine it is just that people don't care. Vatican II changed to the vernacular but did that encourage more people to come?
Other than that I agree with everything you said.
Logged

www.hungersite.com  Ãƒâ€šÃ‚  www.freedonation.com you can donate up to 20 times at freedonation.  http://www.pomog.org/ has online 1851 Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton English translation of Septuagint.http://www.cnrs.ubc.ca/greekbible/ Original Koine Septuagint and New Testament.
Timos
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 856



« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2005, 10:31:49 AM »

Hi Sabbas,
just to clarify, I was praising the actual Latin Rite Mass itself, in brackets I said that I liked it "in the vernacular". So the same thing we do here. For example at my Greek Orthodox Church, the priest switches from one petition to another from english to greek and the if the chanters knew better english they would do the chants in english too.

Also, I personally like the Koine greek but I don't see the use of it beign used when it is incomprehensible. Or maybe it should be used once in a while. But for Greeks in Greece, the modern greek should be used so ppl can understand whats happening. This doesn't mean we have to let go and have our own "Constantinople I and II" like the Vatican councils.

I'm actually quite surprised that Greek Americans are so insistent on using greek lots of the times but don't care when other traditions are replaced like the use of the organ instead of chanting, the beardless priests, etc...not that I have anything wrong with these things themselves- just the outcome of dropping traditions could lead from one thing to another until we become watered down like the catholic church is today.
Logged
Timos
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 856



« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2005, 10:36:32 AM »

Oh yeah, sorry Sabbas I rambled on instead of answering your question directly...

As for Vatican II changing the Mass to the vernacular, that was not the issue. That was actually the only thing good out of Vat. II but the problem lies in everything else...the altar girls, the priest facing the ppl...again these things themselves aren't the problem but the outcome is that this total lack of respect for tradition also leads to people having a lack for respect for the church. When the church itse;f starts to become easy going and non-traditional, what incentive drives the people to come? When they see these abuses they probably won't feel compelled and have a "why bother?" attitude.
Logged
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2005, 11:24:19 AM »

the altar girls, the priest facing the ppl...again these things themselves aren't the problem but the outcome is that this total lack of respect for tradition also leads to people having a lack for respect for the church. When the church itse;f starts to become easy going and non-traditional, what incentive drives the people to come? When they see these abuses they probably won't feel compelled and have a "why bother?" attitude.

You know, I just don't buy it. All those megachurches out there are obviously driving people away in droves this way.

See, the only people who think these are abuses are traditionalists, and the priests and bishops behind all this tend to believe, I'd wager, that the traditionalists are a captive audience because they are the sort of people who also take the obligation to show up no matter what very seriously.

Now, stunt masses are one thing. I think they are counter-productive because I think the gimmicky quality turns people off, but that's another issue. Versus populum is in my opinion less desirable, but after this many decades anyone under thirty is probably mourning for the good old days they've never seen. It's not the direction the priest faces that's a problem, but what's inside, and what comes out his mouth. Al Kimel, in all my days with him as my rector, never celebrated ad orientam once. It was his sermons and the seriousness with which he took the liturgy that made him a good priest, not the details of his praxis.
Logged
observer
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 546

Vivre die Raznitsa!


« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2005, 11:34:53 AM »

Disreputable website or not, this stuff has been going on for years. I saw it myself - dancing nuns, buddhist-like liturgies, people dressing up.  Oh its so sensitive to bring the Mass to the people, so why not worship in the garbage can?  I feel sorry for the average RC who has to witness this  PC nonsense.  But we are not immune either - look at the Canberra meeting with Orthodox Hierarchs, EP and MP mingling with witchdoctors.  The theme song (or hymn, or troparion??) was "Bunkum, Bunkum" - that's what it sounded like to me.  Forget the union with Rome and open our hearts to the RCs and pull them into the Ship.  Let the touchy-feelies in Rome and Constantinople do their own thing while we strive to mainiain and suffer for the True Faith.
Logged

Thou shalt not prefer one thing to another (Law of Liberalism)
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,748



« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2005, 12:03:22 PM »

Sabbas,

There are many "traditionalists" that believe the American RCC is in schism, and they are not sede-van's either, but there are many trying to change things . If you look at those added innovations ruining the RCC, they originated here in the US, most connected to feminism.

I might be a old rite RC but I do lean Eastward on many things, no I believe the Church of Rome is being pushed out of its 40 yr  wandering, but it is going to be a battle to rid it of the smoke of satan, that's where it needs assistance from the East.

People talk of war, well it is there, and it is a spiritual one, for a uncountable number of souls.

Ridicule will not help, it strengthens the legions of darkness.

james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2005, 04:45:15 PM »

St. Augustine's in Denver is a good example of what an Orthodox Latin Rite Mass (the Mass is said entirely in Latin at St.Augustine's unlike most Western Rite parishes) parish should look like and if we had more I think more RC traditionalists would convert.

Sabbas,

The situation which you are describing above is absolutely unbelievable! It sounds as if you are talking about a "reverse uniatism", where in your opinion, if the Orthodox Church's Western Rite Mass is made to be absolutely just like the old Roman Rite Mass, then we'll obviously be able to get the RC's to jump ship and join the Church.

Now I can see why Roman Catholics would think that the Western Rite is some kind of trickery used to try to and steal sheep from their pews, because of statements like your own above. Your words only fuel this fire and I can't believe that you would be under the assumption that this would be an "okay" or ideal situation.

Traditional Roman Catholics stay with the Catholic Church because they see how the Pope of Rome is infallible, they believe in purgatory, the believe in the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of the BVM. They would never become Orthodox just because we can put on a liturgy which is what they are accustomed to!

In Christ,
Aaron
« Last Edit: July 01, 2005, 04:46:37 PM by Arystarcus » Logged
Jakub
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,748



« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2005, 05:01:28 PM »

Aaron,

I do not believe the Pope is infallible, now a sort of purification state maybe, matters concerning the Virgin Mary / Theotokos I tend to leave in a mystical state.

Is the Almighty going to zap me ? I doubt it, I am not going/entering paradise due to the Pope.


james
Logged

An old timer is a man who's had a lot of interesting experiences -- some of them true.

Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to tell the difference.
Sabbas
Drink from your own wells
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 503

St. Glicherie True Orthodox Church of Romania


« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2005, 08:33:16 PM »

Sabbas,

The situation which you are describing above is absolutely unbelievable! It sounds as if you are talking about a "reverse uniatism", where in your opinion, if the Orthodox Church's Western Rite Mass is made to be absolutely just like the old Roman Rite Mass, then we'll obviously be able to get the RC's to jump ship and join the Church.

Now I can see why Roman Catholics would think that the Western Rite is some kind of trickery used to try to and steal sheep from their pews, because of statements like your own above. Your words only fuel this fire and I can't believe that you would be under the assumption that this would be an "okay" or ideal situation.

Traditional Roman Catholics stay with the Catholic Church because they see how the Pope of Rome is infallible, they believe in purgatory, the believe in the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of the BVM. They would never become Orthodox just because we can put on a liturgy which is what they are accustomed to!

In Christ,
Aaron
What is wrong with the Mass being in Latin? There are alot of people out there that believe in the Orthodoxy of the Mass and want to be Orthodox. No one is forcing them to be there! The people in the Western Rite are people who want to live as their Orthodox forbearers did before heretics took control of the Patriarchate of Rome. What is wrong with that?
By the way where did I say that the goal of the Western Rite is to persuade RCs to "jump ship"?
I also did not say that the Orthodox Western Rite should make itself as much as possible like the Tridentine Mass just before Vatican II?
Why are you so harsh and critical of the Western Rite? I am sorrying for repeating myself but I am shocked that you can be so cruel toward those who simply want to be Orthodox and experience the Liturgy used throughout the West before 1054.
Your post also shocks me because you seem to believe the Church has some duty to the Roman Catholics to not allow its members to have the Latin Mass but instead tell them to go to Rome even though they do not believe in the Roman Catholic doctrines you mentioned.
Quote
Traditional Roman Catholics stay with the Catholic Church because they see how the Pope of Rome is infallible, they believe in purgatory, the believe in the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of the BVM. They would never become Orthodox just because we can put on a liturgy which is what they are accustomed to!
If you will look at my previous post
Well I would say some may come back. St.Augustine's in Denver is a good example of what an Orthodox Latin Rite Mass (the Mass is said entirely in Latin at St.Augustine's unlike most Western Rite parishes) parish should look like and if we had more I think more RC traditionalists would convert. However when it comes to most RC traditionalists whether in SSPX, SSPV, or even more rigid groups like St.Gertrude's http://www.sgg.org/ that use the even older 1914 Missal, I don't think they are interested in Orthodoxy and in my experience are usually outspokenly against "reunion".
I clearly acknowledged that most RC traditionalilsts would not simply come to Orthodoxy because of its Western Rite. However if you spent some time with RC traditionalists and talked to them you would see that the reason many of them stay is because they love the Latin Mass and some are quite open to discussing why the Orthodox Church considers doctrines such as the IC of the Virgin Mary and Papal Infallibility heretical.

I am sorry for being rude but I just can't understand why you are attacking your Orthodox brothers at St.Augustine's. My former priest, at the Eastern Rite Orthodox Church I attend, spent several years serving the Mass in Latin at one of the Wetstern Rite parishes and he told me that there is nothing un-Orthodox about the Western Rite and the Western Rite is not some form of Orthodox uniatism and from what I understand many Orthodox bishops are outspokenly against it. The Western Rite only exists because of lay people and a few presbyters who are striving to revive their heritage. If you read "The Lion" http://www.westernorthodox.com/stmark/lion/ you'll see they are just as Orthodox as anybody in the Eastern Rite.

Also don't assume I don't know where you are coming from. In previous discussions I have mentioned that I think the Western Rite is in many ways purposely not following the Western Rite as it was practiced before the Schism particularly in the area of pews and some parishes using an organ.

Hi Sabbas,
just to clarify, I was praising the actual Latin Rite Mass itself, in brackets I said that I liked it "in the vernacular". So the same thing we do here. For example at my Greek Orthodox Church, the priest switches from one petition to another from english to greek and the if the chanters knew better english they would do the chants in english too.

Also, I personally like the Koine greek but I don't see the use of it beign used when it is incomprehensible. Or maybe it should be used once in a while. But for Greeks in Greece, the modern greek should be used so ppl can understand whats happening. This doesn't mean we have to let go and have our own "Constantinople I and II" like the Vatican councils.

I'm actually quite surprised that Greek Americans are so insistent on using greek lots of the times but don't care when other traditions are replaced like the use of the organ instead of chanting, the beardless priests, etc...not that I have anything wrong with these things themselves- just the outcome of dropping traditions could lead from one thing to another until we become watered down like the catholic church is today.
Sorry I raced through your post and did not see that. But still I stand by my position. Latin is the proper language and it is not hard to learn the prayers of the Mass. People in the West did it for nearly two thousand years. This page shows the Gregorian Canon and this parallel English translation is how people followed the Mass in the "ol' days". Usually people would learn the prayers as they grew up and would seldom have to check the Missal to follow along. I also just think it sounds better. Ecce Agnus Dei, ecce qui tollit peccata mundi. Domine, nom sum dignus ut intres sub tectum meum; sed tantum dic verbo, et sanabitur anima mea. But again maybe I'm just crazy   Tongue 
Disreputable website or not, this stuff has been going on for years. I saw it myself - dancing nuns, buddhist-like liturgies, people dressing up. Oh its so sensitive to bring the Mass to the people, so why not worship in the garbage can? I feel sorry for the average RC who has to witness this PC nonsense. But we are not immune either - look at the Canberra meeting with Orthodox Hierarchs, EP and MP mingling with witchdoctors. The theme song (or hymn, or troparion??) was "Bunkum, Bunkum" - that's what it sounded like to me. Forget the union with Rome and open our hearts to the RCs and pull them into the Ship. Let the touchy-feelies in Rome and Constantinople do their own thing while we strive to mainiain and suffer for the True Faith.
I agree Canberra was bad but it was no where near what goes on in the Roman Catholic church.
Sabbas,

There are many "traditionalists" that believe the American RCC is in schism, and they are not sede-van's either, but there are many trying to change things . If you look at those added innovations ruining the RCC, they originated here in the US, most connected to feminism.

I might be a old rite RC but I do lean Eastward on many things, no I believe the Church of Rome is being pushed out of its 40 yr wandering, but it is going to be a battle to rid it of the smoke of satan, that's where it needs assistance from the East.

People talk of war, well it is there, and it is a spiritual one, for a uncountable number of souls.

Ridicule will not help, it strengthens the legions of darkness.

james
I am not ridiculing the Roman Catholic church but shocked and intrigued by much of what goes on. I am also curious what specifically you would point to as a return to tradition. Yes Pope Benedict XVI's recent book on the Liturgy is good but what measures are being taken?

See, the only people who think these are abuses are traditionalists,
I would disagree. Many conservative but Novus Ordo RCs seriously dislike the lay ministries and in particular think that receiving communion from a lay person is wrong and goes entirely against Roman Catholic dogma.
Logged

www.hungersite.com  Ãƒâ€šÃ‚  www.freedonation.com you can donate up to 20 times at freedonation.  http://www.pomog.org/ has online 1851 Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton English translation of Septuagint.http://www.cnrs.ubc.ca/greekbible/ Original Koine Septuagint and New Testament.
Arystarcus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Christian
Posts: 836


« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2005, 09:23:31 PM »

Quote
What is wrong with the Mass being in Latin?

Absolutely nothing.

Quote
The people in the Western Rite are people who want to live as their Orthodox forbearers did before heretics took control of the Patriarchate of Rome. What is wrong with that?

See my reply above..

Quote
By the way where did I say that the goal of the Western Rite is to persuade RCs to "jump ship"?
I also did not say that the Orthodox Western Rite should make itself as much as possible like the Tridentine Mass just before Vatican II?

I know you did not say it "outrightly", but it appeared to be implied when you said"

Quote
if we had more I think more RC traditionalists would convert.

Which I took to mean that if the Orthodox Western Rite Churches "had more... Orthodox Latin Rite Mass (the Mass is said entirely in Latin...", then traditionalists would obviously come over in droves.

Quote
Why are you so harsh and critical of the Western Rite?

I'm not.

Quote
I am shocked that you can be so cruel toward those who simply want to be Orthodox and experience the Liturgy used throughout the West before 1054.

You shouldn't be shocked, because I wasn't being cruel towards any Orthodox of the Western Rite. I was merely posting a response to your implication which I quoted above.

Quote
Your post also shocks me because you seem to believe the Church has some duty to the Roman Catholics to not allow its members to have the Latin Mass but instead tell them to go to Rome even though they do not believe in the Roman Catholic doctrines you mentioned.

I don't seem to think anything that you are implying, because I am not. If you want a pre-Roman Catholic western liturgy, why not the Sarum Rite? That would be more logical to me than a Tridentine High Mass, in Latin.

Quote
However if you spent some time with RC traditionalists and talked to them you would see that the reason many of them stay is because they love the Latin Mass

I have - I dabbled in the traditionalist scene for a short period of time many moons ago.

Quote
some are quite open to discussing why the Orthodox Church considers doctrines such as the IC of the Virgin Mary and Papal Infallibility heretical.

I never came across any of this stripe before, so maybe you have been lucky.

Quote
I am sorry for being rude but I just can't understand why you are attacking your Orthodox brothers at St.Augustine's.

If you will read over this reply, it should become evident that I was not attacking anyone of the Western Rite, nor anyone at St. Augustine's.

Quote
My former priest, at the Eastern Rite Orthodox Church I attend, spent several years serving the Mass in Latin at one of the Wetstern Rite parishes and he told me that there is nothing un-Orthodox about the Western Rite and the Western Rite is not some form of Orthodox uniatism and from what I understand many Orthodox bishops are outspokenly against it.

I do not believe it to be a form of uniatism either, unless one proposes that if the Western Rite communites only offered more Tridentine Masses in Latin, then "more RC traditionalists would convert" - as you said.

As I said earlier, if you want pre-schism western praxis, why not the Sarum Rite?

As illustrated here:

http://www.orthodoxresurgence.co.uk/Petroc/

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good Latin High Mass as much as the next guy, I am just saying that truly pre-schism western liturgy would be Sarum and not a Tridentine Mass.

In Christ,
Aaron
Logged
yBeayf
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 708

/etc


« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2005, 09:49:25 PM »

Quote
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good Latin High Mass as much as the next guy, I am just saying that truly pre-schism western liturgy would be Sarum and not a Tridentine Mass.

Except the Tridentine mass is simply the mass of the Roman rite purged of the accretions that developed in the period between the schism and Trent. There's nothing particularly post-schism about it. And even if you don't accept it as a legitimate Orthodox rite, the Sarum rite, and others like the Ambrosian and Bragan, or even very minor usages like York or Cologne, are virtually identical with the Roman rite.

Looking at the Ambrosian rite, for example, the most noticeable differences between its mass and the Roman mass are that it doesn't have the Introibo and Confiteor, has an ingressus instead of an introit, the Kyrie comes after the Gloria, there's a psalmellus instead of a gradual, the deacon and subdeacon stand at either end of the altar instead of behind the priest during the Canon, the lavabo is right before the consecration, the priest extends his hands in the form of a cross during at "unde et memores" and there is no Agnus Dei except at requiem masses. In other words, there are a lot of niggling differences, but nothing that is worth declaring one mass Orthodox and the other not. They are so similar that if you accept one as Orthodox, you have to accept the other.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2005, 10:00:07 PM by Beayf » Logged
Sabbas
Drink from your own wells
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 503

St. Glicherie True Orthodox Church of Romania


« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2005, 11:38:42 PM »

Absolutely nothing.

See my reply above..

I know you did not say it "outrightly", but it appeared to be implied when you said"

Which I took to mean that if the Orthodox Western Rite Churches "had more... Orthodox Latin Rite Mass (the Mass is said entirely in Latin...", then traditionalists would obviously come over in droves.

I'm not.

You shouldn't be shocked, because I wasn't being cruel towards any Orthodox of the Western Rite. I was merely posting a response to your implication which I quoted above.

I don't seem to think anything that you are implying, because I am not. If you want a pre-Roman Catholic western liturgy, why not the Sarum Rite? That would be more logical to me than a Tridentine High Mass, in Latin.

I have - I dabbled in the traditionalist scene for a short period of time many moons ago.

I never came across any of this stripe before, so maybe you have been lucky.

If you will read over this reply, it should become evident that I was not attacking anyone of the Western Rite, nor anyone at St. Augustine's.

I do not believe it to be a form of uniatism either, unless one proposes that if the Western Rite communites only offered more Tridentine Masses in Latin, then "more RC traditionalists would convert" - as you said.

As I said earlier, if you want pre-schism western praxis, why not the Sarum Rite?

As illustrated here:

http://www.orthodoxresurgence.co.uk/Petroc/

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good Latin High Mass as much as the next guy, I am just saying that truly pre-schism western liturgy would be Sarum and not a Tridentine Mass.

In Christ,
Aaron
Sorry for over-reacting in my last post. What I was trying to say was: I think if there were more Western Rite parishes that serve the Latin Mass more disaffected RCs and some traditionalists, certainly not a large percentage, would find it easier to come to the Orthodox Church. I know that is the case with my Dad who is going to be brought into the Church with me on the Feast of the Transfiguration. He has been a catechumen for over a year and three months and went through many mental trials because he grew up pre-Vatican II and had an attachment to the Latin Mass. He has come around to the Eastern Rite but he still tells me it would be much easier for him if there was a Western Rite parish we could go to. I also know that my sister, who was raised Novus Ordo and then left to join SSPX with her husband, is flexible when discussing what Orthodoxy considers to be heretical about Roman Catholicism. Personally I find it just as easy to attend Latin Mass as the Eastern Liturgy and would like to be able to attend Latin Mass.
However, like I mentioned before, I have strong reservations about the Western Rite as it exists in the Antiochian Archdiocese due to the allowance of organs, what I perceive to be a stubborn persistance on the part of various members of the the Western Rite to continue venerating RC saints like Francis of Assisi and Bernard of Clairvaux, and many members not fully rejecting of the heretical beliefs of Roman Catholicism. For example one member of a Western Rite parish who posts here has stated several times that he believes before Vatican II that the Roman Catholic church had the Mysteries and cannot be said to have been heretical. While I admit I am curious about Bernard of Clairvaux and the even the veneration some in the Western Rite have for the Martyred King Charles I I cannot say I think organs should be allowed to overpower the beauty of Gregorian chant nor do I think a Western Rite priest should allow parishoners to believe whatever they about pre-Vatican II Roman Catholicism if that is indeed what is happening.
I also have said that I would like to see a Western Rite parish that is exactly like what a parish in the Orthodox West would have looked like which would mean no pews and no organs. It is also out of this desire for a resurrection of the pre-Schism West that I would like the Western Rite in the Antiochian Archdioceses to allow the use of the Gallican Liturgy and the Lorra-Stowe Missal of Ireland.

Except the Tridentine mass is simply the mass of the Roman rite purged of the accretions that developed in the period between the schism and Trent. There's nothing particularly post-schism about it. And even if you don't accept it as a legitimate Orthodox rite, the Sarum rite, and others like the Ambrosian and Bragan, or even very minor usages like York or Cologne, are virtually identical with the Roman rite.

Looking at the Ambrosian rite, for example, the most noticeable differences between its mass and the Roman mass are that it doesn't have the Introibo and Confiteor, has an ingressus instead of an introit, the Kyrie comes after the Gloria, there's a psalmellus instead of a gradual, the deacon and subdeacon stand at either end of the altar instead of behind the priest during the Canon, the lavabo is right before the consecration, the priest extends his hands in the form of a cross during at "unde et memores" and there is no Agnus Dei except at requiem masses. In other words, there are a lot of niggling differences, but nothing that is worth declaring one mass Orthodox and the other not. They are so similar that if you accept one as Orthodox, you have to accept the other.
Thank you for pointing that out! The Gallican Liturgy and the Celtic Liturgy seem to be the only Western Liturgies that differ significantly with the Gregorian Liturgy though it is difficult to know just how different they were particularly with the Celtic Liturgy due to the dearth of information that has come down to us.

Let me add here that when I started this discussion I meant to make the point that perhaps the biggest obstacle to some future reunion of the RCs and the Orthodox is the Novus Ordo and also the way priests and bishops are allowed or even encouraged to do wacky during mass. Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi! What they express in their Novus Ordo masses are not Orthodox by a long shot and never can be. We as Orthodox do not condone the turning around of the altar or the laity handing out communion so how could we possibly join with the RCs even if many of our bishops continue to white-wash issues like the filioque and created grace? One thing the Liturgy manifests is the organic development of the Church through its unwavering adherence to Holy Tradition and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. What the Novus Ordo shows is a scrapping of Tradition and disrespect toward the Covenant our Lord established with us. To condone it in any way is wrong. Even in the most conservative of Novus Ordo RC parishes one cannot help but feel that something is very wrong when the priest is facing you and holds us the host and then the chalice as if he is worshipping you. Imagine going to Liturgy and having the priest face you when he says, "We offer unto Thee Thine own of Thine own."

I do not believe there will be any reunion in the future unless some extremely big changes are made, which I can't imagine how they ever would be implemented or accepted by modern RCs, but I would say a big thing they would have to do is go back to the Latin Mass and excommunicate all who refuse to denounce the Novus Ordo as an abomination created by the humanist and Marxist leaning Cardinal Bugnini. Can you imagine such a thing evey happening? Neither can I.
Logged

www.hungersite.com  Ãƒâ€šÃ‚  www.freedonation.com you can donate up to 20 times at freedonation.  http://www.pomog.org/ has online 1851 Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton English translation of Septuagint.http://www.cnrs.ubc.ca/greekbible/ Original Koine Septuagint and New Testament.
Jennifer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,154


« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2005, 01:17:01 AM »


nor do I think a Western Rite priest should allow parishoners to believe whatever they about pre-Vatican II Roman Catholicism if that is indeed what is happening.


An Orthodox Christian is not forbidden to believe that the pre or post Vatican II Roman Catholic mysteries were "valid."  I'm not western rite but believe that the RCC has valid sacraments.  It's been my experience that most real life Orthodox Christians agree with me. So it's not a question of a priest "allowing" a parishioner to believe this but rather that Orthodoxy doesn't say one way or the other so agnosticism on this point is allowed. 

Logged
Victor
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2005, 11:48:37 AM »

Jennifer, do you know the Orthodox Church's official position so I may read it?

Augustine, under the thread Is the catholic holy water "holy"? seems to disagree you with you. So I am confused.ÂÂ  Huh

Would appreaciate it.

~Victor

« Last Edit: July 03, 2005, 11:49:04 AM by Victor » Logged
Jennifer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,154


« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2005, 01:51:52 PM »

Jennifer, do you know the Orthodox Church's official position so I may read it?

Augustine, under the thread Is the catholic holy water "holy"? seems to disagree you with you. So I am confused.  Huh

Would appreaciate it.

~Victor



Victor, the Orthodox Church has no official position regarding Roman Catholic sacraments.  Some Orthodox believe they have no grace.  Other Orthodox believe they have grace. 

Logged
Nigula Qian Zishi
Administrator Emeritus, Retired Deacon, Inactive Poster, Active Orthodox Christian, Father, and Husband
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Posts: 1,836


我美丽的妻子和我。

nstanosheck
WWW
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2005, 02:54:59 PM »

Victor, the Orthodox Church has no official position regarding Roman Catholic sacraments.ÂÂ  Some Orthodox believe they have no grace.ÂÂ  Other Orthodox believe they have grace.

This is modern mistake about the Orthodox teaching on Grace being in the "Mysteries" only of the Church. Today people are just confused by the overuse of economy, making them think that the Orthodox Church accepts Grace being in the "Mysteries" outside the Church, which She does not.ÂÂ  As has been covered many times before here, when someone is received by the 2nd Rite of Chrismation, it is not because their baptism was considered Grace-filled, but is done out of economy IF the form was correct at the choosing of the Bishop.

As the anathema against ecumenism says, "Those who attack the Church of Christ by teaching that Christ's Church is divided into so-called "branches" which differ in doctrine and way of life, or that the Church does not exist visibly, but will be formed in the future when all "branches" or sects or denominations, and even religions will be united into one body; and who do not distinguish the priesthood and mysteries of the Church from those of the heretics, but say that the baptism and eucharist of heretics is effectual for salvation; therefore, to those who knowingly have communion with these aforementioned heretics or who advocate, disseminate, or defend their new heresy of Ecumenism under the pretext of brotherly love or the supposed unification of separated Christians, Anathema!"

For those that think ROCOR is schismatic, I provide this, In his booklet Apostolic Succession, Fr. Gregory Rogers says about Grace of mysteries inside and outside the Church, "Orthodox see this clearly in our doctrine of Apostolic Succession. We emphatically maintain that
the succession only exists (and that it only makes sense) within the community of the Church.
This reflects the Orthodox communal view of grace. It seems that the corresponding statement
about baptism is the most Orthodox: that baptism is a sacramental action of the community that
unites an outsider with that community. Similar statements can be made about the other
mysteries: they are communal actions of the Church and can be understood only in context of
the community. By their very definition as actions and celebrations of the community, they
cannot exist outside the community
.

Saint Theophan the Recluse says it clearly in one sentence, " For outside Orthodox there is NO grace"

And for those saying the Roman Catholic CHurch was never anathematized, here is just one of the times it was:

The Decrees of the Pan-Orthodox Councils of 1583 and 1593

SIGILLION

of the Patriarchal formulation of an encyclical to Orthodox Christians
throughout the world not to accept the modernistic Paschalion, or calendar
of the innovated Menologion, but to keep what was once for all and well-
formulated by the three hundred and eighteen Holy God-bearing Fathers
of the First Ecumenical Council, under penalty of penance and anathema.

To all the genuine Christian children of the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church of Christ of the East residing in Trigovysti and throughout the world, be grace and peace and mercy from God Almighty.

No small turbulence overtook that ancient Ark, when, violently beset by billows, it floated upon the surface of the waters, and had not the Lord God remembered Noah and seen fit to still the water, there would have been no hope for it at all. Thus also in regard to the New Ark of our Church, against which misbelievers have launched an implacable war upon us, by means of these presents we have decided to leave a note that you may have in what is herein written the means of upholding and defending your Orthodoxy against such enemies more safely and surely. But, lest the composition as a whole be weary to the simpler folks, we have decided to embody the matter in common language, wording it as follows (in Common Language):

From old Rome have come certain persons who learned there to wear Latin habits. The worst of it is how, from being Romans of Rumelia bred and born, they not only have changed their faith, but they even wage war upon the Orthodox dogmas and truths of the Eastern Church which have been delivered to us by Christ and the divine Apostles and the Holy Councils of the Holy Fathers. Therefore, cutting off these persons as rotten members, we command:

1) That whoever does not confess with heart and mouth that he is a child of the Eastern Church baptized in Orthodox style, and that the Holy Spirit proceeds out of only the Father, essentially and hypostatically, as Christ says in the Gospel, shall be outside of our Church and shall be anathematized.

2) That whoever does not confess that at the Mystery of the Holy Communion the laity must also partake of both kinds, of the Precious Body and Blood, but instead says that he will partake only of the body, and that that is sufficient because therein is both flesh and blood, when as a matter of fact Christ died and administered each separately, and they who fail to keep such customs, let all such persons be anathematized.

3) That whoever says that our Lord Jesus Christ at the Mystic Supper had unleavened bread (made without yeast), like that of the Jews, and not leavened bread, that is to say, bread raised with yeast, let him depart far away from us and let him be anathema as one having Jewish views and those of Apollinarius and bringing dogmas of the Armenians into the Church, on which account let him be doubly anathema.

4) Whoever says that our Christ and God, when he comes to judge us, does not come to judge souls together with bodies, or embodied souls, but instead comes to sentence only bodies, let him be anathema.

5) Whoever says that the souls of Christians who repented while in the world but failed to perform their penance go to a purgatory of fire when they die, where there is flame and punishment, and are purified, which is simply an ancient Greek myth, and those who, like Origen, think that hell is not everlasting, and thereby afford or offer the liberty or incentive to sin, let him and all such persons be anathema.

6) That whoever says that the Pope is the head of the Church, and not Christ, and that he has authority to admit persons to Paradise with his letters of indulgence or other passports, and can forgive sins as many as a person may commit if such person pay money to receive from him indulgences, i.e. licenses to sin, let every such person be anathema.

7) That whoever does not follow the customs of the Church as the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils decreed, and Holy Pascha, and the Menologion with which they did well in making it a law that we should follow it, and wishes to follow the newly-invented Paschalion and the New Menologion of the atheist astronomers of the Pope, and opposes all those things and wishes to overthrow and destroy the dogmas and customs of the Church which have been handed down by our fathers, let him suffer anathema and be put out of the Church of Christ and out of the Congregation of the Faithful.

8) That ye pious and Orthodox Christians remain faithful in what ye have been taught and have been born and brought up in, and when the time calls for it and there be need, that your very blood be shed in order to safeguard the Faith handed down by our Fathers and your confession: and that ye beware of such persons as have been described or referred to in the foregoing paragraphs, in order that our Lord Jesus Christ may help you and at the same time may the prayer of our mediocrity be with all of you: amen.

Done in the year of the God-man 1583 (MDLXXXIII), year of indiction 12, November 20.

+ Jeremiah of Constantinople
+ Sylvester of Alexandria
+ Sophronius of Jerusalem

In the presence of the rest of the prelates at the Council.


Here are some good links for this information:

http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/letters_from_convert.htm
« Last Edit: July 03, 2005, 02:55:35 PM by ΝικολάÎÆ» Logged

在基督         My Original Blog
尼古拉         My Facebook Profile
前执事         My Twitter Page
Jennifer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,154


« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2005, 06:22:32 PM »

I won't argue that ROCOR is schismatic but I also wouldn't argue that ROCOR's position is the official Orthodox position. 

I repeat, there is no official position about the validity of Roman Catholic sacraments. 

Logged
Sabbas
Drink from your own wells
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 503

St. Glicherie True Orthodox Church of Romania


« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2005, 09:27:27 PM »

Jennifer that was not the position of ROCOR mentioned but a Pan-Orthodox Council. Please read the post!

Lets not get bogged down here. The point is you cannot be Orthodox without denouncing Roman Catholicism as heresy. There is only One, Holy, Apostolic, and Catholic Church. That is the official position of the Orthodox Church. This is why the Western Rite exists. Why else would they leave the Roman Catholic church unless they wanted to join themselves to the Church which alone has the Mysteries?
Logged

www.hungersite.com  Ãƒâ€šÃ‚  www.freedonation.com you can donate up to 20 times at freedonation.  http://www.pomog.org/ has online 1851 Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton English translation of Septuagint.http://www.cnrs.ubc.ca/greekbible/ Original Koine Septuagint and New Testament.
Jennifer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,154


« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2005, 10:18:31 PM »

I know plenty of good pious Orthodox Christians who don't go around "denouncing" Roman Catholics as heretics.  You're correct that we believe that some of the teachings of Roman Catholicism are heresies.  However, that does not mean that we "denounce" them. 

BTW, I know some good pious Orthodox priests who believe that there may be grace in Roman Catholic sacraments.  I know a priest who used to pray before the Blessed Sacrament in an RC parish.  I'm sure you'd "denounce" him but he's been at this much longer than you or me so I'll pay more attention to him. 

I'm going to comment once again on how different the on-line Orthodox world is from the real-life Orthodox world for any of our visitors.  In a real Orthodox church, you don't hear "denunciations" of heresy.  Real Orthodox people are much more concerned with their own salvation than "denouncing" others.  Also, real Orthodox people have affection for other traditional Christians.  Most of us are related to non-Orthodox. 

Logged
Augustine
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 565

pray for me, please


WWW
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2005, 09:15:07 AM »

Jennifer,

Quote
I know plenty of good pious Orthodox Christians who don't go around "denouncing" Roman Catholics as heretics.  You're correct that we believe that some of the teachings of Roman Catholicism are heresies.  However, that does not mean that we "denounce" them.

Good point - unless the topic is pressed, or the Orthodox faith is being attacked in some wise, there is no need to focus on this.  Certainly, it's not healthy for one to walk around pre-occupied with how wrong everyone else is.

Quote
BTW, I know some good pious Orthodox priests who believe that there may be grace in Roman Catholic sacraments.

I think it's healthy that they're stressing that word - may.  In the end, I think it's fair to say that this topic has been made all the more confusing by a heretical type of "ecumenism" on one side, and a rabid over-reaction which falsely believes correctness is to be found in becoming the antithesis of your ideological opponents.  Both approaches are misguided, and I think fall outside of the calm, yet firm position taken by the Church throughout the ages.

In the end, it's God Who gives grace - and obviously, He can give this in whatever measure wherever He wants, to whoever He wants.  It would be imbecillic for anyone to insist otherwise.

However, as far as the Church can be concerned, She can obviously only understand Her own sacraments to be "true" ones.    Again, this topic is confused all the more because in recent centuries certain parts of the Orthodox world began to try discussing this topic with a vocabularly which was basically foreign to Orthodoxy - something many contemporary Orthodox theologians have refered to as a theological pseudomorphesus.  Fortunately, one of the real accomplishments of the 20th century was the return of many Orthodox academics and "school theologians" to a native, and more authentic way of phrasing and conceptualizing these truths.

This is why, whenever the Church does accept certain sacramental rites administered in a schism or heresy, She can only be said to do such by economy - because what She is accepting, is not Her own, but is being made Her own - and being given whatever it was lacking.  OTOH, while practiced with different levels of frequency depending on the time and place, the Church also has every right to simply ignore what those who are ostensibly alien to Her have administered.  This can and does happen, in certain places as a matter of course.

Now, if we doggedly insist upon an unqualified "validity" or equivelence between Orthodox Sacraments and those of the heterodox, one has to condemn what the Church does, and has done, in many times and places, as being sacreligious.   I don't know about you, but I have a hard time with that.

Quote
I know a priest who used to pray before the Blessed Sacrament in an RC parish.  I'm sure you'd "denounce" him but he's been at this much longer than you or me so I'll pay more attention to him.

Well that may be so, but this doesn't make what he was up to kosher.  I'm sure he's a lovely man with many virtues, but that doesn't make this at all correct.

Quote
I'm going to comment once again on how different the on-line Orthodox world is from the real-life Orthodox world for any of our visitors.  In a real Orthodox church, you don't hear "denunciations" of heresy.  Real Orthodox people are much more concerned with their own salvation than "denouncing" others.  Also, real Orthodox people have affection for other traditional Christians.  Most of us are related to non-Orthodox.

Oh I agree, "reality" is in many respects quite a bit different than what you find on these forums.  But that cuts both ways.

While it's true that people tend to be much less ostentatious and pushy in the "real world", it's also true that you'll find alot of folks who are not sufficiently informed on this (or sadly many other far more important topics) subject to actually give an informed opinion - and sadly, North America is not the best place to pick up on this topic "via osmosis".

Logged
Sabbas
Drink from your own wells
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 503

St. Glicherie True Orthodox Church of Romania


« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2005, 01:03:50 PM »

I know plenty of good pious Orthodox Christians who don't go around "denouncing" Roman Catholics as heretics. You're correct that we believe that some of the teachings of Roman Catholicism are heresies. However, that does not mean that we "denounce" them.
I never said we should denounce individuals but the ideology known as Roman Catholicism. By definition we are denouncing Roman Catholicism because we believe it is heresy; it is evil and reprehensible.

This is not to say that there is nothing good in the Roman Catholic church but the problem is that it is poisoned by heresy. I do not think I am going to far by saying this considering that various Church Fathers refer to heresy as being a poison.

Let us get to the heart of what I was trying to say: you cannot be Orthodox and be Roman Catholic! If you support or condone the heresy of Roman Catholicism you automatically separate yourself from the Church.

BTW, I know some good pious Orthodox priests who believe that there may be grace in Roman Catholic sacraments. I know a priest who used to pray before the Blessed Sacrament in an RC parish. I'm sure you'd "denounce" him but he's been at this much longer than you or me so I'll pay more attention to him.

One priest in several million. I think I will pay attention to the priests I know who tell their parishoners not even to go into a non-Orthodox church unless it is for a funeral or wedding. BTW did you know that there are prayers for the cleansing of a Church if heretics take hold of it and perform various rites in it. Praying in a heretical church and taking part in that heresy is no light matter.

I'm going to comment once again on how different the on-line Orthodox world is from the real-life Orthodox world for any of our visitors. In a real Orthodox church, you don't hear "denunciations" of heresy. Real Orthodox people are much more concerned with their own salvation than "denouncing" others. Also, real Orthodox people have affection for other traditional Christians. Most of us are related to non-Orthodox.

Jennifer it used to be, I think it still is in some places, that when a Roman Catholic became a catechumen they were required to read a denunciation of the heretical teachings of Roman Catholicism as part of their entry into the catechumenate or upon Chrismation or in some cases being accepted into the Church through simple statement of Orthodox Faith and receiving Communion.
Also, as Augustine said, it is a mistake to assume that what goes on in American is true for the rest of the world. A lot of things go on amongst Orthodox in America that would never happen in an Orthodox country.

Also you seem to not have read any of the other posts I have written where I mention that all my relatives are non-Orthodox and I get along fine with them. A few of my relatives are agnostics and atheists and though I occasionally get into arguments about "how can you prove God exists? etc." we get along fine and love each other. However part of seeking your own salvation is knowing what is false, what is heresy, and among those things which are false is the heresy of Roman Catholicism. As for individuals who are born Roman Catholic I do not consider them heretics as most of them have never even made a conscious decision to be opposed to Orthodoxy and have no first hand knowledge of the True Faith. Also I do not think it is right for any laymen to denounce any individual as a heretic but to leave that to the bishops.

Can we please get back to the main issue of the discussion: why the Novus Ordo Roman Catholic church could never be "reunited" to the Orthodox Church. I am particularly referring to why the Orthodox Church could never accept the Novus Ordo mass as acceptable for the celebration of the Eucharist.
Logged

www.hungersite.com  Ãƒâ€šÃ‚  www.freedonation.com you can donate up to 20 times at freedonation.  http://www.pomog.org/ has online 1851 Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton English translation of Septuagint.http://www.cnrs.ubc.ca/greekbible/ Original Koine Septuagint and New Testament.
Keble
All-Knowing Grand Wizard of Debunking
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 3,432



« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2005, 01:17:24 PM »

Jennifer it used to be, I think it still is in some places, that when a Roman Catholic became a catechumen they were required to read a denunciation of the heretical teachings of Roman Catholicism as part of their entry into the catechumenate or upon Chrismation or in some cases being accepted into the Church through simple statement of Orthodox Faith and receiving Communion.

I've seen some of these (from Antiochian books). They are often inaccurate as to what they claim that other denominations teach.
Logged
Jennifer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,154


« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2005, 01:54:09 PM »

Let us get to the heart of what I was trying to say: you cannot be Orthodox and be Roman Catholic! If you support or condone the heresy of Roman Catholicism you automatically separate yourself from the Church.

I completely agree that we cannot be both Orthodox and Roman Catholic which is why I wonder why you have such a fascination with the ravings of traditionalist Roman Catholics.  When I became a catechumen in the Orthodox Church I quit worrying about these things. 

Quote
Jennifer it used to be, I think it still is in some places, that when a Roman Catholic became a catechumen they were required to read a denunciation of the heretical teachings of Roman Catholicism as part of their entry into the catechumenate or upon Chrismation or in some cases being accepted into the Church through simple statement of Orthodox Faith and receiving Communion.

When I chrismated, I renounced (note that renuncation and denuciation are not the same thing) heretical Roman Catholic teachings. 

Quote
Can we please get back to the main issue of the discussion: why the Novus Ordo Roman Catholic church could never be "reunited" to the Orthodox Church. I am particularly referring to why the Orthodox Church could never accept the Novus Ordo mass as acceptable for the celebration of the Eucharist.

Let's leave this to the Roman Catholics and worry about ourselves.  There will be reunion when God wills it. 

Logged
Victor
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 59


« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2005, 05:03:38 PM »

From my understanding the Novus Ordo is not in union with the Roman Catholic Church either. Just wanted to clarify that.

~Victor
Logged
Sabbas
Drink from your own wells
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 503

St. Glicherie True Orthodox Church of Romania


« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2005, 11:17:58 PM »

I completely agree that we cannot be both Orthodox and Roman Catholic which is why I wonder why you have such a fascination with the ravings of traditionalist Roman Catholics. When I became a catechumen in the Orthodox Church I quit worrying about these things.

When I chrismated, I renounced (note that renuncation and denuciation are not the same thing) heretical Roman Catholic teachings.

Let's leave this to the Roman Catholics and worry about ourselves. There will be reunion when God wills it.


As I mentioned earlier my sister is in SSPX and  in the course of learning more about it I became fascinated with what Roman Catholicism was like before Vatican II. But I do not consider SSPX catholics arguments as "ravings". But when it comes to www.traditio.com I stated before that I do not put much stock in its polemics and I noticed that one of the photos it has of the Pope has falsely referred to the host he was using as a sugar cookie when in fact it was just a very large host of unleavened bread.

As for renounce and denounce, it is not enough to renounce Roman Catholicism. For example I can be pro-gun control and renounce that position without believing it is evil and reprehensible. Rather it is necessary when becoming Orthodox to denounce, to declare evil and reprehensible, teachings such as Papal Infallibility, created grace, the filioque, etc. Keep in mind I am not talking about denouncing people who are Roman Catholic rather the ideology known as Roman Catholicism.

Also I respect your opinion that we should leave the scrapping of the Novus Ordo to the Roman Catholics but I clearly do not feel this way as I made clear in my first post and I think in this age of the heresy of Modernism and Ecumenism it is something Orthodox have to worry about.

I've seen some of these (from Antiochian books). They are often inaccurate as to what they claim that other denominations teach.

I will have to get a service book when I am at Church, it is AA, and see what the prayers are.

From my understanding the Novus Ordo is not in union with the Roman Catholic Church either. Just wanted to clarify that.

~Victor
I am not sure what you are referring to Victor. What I mean when I say Novus Ordo catholics I am referring to those who use the Novus Ordo Missae http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novus_Ordo_Missae which is the mass used by the Vatican and about 99.7% of catholics, the 0.3% being traditionalists, use the Novus Ordo Missae.
Is there some catholic church calling itself the Novus Ordo church that I do not know about?
Logged

www.hungersite.com  Ãƒâ€šÃ‚  www.freedonation.com you can donate up to 20 times at freedonation.  http://www.pomog.org/ has online 1851 Sir Lancelot C.L. Brenton English translation of Septuagint.http://www.cnrs.ubc.ca/greekbible/ Original Koine Septuagint and New Testament.
Jennifer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America
Posts: 1,154


« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2005, 11:37:25 PM »


As for renounce and denounce, it is not enough to renounce Roman Catholicism. For example I can be pro-gun control and renounce that position without believing it is evil and reprehensible. Rather it is necessary when becoming Orthodox to denounce, to declare evil and reprehensible, teachings such as Papal Infallibility, created grace, the filioque, etc. Keep in mind I am not talking about denouncing people who are Roman Catholic rather the ideology known as Roman Catholicism.


I think it's best if we leave the pronouncements about what is "necessary" to become Orthodox to our priests and bishops.  BTW, I've never heard an actual Orthodox person "denounce" Roman Catholicism as "evil and reprehensible." 

And for the record, the service book says "renounce" not "denounce." 

Logged
Tags: roman catholic ecumenism unity Pope 
Pages: 1 2 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.182 seconds with 72 queries.